Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I wondered the same things myself ... the only thing I've noticed to
    make me feel any better about it, is that THEY don't seem to see the
    cartoons as quite so violent as WE see the cartoons.  We take it more
    seriously than they do - usually.  Of course if Peter is walking around
    shooting everyone and being incredibly violent, it's probably worth
    another look.
    
    They DO interpret real-life drama and violence VERY seriously though.
    Shows like MAGNUM or whatever thosee "Let's see how many people we can
    kill in an hour" shows are, seem to REALLY affect my boys.  They'll
    actually shut them off.
    
    Maybe they know the cartoons are cartoons, and you can't REALLY be run
    over by a train, fall off a cliff and have a rock land on top of you
    and be ok....!
    
    Anyone else?

    Whatever you do don't let them watch the NEWS!
    

    	I grew up with seven kids in our family and as a result, the TV was
    rarely on (we would always argue about which show to watch). As a
    result, I am one of the few Americans who *never* watched Saturday
    morning TV (I also can't name all of the kids in the Brady Bunch). How
    could I watch Saturday TV, I was too busy playing outside with my
    friends or playing catch with the dog or....well, you get the picture.

    	Now that I am an adult, I have seen some of these cartoons and I
    cringe. Have you taken a good look at some of the stereotypes that are
    portrayed? The good girls that must be rescued by the strong boys? The
    race and older people stereotypes? The violence as humor? It makes me
    sick to think that these values are being passed onto children in the
    form of entertainment.

    	There will be no cartoons for our child, (pending) instead, we'll
    sit down and read a book, or play with the dog, or...well, you get the
    picture.

    			Wendy

    I try not to use the TV as a babysitter.  But, when I try to cook
    dinner I sometimes give in.  I try to encourage other things to do 
    (puzzle, coloring, etc.) but he like the cartoons and I sometimes 
    feel he needs to do things HE likes too.  He is in school all day and
    they follow a rather rigorous academic calendar.
    
    I have set some times so he can watch his favorites.  And thank
    goodness the weather is getting better so we can go out more (and lets
    not forget day light savings time too!).  
    
    How about some of the commercials they throw in for the latest horror 
    movies?  I could die!  We are watching a family show and all of a
    sudden we are seeing previews for Friday the 13th or something!  One
    extreme to another.  I get so angry.  By the time I get the channel 
    changed he may have already seen the worse.  Why do they do that? 
    I actaully called a TV station once because of a Saturday afternoon
    movie they were showing.  I know, change the station, but I was so upset.
    I cannot always be there to monitor the TV.  
    
    Thank Goodness Pete is pretty intelligent and selective about what 
    he watches.    

    I grew up with these cartoons ... and I too cringe at their violence,
    but on the other hand, I don't know of anyone who I could say was
    affected by them.  On the other hand, we laugh at the 3 stooges but
    I remember a lot of re-enactment of their slap-stick violence.
    
    I think it all has to do with what Disney called the "plausible
    impossibility" ... the character runs off the cliff and doesn't
    fall until he looks down, or manages to run back.  I think the fact
    that these are generally animals, that kids see the violence they
    employ as ludicrous and so make no effort to mimic.
    
    What got me more than these older cartoons were some of the modern
    ones like the transformers where the plots were based on one word 
    
    "DESTROY"
    
    Stuart

    My son is still at the Mr. Rogers/Sesame St. age, and that's all
    I let him watch. The thing that bothered me the few times we watched
    cartoons on the commercial stations was the ads -- talk about 
    stereotyping... and the bombardment with buy-this-junk-toy/junk-
    food messages. My plan is to get a VCR soon and buy/rent/make a lot 
    of tapes. 
    
    I'm not anti-TV or anti-cartoon. I like the older stuff the best
    (natch - I'm "old" myself!). Watching the tube can be a great thing at 
    certain times (like 5:30 p.m. when everyone's frazzled, or when kids are 
    sick). 
    
    Lucy 

    One opinion holds that the cartoons safely act out the agression kids
    have inside themselves.
    
    This is like Bettelheim's opinion that fairy tales symbolically work
    out issues in children's psychology.  The fairy tales have a lot of
    gruesome violence in them.  Kids are small, fairly helpless, and
    powerless.  They are also supposedly afraid of their agressive
    fantasies, "If I wish Bobby was dead, will he die?"  The fairy tales
    and cartoons provide an outlet, they say.
    
    I do have a problem with the stereotypes and commercialism.  Also with
    those twerpy little societies in cartoons, that value conformity so
    highly.  
    
    As a child I remember being turned off by the violence.  I liked the
    colors, music, and action, but I just tuned much of the violence out. 
    My brother enjoyed all of it a lot.  He's a very placid, kind,
    nonviolent man today.  
    
    Not acting as an advocate for tv, but just saying it may not be so
    serious a problem,
    
    Laura

    I only let Alexander watch sesame st and Mr. Rogers and sometimes the
    smurfs(they are my favorite).  But at daycare I have no say in what he
    watches, they watch mostly the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and she
    also lets them watch Sesame St.  But on the nice days they spend most
    of their time out side playing.  I very rarely let Alex watch the
    regular cartoons like bugs bunny, guost busters, ect.  I think that
    some of them have to much violance in them that the kids pick up.  They
    think that if they get stabed or hit with a rock or fall off a cliff
    they won't die, but thats not true.
    
    
    Liz

What bothers me the most about Saturday morning cartoons is that they are just
commercials.  I mean, Smurfs started out as toys and then became a cartoon show.
The whole point is to sell stuff to kids.

The commercials *between* the commercials are just as bad.  Full of stereotypes
and hard-core sell.

The cartoons *we* grew up with were definitely violent - that poor coyote kept
falling off cliffs and having rocks drop on him and trucks ran over him.  And
then there's the 3 Stooges.  How many of us poked each other in the eyes
because of them?  We survived.

I plan to limit television when my kid's old enough to notice it.  Sesame Street,
3-2-1 contact, Mr. Rogers, Square One will all be allowed (my husband and I 
watch them now, we're addicted to 'MathNet').  I *know* I'll sometimes use the
TV as a babysitter; I'm only human and sometimes I'll just be too tired to
argue.  Good television can stimulate the mind; it's the bad television that I
want to avoid.

I also *refuse* to buy anything with the brand name written on it.  It is
really hard to find stuff that doesn't advertise itself.  (I failed on that
yesterday - I really needed a summer hat for my daughter and I couldn't find
any reasonably priced ones without 'Fisher Price' embroidered on it.  If this
annoys me enough, I'll pick the embroidery out...)

    I am due to have a baby in June.  I think that a child does not need to
    watch cartoons, or video's all day.  Both my sister-in-laws have tons
    of tapes and everytime I visit my nieces, they are glued to the TV. 
    Even when I babysit for one of them, a tape is always in their bags.  
    
    I don't remember watching TV all day when I was a kid.  I spent most of
    my time outside, playing with my toys (barbies, dolls, coloring).  I
    think it helps a child to develop an imagination when he/she plays with
    their toys.  And another think that bothers me is kids have too many
    toys.  That's another thing that annoys me.  How can a child enjoy 200
    toys.  I think parents should limit the amount of toys they have in
    their rooms, if they have lots of toys, parents should store some in
    the attic ....let them play with some of them for a while....then gradually
    take the new ones from the attic.  
    
    It's real easy for me to come up with these rules now, but let's see
    what happens when mine is born.  Hopefully, I will stick by them and
    not give in like most parents do.
    
    Donna
    

When I got my B.A. in Psychology 10 years ago, we viewed a film that was
taken of a study done on violence and children.  The children were in two
groups.  One watched cartoon characters doing violence.  The others watched
something more innocuous.  Then each group was allowed to have free play
(separately) in a room filled with toys.  

The group that watched the violent cartoons spent much more time playing
violently.  The cameras focused on kids kicking and punching an inflated clown.

I noticed that Evan reacted similarly.  If one of us slipped and allowed him
to watch traditional cartoons (or superhero ones) then he would be much more
likely to be aggressive towards *us*, yelling at us, hitting us, etc.
He was, at that time, only about 18 months old.

Now (at age 3) the violent shows he watches are Star Trek TNG (*I* didn't
notice the violence; *he* did!), Zorro, Bordertown, and Ninja Turtles (once a
week; Shellie's choice, *not* mine).  Guns are a concern to him.  He thinks he
could be shot on the street at any time.  He makes Ninja Turtle "moves" that
are agressive, but not when he is angry (just for "fun"). 

Am I concerned?  Yes.  What am I going to do about it?  I am starting to tape
a week's worth of Reading Rainbow, Mr. Rogers, and other PBS shows for him to
watch on weekend mornings.  Shellie and I may be switching which weekend morning
we get up with him, so she may be taking Sunday, when there *isn't* a
Ninja Turtles show.  I will take him shopping or to the park or something,
instead of bringing it up.  In this way, I may be able to reduce the amount
of time he spends watching it.  I don't want to take away anything too 
important to his socialization, but I also don't want him violent.

Good luck to others who are struggling through this.

       Carol

    re: .11
    
>When I got my B.A. in Psychology 10 years ago, we viewed a film that was
>taken of a study done on violence and children.  The children were in two
>groups.  One watched cartoon characters doing violence.  The others watched
>something more innocuous.  Then each group was allowed to have free play
>(separately) in a room filled with toys.  

>The group that watched the violent cartoons spent much more time playing
>violently.  The cameras focused on kids kicking and punching an inflated clown.
    
    I think the question here should be something along the line of "How
    do the kids act x hours after seeing the videos?  Has their behavior
    changed semi-permenantly?"
    
    For example, sometimes, after I've spent an hour or so practicing
    landings in my airplane, on the way home from the airport, I find
    myself doing 2 things:
    
    	Driving down the middle of the road.  (The lines that mark the
    center of the taxi-ways at my airport are the same yellow as the center
    lines on the road.  In a low-wing airplane like mine, you BETTER taxi
    with the nose gear on the line unless you enjoy buying new lights and
    other ground equipment for the airport).
    
    	Pulling back on the steering wheel as I approach 70 MPH.  (The
    reason for this pretty obvious).
    
    Bob

    I don't come to this conversation with clean hands, since I really
    like the old Warner Bros. cartoons and the Three Stooges still
    crack me up.  (This is a 35-year-old with a master's degree...)
    
    I don't like either the violence or the stereotyping on the Saturday
    a.m. cartoons.  We have the Disney Channel -- and I admit, some of
    what they show isn't all that great either.  Frequently, James will
    ask to watch one of his dad's instructional golf videos or another
    Mom-and-Dad-approved video (Sesame Street, Disney Sing-Along-Songs,
    etc.).
    
    The thing that I have noticed most about James and TV is that the
    commercials on Kids' TV *really* get him crazy!  He'll jump up and
    down and yell -- just goes into the stratosphere.  This is the major
    reason why we don't let him watch Saturday morning TV, except for
    the aforementioned.  
    
    Another thing I've noticed is that a lot depends on who he's been
    playing with the most recently.  When we're on vacation or home for
    a long weekend, his interests turn more to sports, for example.
    If he's spent a lot of time playing with the kid across the street,
    he'll point a finger at me and go "Bang, bang" from time to time
    (and not necessarily in response to anything I've said).  I always
    tell him, "I don't like bang-bang games.  I think there's enough
    meanness in the world already. Let's not play those games in our
    house."
    
    I've found that limiting TV viewing is a good idea for the whole
    family, not just the kids.  My sitter, fortunately, is very careful
    about what the kids watch, her own (ages 18 and 14) included.  At the same
    time, I've found that kids are pretty aggressive anyway, with or
    without TV.  I've been trying to channel that energy into sports,
    physical games with Mom & Dad, helping around the house, etc.
    Is it working?  Sometimes.  I mean, we're not perfect.  I like to
    watch "Jeopardy!" myself, so if Mom has a favorite TV show, how
    can I expect James to willingly go without TV?  

I read an article the other day on children's TV and how it affects them.  
Seems a study was done to try and determine whether unreal (e.g. animated) 
or real (e.g. situation comedy) shows had more of an effect.  The result 
showed that even very young children realized that cartoons weren't real, 
and tended not to adopt the behaviour they saw ... at least not for more 
than a few minutes after watching the show.  The "real" shows, on the other 
hand, seemed to have a tremendous effect on the children't behaviour, 
because the kids apparently thought that they represented real life
situations. 

FWIW,
Steve

    With AJ in daycare 5 days a week and out of the house at least from 7am
    to 6pm TV time in our home HAS to be carefully selected.  He's 4.25 now
    and still, I swear, lives for Mr. Rogers, Sesamie Street, and as for
    commercial TV it's Pooh Bear, there's a cartoon and a live version on
    Saturday mornings, and I think every kid I've had contact with lover
    "full house" on Friday nights.  We allow him to stay up late for that
    since he doesn't have to get up early Saturday.  Dad has managed, much
    to my personal disaproval, to make a TREKie out of him, and that
    occupies a portion of early Saturday evening, usually while I'm either
    making or cleaning up from dinner.
    
    So what's wrong with the stooges?  I agree it's OK for adults with some
    sense of reality, I do *very much* dislike their poking, slapping and
    other violent behavior.  I've discovered that adults of our generation
    are bigger fans of the stooges than the kids, probably because it's in
    black and white, not color.
    
    As for the hard sell commercials we usually can deal with requests for
    "mom I want that" with a "we'll see".  How did he get so hooked on the 
    Teenage Turtles (heros in the halfshell), who know osmosis maybe.  He
    certainly didn't see it on our TV!!  I sometimes wish someone would
    drop a bombSHELL on the half SHELLS!!
    
    Lyn
    

    Lyn,
    
    I know what you mean about them Turtles. My 3-yr-old has never seen
    the show in our house (possibly at sitter's once or twice) but
    knows all the names of every character. I do sort of get a kick out
    of this small person running around yelling "I'm Donatello! You're
    Raphael!" - I mean, I didn't know those names until college...
    
    My husband is turning my son into a Bruins fan...this really is
    much worse than the Three Stooges, Star Trek, or any animation you
    could name. Fortunately he doesn't seem to have noticed some of the,
    er, more physical aspects of hockey yet (maybe because we only have 
    a 10" TV).
    
    Lucy, praying for playoffs to end early this year 

    How do you limit a childs TV time, when his Dad watches TV nearly the
    entire time he is home?  My husband has a habit of turning on the TV as
    soon as he walks in the door.  I get tired of it being on and suggest
    he turn it off (or sometimes I just turn it off when he leaves the room
    for a minute). 
    
    My son is only 7 months old, but he will sit infront of the TV in a
    daze.  He won't even move while it is on.  As he grows up, I don't 
    want to have him watching TV all the time, there are too many other
    things he could be doing.  
    
    Any ideas how I can suggest to my husband that he shouldn't have the TV
    on so often.  I haven't come up with a way to do this without causing a
    major upset.  He especially likes to watch Stallone and Swartzeneager
    (sp) movies. Not something that I feel kids should be watching.
    
    Kathy

    Thanks for Kathy (814.17) for bringing up a real sore point.
    
    My husband watches TV for hours and it drives me nuts.  He puts on
    channel 50 (New Hampshire) and watches action shows and Star Trek every
    day after work, 2 or 3 hours.  Dinner, and back to TV.  Weekend
    mornings he often watches cartoons or old movies.  I too am concerned
    that my daughter not pick up this habit.  Hopefully she'll remain very
    active and not want to sit still that long.  Even when I put on Sesame
    Street especially for her, she rolls around on the floor while keeping
    an eye on the screen.
    
    Oh boy.  This is a sore point.
    Laura

    Laura (.18)
    
    It sounds as if you and I are in the same situation.  I just get so fed
    up with the TV at times I could just scream. (not that he would notice)
    I have also noticed that while my husband is watching TV, he tunes 
    everything and everyone else out.  I would get more response talking to 
    a wall then I get out of him.  He uses a TV tray so he could eat infront 
    of the TV in the evenings and not miss anything.
    
    It is a real sore point with me too.
    
    Kathy

    My fantasy is that someday the engineers will invent a TV receptor
    wired in directly to the visual and audio centers in the brain.  No TV
    necessary, just an antenna hookup to a connector on the couch potato's
    head.  Can you imagine him sitting there staring into space, exclaiming
    "Nooo - you shoulda [passed that ball, shot 'em, sued 'em, etc.]!"
    
    How about a row of couch potatos, each with his/her own hookup?  Your
    kids friends come over to play, "Gee, its too bad he got hooked.  See
    what can happen if you watch too much tv?"
    
    L

    Is it all guys??  Dan is CONSTANTLY in front of the T.V., and I'm
    CONSTANTLY trying to shut the da*n thing off!  What seems to work
    (kinda, sorta) is that I complain _to the KIDS_ that Dad has the T.V.
    on again and he won't listen to us etc.  It may be considered a dirty
    trick, but there's just no way that I'm going to get him to watch less
    T.V. (trust me - I've TRIED), and there's _NO WAY_ that I want the boys
    growing up thinking that it's OK to be a couch potatoe.
    
    Take the backhanded approach ... it works in my house, and sometimes
    I'll even hear the boys telling their dad to shut off the TV!
    
    

    It's funny how this string has changed from worrying about the
    kids seeing too much TV to complaints about husbands being TV
    addicts...it makes me wonder if the kids who see their parents
    in front of the TV all the time will get the message that TV is
    fine, regardless of what the other (non-addict) parent has to say.
    
    It sounds like the issue is a family-wide one. If Dad's TV-watching
    habits annoy Mom, and she feels the kids are getting the wrong 
    message, maybe it's something for the parents to address as a
    *family* issue. I know it can be awfully touchy, but better to deal
    with it than let it fester.
    
    Lucy

    AJ has been turned into a couch potato by his DAD!!  The last few
    replies could describe my hubby, except I do not own, and will NOT have
    a set of TV trays!  You want to eat, you do it in the kitchen!  (I
    guess except when WE do a "mental health night" which is usually a
    bottle of wine with natchos, AFTER AJ is alseep, usually quite late at
    night).  What's worse it that AJ seems to have picked up from his dad
    that it's "OK" to ignore mom while the TV is on!
    
    How about the latest twist in the wonderful world of TV networks....on
    Wednesday nights at 8:00 of all times there's Looney tunes!  Now I'm
    not really opposed to Bugs bunny, Sylvester and those critters, it's
    the time I have a problem with.  That makes for a late night for a 4
    year old!  
    

    
    I tuned into your note on cartoons because my 6 year old tells me
    "other kids get to watch cartoons" and I'm wondering if her social life
    will be permanently damaged because she doesn't!  One thing which has
    worked for us-- and solved both the husband-tv and child-tv issue-- was
    moving the (only) tv to our bedroom.
    
    It definitely has disadvantages, but it's been almost a year now, and
    it's been wonderful!  It cured my then five year old of switching from
    PBS to cartoons and watching more tv than I was happy with.  Now my
    husband does not turn on tv until the kids are in bed and many nights
    not at all.  Weekends we rarely watch.  The disadvantage is: there are
    a number of worthwhile programs and we miss some of them.
    
    Thanks for raising the topic-- the responses were interesting.