Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Our fourth was born when I was 9 days short of 38, in August of '89. 
    My sister had her second at 39, her first at 29!!
    
    While I cannot supply the exact statistics for Downs or other birth
    defects, my OB strongly urged me to have an amnio with my last
    pregnancy, which I did.  Thankfully, the baby was fine; I sincerely
    don't know what I would have done had he not been.
    
    Aside from the risk of birth defects, you do have to consider maternal
    age in regards to the pregnancy and labor in my opinion.  This last one
    really wiped me out!  Perhaps it was dealing with the other children,
    or the fact I am older, I had no energy.  Additionally, you may want to
    consider spacing between the children.  Too much time, and the kids
    might feel no common bonding, too close and you go nuts.
    
    Looking back on it, I'm happy my kids are so close in age, they play
    together nicely, and go through the same "passions" at the same time. 
    For instance, they are all in the "Ninja Turtle" phase right now, and
    will play together for hours on it.
    
    Just a few thoughts
    

	The older you are, the greater your chance of a multiple birth.

	If I remember, I'll try to look up the table with the numbers on 
this tonight.

Tracey

I'm sure I remember someone posting occurrences of Down's Syndrome based on 
age.  Perhaps it was in V2.  

Clay

Well, I turned 37 in September and will be having #2 in December.
I didn't have my first until age 33.  Since I wanted more than one
(after getting over the absolute S H O C K of colicky number 1)
I didn't really think about not having number 2.  I did lose one
pregnancy, but have a feeling it might have been due to CVS.  For
this one I opted not to have CVS or amnio.  I'm taking my chances.

There are times when I think that 3 would be a good number, but don't
know if I want to do this again.  Both pregnancies have been "easy".
I'm tired, but I tend to not watch my weight gain and dragging around
all this extra would tire out anyone, not to mention chasing a 3 year
old and putting in a good 40-50 hours a week.

Liz

    The following is taken from "Babies with Down Syndrome, A New Parents
    Guide" Edited by Karen Stray-Gundersen, without permission. 
    
    Likelihood of Having a Baby with Down Syndrome Based on Maternal Age
    
    	Maternal Age			Frequency of Down Syndrome
    					      Among births*
    
    	20-24					1/1450 (average)
    	25-29					1/1347 (average)
    	30					1/885
    	31					1/826
    	32					1/725
    	33					1/592
    	34					1/465
    	35					1/365
    	36					1/287
    	37					1/225
    	38					1/176
    	39					1/139
    	40					1/109
    	41					1/85
    	42					1/67
    	43					1/53
    	44					1/41
    	45					1/32
    	46					1/25
    	47					1/20
    	48					1/16
    	49					1/12
    
    * This chart lists only the "approximate" frequency of babies with 
    Down syndrome based on the mother's age.  The figures are based on the 
    "average" of the findings of four separate population surveys. (Hook &
    Lindsjo, 1978; Trimble & Baird, 1978).

    	I entered .5 so that you would know what the numbers say, also in
    the book, again, I am quoting without permission.  " A surprising fact
    is that seventy-five percent of babies with Down syndrome are born to 
    mothers _under_ thirty-five years of age."
    	Since this book was written, we have been told that the frequency 
    in babies born with Down syndrome to mothers under thirty-five have 
    increased to 80%. 
    	I was 29 when my son was born, with Down syndrome and in the last 
    year, we have had 5 babies born in our city, (that we know of) with 
    Down Syndrome, all to mothers under the age of thirty.
    	I hope this information is of some help to you and will help 
    ease your mind a bit.  
    	I say GO FOR IT and enjoy the h*ll out of a new baby.  Although
    I only have one right now, it has been the BEST experience of my life,
    and I am looking forward to the next time. 
    
    Malinda

    re .6, most Down's babies born to young mothers
    
    It's not at all surprising--since almost _all_ babies are born
    to young mothers, even a low rate of Down's syndrome will give
    a large number of Down's babies (a million babies times a
    one-thousandth chance is a thousand Down's babies).  The small
    number of babies born to older mothers may have a higher rate
    of Down's syndrome, but a smaller total number (ten thousand
    times a one-hundredth chance is a hundred Down's babies).
    
    (The numbers above are only for purposes of illustration, I don't
    have real numbers on the fraction of mothers over 35, etc.)
    
    		-John Bishop

    I was 36 when my third was born -- the pregnancy was harder, I was
    tireder throughout, and labor didn't progress well, but on the
    other hand I bounced back faster and had few problems with the
    postpartum depression I experienced the first two times.
    
    Many many women over 40 are having children now.  
    
    I think doctors worry about it too much -- the rates of various
    problems do go up, but the vast majority of pregnancies still turn
    out just fine.  It's a good idea to be aware of the kinds of
    problems you might have to deal with, but I wouldn't let potential
    problems keep me from trying to have another baby if I wanted one.
    
    --bonnie

    RE:  The older you are, the greater your chance of a multiple birth.
    
    I have never heard that before!  I'm not doubting you, but that's a
    shocker!  Has anyone else heard that before?  B-T-W:  I loved hearing
    from the mom whose first was born at age 33.  I'm 32 today... and well,
    we're not parents-to-be yet!
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

<    RE:  The older you are, the greater your chance of a multiple birth.
<    
<   Has anyone else heard that before?  

Yes, it's accurate.  I don't remember why, though.

       Carol

    I think that you have to be careful and not take statistics at face
    value when you see them.  For example, I read a book that said that 1
    in 5 pregnancies ends in miscarriage.  Well, for the first three months
    of my pregnancy I was a basket case, but kept in mind that this
    statistic didn't give the age or maternal health of the women who
    miscarried.  
    
    I also think that a lot of factors come into play in pregnancies at any
    age.  For example, there is evidence now that the father's age plays a
    role in downs syndrome.  Also, was the mother exposed to a lot of
    x-rays in her lifetime?  Does the mother work in an environmentally
    hazarous job?
    
    If you are worried about having a baby at your age, there is a lot of
    support out there.  Your doctor can refer you to a genetic counselor. 
    You can have CVS or amniocentesis.  
    
    And yes, perhaps the older the mother, the more difficult the
    pregnancy.  But I know lots of younger women who have difficult
    pregnancies also.  I think every case is different and you should
    explore the risks with a good physician.
    
    Nancy

    Thanks for all the replies thus far. I agree with all of you;
    it's good to know the risks involved but not to let those risks 
    influence one's decision too much. I would also add that
    the possibility of Downs Syndrome does not put me off -- many 
    (most?) Downs babies are wonderful babies and become even more
    wonderful adults. I just like to know the odds.
    
    I know there are a lot of us "older" moms out here (me? older?
    well, I guess so. :-)  and I'd be glad to hear any other thoughts.
    Quite honestly, I never gave much thought to the question
    of age. Actually, it didn't occur to me at all that it should
    be a concern until, when first pregnant at age thirty three, a doctor
    told me that my body wouldn't "bounce back like a girl of
    eighteen." (Which is pretty funny, as I was twenty pounds
    heavier and a lot less fit when I was eighteen... but never mind.)
    
    Again, thanks --
    Barbara  

    Re .9 & .10 - Yes the risk of multiple births goes up as maternal age
    increases.  I had my twins at age 33,  not so old in MY book, but
    definitely more at risk of multiples.  Also, very early in age is at
    greater risk - teenagers.  I've read teenagers because their bodies
    aren't hormonally perfectly regulated yet, and "oldsters" like me as
    the body's way of increasing the chances of conception, and
    reproduction.  That's the theory anyway, just a theory.
    
    By the way, as for miscarriages, my first pregnancy was a miscarriage. 
    I'd also heard and read 1 in 5 statistics.  
    
    If you want another, go for it!
    

    ADVANCED MATERNAL AGE!!!  That's the reason they put down for me having
    a amnio. I felt like I was in my 60's instead of only 36!!

    I had my first just last October 15th, just three weeks before turning
    37, my husband is 48. Already, we can't picture life with out our
    little Daniel. He is a pure joy!! 

    We are hoping to have another child before I turn 40. If after 40,
    we'll decide if we still want another child or not.

    Norma

    I had my third child at 42.....I don't know if anyone is active in this
    note so I won't elaborate......
    
    but I will add.....it was the best thing that has happened to me in 10
    years...I could go on with the differnces in having one younger and
    having one older as by my experiences....the tales are endless...my
    children are 22, 15 and 2....
    
    ellie

    I had my first (so far, only) child at 39.  I feel like a kid all over
    again, even all the hauling and picking up.  Mental attitude determines
    how you feel, mostly, and if you LOVE having a child to raise, you'll
    feel very good.   Got to get my 8 hours a night, but I wasn't able to
    disco till dawn at 39 anyway -:)  
    
    Number two at 40+ ?  Well, why not?  LOVE those babies.  And with the
    increased life expectancy and better health later in life, a baby at 40
    is comparable to a baby at maternal 25 born 40 years ago.  (From the
    big demographic expert, heh heh.)  At least a woman of 40 today can
    wear sneakers and to heck with dignified behavior!
    
    Do plan financially, though.  You'll be socking away for retirement AND
    your child's education, while paying $400+ per week for day care.  The
    more reason to sock it away for retirement as soon as you start working
    as a young person.  With the "power of interest compounding", the money
    set aside for retirement at age 22 is worth much more than that set
    aside at 40.  Vanita VanKaspel (sp?) has a very good book on financial
    planning that explains all this.
    
    Also, take very good care of your health.  Eat well, etc.  You don't
    want to be in crummy shape for your kid's college graduation when
    you're 62!
    
    Laura

    I agree Laura.....it is pretty amazing to me when I hear myself giving
    a *little* motherly advice to my oldest daughter about having
    children...she is 22 and has been married a little over a year and she
    says they are planning to have children in a few years...and I have to
    tell her to prepare for the initial 30 thousand dollars it costs to
    have a child in daycare from the ages of 6 months to 5 when they start
    school!!! I am just amazed that my son is costing that much....and he
    is 2 so I still have 20 thousand dollars to go until he is 5...this is
    for the full time working mother....I never thought of or dealt with
    this 23 years ago when I was pregnant with Rachelle.... I know what you
    mean about not being up to partying til dawn by age 39....I have fought
    losing the weight I gained carrrying my last child...I finally realized
    that I just HAD to lose the weight if I was going to keep up with
    him!!! PHEWWWWW!!!! 
    
    ellie

I too am a first time mom in my late 30's -- I was 37.5 yrs old when Mackenzie was born
last October 15th. I didn't have any expectations as to how the whole pregnancy/birth would
go due to my age and my doctor was very supportive and never brought up age as a factor.
I did have Amnio but that was my call and not my doctors.

The joy of my life was conceived via IUI - 5 months of trying.
I had an extremely easy pregnancy - never morning sick,normal tired first and last trimester,
no indigestion/cramps - I actually loved being pregnant!

During the 2nd trimester I moved 3000 miles and started a new job,sold a house,bought a new
house and found a new doctor so things were a little hectic. During my 7th month, I even 
took a 2 week jaunt to Alaska (afraid that I would never get to do it once I had a child ;-)

I also had a fast and  easy delivery. Labor started when my water broke and Max was born
5.75 hours later. This 8 pounder came so fast she was all peaches and cream at birth. She 
was a beautiful baby right from the start!

When my birthing class met after we all had our children to discuss our birthing experience,
the moms that had the easiest time were "all of us old folks". I know this is not the case
most of the time and I did have a unique experience but even though age could be a factor don't
let it get in your way of doing what you want to do. We are planning on a second in about
a year - I will be 39-40ish then. I hope my second experience is the same as the first but
I am not counting on it either. What will be - will be.

Good luck!

Dena

    Hi,
    
    I can offer a little perspective from the other end.  My mother was 48
    and my father 52 when I was born.  I don't know if the risk of Down's
    and age were known in 1951 (now its your turn to figure how old I'll be
    when my first is born in June) but because of other complications my
    mother did have the legal right to abort (Phewwww).
    
    Growing up the one big difference between me and my friends was always
    that my parents were old, my parents friends were old, my uncles and
    aunts were old, and all my cousins were old(r).  I remember Santa Claus 
    telling my mother she had a cute grandson.  I grew up in 50's and 60's, 
    and being technically inclided, took as much advantage of it as the 
    times would allow.  My parents grew up at the turn of the century and 
    lived through the Depression.  Talk about generation gap!
    
    Personally, I'm in favor of having children in your 30's and early
    40's.  Having had the opportunity to have been around the block once 
    or twice I feel my wife and I are better prepared for the arrival of my
    daughter.  I do not, however, recommend doing it much beyond that, as
    was my parents case.  It was very hard for me to observe the effects of
    old age and illness on my parents before I was even out of high school
    and to lose both of them in my early 20's.  It's a two way street. 
    Having children at an older age you need to first consider the effect 
    children will have on your life.  However, you also need to consider 
    the effect on your offspring.
    
    End of Sermon
    Loren
                                               

    Thanks to Loren for your encouraging and honest reply.  Maybe you can
    answer a question for me.  I am concerned about my daughter (born when
    I was 39) being an only child.  We hope to have another in a year or
    two.  I know several coworkers who are only children born when their
    parents were 40 or so.  They feel/felt burdened by the responsibility
    for their aging parents and one feels lonely.
    
    Of course this depends on the closeness of other family members. 
    Unfortunately, neither my husband's nor my family are geographically
    close and I am afraid of my daughter being isolated in the world when
    we pass on (not for a LONG LONG time, but still. . .)  And having a
    sibling is no guarantee that they will live nearby or be close to each
    other.   But. 
    
    Do other people feel that having a sibling is important, especially for
    a child born to "older" parents?
    
    Laura        

    In re siblings and older parents...
    
    yes definitely...
    
    my sister was born when my mom was 39 and my dad 41...
    
    she's now living closer to them than either of us two older
    sisters, and dealing with dad's illness..
    
    I don't think she'd be doing any near as well without the support
    that she's been able to get from my other sister and I.
    
    (according to a very wonderful letter she sent me.)
    
    BJ

    re:-2  I think it really depends on the family.  One detail I did not
    give (thought of it afterwards) is that I do have a sister, 18 years
    older than me.  I often joke that both my sister and I were only
    childern.  When I was less than a year old she went of to college for 4
    years.  She then married an Air Force Officer and lived for two years
    in the UK.  When they came back they were a 4 hour drive (before
    Interstates) away.
    
    When my parents got sick she did try to help, but she had her own
    family (all teenagers), her own career, and still lived  considerable
    distance away.
    
    The moral: Being an only child with older parents will tend to be 
    more difficult.  My wife and I only plan to have one child and it
    concerns me that I will be 60 when she is 20, etc.  You can believe me
    that we will plan accordingly so that, hopefully, our daughter will not
    be overburden with us, just as she is trying to get her own life going.
    
    Again, I can offer another view.  My Mother-in-law is critcally ill,
    and has been for several years.  At first my wife ( the eldest
    daughter) carried most of the burden of this.  Her three siblings have
    in the last year picked up more of the burden, and that has helped
    considerably.  But, as I said, it depends on the family.
    
    Loren

Roberta:

We adopted our multi-racial (U.S.) newborn daughter at 5 days of age,
19 days before my 40th birthday (Jim was 32, I think).    I don't want
to scare or alarm you, but adoption can be a long, emotional, expensive
avenue ... the average numbers I'm hearing today (for a healthy, US born
baby) is:  6-year waiting period, $15-20K, and a guideline that there not
be more than a 40-year spread between a parent's age and the child's age.
Now, there are some exceptions and differences (depending on the agencies
and countries you deal with), but these seem to be today's "averages".
This is also after a homestudy has been completed and qualifying data
established  (I can talk more about that, if you want).

I think it's preferable to go the infertility route prior (or during) the
adoption qualification process (e.g. homestudy), as this process can take
6-12 months.

I believe "with age" comes both pros and cons.  At 40, we were already
married 5 years, owned our home, had enough education to get decent jobs
(although I believe Jim/I will always be in school for something!) ... and
had done all those wild, fun, crazy, irresponsible things you always dream
about doing.  I wanted a child (didn't have to be a baby, though) and
Jim REALLY WANTED a child (preferably a baby).  We pursued sibling groupings,
but none materialized ... and then we got Julianne.

I don't ever feel I love Juli (and would never give her up) BECAUSE I
can't send her back ... I really do love Juli with all my heart.  But
parenting doesn't come without the sarifices, worries, lack of sleep,
demands, and a 180 in your lifestyle either.  It's a lot of changes and
a lot of responsibility ... and it's much easier to manage (and perhaps
a little less stressful and worrisome) if you have a strong relationship 
(and commitment) with someone.  Not saying single parenting won't work,
just saying that it's easier with two parents ... and even more easier
with two "commited" parents.

Parenting at 40:  there were times I was physically exhausted!  Other than that, I have really enjoyed
parenting has been (overall) great (for me).  I believe Jim felt parenting
at 32 was "good timing" for him.  So, Juli joined us at a time when we had
met most of our personal goals, we had five years invested in our marriage,
we both agreed on parenting ... and I felt we were both "ready" for
parenting responsibilities and sacrifices.

Parenting is not an easy job ... and I think a lot of thought has to go into
the commitment ... not just thoughts of all the good, fun, rewarding moments
... or the bio clock ... but also think about the "more difficult" times, too.

Good luck ... and if I can be of any help in the "adoption" arena, please
do not hesitate to contact me (via PARENTING or offline).

God Bless.

Dottie

    It's easy for me to talk. I'm not married so I haven't had to deal with
    working it out in a relationship. Sounds like you have your hands full.
    
    I'm motivated to reply because I had a phone conversation with a friend
    last night (one of many I've had with many friends over the past few
    years). My friend is approx 42 and is about to have surgery to remove
    fibroids. She couldn't handle taking perganol again after having lost
    twins in the 20th week of the pregnancy.
    
    I can tell you about other conversations...about fibroids and clomid
    and the endless testing and ultrasounds. It's an emotional roller
    coaster.
    
    You are still young. And you can probably have a baby but...Are you
    really ready to get on the infertility roller coaster with an
    ambivalent spouse ? 
    
    And, having just been through adoption, I can tell you that it, also,
    is a tough ride.
    
    If he doesn't come along, are you willing to go it alone ?
    
    Actually, it's none of my damn business. It's just that I've talked to
    so many women who have struggled with the realities and the fears and
    the uncertainty. What about Downes Syndrome ? Miscarriage ? Twins ? 
    
    Good luck. Motherhood is lots of work and the baby is a hassle. Your
    husband is right; noone can tell you how aweful you are going to feel
    when you don't want to get up at 4 in the morning. For me, it seems to
    be the right thing. But it may not be the right thing for everyone. 
                                                                        

There's always a risk that getting pregnant won't be as simple as taking
Clomid.  Even if that causes you to ovulate, there are lots of other
possible problems.  I imagine that most women who are infertility patients
are in their mid-30s, although you've certainly got a better chance if
you're younger.  But I agree with a prior reply -- if your husband's
ambivalent about it, infertility treatments will put a tremendous strain
on your marriage.  Have you brought up your desire to have children in
your joint counseling?

    Roberta,
    I think that perhaps before any of the medical angles of your
    delemma be addressed, you should consider the emotional side of
    the issue with regards to your marriage. 
    It seems to me that the difference in opinion on this issue is 
    adding a LOT of stress to your relationship. Now perhaps it is 
    time to have some councilling on this issue. 
    You must understand that even without the medical difficulties
    you have, an "oops!" pregnancy and parenthood will by no means
    change the situation as far as your disagreement over the 
    issue goes. Children don't magically heal marital disagreements.
    
    As far as age goes, I get the feeling that the odds of having a 
    healthy kid are NOT that different between 20 and 40. Most folk
    in the higher age brackets sometimes mention that the kids tend
    to wear them out faster, but this is not a medical reason for not
    having kids after 35! 
    I am now 33 and in the 29th week of pregnancy. I am not concerned 
    about maternal age at all, really. 
    BTW I do know how you feel when you see all of those around you having
    children and you not; during my first pregnancy last year I knew of 
    no less than 13 other women, family friends and co-workers that had
    babies, between January and July. And my child was stillborn in March.
    
    Good luck on both emotional and medical fronts!
    
    Monica
    

    Hi Roberta,
    
    After two years on the infertility roller coaster and having done two
    cycles of IVF, I can honestly say that I wouldn't have been able to do
    it if not for my husband.  His constant love and support during the ups
    and the downs (and there were a lot more downs) was just what I needed
    to endure this very emotional and physical adventure.  
    
    We have been together 13 years (married 8) and I thought we had
    experienced a lot of the tough times together, but nothing compared to
    the infertility treatments.  We have a great marriage and its true that
    you can grow together in times of adversity.  There was a real good
    balance for us, when I was low on hope, faith, strength...Glenn filled
    me up and visa versa.  Today being 30 weeks pregnant I can look back
    on the whole experience with the infertility test, doctors, IVF, etc.
    as a very positive experience.  It was one that brought us closer
    together and opened up a side of our relationship that we both hadn't
    seen.  I think you need a strong foundation to start on or this whole
    trip into infertility can tear two people apart.
    
    I'm 34 and feel like this is a wonderful age to bring a child into our
    life.  I also feel that given todays medical procedures that there is
    a lot of hope and success in achieving pregnancy in your mid or late
    30's...not just because it worked for us, but in two years we had a
    lot of exposure to what options were open for us...lots of them we were
    not even aware of.
    
    I wish you the best of luck!
    
    ..Lori
          

Good luck, Roberta!!  I hope it gets worked out to the satisfaction of
both of you!!

   Carol