Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Interesting that the Fisher-Price products don't make the recommended
    list in any of the categories....
    
    cj/

    Actually, the only Fisher-Price models that were mentioned were the
    9100 and 9101. At any given time, they were either recalled or under
    investigation.

    Surprised me, too!!
    Norma

    Just an fyi--(I called the number this PM)--
    you need to put 45 cents worth of stamps on your return envelope.

    Does anyone know is there is a difference between the US and UK child
    seat requirements? We brought our Gerry Voyager with us when we came
    over but needed a second seat because we got tired of the constant
    moving from one car to the other. I can't find anything here (UK) that
    defines exactly what was tested/expected/required to make the seat
    acceptable but know that it does meet the requirements here. When we
    get back, I'd like to continue to use the seat because my son really
    likes it (comfort, height, etc) and I really like it because he is
    protected with the entire seat belt (shoulder strap) and it has a very
    high back to prevent whiplash in the event of an accident.
    
    Thanks for any input.
    Andrea

    Andrea
    
    I don't know what the UK carseat regulations are but the car seat will
    have been tested to conform to a particular British Standard. Your UK 
    car seat should have a British Standard (BS) number somewhere on it 
    (or it may be on the box that it came in).  In order to find out what this 
    British Standard means, you need to go to a library that has a good 
    reference section (eg Reading Central Library) and ask to see the relevent
    British Standard.  For some obscure reason you're not allow to photocopy 
    British Standards, but you can copy them out longhand - but it will 
    probably be quite a long and detailed document.
    
    You might also be able to write to the British Standards Institute
    (don't know the address but I think it's in Milton Keynes) to get a 
    copy of the standard.  
    
    Then all you will have to do it to get a copy of the relevent US
    Standard, and compare the two!   
                                               
    Have fun!
    
    Janet
    
    Janet
    

    How old is their data?/When was the newsletter published? 
    
    The reason I ask is that the recommended Century models have been
    superceded: the '570' was replaced by the '580'-series, and the
    1000STE was replaced by the 2000STE and then the 5000STE.
    
    Just curious...
    

    It might also be useful to check with Century - the Boston Globe in its
    weekly list last week, cited Century's recent recall of at least one of
    its STE carseats. I don't recall the specific series numbers.
    

    The cover letter is dated September 1990. Recalls and investigations
    are from 1981 through June 1990. I'd say that was pretty recent.

    By the way, the models you mentioned, the 580 and 2000 series both have
    models in the recall list.

    I'll be glad to answer any specific questions, if they are sent to
    ULTRA::DONAHUE. That way, I can't get in trouble for bad mouthing a
    product in Notes.

    Keep in mind... I'm only here until next Friday, Sept. 14th. Then I'll
    be on maternity leave!!!!!!  Yippee!!!

    Norma

    I read somewhere, after doing a survey of child car seats in Britain,
    that top for safety, comfort and expense were BRITAX.
    
    Barbara

    I swear by the Fisher Price in spite of the recall it had because the
    cushioning under the fabric was not flame RETARDANT.
    
    My 2.5 year old is getting too tall for most car seats so I have to
    switch to a booster. The saftest looking one I found was the Evenflo
    wings. It looked good and sturdy and I liked all the features of being
    about to use the shoulder belt later on, etc except - I took it back
    cause it took about 5 steps to get the child into the seat. 
    
    Besides, I
    plan on keeping my kids in car seats for as long as possible. My 5 year
    old still uses his booster religiosly and can get in and out of his
    Century himself nicely. There was no way he could get himself in and
    out of the Evenflo.
    
    So. Suggestions? Can anyone recommend a good booster, or a car seat
    that will accommodate children till their 17? ;-)
    
    G

re .10  We have a Greco booster for our 3 year old.  The reason I selected
that one is that you fasten the seat belt through the bottom of the seat
to keep it attatched to the car's seat and then the shield actually
opens and shuts - my daughter does it herself - and has it's own seat belt
for the child.  This way you're not constantly having to drag the car 
seatbelt around or over the booster.

I got it at BEST (kind of like Service Merchandise - they have 'em too)

I've been meaning to put this somewhere in this conference but never got around
to it.  Perhaps there should be a topic specific to product problems and/or
product recalls.

-Andy

--------------- Extracted from Consumer Reports, Sept. '90 Issue ---------------

CU finds hazards in two child safety seats

  Consumers Union has found potential safety problems with two popular 
  child safety seats for autos, the Gerry Guardian 643 and the Cosco 
  Deluxe Commuter 086.  We uncovered the hazards in the course of 
  examining a number of safety seats for an upcoming book on baby products.

  We inspected each seat to see if it had obvious flaws or the kind of 
  shortcomings in design or manufacture that have led to Government 
  recalls in the past.  Here's what we found:

  The Gerry Guardian 643 has shoulder straps that may retract too far.  
  The straps are designed to lock quickly in the sudden deceleration of 
  an accident, but they also lock when pulled vigorously.  The harder a 
  parent pulls on the straps to free the child, the more likely they are 
  to stay locked.  As a result, a parent could be unable to quickly remove 
  the child from the Gerry Guardian 643 in an emergency.

  Last year, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration forced 
  a fix of the Fisher Price 9100 child safety seat because of a similar 
  problem.  The company added a stop to the shoulder strap to limit its 
  retraction.

  On the second safety seat, the Cosco Deluxe Commuter 086, the fabric 
  isn't sewn over the foam padding properly, leaving foam exposed on the 
  sides and at the child's crotch.  A child in or near the seat could pull 
  off pieces of the foam, swallow or inhale them, or choke on them.

  In mid-June, we petitioned the NHTSA to recall the Gerry and Cosco 
  safety seats.  The agency has 120 days to respond.  We hope it orders 
  a recall -- soon.

    I'm sure there is a lengthy discussion in one of the archived files
    discussing everyone's personal feelings and experiences with various
    car seats... but not in this one!
    
    Would anyone mind getting into that sort of a discussion in this file
    to update opinions of latest (and not so latest) car seats.  I'm
    about ready to move mine little one from the infant seat to the
    regular car seat.  It's been 6 years since my last child and I would
    really appreciate as many opinions as I can get.
    
    Believe it or not, I did a dir/search in consumers and here, and I
    haven't found that sort of note.
    
    Thanks ahead for your input...
    
    jacki
    

    To .11
    
    What was the model number of the Graco booster seat you described?
    
    Thanks,
    Anne

Re .14, the seat is actually a Gerry, not Greco, sorry!  It's called
the "Double-Guard Auto Booster Seat".  Something I forgot was that
you can change it to open from left or right, and when the child
gets bigger, you take the shield part off and use the  bottom with
a lap  belt.  Both the BEST and Service Merchandise catalogs have
them.

Liz

    My 8-month old son has finally outgrown his infant carrier carseat, and
    I've been looking around for a full-size version.  So far I think I like
    the Century 3000 the best.  Does anybody have any recommendations?  What
    are the positives and negatives of each?  Where can I get the best
    price?   
    
    Thanks for your advice.
    
    						Nancy

	Check out these notes in Parenting_V2 (also on MRDATA).

	2146
	2272
	1882
	1825
	1420
	1095
	1087
	 147

	We have a Century 3000 STE which we like very much.  (And if you can 
stand facing 1/2 a sugar cookies's worth of crumbs your welcome to take a 
look at it sometime... :-)

Tracey

    My son Matthew is outgrowing his infant seat and I'm in the
    process of looking for a toddler car seat.  I've read the 
    other carseat notes and found them out of date and would like
    to bring this question up again because of all the recalls and
    what not.  What type of carseat would you recommend?  Which one
    do you have and what are the pro's and con's.  I've seen two
    types, one with just a plastic T shape that snaps between the
    legs with shoulder straps and the other that straps the baby in
    between the legs with shoulder straps but also has a padded bar
    that has to go over the babies head.  Which is the saftest? 
    The other concern would be comfort, also.  Would like to hear
    your opinions.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    Julie 

    Julie:
    
    If I were to do it "all over again", my first priority in choosing a
    carseat would be:
    
    	how quickly can I get my child OUT OF IT!!  ... while
        making sure my child didn't find it equally as easy to
    	exit on his/her own accord.
    
    We had the Century infant carrier and absolutely loved it.  My daughter
    is a "lighweight" and was 13 months old before she hit the 20# limit
    (about the same time she figured out how to wiggle out from under the
    cross-straps!!).
    
    Then we upgraded her to the Century 5000 carseat.  It's a wonderful,
    overstuffed, comfty, heavy. carseat -- and a bear for me to get her 
    out of!  God had best be with me if we are ever in a serious accident 
    where it's critical that we get her out of her carseat FAST.  Sure won't
    happen with this Century 5000!!! 
    
    I believe all carseats meet "regulated" safety standards ... however,
    some "other" considerations are:
    	.  size (does it fit YOUR CAR seat(s)!)
    	.  size (will my kid outgrow it before the age of 1)
    	.  comfort (padding, exposed metal gets hot!, etc.)
    	.  type of restraint (straps only vs. straps and cross-bar)
    	.  price
    	.  ability to clean
    	.  easy to use, yet child can't "escape"
    
    Most of my friends have the Ultra (about $65 - often "on sale" for
    $55'ish at the various department stores).  I've also heard people like
    the Fisher Price carseat.
    
    Just my 2 cents!
    
    Dottie
    

    
    What my husband and I did when Spencer was ready for another car seat,
    we went to Child World (it had a big selection) and we took all the
    floor models and put Spencer in them, opened them, closed them, let him
    sit in them etc.  We chose the Graco. It has a padded 'bar' in front,
    but it also acts like a little shelf/table for him so he can rest
    books, toys etc on it.  
    
    elizabeth
    z

    We have the Graco too, and the only drawback seems to be that as he
    gets older, his head definitely rubs against that padded bar as we
    lower it to fasten.  His winter hat is often askew after getting him
    settled!
    

    We got the Fisher Price for one car and the Century 2000 for the other. 
    Both have the chest piece and not the bar.
    
    We decided to get them because we didn't want Gina to feel too
    confined.  She's a real mover and we take frequent 6 hour car trips.  
    
    The Fisher Price is nice because the straps move freely when you put
    the child in.  So, it glides over her head.  But, it has been recalled
    in the past for this very feature.  The child is supposed to be 20
    pounds before you move it to the forward facing position.
    
    The Century has two positions for the strap to be buckled into.  THat's
    nice when the child is smaller.  It also allows you to move the child
    to the forward facing position when the child reaches 18 pounds.  And
    it is quite easy to move the straps.  (Not like the Century Infant
    Carrier, which is the only thing we disliked about it.)
    
    The best advice is to go and test them yourself.  It seems to work the
    best.
    
    judy

    We have the Ultra with the "chest piece".  The strap feeds through the
    back of the carseat (above the child's shoulders) and comes out the
    front of the carseat between the base and the seat of the carseat.
    If the strap gets folded near the child's shoulders, it's nearly 
    impossible to pull it tight.
    
    So, if we were to do it again, we would probably buy a seat with the
    bar that comes down.
    
    Just something else to think about !
    
    - Terry
    
    
    
    

    We have 2 of the Graco ones.  They have the 5-point harness, and then
    an optional padded bar.  They suggest that the bar may cause additional
    injury (from the kid slamming into it) in certain accidents, so we've
    opted to keep the bars off.  Swear by BOTH of them.  The kids find them
    comfy too.
    We also have a Coleco one, which is on its third year, used only by the
    babysitter when she goes out, and the covering is all ripped/falling
    apart.  Guess you get what you pay for!!
    
    Only major drawback on the Graco - the upholstery doesn't come off, and 
    we let the kids eat/drink in the car, so they're pretty scrungy - but
    they AREN'T worn.  Get a car seat cover if you get one.  Otherwise, I
    drag them outside a few times a year and a hot soapy bucket of water,
    sponge and scrubbrush takes care of most of it!
    
    We leaned away from the type with the 'chest piece' because we'd heard
    basically the same thing as with the bar - in some accidents it can do
    more harm than a belt alone.
    
    DON'T get the velour-like stuff!
    

    We have two FP car seats ... picked up one for $10 at a garage sale
    (and called FP to get all the recall options for it), and bought the
    other one new.  We've been quite happy with them.  The covers come off
    and launder beautifully, so there's no need to buy a separate car seat
    cover.  We can get Michael in and out quickly and easily, and he seems
    to be perfectly comfortable in them.
    
    BTW, Consumer Reports says that the 5-point harness is actually safer
    than the 3-point.  But they go on to say that the 5-point harness is
    such a pain to fasten and unfasten that some parents might be tempted
    not to use it at all when running lots of errands, while the 3-point
    one is easy to use.  We rented one with a 5-point harness twice, and we
    thought it was a real pain in the neck.
    
    Steve

    I have a friend in the baby goods business,and she recommended the 
    renolux turn-a-tot. It's the one that swivels. The swivel may be a
    gimmick, but I like it. It's a 5-point restraint.The only time I
    have trouble with it is on very cold mornings and your fingers have
    to do a lot of work. The seat also reclines - that was useful when
    my son was younger.

<    BTW, Consumer Reports says that the 5-point harness is actually safer
<    than the 3-point.  But they go on to say that the 5-point harness is
<    such a pain to fasten and unfasten that some parents might be tempted
<    not to use it at all when running lots of errands, while the 3-point
<    one is easy to use.  We rented one with a 5-point harness twice, and we
<    thought it was a real pain in the neck.
    
Because of Consumer Reports' recommendation, we bought the GT2000 (Strolee,
I think.  I also think someone else makes it now).  It has the 5 point, and
something else I really liked: it was *totally* covered in fabric, so there
was much less chance of a burnt arm from touching hot plastic sides.

It definately has been a pain, but mostly in the beginning.  Overall, I like
it because of the fabric and because of the safety.  The one change we will
make with the new baby, is that we will buy/borrow an infant seat that
comes out of the car.  When Evan was a newborn, I wanted to do garage saling,
and since I was stopping every few blocks, and it was a hot day, I could
not leave him in the car even for a moment or two.  It was really a hassle
having to unbuckle him at each stop.  Now with the new infant seats, I can
just unsnap the seat and bring the baby with me, without waking him/her if
the baby is asleep.

Oh, one other thing we noticed.  Many of the car seats for all size babies
were *not* appropriate for newborns.  They had a shield or other piece of 
plastic that would fit fine in front of a toddler or older baby, but which
bopped a newborn right in the nose!

        Carol

    A quick question on the toddler seats, of the toddler seats only one or
    two keep the car belt permanently fastened, usually under the seat, and
    the seat itself has a belt for the child.
    
    Has anyone had experience with these types, and more important which
    brand(s) were they?  Any Consumer's reports etc on these.
    
    Just as a point of info, the US Dept of Transportation will send you a
    (free I believe) package with descriptions of car seats, from infant to
    toddler, just for the price of the phone call to Washington DC.  If you
    do this be warned though the turn around time is quite slow, several
    weeks I recall.
    
    Lyn

I am interested in what Lyn is asking, too, and have an additional question.
Now that Evan is 3, he thinks he is too big for the (large) carseat that
we have (*sigh).  Shellie told him that we would look at booster chairs
for him, but I'm skeptical.  I want to ask, "Are they safe enough?" but
I guess nothing will ever be safe *enough* for me.  :-}  Are they close
to being as safe as a regular toddler carseat?

         Carol

    We had the opposite problem with Brian.  He is almost 4 and still loves
    to ride in his car seat since he can see out the windows better. 
    Unfortunately, he's nearing the 40 pound limit and we can't find a
    regular car seat that goes higher, so its time for a booster seat.
    
    I went out and bought one for him last week.  I got a model made by
    Evenflo.  The things I was looking for were
    	- the car's seatbelt was permanently put through the bottom
    	- there was something to go between his legs so that he wouldn't
          slide through in a crash
        - he could get in and out of it by himself.
    
    I only partially succeeded in getting these things.  It can be strapped
    permanently in until he is 44 inches tall.  There is a padded bar in
    front of the child.  After 44 inches, the car's seatbelt is supposed to
    go around the booster seat and the padded bar.  This can be done with
    just a lap belt, but can also be done with a lap/shoulder combination.
    The way the shoulder part is hooked around the seat makes it so that it
    doesn't cut across the child's neck.
    
    The padded bar is divided in the middle, and each side springs up when
    not held down.  To close it, you lower one side which has a slit in it,
    lower the other side with a metal tab of a buckle (which goes through 
    the slit), and then hook the buckle which is on a belt coming from the
    bottom of the seat.  It looks something like this head-on:
    
                | |-      | |
                | |       | |        -------------
                \ /       \ /        \-----|-----/
                /           \ buckle /    |-|    \
                |           |  and   |     |     |
                |     | <---|--belt--|---> |     |
                -------------        -------------
                    open                 closed
    
    This is pretty crude, but I hope you get the idea.  
    
    As far a criteria number 3 goes, Brian can sometimes do it by himself,
    but its not easy.  Opening is not too hard (althought the buckle is
    stiff), but to close it, he has to put down the sides, hold them down
    with his chin, and use both hands to try to find the buckle, line it up
    with the tab, and push it up 'til it clicks.  Sometimes he likes going
    through all this, but most of the time he closes the sides and someone
    else does the buckling.
    
    The only thing that's been a drawback so far is that when he falls
    asleep, his head flops around.  With the full car seat, it would rest
    against the side and pretty much stay there.
    
                                                  Tracy
    

    My concern is that they CAN get out by themselves, like at inopportune
    times. That can be the major difference between a booster seat and
    a car seat. The other consideration is long trips, where with the car
    seat they have something to lean against (the side) to sleep; with a
    booster seat they don't, unless you keep a pillow there.
    
    

    
    For what its worth, Lynn, Right Start sells a head/side rest pillow
    for use with booster seats.    I noticed it in the last catalog I
    received but don't have any particulars (i.e. price, construction,
    etc) since I'm not in the market for one (yet!) so didn't read the
    description.
    
    Carol

    There is also a new booster seat on the market here in the greater
    Maynard area that is chair-shaped and goes all the way up behind the
    child's back and head. It's called the Kangaroo seat and the company
    is Downunder Designs Inc, Concord MA. 
    
    I have a newspaper clipping with a picture of the seat, and it looks 
    like a sleeping child's head would be supported pretty well. The
    article says these seats are available at the Baby Place in Natick, MA
    as well as some other stores in Concord, etc. It's expensive, $69.95,
    but supposed to last til kids are really big, like 8 years old.
    
    Lucy

    I'm a little confused....so what else is new after all it is Friday
    late in the afternoon!!  RE: .29, Carol you mention Toddler Seat, then 
    go on to mention Booster Chairs, where are you drawing the difference. 
    Are you calling the seat that's good up to 40 pounds a Toddler seat,
    and the Toddler booster Seat a booster Chair?
    
    Anyway, from where I see it, and that's actually several different
    views; mother, EMT, graduate of an emergency reaction driver training
    course, any seat with a well padded cushion in front would be my first
    and most important criteria for choosing a seat.  Personally I wish
    someone would design a better "older child seat" with more neck support
    built in.  Maybe I will pursue the one that was mentioned from
    DownUnder, or the pillow for the seat.
    
    Lyn
    

<    I'm a little confused....so what else is new after all it is Friday
<    late in the afternoon!!  RE: .29, Carol you mention Toddler Seat, then 
<    go on to mention Booster Chairs, where are you drawing the difference. 
<    Are you calling the seat that's good up to 40 pounds a Toddler seat,
<    and the Toddler booster Seat a booster Chair?
    
I'm sorry, Lyn.  *I've* been confused what exactly to call them.  Evan is in
a seat that is for infants through toddlers, up to 40 pounds.  Lately he 
says that this seat is too small for him (Ha!  Hardly!  He is only about
27 pounds!).  Now he is a "big boy", you see, having just turned 3.  

Shellie says that the problem is that he saw his friend Darcy in a booster
chair (or whatever you call it).  I didn't see it, but Shellie told Evan
that we would look into getting him one.  I, on the other hand, would like
to keep him as safe as possible, and have thought that the GT2000 car seat
that we have him in is safer than a "booster" or any other support for an
older child. 

So, does that help you understand better what I meant?  Let me know if I
need to phrase this better, and thank you for your help.

     Carol

Carol, et al, we have of the booster seats made by Gerry.  Got one at
Service Merchandise, the other at Best.  Target also has them.  It looks
very similar to the "drawing" a few replies back except that it opens
from the side, rather than the center.  It can be changed to open from
either side.  Once the kiddo gets too big, you can remove the shield
and use it just as a booster to sit them higher.

I like it because it does fasten "permanently" to the seat.  Yes,
Kathryne can open it herself, she also knows she cannot do so until
we park.  

Liz

    I JUST BOUGHT A CAR SEAT BY RENOLUX ITS CALLED TURN-A-TOT.  I BELIEVE
    ITS EUROPEAN MADE.  IT WAS A GOOD SEAT FOR ME BECAUSE MY SON IS TWO BUT
    VERY LARGE AND BROAD FOR HIS AGE.  I ASSUME IT'S A GOOD SEAT BUT NOW
    I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED, HAS ANYONE HEARD ANYTHING ON IT?

    re .37 
    >I JUST BOUGHT A CAR SEAT BY RENOLUX ITS CALLED TURN-A-TOT.  I BELIEVE
    >ITS EUROPEAN MADE.  IT WAS A GOOD SEAT FOR ME BECAUSE MY SON IS TWO BUT
    >VERY LARGE AND BROAD FOR HIS AGE.  I ASSUME IT'S A GOOD SEAT BUT NOW
    >I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED, HAS ANYONE HEARD ANYTHING ON IT?
    
    I have a friend that owns a toy and baby goods store recommended this 
    seat to me. Her opinion is that is was very safe because of the 5-point
    restraint. I like it because it's less strain on my back. 
    Sue

    You found a car seat with a five-point harness?????
    Congratulations!  I looked all over Nashua and finally had to
    settle for the bleeping three-point kind again.  
    
    --bonnie

    	
    Has anyone out there ever had BOTH a 3 point harness, and a "bar" type
    carseat???  Or used both???  Which did you find easier to use???? 
    Which did the baby like more??   I'm having conflicting advice from
    friends/family as to which type to buy.
    
    Also.. How necessary did you find an "infant" car seat, if you had one
    of the ones that went from infant to 40lbs..???? Is it worth the
    investment??
    
    Curious people want to know...
    
    Chris
    
    

    I can comment on the infant car seat...
    
    I think it depends on your infant.  I have a very small child.  She was
    in the infant car seat until she was over 8 months old.  My sister, on
    the other hand, felt the seat was a waste when her son outgrew it at
    only a few months.
    
    If you have an idea about the size of your baby, it might make the
    decision a little easier.
    
    I did like the fact that we could bring the infant seat in the house so
    it wasn't too hot/cold (depending on the season) for the baby.  You
    can't do that with the other seats.  It was also very nice to use when
    I was grocery shopping when I would prop it up on the cart.
    
    judy

We used an infant seat too, which Elise can still use (at 15-1/5 pounds).  We
recently bought a convertible carseat which is permantly installed in my car.
My husband still uses the infant seat in his car.

One thing about the infant seat, compared to the convertible.  Babies often
fall asleep in the car, so you can bring them into the house still asleep.
Desperate parents (who, me?) have been known to drive the baby around until 
she falls asleep, then put the seat right into the crib.

It can also be used as a swing in other "desperate" circumstances.  But this
requires a father with infinite strength and patience.  (Strength and patience
seem to be directly proportional to the amount of desperation :-)).

Don't let me scare you - I'm only half serious.

    
    re: .42    Gee, me wonders if Elise had colic?
    
    How would I know :-)  :-) :-)  ?
    
    carol

Gee, how could you guess?  Yes, Elise was colicky for about 6 weeks.  I
often said that I didn't need Nautilis for my arms anymore - bouncing her in
mid-air for hours was better than any machine.

But, like everyone else, we survived it and now she's a happy, wonderful, very
fun, social 6 month old.

    I just got me new issue of Good Housekeeping last night and noticed
    an interesting piece about car seats....   {This is not an ad for 
    the product, nor do I gain anything from this - I just thought it 
    would be interesting to those folks who might be in the market for 
    a new vehicle soon.}
    
    Beginning next year, Chrysler will be offering a new type of seat
    as an option on their mini-vans - it has a built in car seat.   When
    not in use as a car seat, it folds back up and is a regular seat.
    The seat meets all necessary regulations - just like the ones you 
    have to strap in yourself.
    
    You know those arm rests that pull down out of the back of the seat
    when you want them, and can fold back in when you don't?  That's
    what it looks like from the picture (obviously there's more to it
    than that) complete with straps and buckles.  The article says this
    option will add about $200 to the price of the vehicle.
    
    Conni
    

    We used an infant seat for Michelle until she was 7 months old.  I really
    liked the fact that we could carry her around in the seat during shopping
    expeditions without having to strap her in and out of the car repeatedly.

    Nowadays we have two 'regular' car-seats.  The Century bar-design is in
    my car, and the Fisher Price yoke-type (it has a Y shaped plastic piece,
    is that a three-point harness?) is in my husband's car.  The bar-design
    car seat 'looks' more sturdy, but Michelle definitely prefers the yoke-type
    since she is less confined and can see better.

    Just for the record the DOT (Federal Dept of Transportation) recomends
    a *5* point restraint.  Of course 3 is also acceptable and safe.
    
    In our case AJ was brought home at just 5 pounds, we never used an
    infant seat, we had a 5 point restraint, bought one of the reversable
    terry seat covers at child world, which has a little padding in
    themiddle of it, and used one of those head holder things that you put
    in the car seat to keep the infant's head upright.  (we also used this
    thing in his Kangarockaroo seat for the same purpose)  His car seat has
    a large padded piece that swings down and he loves using this (still)
    as a place to play, draw, and use a a racetrack for his cars and
    trucks.
    
    Between the seatcover and the headholder, as small as he was, he didn't
    have a lot of room to bounce around.  Of course he was a winter baby,
    and frequently we'd put him in and wrap a blanket over his feet, lap
    and sides, which took up some of the extra room.
    
    RE .47, today he is 40+ pounds, 41inches and still fits comfortably ih
    this original seat.  I guess we use it, in my car only, just because it
    makes *me* feel secure.  If we were to have an accident he's still
    securely strapped in, with a large padded piece in front of him for
    protection.  (that's my feeling both as a parent and an EMT/rescue
    squad member).
    
    Lyn

    When we were looking for a car seat for David 20 months ago, no
    store in Nashua had a seat with a 5-point harness in stock, and
    several stores told us that "nobody makes them any more because
    they're too much nuisance."
    
    --bonnie

    We've had 3 seats with the 5-point harness (and 2 of them were
    purchased in Nashua ... hmmmm).  Two have optional front padded bars. 
    It was actually in the owners manual that it was determined that the
    front padded bar could cause MORE injury in a front/rear end collision
    than just the belts alone, so we never used them.  I suppose the kids
    would've loved them to have a place to play, but the possibility of
    increased injury wasn't worth it.  Plus, they're hotter in the summer.
    
    Child World and JC Penny's had 5-pts 3 yrs ago .... but that was 3 yrs
    ago! (-:
    
    We never had an infant seat - but I wish I had!  The boys always fell
    asleep in the car, 5 mins from home, thus took a lot of 5 min naps! 
    Plus they were little (4lb 12 oz and 5lb 10 oz) when they came home, so
    the regular car seats were MUCH too big and too verticle for them.  Can
    you say "SLUMP" ?
    
    If I had it to do all over again, I'd start out with the infant seat
    FOR SURE!
    
    Patty

    I used a 5-point harness with my first, and wish I had kept it. 
    But no, I generously gave it to a friend, figuring that if I ever
    had more kids I could buy a new one :)
    
    Child World in Nashua was the place that told me (1.8 years ago
    and 8 years ago) nobody made 5-point harnesses any more.  They
    certainly didn't have any in their display.  The clerk I talked to
    didn't even know what I meant, and he called the floor manager,
    who told me nobody made them.  (I didn't check Penny's because I
    don't shop at the mall or the DW highway strip if I can find an
    acceptable product in the other parts of town.)
    
    --bonnie

    I was in Toys R Us the other night and happened to be near the car
    seats.  They carry 2 Renolux (?) brand 5-point seats.  Of course at 
    $100.+ a piece, they BETTER be good!  I think they can handle quite a
    LARGE kid though, if I remember the commercial correctly.
    
    The ones that we have are 2 Strollees(~$70./ea) and 1 Cosco(~$35.).  The 
    Cosco we got at JC Penny, so it might even be worth checking the
    catalog if you're really looking for a 5pt.  And after looking at the
    3pt more closely, I wouldn't dream of anything else ...!
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty
    

I am looking to get a second car seat for my husbands car.  I'm getting tired of
lugging the one car seat we have in and out of the car because now I drop my
daughter off at day care and my husband picks her up.  I usually forget and have
to turn around to drop off the seat!

I wanted some advice on what to look for when looking at a used car seat.  I am
planning on looking at one tonight from the Want-Ads, and I know it is 6 years 
old.

What kind of things might wear out after a while?  (Megan is only 6 months old
so I don't have alot of experience with wearing things out yet! Except my feet!)
How do I know if there has been a recall on it?  And probably some other things
I haven't thought of!

Thanks in advance!!

W-

    
    I don't think the age of the piece tells you anything about the
    condition. It does tell you if it conform to current regulations.
    I think a 6 yr old seat will. As far as wearing out, I have a 6 year
    old car seat, been thru one kid only, looks and works like new.
    I would look for working mechanisms, eg. does the seat belt work
    smoothly? Does the seat look safe? eg. does the seat belt look frayed?
    I would not buy a 6 yr old vinyl covered seat, since vinyl gets
    brittle after a while. 
    Look for a used Fisher Price if possible since they haven't changed
    their design in the last 6-7 years. If you need spare parts, you'll
    probably find them.
    
    Eva

    
    I have to add my .02 here because I'm so outspoken on the subject.
    
    I've decided that car seats are designed to last through 1.5 children.
    My children are 5.5 years apart and I stored all of #1's baby equipment
    for #2.  Saving the carseats was a waste of time and space. Baby #1 had
    a hefty commute every day, about 30 miles each way. Baby #2 commutes
    about 1.5 miles each way.  
    
    1. Second use of the infant car seat meant  mostly duct tape and literally
       a coat hanger by 4 months, we ended up buying a new one. Like Eva said,
       the vinyl self destructed.  Baby #1 outgrew the infant car seat at 5 
       months, Baby #2 outgrew it at 13 months. Also, the engineering of infant
       car seats had progressed rapidly in 5 years - handles, rockers, grocery
       cart clips, sunshades, etc.
    
    2. We had 3 forward facing seats that we collected and stored between
       Kid #1 and Kid #2, we replaced all of them!  
    
       The main one was made by Kantwet [bought out by someone else] called
       a One-Step [I think]. It was brown plastic and with a shield which
       flipped back for entry/rentry. The spring on the shield broke, the vinyl
       self-destructed and the metal frame rusted. The brown plastic cover
       required another cloth cover because it was ALWAYS too hot or too
       cold to put next to a child's skin.
    
       One of the secondary seats was a Gerry, it was light beige with a
       blue foam-cloth cover and a retractable 3 point harness.  This
       seat was not used heavily but became almost impossible to latch
       after a few spills of liquid into the latching mechanism.  Also,
       the rectracting mechanism was scary [I assume its been recalled]
       because it could retract suddenly and almost strangle the occupant.
       We spent several anxious moments extracting our child.
    
       The remaining one had a 5 point harness and no spring on the shield,
       it required at least 7 hands to insert a wiggling child. This seat
       was in the caregivers car and really wasn't used much. It was so 
       difficult/complicated to use, that it was often used incorrectly.
       So bad we tossed it.
    
    Conclusion:  Look for a simple, newer, not vinyl, not recalled, easily
    cleaned seat that probably won't be around for the next child.
    
    Rochelle
    The conclusion to this saga is .....        
         

    Crossposted with permission from Carbuffs ...
    
    There are 2 changes from the original where it could have been
    deemed to violate p&p; these are marked in *[]*.  The concern
    of the original noter however reamins, in spite of the removed
    text.
    
             <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 91.642                   Caravan/Voyager Note                    642 of 643
USPB16::ACONEY                                       36 lines   5-NOV-1991 13:54
                   -< New Chrysler Kiddie Seats are Killers >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a good chance to study Chrysler's new integrated kiddie seats last night
at the car show.  My vote is an absolute NO!  I hate them.

My daughter is 19 months old and loves gettng into her Fisher Price car seat.
At the show, when she saw the display of the new seats, she was eager to climb
into them.  After a little convincing the salesman reluctantly agreed. 

First complaint, the seat is built into a regular minivan center seat, making
both the regular seat and the kiddie seat into a compromise of comfort and
durability.  I doubt the kiddie seat is going to be able to take day-in,
day-out toddler use.  It might be ok for occasional use as in a grandparents'
car, but not in a Kinderhauler.  But, that's not why I hate this seat. 

Second complaint, there are three separate buckles to get the harness around
the kid.  Once she's in, it is secure, but you need to snap one Fastex buckle
across her chest (and my daughter already knows how to release Fastex buckles)
and then attach each of the shoulder straps into a two-part buckle between her
legs.  With a normal, wringling kid, I'll bet a lot of people are going to give
up on those little between the legs buckles and rely just on the chest strap- a
bad choice caused by a bad design.  But, that's not why I hate this seat. 

Third complaint, and the clincher, the seat folds out of the regular seat from
the top and exposes two huge, steel hinges that are on either side of the kid's
head.  On the Fisher Price seat and most others, there are big, padded wings on
the top to protect the kid's head from side-to- side whiplash, but instead the
Chrysler seat has these hard steel hinges covered by a mere 1/8" of foam.   It
is *[ very disturbing that Chrysler built ]* such an obviously
dangerous "child-protective" device and that's why I hate this kiddie seat. 

I'm afraid that all across America, trusting parents are going proudly walk out
of their Chrysler dealership and strap their kids into these things.  A lot of
those kids are going to get head injuries and brain damage, not just in
crashes, but even in routine traffic manuevers. 

I like the minivan, but I HATE those new baby seats.  *[text removed]*

    

    re -.1, I have not seen the van in person, but have seen the
    advertisement on TV.  My first impression of the child in seat was that
    it looked extremely huge for the toddler used as a model, let alone a
    baby.  And I too had the gut feeling that it just wasn't designed
    right, too much room for a kid to move around within. (no I'm not an 
    engineer, I have trouble with more than two moving parts! :-)!! )
    
    I thought it was an "Option", but it sounds like it's there, like it or
    not.
    
    Have you considered posting your concerns in the Fire_Rescue_EMS
    conference, and let the "pros" who do extrication and rescue voice an
    opinion.  My feeling is that the car conference won't give much of an
    "expert" opinion, safetywise. 
    
    Lyn(the EMT and MOM!)
    

I believe it *is* an option, and a rather expensive one at that.  Could
someone explain what they claim to be the advantages of a built-in seat?
I haven't seen the ads.

    I wonder if a call to the DOT (dept of Transportation) or NTSB (nat'l
    traffic safety board) wouldn't be in order.  I think they would be able
    to tell us if these vehicle have been either tested, or proposed for
    testing, and what results are available.
    
    I would tend to believe the dealer's pitch would be rather slanted, to
    make you believe this product is the best thing since sliced bread.
    
    If the option is expensive, (and I know dealer options are, since my
    car can only use car top carriers sold exclusively by Pontiac-utility
    and ski/sport) why bother?  After all if you buy the van when the child 
    is a year or less, and keep it through the loan period, say 4 or 5 years,
    that child will outgrow the option long before it's paid for, right?
    
    Lyn

    I think their idea was that there is the convenience of not having
    to drag the car seat in and out when you want to make room for adults.
    
    I also got a negative feeling when I saw the commerical. 
    
    I seem to rememeber that this option was somewhat OVER $200/seat. 
    
    Monica
    
    

    
    Last night I was just checking over some of the car seats available.
    
    I saw 1 I liked but would like to get a feel from other people who
    might have already used this.  It was the Century 5000.  It has
    side panels you can attach (w/velcro) for infants.  It also has
    a level at the bottom that raises and lowers the seat, depending
    on kid size...does it really work?  The seat overall just looked
    small and I wonder if a bigger toddler (wide & tall) would fit
    comfortably.....3 point harness.  Can't seem to find 5-point
    in the Atlanta area...price: $100.  Toys-R-Us
    
    There was another one that I liked because it seemed wider but it
    didn't have the level at the bottom to raise & lower but everything
    else seemed the same...it was an Even Flo (can't remember exactly
    which one) and it was also $100.
    
    There are so many to pick from and if it wasn't for this note, I
    wouldn' know a thing about these things....8*)
    
    New ones are made every year and the old notes become outdated
    so quickly...so if anyone has any '91-'92 recommendations on models
    I'd appreciate it....
    
    Thanks, Kristen
    
    

    fyi: I saw in this month's consumer reports that there will be a
    report on child safety seats in next month's issue.

    
    	I have the Century 5000.  The panels were fairly useless for
    an infant.  We wound up borrowing an infant carseat that was
    detachable.  Allison (9 months)is now in the Century 5000.  It is ok.  
    It's safe but a pain to unhook.  Also, the bar that comes down
    is not adjustable.  The seat belt is easily adjustable but first you
    have to get the bar over the baby's head.  With the winter coat
    on, it's more difficult.
    
    The Century 3000 was cheaper and extra padding,etc. for the 5000 is
    not worth the extra money.  

    Looking for a recommendation for a booster seat which uses shoulder
    belts. My car does not have lap belts, and the sheer number of models
    confuses me.  David is too small for one yet, but I want to be prepared
    when they go on sale. 
    Sarah 

    
    The Jan 1992 issue of Consumer Reports contains a full report on car
    seats.  It should be quite useful if you are in the market for one.
    
    Pam
    

    
    	I'm expecting my 2nd child in early June, and wanted some 
    	advice on Infant car seats.  I'm interested in getting the
    	Fisher Price (I believe that's the name).  It's the one that
    	has the hood to block out the sun and can fit into shopping
    	carriages easily.  I had the Century (old model) for my
    	first, it had the handle and base, but I found it very heavy to 
    	carry (it was borrowed).  I know the Fisher Price doesn't have
    	the base.  Is this an advantage?  Any suggestions on what you've 
    	used, and what you liked?
    
    	Thanks for you help,
    
    	Ellen

    Ellen, and others....
    
    IMO, save your money on the *infant* seats.  I heard on the radio that
    UMass Medical Center has a clinic in Webster.  They have a "limited
    number" of infant as well as "some" child car seats available for loan.
    I seem to remember the fee being only a dollar or two a month. (how
    many months would you really need an infant seat anyway?)  I didn't
    take note of the phone number, since it didn't really apply to me, but
    I'm sure if you call information they can give you a number.  I seem to
    think the main campus in Worcester may have a similar deal as well
    since they have models of the two seats in the emergency room on
    display. (maybe they're trying to tell us something in a subtle way?)
    The Worcester main number is (508)856-0011.  Let it ring, the
    switchboard seems extremely slow to answer generally.
    
    Lyn
    

Hi Ellen,

We used the Century 590.  We *really* liked the fact that we could carry 
the baby around in it, using the handle.  We used the seat to feed him in
to, until he could use the highchair.  He slept so often in the car, I
would have hated having to wake him everytime we needed to remove him
from the car.  

It didn't come with a hood, but we
were able to order one from Century.  Charlie is a big boy, and can just barely 
it now (at 6 months).  Even though he fits, it is too heavy to carry.
I expect most babies can use it longer.
Also the century fits on grocery carts (I imagine others do too).

One thing that our friends did, was get a Century, and a light stroller - 
they pop the carseat right on top of the stroller.  Makes it easier to 
deal with (don't have to carry it), and it's a better fitting seat.
We did that a few times with our stroller and carseat too.

Hope all is going well with you!
Rachel

We bought a Century "590" infant carrier/carseat just before Juli was born
... and it paid for itself 10X over!  It was wonderfully easy to move her
about (house -> car -> bank -> grocery store -> home again ...) and NEVER
waken her!  She slept many times (in the carrier) on our kitchen floor,
inside the crib, on the deck ... have baby will travel!

Juli was "petite" (6 lb. 2 oz.) and didn't hit 20 pounds (maximum weight)
until 18-20 months of age, so she got too long for it before she got too
large for it.  But we sure got our money's worth out of it ... and passed
it along to a friend for his newborn.

Caldor's has the Model 590 on sale this week ($38'ish), for those who are
interested.

Dottie

PS:  Many grocery stores now have "built in" carriers attached to the
     grocery carts (however, it was neat to just snap the baby in and out
     of the car and not waken her).  The "590" only fits in the basket of the
     grocery cart, so you can't really fit a lot of groceries in your cart 
     (around the baby) ... not that I would want to haul all them groceries
     to and from the car (with a baby) ANYWAYS!

>     The "590" only fits in the basket of the
>     grocery cart, so you can't really fit a lot of groceries in your cart 
>     (around the baby) ... not that I would want to haul all them groceries
>     to and from the car (with a baby) ANYWAYS!
    
    	Dottie,
    
    	You must be doing something wrong. We have the 590 and it's
    	designed to fit and clamp right on over the seat, in the open 
        position, leaving the basket part empty.