Conference mr1pst::music

    
    Is Lenny Kravitz really any different than the rip offs Led Zeppelin
    did... don't get me wrong, I love Led Zep, but all they did was take
    old blues tunes, put a blonde swooner up front, and juiced up the
    guitar a bit.
    
    And listen to just about any sci-fi soundtrack.  I'll be willing to bet
    that most of it is 'borrowed' from Holst's "The Planets" which was
    written (I think) early in this century.  Is _that_ a rip-off too?
    
    Later...
    Steve
    

    Lenny Kravitz is an interesting case.  His vocals remind me of Lennon
    and Costello, his music borrows from Sly and Hendrix as well as
    Beatleish psychedelia.  I like his stuff that I've heard (maybe cause
    his influences are all stuff I like) but not enough to warrant buying
    it yet.
    
    There is always a lot of cloning going on in the music business. Some is
    evident right away, others require some hindsight (I now hear a lot of
    Van Morrison in Bob Seger, probably becuase I now listen to a lot more
    Van than I used to).   It's easier for record companies to sign up
    sound-alikes of someone who's currently hot rather than actually try
    to expose some new and different talent to the public.
    
    Some obvious clones, some going back aways:
    
    Neil Young ---> America
    
    Yes ---> Starcastle
    
    ELP ---> Triumvirat
    
    Stones ---> Chris Jagger
    
    Velvet Underground ---> Dream Syndicate, Galaxie 500, etc., etc.
    
    Moody Blues ---> Barclay James Harvest
    
    Grateful Dead ---> Max Creek
    
    Jim Morrison ---> The Phantom
    
    						Brian
    
    

    How about Billy Joel stealing the melody of This Night note for note from
  Beethoven's Pathetique Piano Sonata, or the introduction to Pressure from 
  a Bach Invention.  That's staling the REAL classics.

 -Evan

Or Emerson Lake and Palmer...  They define classic ripoff

    Even Barry Manilow... don't know the name of the song, but he ripped
    off a Mozart theme and made it into a big hit.
    
    I don't think Emerson, Lake & Palmer could be said to have "ripped off"
    or (definitely not) "plagiarize" for several reasons.
    
    1) In all but one case they gave credit to the original composer.
       That one case was taking Bela Bartok's "Allegro Barbaro" and
       turning into "The Barbarian" from the 1st album.
    
    2) Most of the non-original stuff they do are really "interpretations"
       of a song.  They retain the same title, credit the original
       composer, and generally are the whole song.
    
       That is, they only seldom borrowed a theme and used it in the
       context of an otherwise original work.
    
       To me, it's like saying Mariah Carey "ripped off" or "plagiarized"
       Michael Jackson when she did "I'll Be There".  Just doesn't seem
       an appropriate way to describe that.
    
    

 
    >In all but one case they gave credit to the original composer. That one
    >case was taking Bela Bartok's "Allegro Barbaro" and turning into "The
    >Barbarian" from the 1st album.
   
    Make that two.  The first part of "The Three Fates" is a rip from
    Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor.  I guess that's actually PD,
    though.
    
    							Brian

    re. .1
    
    It grates on me when its so blatantly derivative and when no additional 
    original content has been added. If they added some originality then
    I don't mind "the stealing" so much.
    
    I agree with .2. I find Lenny Kravitz interesting, but not enough to
    buy the CD. He has some okay pop songs but it seems that some of 
    his songs are so derivative I end up being bored after only a couple 
    listenings, I get bored with them. BTW, I don't mean to pick on 
    Lenny Kravitz, I find I have this feeling for several artists.
    
    Curt
    Curt

    .5
    
    Barry Manilow used Chopin's _Prelude in C Minor_ for his song "Could it
    be Magic"...

    Some time last year I was listening to Radio 1 - DJ came on and 
    said "Huh - always suspected the Beatles ripped off their stuff"
    and proceeded to play a *doo wop* version of "She's Leaving Home". 
    Holy s***, I thought...  Turned out to be an album of Sergeant
    Pepper's covers (and not the one with The Pet Shop Boys etc.) 

    re: .8
    
    Yes, it was Chopin.  The theme I had in my head was actually from
    an Yngwie Malmsteen album and was also a "rip off" because it was
    not credited.
    
    Oddly enough, Renaissance also used it in one of their songs.
    
    And to point out one more inaccurate statement I made (ELP only failed
    to give credits on the 1st album), I also think they failed to credit
    Prokofiev for the theme from "Lt Kigi Suite" which Emerson used in
    "I Believe in Father Christmas".
    
    Nah... I take that back, that was more like a "musical quote" which
    I don't think normally is considered to require a credit.
    
    I mean, he also didn't credit "Turkey in the Straw" in "Hoedown" either
    and no one blames him for that.
    
    	db

    Re: .9
    
    That sounds like Big Daddy.  Rhino has issued two albums from this
    comedy group.  They made up some sort of story about how the band was
    trapped somewhere back in 1957, so when they returned to society they
    played everything like 50s rock.  One album is the complete Sgt.
    Pepper's done up that way, the other one has various rock songs.
    
    Remember Rhino also brought us the all-kazoo version of "Whole Lotta
    Love" some years back...
    
    							Brian

    there is/was also a group who did 50's style versions
    of 'modern' songs.
    i have the vinyl album.  the group is called 'godfrey daniel'.
    
    i'll have to drag it out and give it a listen.
    
    willie

	.10

	I almost had a seizure the first time I heard "The Troika Song" 
	from the _Lt.Kije Suite_.  (It was an extra on the _Alexander Nevsky_ 
	CD I bought.)  It took me FOREVER to remember where I'd heard that
	theme before.

    re: .13
    
    I know the feeling.
    
    I still can't quite place that theme that I mentioned Yngwie and 
    Renaissance have used.
    
    And every time I hum it to someone, the reaction is always the same:
    
    "I know that one that's...  hmmm...  damn, I can't remember what that's
    from".
    
    So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I've caused others to suffer
    with me.
    

    re: Lenny Kravitz
    
    Yes, I agree that almost every song reminds of some other artist.  
    Surprised nobody mentioned Stevie Wonder... I think alot of his songs 
    borrow from Stevie... much more than the Hendrix influence, which I
    hear in only a few places.  Unlike some other noters, I'm not disturbed 
    enough to keep me from buying his CDs.
    
    Another band that comes to mind in this department is the Black Crowes.
    I hear heavy Stones and Kinks influence in their music, and a few more
    that I can't think of right now since I haven't listened in a while.  
    Again, doesn't stop me from coughing up the $14.99.
    
    							Marc

    Let's not forget GROOVY KIND OF LOVE and A LOVER'S CONCERTO...now those
    are CLASSICS stolen from CLASSICS!!!!!
    
    
    Chuck
    

    Dan Fogelburg pulled off a double "rippoff" in one song...
    
    Another Auld Lang Syne (I think that's the name of the song...  The hit
    he had several years ago about meeting an old love in the grocery
    store.)
    
    It's got the obvious quote of Auld Lang Syne at the end.  And it also
    has the less obvious quote of the 1812 Overture.  Listen to the
    first line, then play it with more force.
    
    I never would have noticed it, but I saw him in concert once, and he
    introduced the song by saying "I was playing around with the 1812
    overture one day, and came up with this"
    
    

Folgelberg's lastest radio hit, title may be "Rain"??
is a cover as well.


...

>Folgelberg's lastest radio hit, title may be "Rain"??
>is a cover as well.
    
    He does a plain cover of the good old "Rhythm of the Rain",
    ending with a cover of the opening of the Beatles' "Rain".
    Credits given.
    No more stealing, really, than James Taylor's "Handy Man" etc.
    
    H             

    
    ELP borrowed heavily from the classical repertoire and made it their
    own. Dave gives two good uncredited examples with 'The Barbarian'
    (Bartok) and 'Father Christmas' (Prokofiev--and a nice treatment, too,
    I think). Add 'Knife Edge' (derived from Janacek's 'Sinfonietta') in 
    there, too.
    
    The thing that used to get me, though, was on all the Nice releases,
    Emerson always gave credit to the original composer, playing the pieces as
    a rearrangement, i.e. 'America' (Bernstein), 'Karelia Suite'
    (Sibelius), one of the Bach Brandenburg Concertos (almost seamlessly 
    medleyed with Dylan's 'Country Pie'), etc. With ELP, that practice came
    to almost a complete stop, except with blatant things like Mussorgsky's
    'Pictures', Tchaikovsky's 'Nutcracker' ("Nutrocker"). It seemed like
    they'd fail to give original composing credit when they only took the
    complete theme out (i.e. "Barbarian", "Knife Edge", "Christmas"). Where
    they took more than that, they'd be obliged to give credit. 
    
    I remember reading somewhere that they had to go through a bit of
    expense concerning Carl Palmer's 'Tocatta'. It was based heavily upon a
    piece written by Alberto Ginastera, a -living- composer. They had to
    go through Boosey & Hawkes (publisher) and then flew to Argentina to
    personally ask permission from the composer, playing him an advance
    tape of the arrangement. He eventually gave his OK. 
    
    Others, not credited:
    
    The Flock: "Tired of Waiting" (opening violin solo): Saint Saens Violin
    						         Concerto
    
    The opening bars to 'Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin'
    as it appears on 'Absolutely Free' (Zappa), sound like a rhythmically 
    adjusted theme from 'Jupiter' from 'The Planets' (Gustav Holst).
    
    Speaking of Holst, Robert Fripp borrowed pretty heavily from 'Mars'
    for some pieces he wrote as a soundtrack for a crappy movie called 'The
    Bermuda Triangle'.
    
    I can't recall the exact concertos, but it was pointed out to me that 
    Renaissance's pianist used to lift phrases from Rachmaninoff's 
    compositions when he'd do those grandiose solos (from the 'Ashes Are
    Burning' era).
    
    'Joy' by Apollo 100 (1969 ?) was a rework of Bach 'Jesu, Joy of Man's
    Desiring'.
    
    Nice Quotes: On the early Yes release 'Time and a Word', Peter Banks
    nicely slips in fragments from other sources on two of his solos.
    'Another Day' contains a quote from Bach's 'Jesu', and the entire solo
    on 'No Opportunity Necessary, No Experience Needed' is the theme from
    the movie 'The Big Country'. This one actually works quite well.
    
    Peter
    
    PS: And, is it me, or does the underlying riff in 'Live With Me' by the 
    Stones sound a -lot- like 'Rock and Roll Queen' by Mott the Hoople ?  
    
     
    
        

>    I can't recall the exact concertos, but it was pointed out to me that 
>    Renaissance's pianist used to lift phrases from Rachmaninoff's 
>    compositions when he'd do those grandiose solos (from the 'Ashes Are
>    Burning' era).
    
    Also, wasn't the beginning of "Prologue" lifted from a Chopin Etude?
    
    I believe somewhere in here I also mentioned that part of "Mother
    Russia" was a quote but have never been able to remember what it
    was even though I've heard it quoted by other artists as well.

    Re: Mott and Mick
    
    The Stones and Mott seemed to like to raid each other.
    
    Check out how Mott rips "Jumping Jack Flash" to get the end of "Walking
    with a Mountain".  Or how "Jerking Crocus" steals from "Brown Sugar".
    There's probably more good examples.
    
    I always thought "Rock and Roll Queen" was the source for "Bitch",
    myself.
    
    						Brian

    Certainly not "It's Now or Never" as recorded by Elvis Presley.
    Listen to the aria "O Sole Mio!" (I don't know who composed it).