Conference mr1pst::music

Based on what you wrote, I'm assuming this is guitar-based chord
nomenclature.  If you were to name the mystery chord on the basis
of its harmonic "effect", I think you'd want to call it a variant
of Ebm (I don't know the nomenclature well enough to supply it here)
because the effect in this sequence is that of an E-flat minor
chord in its first inversion - even though Eb is omitted.  In turn,
as you have implied by the vertical spacing of your chord layouts,
the "Ebminor 1st inv" is an embellishing member of a four-chord sequence
representing the dominant (Bb) of the key of Eb minor.

Low ------------------>  High    =  Chord...

Bb     D      F            Bb       Bb
Ab     D      F     Ab     Bb       Bb7/Ab   ???< Yes
Gb     D      Gb    Ab     Bb       ?????????< Ebm11+7/Gb no fundamental
F      D      F     Ab     Bb       Bb7/F

Eb     Eb     F     Gb     Bb       Ebm9 no 7th

>>Based on what you wrote, I'm assuming this is guitar-based chord
>>nomenclature. 

No, it is not nessecarily guitar-based nomenclature, but I'll need the
names for our guitarist, and I like to get it "harmonically"
correct.

You wondered if the mysterychord is an Ebminor variant. The harmonic
effect to me is different though. It feels more like a subdominant
to the following chord, but that would mean it would be an variant
of F, and that would be the 'between-dominant'... (I don't know what
that is called in English: Say, for example a piece in C major, then the
progression: D major -> G -> C. The F# in the D major gives
a special ring to it). But it sure doesn't sound like a
'between dominant'. The mystery chord is really asking for a progression...
The Ebm you proposed would be the root... 

Really blows my mind!
Thanks for helping me think though!

What would happen if we'd call the preceding Bb7/Ab a superimposed
chord of an Bb+5 on top of an Ab? (In other words an Ab+13 variant) could the
mistery chord then be an Dbsus6? Ab being the dominant to Db, and Bb
being the 6th in Db?

OK ok ok... What's in a name!

Well, I thought about it a bit more and decided that it's probably most
appropriate to call it a Bb dominant 7th with an augmented fifth occuring in the
bass (do guitarists call it Bb augmented with a minor 7th?).  Basically, what
you've got is a Bb harmony with the bass stepping down the Eb minor scale until
it resolves to Eb minor.  This gives the chord its special feel, since the ear
will tend to hear the Gb primarily in its relationship to Bb in an Eb minor
context. The Gb has added impact because it's the note that defines the scale as
minor rather than major.

Funny... How you find an interesting progression and you need some
brain-gymnastics to find out why it sounds the way it does!

I'll go for your Bb7+5/Gb... Written down like that the progression
makes sense in being able to see the walking bassline and the
5th being augmented once.

Thanks alot for your help! I guess my initial guess (as happens so
often) was the best one. But at least it isn't a 'guess' anymore!
It actually looks like I know what I'm doing. :)

thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it!!

Bernd

    Just seeing your note now, while lookiung for something else. havent
    been able to try this out on a guitar or keyboard but just from the
    note spelling, I'd call it Gb9aug5. It's a Gb chord with an added 9th
    and sharped 5th. IN jazz they uisually go for the easiest spelling and
    not the contextual stuff; just because the chord sequence is in a
    particulari key doesnt mean everything has to be spelled in relation to
    that key.
    
    	I really want to hear this thing now!!
    
    
    								--Fred
    

>    I'd call it Gb9aug5. It's a Gb chord with an added 9th
>    and sharped 5th.
    
    Hmmm.... well an "added 9th" isn't the same as a "9th chord".
    
    An "add 9" has no 7th, so it sounds like it might be called:
    
    	"Gb+5 add 9"
    
    	db

    Hi,
    
    I would like to know how to determine the key of a song (by theory
    only).
    Here is a song which follow these chords:
    
    Cmaj7	     C7
    Bla bla bla bla, bla bla bla 
    Cmaj7	     C7
    ............................
    Dm        G      Em7    A
    ............................
    Dm        G      C      G
    ............................
    
    If it's in key of Cmaj7, what is the progression?
    do you call this: I ii V iii VI ii V I V ???
    or              : Imaj7 I7 Imaj7... ii V iii7 VI ii V I V???
    Or something simpliest? (ii-V-I???)
    Now If I want to add a "chorus", and if I start with the iii7 (Em7), how to
    determine what chord to use, without my guitar in hands?
    I'm able to find it myself when I play, but I can't in theory..
    I'm lost with that!!
    
    	Thanks for any help..
    
    	-Fred-
    

    What some people fail to realize is that some (in fact, 
    _many_) songs/pieces don't have a key. In such cases,
    the notion of key is superfluous. Many pop and jazz
    songs are written around modes, which change from chord
    to chord.

    According to Hindemeth, the easiest way to tell the key
    of a song is to look at the final chord. Of course, he
    then goes on to show numerous examples which break the
    rule.
    
    Rule 1: there are no rules.

    -b

    
    	What an answer!! ;-)
    
    	I'll follow this rule when I'll find the last chord!
        8-/
    
    		-Fred-

    re .7
    
    . . . of course, in this example you'd be misled. It looks like the
    tune's in the key of C Major even though there's a G in the final bar
    -- most likely a turnaround, no?
    
    IMO the thing you have to remember about notation is that it's just a
    representation and it's only as good as it is useful. If you're dealing
    with figured bass lines, then the 
    
    	I IV I6 V7 I
              4     
    
    stuff works fine. 
    
    Once you start dealing with tensions, that notation begins to look a
    little cumbersome. I mean, do you get anything out of:
    
    	bv7b5  VII7  iii7b5  VI7  ii7b5  v7  I
    
    or
    
    	Em7b5  A7    Dm7b5   G7   Cm7b5  F7  Bb
    
    which is the cycle of fifths - and just assume that somebody can 
    transpose? So, if you change the key to C, you're going to start
    on an F#m7b5 . . .
    
    You run into difficulty especially in a tune that modulates to
    another key - MANY standards will modulate in bar 5 of the A section
    and then again (often twice) in the bridge. 
    
    In the above example, it's a lot easier to think ii-V in the keys of
    D minor and C minor than bv-VII and iii-VI in Bb. Your mileage may
    vary.
    
    jcf

    re .10
    	
    	Aaargh! I've missed the C after the G in the final bar!
    	ok, I've tried it. 
    	first, I can't see how you find that, the example you given
    	was in the key of C (Bb but I've transposed it) and it works with
        Cmaj7 if I play:
    	
    	F#m7b5-B7-Em7b5-A7-Dm7b5-G7-Cmaj7-C7 
        " " " " " " " " " " " " " "-C-G-C
    	
    	How do you get the bv7b5? is It depend of the tension you want to
    	create or is it just a theory you use?
    	How to use the cycle of fifth?
    	That will help me a lot to figure what chords to use in a
        progression, by logic.(without trying different chords on the guitar
    	or piano)See what I mean? I've some problems to exprim in English
        what I think in french musically..
    
    	Thanks for help,
    		
    
    				-Fred-	

    The "cycle of fifths" refers to the basic chord resolution you find in
    lots of Western music and most pop songs: V-I, sol-doh in the major or
    minor scale: C to F and F to Bb and Bb to Eb and so forth. And you can
    show these V-I relationships in a cycle:
    
    
    
                                   C
                           G   	           F
                    
                      D                           Bb
    
                      A                           Eb
    
                      E                           Ab
    
                           B              Db
    
                                F#(Gb)
    
    The clockwise motion around the cycle is the way we're accustomed to
    hearing chords resolve. Even when they don't move that way - like in
    the last four bars of a blues song where you go V-IV-I or those cloying
    "sus" chords you hear in drippy ballads - it's because the expected
    resolution is delayed for effect.
    

>    The "cycle of fifths" refers to the basic chord resolution you find in
>    lots of Western music and most pop songs: V-I, sol-doh in the major or

    I always thought the cycle of fifths refered to the way most 7-note
    scales found in Western "tonal" music were generated (i.e., scales
    derived by any group of 7 adjacent nodes on the "cycle", a.k.a.,
    "circle").  Actually, a cycle/circle of perfect 4ths will do it too,
    because the distance from the bottom note to the high note of a
    perfect 4th, measured in semitones, is 5.  5, like 7 (perfect 5th) is
    relatively prime to the total number of pitch classes in the system (12),
    and thus starting from a given pitch class and adding multiples of either
    5 or 7 MOD 12 will generate all pitch classes in the system.  Supposedly,
    in some schools of analysis, this explains the strong relationship among
    tonic, subdominant, and dominant in "tonal" music.  Who knows? :-)