Conference moira::parenting_v3

I see that we don't have the inevitable spanking topic yet in this version 
of PARENTING, so I suppose this is it.  (I've updated the title from
"How can it be right?" to "How can it be right? (the spanking topic)".)

As an advance warning, to quote Tracey, our host moderator:

(from 1.1)

	Speaking of controversial notes,  there are a few topics which pop up
with amazing regularity which are guaranteed to raise people's blood pressure.
Some of these are "to spank or not to spank", "in home or center based daycare"
and the ever popular "Should Moms/Dads stay home with Jr."  While these are
valid topics to be discussed here, the moderators beg you to 1) keep your cool
and remember to respect the other noters even if you don't agree with them and 
2) Please confine discussion of these topics to the notes intended for it. 
Please don't take every note down a rathole on one of these subjects. Failure
to comply will result in moderator action.

(from 1.13)

	If I may make a suggestion to everyone, if you MUST discuss one of 
THOSE topics right now, (you know the ones I mean, spanking, staying at home to 
take care of the baby, in home care versus daycare, whether or not unheated 
formula causes brain damage :-) ), please take special care to not provoke 
one another.  Don't tell someone who works that they are "abandoning their 
child".  Don't tell someone who believes in spanking that they are "abusing 
their child".   Try to use "I" language.  Rather than saying "what you did 
was wrong" (which is so easy to read as "you are a bad person") try to say
that "I feel uncomfortable with the idea of ..." of something similar.  It 
makes it SOOOO much easier to discuss the *subject* and not each other's 
characters.

-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

Y(et) a(nother) m(od) c(aution).

There are two very volatile issues here:

	1. Physical punishment per se

	2. To what extent the government should regulate parent/child
	   relationships.

One can be opposed to physical punishment, but also opposed to making it 
_illegal_.

There is also a cultural/language issue.  It is not clear to me whether 
"smacking" means the same in Basingstoke as it does in Maynard or Geneva.
Or even whether it meant the same thing to all the conversants in Basingstoke.

The definition in my dictionary (basically American English) is "to KISS or 
SLAP noisily" (emphasis mine).  I assume we're talking about the "slapping" 
context, but it is not at all clear to me whether the base noter meant "slap" 
or "slap hard", or whether she meant something else entirely.

So when you reply, please DON'T assume that "smack" means the same thing to 
everyone.  Say what it means to YOU when you state your opinion.  And base 
noter, please clarify what you mean.

Clay

    All right, I'll start...
    
    I personally agree that there is a time and place that MY child needs
    to be spanked. We do try to avoid spanking but sometimes it is the
    "only way" to drill something home and it is never our first choice of
    discipline.
    
    Our definition of spanking is a swat on the bottom (maybe 2 if Berk has
    really pushed his and our limits) and being removed from the situation
    totally. When in diapers, he would get spanked on the thigh because the
    diaper provided only a place to make a loud sound. He has never been
    laid across a knee and we have NEVER (and totally disapprove) of using
    things like a belt, spoon, etc.
    
    That's my opinion (and method) of spanking.
    Andrea

    I'm going to skirt the spanking issue itself, and suggest the danger of
    overgeneralizing on approaches to discipline in general.

    I remember reading decades ago in one of Conrad Lorenz's fine books his
    observations on training dogs.  He had two at the time.  One would
    remain virtually unperturbed, after some misdeed, if shouted at,
    whacked, banished to some place of exile, whatever; but he would
    gradually modify his behavior if such discipline was consistently and
    lavishly applied.  The other dog would be plunged into a fit of remorse
    if Lorenz simply raised a disapproving eyebrow; anything more severe
    and they dog would become so hysterical as to no longer connect the
    punishment with the disapproved behavior.

    For parents, too, I think, it is more important that the punishment fit
    the child than fit the crime.  And not only do different kids need
    different approaches, but the same kid needs different approaches at
    different times.  Lately, Eric has been reacting sometimes to rather
    mild rebukes from me as if he had been sentenced to keel-hauling.  He
    is sometimes semi-devistated by a slightly raised voice that six months
    ago (and probably next week, too!) he wouldn't have noticed at all.  At
    least while he is in this mode, I can't imagine a circumstance in which
    any corporeal punishment would not be counter-productive.  I remember
    Aaron going through similar fluctuations in his degree of sensitivity
    to disapproval/discipline, and I suspect it's true of all kids.

    		- Bruce

    I had my hand slapped/smacked/spanked in another note on this same
    subject, so I will add my two cents here in the proper context.
    
    I agree with Andrea that there are certain times when spanking a child
    is appropriate. I also feel that spanking should be used sparingly and 
    as a last resort after other methods of discipline, such as discussions
    and timeout, don't work. And I most definitely believe that any spanking
    should be limited to one or two spanks/smacks with the hand only on the
    bottom/thigh.
    
    Nancy-

    Spanking is better than shaking, which can cause permanent brain damage
    by popping small capillaries in the brain.
    
    --bonnie

    I guess I'll be the first one to agree with the basenoter.  I don't
    think that a child needs to be hit (or shaken or grabbed) in order to
    be disciplined.  I don't have any children of my own so I know I'm not
    the greatest authority, but I've had close contact with the raising of
    my two nephews (Brian is almost 4 and Neil is 7 months) and neither
    of them has ever been physically punished.  Removing the child from the
    situation and/or timeouts have been sufficient.  
    
    Brian has certainly tried our patience at times (more since Neil was born)
    and certainly has his moments of being a little monster, but does our
    inability to deal with that give us the right to hit him?  I don't
    think so.  We don't want to give him the messages that problems should
    be solved with fists, or that the biggest and strongest wins.  He is
    not allowed to hit us or Neil, and I feel that hitting him would be a
    large and unfair contradiction.
    
                                                  Tracy
     

    
    In my house, almost 4-year-old Jessica reacts mostly to a raised, angry
    sounding voice best, with a threat of a spanking (on bum with hand
    only) next and the actual spanking rarely these days.  Six months ago,
    I did alot more spanking than I do now because she basically ignored me
    otherwise.  Timeouts have never been effective.
    
    For almost 2-year-old Billy, he does best with a raised angry voice and
    physical removal.  I spanked him for the first time last week when he
    repeatedly pulled the kitchen chair to the stove to try to check out 
    how dinner was cooking.
    
    As for whether spanking (as in hand on bum once or twice) should be
    illegal, it's hard for me to say.  I would guess part of it goes to how 
    each person feels about individual vs. state rights and their personal
    history with the whole spanking issue.  For me, I would not want the 
    government telling me I could not spank my children as a form of 
    discipline, but I would want them to stop me if I was abusing my
    children. I found from a past experience with a neighbor, one person's
    discipline is another person's abuse.  So, that's a fuzzy line that I
    have no idea where to draw.    
    
    And I have to second Bonnie's plea to not forcefully shake a child.
    
    Donna
    

    
    addendum to .8
    
    I forgot to mention, when a spanking occurs, it is followed with hugs
    and loving and a discussion of what led to the spanking in the first
    place.  We almost never have a repeat of the misbehavior afterward.
    Usually, with Jessica, the threat of a spanking is enough to make her
    think twice, and then she stops the misbehaviour usually.
    
    Donna
    

    It is interesting (at least to me! :-)  ) that up until about 40-50
    years ago, there never would have existed a topic such as this.
    Corporal punishment was sort of a fact of life, and very few questioned
    that it was the correct method of discipline. How did things change so
    much? I do not think that kids turned out worse in those days, and as
    for the "spanking kids makes them violent", I cannot think then how
    that would correlate with the drastic rise in violent crime by
    youngsters in the current day and age, when spanking seems to be very
    much out of favor.
    
    As for the spanking with hand only versus spanking with a neutral
    object (such as a spoon), there are many who believe that the hand
    should never be anything but an instrument of affection and love, and
    therefore should never be used to spank. 
    
    I think I will stya out of this topic as to whether I agree or disagree
    with spanking for the time being (if yu've read this file long enough,
    you already know, anyway).
    
    --dave--

    We also spank Eric (now 2.5).  We use it as last resort, when
    warning and timeout don't work.  The spanking is always followed
    with a discussion.  We always make sure he knows why he was
    spanked.  Our definition of the spanking is a swat on the hand 
    or bum.  Personnally, I do think there are times that a child 
    needs to be spanked.
    
    Wendy

    Getting back to the base note, I wonder if spanking/corporal
    punishment is only going to be banned in certain circumstances/
    places?  I.e., I would certainly not want any caregiver to spank
    my son, and I would bet that most of you feel the same way.  In many
    states in the U.S., corporal punishment has been outlawed in the
    schools, and I was wondering if this is what the basenoter is 
    talking about??  (No ratholes about the (in)appropriateness of
    spanking/corporal punishment in the schools.)  Anyway, I'm like
    Dave in .10, I will stay out of this one as I think everyone knows
    how I feel about (very occasional) spanking.
    
    And a strong THIRD to Bonnie and Donna about not shaking a child!!!

    I really believe that all children are different and react differently
    to learning.  I know that my three children require different methods
    to 'get through to them'.  So I don't know if one can make a general
    rule.
    
    My belief is that if one is going to use 'spanking', that it be done
    after the crime that warrented it.  and that the punishment not be
    extreme.  shaking is extreme and is an example of a punishment that
    cannot be justified as fitting the 'crime' due to its physical risk.
    
    Looking backwards, I come from a family of five where my father
    believed in spanking.  I don't believe that any of us have any long
    term suffering from it.  We do tend to remember the love.
    
    Our private school gave corporal punishment.  They gave us the option 
    of coming to the school to administer, or allow the principle.
    They really had little, if no, disruption of classes due to unrully
    children.  And the principle wasn't kept too busy.  The children
    knew that disobience wasn't allowed.
    
    I look at the public schools, and some of the children, some sort of
    real punishment is needed.  action==acountability
    ed
    
    

    
    Hi again,
    	Thanks to everyone for their input. There are certainly some
    interesting points & as with most things I guess it's down to the
    individuals. Tracy in note .7 pretty much summed up how I feel about
    spanking & why I feel it should be unecessary.
    
    Apologies for vagueness in the basenote. I'm more interested in
    how others feel about discipline for their children than the rights
    or wrongs of making physical punishment illegal
    
    I can never imagine Jade doing anything to warrant me spanking her,
    but that is my own personal view & I don't necessarily think it's
    right for everyone & therefore should be made illegal
    
    
    Liz

    I think that to effectively discipline a child, one must first exercise
    self-discipline.  By this I mean that a parent must work very hard to
    be consistent as he or she encourages or discourages different types of
    behavior.  This is extremely difficult. First, you have to decide the
    rough parameters of behaviour you expect. Then you have to react fairly
    consistently - day or night, tired or rested, distracted or
    enthralled.  
    
    For myself, I find that to the extent that I do that, I am happy with
    the results for my three children.  Each one probably gets a quick
    swat on the bottom about once a year.  Invariably, I immediately
    recognize that I have done so because *I* lost control, and regret it.
    
    Like most people, I probably reflect my parents' values. Though I grew
    up in a time and in a family in which few questionned physical
    punishment (the '50s, 6 kids), I remember virtually no spanking. I also
    think my parents were extremely good parents, and consciously model
    much of my parental behavior on them.  

Two issues here ... the first is spanking as punishment ...

Put simply, there is a time and place for everything. Some children, sometimes,
need some form of immediate discipline when others forms have failed, and the
discipline MUST get through, such as when a behaviour is dangerous or physically
harmful to others!  Physical punishment should not be used in anger, although
many of us have a hard job living up to that, and it should never be strong
enough to cause physical injury.

The second issue is the legality of physical punishment ...

Physical punishment is being reviewed very seriously, especially in England,
after a seemingly alarming rate of child abuse cases appearing in hospitals.
This idea of slapping being made illegal is a knee jerk reaction.  In fact, I
think you'll find in most countries, it is against the law to inflict any
violent act on another person, regardless of whether they are your family or
others.  Generally, the law has been ignored when it comes to family.  Hence
child (and wife) abuse.  A few years ago, there was a dramatic case in England
where an inordinate number of reports of child abuse were being made by a
few doctors in one hospital in the English midlands.  Even though it was
generally accepted that these Doctors were reporting cases where in fact no
abuse had occured, the publicity has made the English people extrememly
sensitized to the issue, and thus child abuse, and methods to curb it are
extremely hot issues that won't go away.

So, what this ends up boiling down to is whether specific laws need to be
introduced to define at what level physical punishment becomes child abuse,
and whether enacting such a law will in fact reduce child abuse and whether
such a law if enacted would be enforceable.

I don't think such a law is really enforceable ... it is difficult enough now
to prevent false arrest for child abuse ... it would be be nearly impossible
were such a law enacted.  Children would end up hurting themselves trying to
get back at parents!  Certainly clearer guidlines on what constitutes abuse
and therefore punishable under existing laws is needed ... a) to catch abusers
and b) to protect children.s

The other major hitch with such a law is what to do with the children and
offenders.  The social systems looking after child welfare are now overworked
by huge factors.  So, what do we do ?

Stuart

    Bravo .15! Well said.
    I also cannot imagine circumstances under which I would spank my son
    (he is almost 3). 
    But then again - my wife has mentioned things like "what if he runs
    out in the street, after we have told him not to?" or some other
    life-threatening situation and I'm not sure of my answer. I guess I 
    will decide the moment something like that happens. 
    I would be interested in the other noters who mentioned that they would
    spank - what type of typical situation warrants a spank?
    Again, .15 said it well - I would feel as though *I* had lost control
    of the situation.
    Jeff

    RE: .17
    	
    A typical situation to spank?  
    
    I usually only spank Jessica (almost 4) when she blatently disobeys a 
    'house rule' that she is fully aware of (like no jumping on the 
    beds/couch).  In this case, she gets no first warning because she
    already knows she is not supposed to be doing whatever it is.  We only
    have 4 house rules so she can remember them all with no problem.  
    
    Another case would be blatent disobedience, well, like last weekend.  
    Getting ready to get in the car, she runs down the hill that passes for 
    a side yard at our house. 
    
    	me - 	Jessica, come back here and get in the car.  We're going to 
    		Nana's now.
    
    	Jessica turns, laughs, and keeps going.
    
    	me (louder and angry voice) - Jessica, I said come here now and get
    		in the car.
    
    	Jessica laughs and starts running circles around the lilac bush
    		near the bottom of the yard.
    
    	me (real angry voice) - Jessica, if you don't come here now you
    		will get a spanking! 
    
    	Jessica looks at me, smiles and then keeps running circles.
    
    	I go down the hill, spank her bum once, bring her to the front step
    	and talk (between her sobs) with her about why mommy spanked her.  
    	Most post-spanking talks go kind of like this:
    	
     	Do you know why I spanked your bum?  Because I didn't come to the 
    	car when you called? That's right. We need to get in the car to go to 
    	Nana's	house for Auntie's birthday party and we can't go if you are 
    	not in the car with us. I called you to get in the car and you ran
    	around the lilac bush instead.  I'm sorry mommy.  I'll come next time.
    	Ok, Jessica,  I love you.  I love you too, mommy. <big hugs here>
    	Now, let's get in the car and go to Nana's.  Mommy, do you think
    	there will be chocholate cake?
    
    
    For Jessica, we only resort to spanking maybe 10-20% of the times she
    disobeys (except for house rules which she rarely breaks anyway).
    Most of the time, a louder, angry voice and/or the threat of a spanking
    is enough to get her to stop whatever it is she is doing wrong.  We
    tried timeouts as a way to gain self-control and then have a
    discussion about the disobedience, but they did nothing to curb 
    recurrances of the misbehaviour.
    
    Hope that helps you to understand a 'typical' instance when I spank
    my child.
    
    Donna
    

    Maybe I am the only one who's heard of this?
    
    We live in New Hampshire,and have been told by friends of ours
    (also parents of 2 children) that spanking is illegal in NEW
    HAMPSHIRE!!	
    
    Is this true? Our friends were suppossedly told this by their daycare!
    
    Can anyone add to the validity of this?  I find it hard to believe that
    the "Live Free or Die" state would have such a law.
    
    In my opinion, I agree with other noters that punishment should fit
    a) the crime; i.e., running into traffic is more punishable than
    spitting at your sister
    b) the offender; i.e., spanking RJ (2.5) is not only ineffective, it's
    also detrimental!! He definately sees it as a "oh, so you can do it,
    but I can't?  Well, just let me hit you back!!" type of deal
    
    I've found that picking RJ up, putting him in a chair and giving him a
    "and I MEAN it" look is presently the most effective.  
    
    Who knows what will work on his 7 1/2 month sister?  She already seems
    more devilish than him!!!
    
    Meg

re: .0

See also note 477 for a discussion of a specific technique.

re: .10

>    I do not think that kids turned out worse in those days, and as
>    for the "spanking kids makes them violent", I cannot think then how
>    that would correlate with the drastic rise in violent crime by
>    youngsters in the current day and age, when spanking seems to be very
>    much out of favor.

Dave, I suspect that if you examine who the youngsters are who are committing 
the violent crimes, and the people who do not favor spanking, you will find 
that they are from different populations.  Also, I suspect that the population 
that enters replies in this notesfile is more anti-spanking than the 
population that reads this notesfile.  And that the population that reads this 
notesfile is more anti-spanking than the general Digital population.  And that 
the the general Digital population is more anti-spanking than society 
generally.  Thus, spanking may not be as out of favor as one might conclude 
from reading this notesfile.  

Note that I am not arguing with you -- merely pointing out that the apparent 
contradiction may have a logical explanation.  Also, note that I have no 
basis for my "suspicions" other than personal observation and "gut feel".

Clay

    
    I will NEVER say NEVER again ... as since we've had a child of our own,
    I have eatten more words than I could ever imagine!
    
    What I will say is, I "personally" discovered that:
    
    .  slapping hands is usually effective when FIRST used ... it's
       effectiveness DILUTES with time and little slaps often grow
       into bigger slaps which then need to become heavier slaps which
       may become spanks which no doubt WILL BECOME ...  I truly believe
       this is how discipline can grow into abuse
    
    .  we were lucky that we only needed to do a few little hand slaps
       in emergency situations (stove buttons set a potholder on fire AND
       melted an empty teapot to the burner) ... I think I slapped because
       I "REACTED" out of fear more than anything! and I can't think of the
       second incident (now doesn't that tell you something, when you can't
       remember WHY you hit your child?!!!!!)
    
    .  after the hand-slapping, my heart ached when I saw that look in
       JA's eyes ... I realized that I NEEDED TO maintain control, bestill
       values and set limits WITHOUT slapping ... and went to work at 
       finding "just what would work WITHOUT getting physical"
    
    .  from 12 months to date (16 months), we found that we could speak in
       a harsh tone (don't scream, spill out your guts, rant and rave ...
       just speaking firmly and harshly will usually raise your child's
       eyebrows enough to gain their attention) ... then we grasp her
       hands tightly in ours WHILE speaking our repremand.  Of course
       she will wiggle, protest, deny and repeat "if allowed", but we
       hang on tight, keep eye contact and voice tone and 99% of the time
       JA will concede.  The incidents, on average, will occur maybe 2, 3
       or 4 more times and we stay consistent and firm.  Worst case (not
       often), we'll take away a toy OR place her in her crib for quiet
       time ... as if she's not receptive, it's usually because she is
       overtired and ends up eventually napping -- NEVER because she
       does NOT understand what she did wrong!
    
    We found that before a year, JA didn't really remember (so incidents
    were often repeated), however, she ALWAYS understood voice "tones"!  
    After a year, you are often up against "willpower and determination" 
    ... and if you can get around their willpower/determination, 
    you can usually solve the problem ... holding onto JA's hands and 
    maintaining eye contact almost always dilutes her willpower/determination.
    Even at 16 months, she KNOWS the limits ... do it again and
    the next step is "quiet time" (nap!) and believe me when I say
    "that IS PERMANENTLY stored in HER memory bank!
    
    We have been very fortunate in controlling, disciplining and working
    "with" JA without having to resort to "physical contact".  I'm keeping
    my fingers crossed that when our current process becomes ineffective
    (and it will someday!), we will quickly find another (nonviolent) 
    process equally as effective.
    
    I also think it's very important that both Mom and Dad have "similar"
    discipline styles, "agreed upon" limits, stay supportive (even when
    you'd like to reprimand Daddy and support the Babe! -- be sure to take
    this issue offline and privately with him, NEVER address it while he's
    in control AND in the presence of the child) and BE CONSISTENT!  If
    it's not OK today, then it won't be OK tomorrow (when Mommy's tired and
    overwhelmed).  No is no!  (it totally slays me when a child is allowed
    to beg, plea and borrow and after 16 attempts Mom or Dad caves in and
    "no" becomes "fine, have it, do it ... just get out of my face!" -- and
    then the next day we are back to "disciplining".
    
    I also try not to let my "bad moods" be a contributing element to
    my reaction to JA's endeavors ... it's not fair to come home with a
    3-Excedrine headache and jump all over JA for parking her bike wrong.
    This is so easy to do!
    
    I've said it so many, many times before ... if you can't control a
    child BEFORE the Terrible-2's, God help you and the kid when they ENTER
    the 2's, and then the 3's, and then the 4's ...
                                                             
    It's not easy being a parent ... but it's not always easy being a kid,
    either!  They're learning, too.
    
    Dottie
                                                             
    PS:  I am especially empathetic towards single parents, as they have
         it 5X worse ... all the responsibility, no breaks and often
         no one to "calm them down" at 9 pm!  Each and every one of the
         single parents in the world deserve an extra 100 hugs!
                     

    perhaps like Dottie say that slapping hands gets deluted, that some
    parents become overly tolerant of misbehavior of their children?
    
    I offer this because I've been around some families where the children
    are absolutely bomkers even to the point of being distructive in
    another's home and the parents don't even say a word to the child.
    Perhaps some parents perfer to 'see no evil' in their child?  Maybe
    that might be while they see no need for punishment?
    Of course, my little child can do no wrong!
    ed
    

    
    A friendly warning to parents in Mass. Anyone can file a report to
    the DSS. So, if you spank your child in public, and someone turns
    you in, the DSS can/will investigate.
    
    This is scary if someone who doesn't like you knows about the DSS,
    and makes up some whopper stories, then turns you in.
    
    There is no repercussion by the DSS, if the story turns out to be
    false. In fact, you aren't told who files the complaint.
    
    If your child is articulate, and you are very lucky, you may get an 
    unbiased DSS person. They may actually listen to your children.
    If you get a harda** and, they ask ambiguous questions like 
    "Does Mommy ever hurt you?" (which could mean anything), and your child
    answers "Yes". You could be in for the hassle of your life.
    
    
    GTN
    

    REgarding Mass and the DSS.  When we adopted our daughter, we were
    questioned regarding our parenting methods, punishment, etc.
    We were quite frank about our belief in spanking.  This did not
    stop DSS from placing our daughter with us.  Nor did they do
    any extraordinary investigations.  Somewhere is a musty file somewhere
    is documentation about us that we spank.  Was this limited to the
    generousity of one social worker, office.  No.  The orignal office
    investiagated us [for adoption], then our case ultimately got
    transfered to the office that gave us the child.
    
    So, if the DSS is against parents that spank, why would they not come
    after us, or at least not place a child in our care?
    ed
    

    
    
    
    I'm not saying that they against spanking per se, only that if someone
    sees you spanking your child, and that person thinks spanking is abuse,
    that person calls the DSS and files a 51A. The person who calls doesn't
    used the word spank, but abuse. The DSS will investigate.
    
    Also, there is nothing stopping someone who doesn't like you to file
    a phony report.
    
    Granted, the DSS worker will probably find the claim unsupported.
    However, a lawyer told me that some DSS workers go out of their
    way to find problems where there are none, and cited several cases he 
    knew about in which the DSS investigator did exactly that.
    
    Several my of my wife's friends will not disipline their children in 
    public anymore just to avoid a visit from a prejudiced DSS
    investigator. They are only human and are capable of making mistakes
    or being "over zealous". And who wants to go through the hassle of
    having a DSS person think that you beat your kids?
    
    While I have the floor, I'd like to say that obviously, there is a 
    need for the DSS. When I was a little kid, a friend's father used to 
    beat the daylights out of him in the front yard all the time. All us other
    kids were afraid to go over there. The Police never did anything.
    

    
    So far, we haven't spanked our daughter, 5 1/2. I can't say we'll
    never do that, but we found that we could always find a way to
    get her to listen without spanking.
    
    I think that spanking shouldn't be used to get the kids to do 
    things. (eg. I'll spank you if you don't come here.) I think if
    my kid dart out in the traffic, I would probably spank her out
    of my own fear and in this case it will probably leave a strong
    impact on the kid.
    
    Yes, my daughter knows what is expected of her, but she doesn't
    always remember it. Knowing and remembering are 2 things. Kids are
    so involved with what they are doing that it is amazing - sometimes
    I wish I could concentrate like they do. Kids have very different
    priorities than we do, what is important to us (eg. being on time) is
    not important to them. I don't think spanking should be used to 
    teach them our priorities. 
    
    Sometimes my daughter is just pure defiant. But, still we don't spank
    her. I don't get spanked when I don't agree with my husband, we
    compromise! So, we try to wheel some deals with her, not bribing,
    but negotiating. Sometimes just giving her an option works wonders. 
    Nobody wants to be cornered. 
    
    As my daughter gets older, it is helpful for us to keep communication
    going. A lot of times, it helps to understand why she doesn't listen.
    A lot of these reasons are "stupid". (eg. she doesn't want to wear 
    a hat because she doesn't like the color, and yes, her head is cold,
    but she doesn't like the color!!!) 
    
    I have been rambling on, but what I have been trying to say is that
    we can't expect kids to behave like adults - and a lot of situations
    can be resolved peacefully. Sure it takes time and some creative
    thinking, but it is worth it. 
    
    
    Eva.

I'm not a regular noter, but this experience was the nightmare of our lives and
it still hunts us.

We have a neighbor who called the DSS and accused us of not feeding our 
oldest daughter and of mistreating our second daughter.  Our oldest daughter
is very skinny, and has very little hair (some of you might remember my note
on little hair growth), so looks would be deceiving to a DSS person coming to
our house to investigate.  When she would go to our neighbors house, she would
eat the food that they offered her, and our neighbor told this to the DSS, 
re-interpreting it to mean: "She's hungry, they don't feed her".  It is my 
experience (both with my children and other children) that children like the 
novelty of eating somewhere other than in their own homes, but neither my 
neighbor nor the DSS would think of that.  We found out who had called the DSS
through the grapevine, and understood that it had nothing to do with good will
or wanting to do a good deed, but because of difference of opinions between
neighbors (on subjects other than children).

We told them to talk to our pediatrician; we would not allow them to come to our
house.  We felt this was an intrusion and an assault.  After talking to our
pediatrician, they dropped the investigation, they told us that our pediatrician
had given us "A+" marks (like the DSS was grading us!).  We felt insulted, as I
could not describe to you in this note.

The reason I wanted to write was to reply to:

590.23

> There is no repercussion by the DSS, if the story turns out to be
>    false.

I had a different experience.  After they determined that the accusations were
not true, they still kept our names in a computer list for a year
(in case somebody calls again!) and they keep our daughters names on another
list until they are age 18.  I'm not in favor of this kind of treatment by the
DSS.

590.24

> Several my of my wife's friends will not disipline their children in
>    public anymore just to avoid a visit from a prejudiced DSS
>    investigator. They are only human and are capable of making mistakes
>    or being "over zealous". And who wants to go through the hassle of
>    having a DSS person think that you beat your kids.

True.  I'm one of them.  I don't ever spank my children (at home or otherwise),
but I won't even scream at them in public.  I don't want another nut to make us
go through this experience again.  I've been lucky, since my children are very
well behaved and respond to loving discipline, so it is unusual that they have
to be reprimanded in public.

Good luck to all!

    I, too, know of an incident (similar to .24), whereas the child's
    daycare center "pumped and escalated" information from a 4-1/2 year
    old, such that reality became fantacy!
    
    .  Child would not go to bed.  Mom grabbed child by wrist and tugged.
    Child grabed railing post.  Mom lost grip.  Child fell, sitting down on
    last "carpeted" step.  Daycare reported to DSS that "child was thrown
    down an entire flight of stairs"!
    
    .  Mom was sweeping floor.  Child grabbed broom.  Mom patted child's
    keester with broom and said "NOT until I'm done".  Daycare reported to
    DSS that "child was beaten with broom".
    
    Ending:  Lawyer cost $750.  Pedi filled out reams and reams of forms
    and recommendations.  DSS required a complete full physical of child
    (for bruises and sexual abuse). Parents appeared before DSS several times. 
    Finally, DSS agreed that the stories "were escalated ... no substantial
    evidence", but "legally" kept the report "active" for one year and will
    be "available" should any future incidents occur (forever?).
    
    Mom is so panic'y about reprimanding the child, that the child is now
    in second grade, uncontrollable, undisciplined, overactive,
    manipulative ... and on one CRASH COURSE!  Dad is a real softie and
    easily caves into the child's demands.  Mom alienates herself from the
    child, as she has no power, no control, can't stand the situation and
    is too fearful to "get involved" in ANY TYPE of discipline.
    
    Guess who lost the most here?   THE CHILD!
    
    I know of another incident where a kid left the neighborhood and the
    mother feared abduction.  When she finally found him (hours later), she
    was wrought in fear and spanked him (britches on) and screamed at him.
    "Nice" neighbor called DSS, reported it and the claim WAS validated
    (since hitting did, in fact, occur!).
    
    Don't ever take DSS lightly ... especially here in Massachusetts!
    
    I know of other cases where REAL physical, MENTAL and SEXUAL abuse have
    occured ... DSS WAS involved and the kids ARE STILL in the environment.
    
    I've never had any run in's with DSS, and hope to God I never do!
    
    Dottie
                                                                    

    [my last defence of DSS, as we are on a good topic, but a rathole in
    this one]
    
    I'd much rather error in favor of the child.  Animals had laws that
    protected them long before children did.  When I was involved in the
    DSS system they had far more work than they could handle.  They weren't
    out looking for light weight stuff.  The situations they are involved
    in are far greater abuse situations than mild spanking.  Sometimes they
    are guilty of not getting involved when they should have.
    
    As to their records, they must keep them least they be charged with not
    doing their job.  Cooperation and full disclosure do a lot toward rapid
    closure.  I would not be insulted if they investigated me.  I'd be
    happy that someone else cared enough about the child to get involved.
    
    We'll also get the ones cases like the pulling the child from the stair 
    case [do you realize what pulling an arm can do? can you say
    dislocation?].  or a fearful treatment, perhaps counselling/parent
    counselling can help.  Please realize that current laws require that 
    nurses,school nurses, doctors, counselers, police, EMTs, etc report
    suspected cases to the proper authorities.
    The judicial system in Mass is tilted in favor of the parents.  Our
    daughter was not feed by her mother for the first week of her life.
    The DSS stepped in and removed the child.  Today my daughter still
    suffers from that treatment.  A year after removing my daughter, they
    gave her back to her bio-mother, who again did not take care of her.
    The DSS is chartered to help the child through helping the parents.
    You win some, you loose some.  The temperment of the social worker or
    that of the parent may varie.  Somewhere in Mass we are labled as
    spanking parents, full knowledge of DSS.  We are not concerned.
    ed

    First off, I tend to agree with Clay, in that those who write here are
    probably far more anti-spanking than the population at large. Possibly
    because those who support spanking frequently get blasted into oblivion
    for their views. I've seen some heavy flaming in this file for views
    that are pro-spanking, and I thank the moderators for their cautions in
    the first replies to this topic.
    
    Second....yes, we spank. It is, as unpopular as this may be with many,
    our chosen method of discipline. Some important guidleines we
    use....spanking is just for active rebellion against the parents. When
    a child kicks us, bites us, tells us "NO!, I won't do what you asked me
    to!!!", deliberately breaks our possessions, etc., the result is an
    immediate spanking. No threats, time-outs, or second
    warnings...actually no first warnings. Just a spanking. No anger, no
    loss of parental control. We keep our voices calm and rational.
    "Joshua, you are not allowed to do that. Go into the study and wait for
    me." Spankings are *never* administered in front of brothers or sisters
    or company, or whomever. They are a solitary affair. Once the spanking
    is over, liberal huggings and cuddling is administered. The child is
    required to apologize for his actions, and is immediately told he is
    forgiven. If we do find that the child's rebellion has gotten us angry,
    the child simply waits in the study until we are under control. Neither
    my wife or I has ever spanked one of our children in anger, and, God
    willing, never will. We recognize the potential for things getting out
    of hand, if we let anger get into the equation. I think this is how
    most abuse comes about.
    
    Now, what about if the problem is not one of rebellion, but just a
    child being a child and getting into trouble? We try to have the
    punishment fit the crime. Did you spill your milk by fooling around?
    Then you go get the rag and clean it up and get new milk, and wash out
    the rag. did you break the lamp by horsing around next to it? Then you
    help pay to have it fixed and you help fix it. Did you take something
    that belongs to someone else? Then you lose something of yours. (and
    give the thing back to whomever you took it from). Always an apology is
    required (and, by the way, we always apologize to our children when
    we've done something wrong).
    
    Our children do not seem to have gotten the notion that it is okay to
    hit us because they get spanked. (and we have three children who are
    all very different temperments). I believe it is because most of the
    time that a child hits an adult it is out of anger or frustration. They
    do not see this behavior modeled in us, as we never vent our anger and
    frustration by spanking them.
    
    For the record, our children are remarkably well-behaved (as commentd
    on often by total strangers, as well as those who know them). They are
    very happy, outgoing, well-adjusted children, who feel very secure in
    the love we give them. Hugs and kisses are second nature in our family
    and the love flows as easily from them to us as from us to them. I
    found it interesting that in a previous reply (sorry, don't remember
    which one) that the noter said she/he prefers to discipline "in love"
    rather than use physical means. We spank our children *because* we
    deeply love them, and care very much about how they grow up. (please!
    Not saying that the aforementioned noter does not care! Just thought
    that her choice of words was interesting.)
    
    I realize fully that ours is an unpopular position with many here, but
    felt I needed to cogently state our philosophy and ideas, even though
    they conflict with many. Some may think us abusers, but nothing could
    be further from the truth. Be tolerant of others viewpoints. 
    
    --dave--

re: .31

Dave,

I'm getting a slightly different twist on this than I did before.

>    use....spanking is just for active rebellion against the parents. When
>    a child kicks us, bites us, tells us "NO!, 

If your child:
	 - responds with sincere intent to comply within a reasonable time
	   frame, but not immediate ("I'll put away my clothes as soon as
	   I finish this puzzle.  I have only three pieces left")
	 - respecfully requests you reconsider ("I'd really to finish this 
	   book.  Is it OK if I stay up an extra 15 minutes?)

is that "active rebellion"?

>    If we do find that the child's rebellion has gotten us angry,
>    the child simply waits in the study until we are under control. 

If a child kicks or bites, it may be a sign that THEY are out of control.  
Do you wait until THEY have regained control?

Clay

    
    On the topic of control...
    
    There have been quite a few instances that I felt like spanking
    my kid, she was getting out of control and I was getting out of
    control. I think it helped me to walk out of the room to cool
    down a bit and re-evaluate the situation. For me, anger can cloud
    my judgement and escalate the situation. It was hard when my daugter
    was younger, she couldn't keep her lid form flying and we couldn't
    understand her.  I managed to get a hold of myself by repeating 
    "she is just a little kid" and let her cry or scream it out and 
    then talk about the real problem when everyone was calm. 
    
    Now that my duaghter is more mature, 5 1/2, everything can be 
    negotiated verbally. We don't really punish her either, I think.
    If she spills something, she should clean it up - this is not
    a punishment since adults do it all the time!!! We always give 
    her a second chance when breaking things is concerned, it takes
    experience to know how much force is required to dis-assemble certain
    things. We, adults, break things all the time. Breaking things on
    purpose is a different issue, but most kids are not naturally
    obnoxious!!! 
    
    I think what I am saying is that adults make mistakes too 
    and I would like my child to grow up to be able to deal with
    mistakes (anyone's mistakes) and make the best of situations.
    I think most humans don't mistakes on purpose and that focusing
    on the mistakes and the blame doesn't help to undo the mistakes.
    Instead, we should channel that energy of disappointment and anger
    to better the situations asap. We shouldn't focus how bad the
    situation is but how can we use our skills and energy to fix it and
    how to prevent it from happening again. 
    
    This is not easy for me since I was brought up with spanking
    and that I have a quick temper.
    I have to keep re-iterating to myself what my goal is in parenting.
    I want my daughter to grow up to be a happy and confident individual,
    who understands that nobody is perfect, most people try their best
    and that there are better ways to get people's attention than to
    spank their bums. Of cource, this is more work for me, trying to
    be creative and diplomatic, but it is worth it. I figure if I
    bother to find creative ways to get through to some thick skulls
    here at work, my daughter, who is my own flesh and blood should
    deserve better treatment.
    
    
    Eva.
    

    I've tried, but I really can't resist this topic any longer!
    
    
    My four children have taught me a lot about disipline.  They are four
    of the most laid-back, well behaved children you are likely to find. 
    Most everyone comments on thier behavior, and they also add "But what
    else would you expect with two very laid-back parents?"  I guess that
    means that some amount of behavior is inhereted.
    
    With that said let me now say that on occassion I do need to disipline.
    There are times when even my patience are exhausted.  Then, I look at
    which child I am talking to.  My oldest just needs a louder tone of
    voice, to bring her to tears.  Just yelling works well with her.  The
    second child, however, responds to nothing but force.  If I asked her
    to come, and she doesn't, she gets carried to where she is supposed to
    be.  If she is just plain rude, she gets spanked!  My third daughter
    never really went through terrible two's, and I can't remember doing
    anything other than yelling.  However, I sense that the four's are
    going to be much worse!
    
    The baby is only 7 months, and finally a boy!  Are boys different?  Not
    so far.  I really hope he turns out as well as the first three.
    
    Donna

I wonder if all would agree with the following:

Where we want to be with our child with discipline is-  by age **, he\she 
will listen/talk to me about these situations.

** What ever you believe/tailor for your child, I'm not sure)

Physical punishment will stop at some age.

Now, *if* this is agreed - is it not a matter of which road to travel to 
get there?

I believe that most any kid will not absorb physical punishment any better
than discussions at the age under (whatever your belief). The most
effective thing I can use on my son (age 3) is the removal of a certain toy, or
lately the banning of a favorite TV program. These methods are a result of
my attempt at instilling a sense of responsibility for his actions. I have 
always used something age-appropriate that is consistent with this 
current method. These are always labeled "rules". He will grow to
appreciate my rules, out of respect. 

If I used spanking, I would see that the child could draw the wrong
connection. I don't want my son to choose the easy way out - a spanking. I
know when I was little, a spanking was often a price I was willing to pay.
My father used spanking, I don't remember that much. What I do remember is
respecting my father enough to accept his direction on matters. I remember
as a *senior* in high school, being banned from a traditional wild night
planned around graduation. I asked, he said no - that was it. Was this
respect a result of spanking? - I don't think so. It was all the other
things he did. 

I want to be consistent with my son. I believe it is key to building a 
successful relationship with him. Consistent in this case means always 
finding an alternative to spanking. I don't want use something now that I 
will abandon later. I don't want the possibility of him mis-interpreting 
spanking in anyway. He will learn that each action has it's consequences. 
This concept is something I struggled with while growing up and it's
something I don't often see in other adults.

Hope I wrote this clearly enough. 
JR

    re .32 (I think)
    Clay,
    I have no problem with a child respectfully sayingf that he would like
    to finish something before complying, as long as I or my wife have the
    final say ("Josh , go get your coat on." "Just a minute, mommy, I want
    to finish building this Lego car." "I understand, Josh, but we need to
    leave now. Youmay finish when we come home. Put your coat on now") At
    this point, if he doesn't comply, it is actively rebeelling, and he
    would get spanked. If there is no reason for him to comply immediately,
    and his request is reasonable, it will almost certainly be granted. As
    a matter of fact we are attempting to teach him this very thing. What
    he tends to do, is just ignore us and keep doing what he wants. I
    consider this rebellion. We explain that if he'd just tell us he needs
    a bit of time, and ask nicely for it, it would likely be fine, but
    ignoring us is not.
    
    As far as their calming down.....They are told to go wait in the study
    when they have disobeyed us, and often go in kicking and screaming.
    They are told that we will be in when they are through (this is for the
    5yr. old and the 3.5 yr. old....21 mon. old a bit young to understnad
    this yet.) Length of time for them to calm down varies, but they
    usually want to get the spanking over with and proceed to the hugs, so
    it is usually relatively quick.
    
    I am in "violent agreement" with .35, that consistency is *THE* key to
    success with whatever disciplinary method you choose. And for those who
    may feel spanking is the easy way out, or that we don't want to take
    the time or effort to be more creative, I totally disagree. I takes as
    much effort and committment to stick *consistently* with this method of
    discipline as with any other. I personally hate yelling or screaming at
    kids. I never liked it as a child, I don't like it as an adult, and I
    feel it is degrading to them. I am much more out of control when I
    yell, than when I spank. My wife says that as a child she despised
    being yelled at...made her feel worthless and insignificant. A
    spanking, however, administered *not* as a last resort, but wehn the
    parent was in total and calm control, drove the point home and allowed
    her to feel better about herself. I know our children beg us not to
    yell at them, and we go nowhere, discipline wise, when we do. As a
    matter of fact, it actually seems to make things worse. They know we
    are out of control, and so do we, and it is not a pretty scene.
    
    My thoughts on the key points in discipline:
    1) be utterly totally consistent, no matter how inconvenient.
    2)remain as calm as is humanly possible. This includes tone of voice.
    3) Give unconditional forgiveness and physical love as soon as possible
    after the disciplinary action.
    
    I think these hold for any method of discipline.
    
    --dave--

    I am very distraught at this time.  I just got a phone call from
    my boyfriend saying that one of our best friend's daughter's was
    just taken away by DSS.  I guess that this little girl's daycare
    called DSS because of constant bruises on her shins and the undersides
    of her forearms (a typical place for bruises on a small, clumsy child)
    and they came to the daycare center and took her.  The little girl
    is now at the hospital being checked out by a doctor to see what
    may have caused these bruises.  She's only 3 years old and is scared
    and won't talk to anyone when they ask her how she got the bruises,
    which is only making matters worse.  They told my friend that it
    would be at least 6 weeks before she would be able to see her daughter,
    much less get her back.
    
    Let me fill you in a little on my friend.  She is divorced.  She
    has another daughter that is 7 years old.  She is hispanic.  She
    collects welfare.  She goes to school full time for word processesing
    and office management.  Her house is always spotless.  Her children are
    always clean and well dressed.  She has watched my 5 month old son
    on several occasions and he is always smiling and laughing when
    I pick him up, he is always clean and he is never hungry.
    
    She is at my house right now and is in a total state of panic. 
    She told my boyfriend that she had noticed the bruises on her daughter
    and was afraid to say anything to the teachers at the daycare for
    fear that they would think she was trying to cover something up
    or that she was possibly trying to accuse them of abusing her daughter.
    
    I do not believe that my friend has abused her child.  I can't believe 
    that DSS just stepped in and took her child without interviewing her
    first, but that's what they did.  No warning, they just took her child.
    
    So, if your children have any unexplainable bruises on them, you
    best let someone know about them before this happens to you.
    
    Lori B.

How scary.  When I had my son at the pedi's last summer for his 3 year 
old check up his shins were an awful mess of cuts and bruises.  He was 
getting them primarily because he refused to peddle his trike, but 
would scoot it along with his toes instead so he kept getting whapped 
in the shins with the peddles.  It came up with her because I asked at 
what age I could expect him to use the peddles, and that he was 
beginning to look like a battered child.  She said that bruises on 
the shins do not usually raise red flags for just that reason - that 
it is a common area for getting banged up, and that it is an unusual 
target for hitting.  

Of course I am neither single nor Hispanic.  My prayers are with your 
friend.

Norma

    re .37  I wish the best for your friend - and I'm *SHOCKED* that they
    can do that!!!!  I DREAD to think what might happen if anyone decided
    to keep tabs on our Jason.  He's a super-active "I'm not afraid of
    ANYthing" kind of kid and almost always has a good bruise or cut on his
    head from his latest falling down.  He also has a tendency to bruise
    very easily, so his legs are always dotted with small bruises (and have
    been since he's been mobile).  I suppose that they are just trying to
    do their job, but I cannot even BEGIN to IMAGINE the impact that this
    must have on the CHILD!!!!  If someone were to show up and take away
    one of my boys for even a day, they'd completely freak out.  SIX WEEKS
    in forever when you're only 2 or 3.  You didn't mention, but hopefully
    at least they're allowing the child to stay with her ex-husband or her
    mom/dad/in-laws ??  In spite of all intentions, in cases where the
    suspect is found innocent, I wonder what they do to help repair the
    relationship between parent and child after the child returns home??
    
    
    re .36 Two (I think) *VERY* important steps in the discipline process that
    were left out in .36, would be talking with the child to make sure that
    a) the Child TRULY understands why they are being punished, and b) a
    very strong emphasis placed that says that the punishment is because of 
    bad BEHAVIOR, not bad child - it's quite easy for a little one to think
    that you don't like them.  I remember as a child being punsihed and
    never really understanding WHY I was being punished, let alone having a
    way to understand alternative appropriate behavior.  One time that
    sticks out the most was when I was about 10, I had just fed the cats
    and dogs and they were gobbling down their food REAL fast.  The
    previous night I had heard the word 'bastard' in a movie, and while I
    didn't know what it meant, I understood the context enough to be able
    to use it in the sentence  "Gee, Look at those bastards eat!!"  Before
    the words were out of my mouth my face had been slapped a few times and
    I was sent to my room.  I HONESTLY had NO IDEA what it was I did or
    said that caused my mother's reaction.  I also knew there was NO WAY
    that I could talk about it.  It was two weeks before I saw my father (my
    parents are divorced) and was finally able to ask if bastard was a bad 
    word, so it was only then that I understood the punishment.  In the
    meantime, it grew a little deeper inside of me that my mother hated me
    and wished I wasn't ever born.
    
    That was 18 years ago, and I remember it like it was yesterday.  So,
    while I *DO* say that a spanking (and that's one hit on the butt) is 
    sometimes necessary, I think that you should *FIRST* identify the bad
    behavior, and be sure that the behavior was done INTENTIONALLY!!  For
    eaxmple, pushing someone down the stairs is a punishment worthy of a
    spanking, but if the push was actually accidental because someone lost
    their footing, then it's NOT punishable.  So, I disagree with the
    philosophy that 'If it's worth a spanking once, it's worth it every
    time', as opposed to the philosophy of something like 'Intentional
    negative behavior will not be tolerated'.  They're just kids.  YOU
    would expect different treatment for yourself depending on
    circumstances, the same must be given to them.
    
    If you're speeding because you want to get home faster, you deserve a
    ticket, but if you're speeding because you have to get someone to the
    hospital quick, you'd expect that the situation would demand different
    action from the cop.  I honestly believe you MUST keep this in mind
    when dealing out punishment, and make the punishment suit the crime.
    
    Finally .... someone else had mentioned that the older a child gets,
    the less that physical punishment is necessary.  I have found this to
    be VERY true in our house.  My oldest son hardly ever gets (or needs!)
    a spanking.  The 2-year old gets (and needs) his share, but it gets to
    be less, and I'm sure it will continue to be less.  Neither child is
    necessarily any better behaved than the other, just that the older one
    realizes that there is a very definite line, after which he crosses,
    he'll get his fanny spanked, so he knows how far he can push and when. 
    The 2 year old is catching on.
    
    Since none of us got that instruction manual, we all need to do what we
    think is best ....  Good Luck!
    

    
    RE: 37
    
    Lori, Please tell your friend that my wife and I are praying for
    her and her daughters. I don't even want to think about what will
    happen if she gets arrested because of this.
    
    Guy
    

    It's important for us all to remember that child abusers and child 
    molesters don't look any different than you or I.  They can be uncle
    Bill, cousen Salley, neighbor Joe.  A spouse sometimes doesn't
    realize [or want to admitt] that their spouse is quilty of anything.
    Both they and the child need assistance.
    
    There are symptoms that trained professionals look for.  Thats why we
    pay them.  To retain a child, they have to have enough evidence to
    convince a judge.  If a child is taken, the perferred temporary 
    placement is a relative's home.
    
    on a personal note, when our [adoptied] daughter was being starved by
    her mother, nor relative nor neighbor bothered calling DSS for one
    week.  No one guessed that nice Mrs X could do such a thing to the 
    child, after all, she did raise one other child, didn't she?
    Mistakes can be made.  I'd still error on the side of the child.
    If we were a victum of a mistake, I'd be working with the DSS to
    help resolve the issue. Resistance can tigger other flags.  Some
    of the thoughts even go back to the story in the Bible where two women
    were fighting over a child, the judge offer to cut the child in two
    and give each women half.  The real mother decline in favor of
    saving the child even if it meant she would lose him.
    Sorry if I seem slanted toward the workings of the DSS, but I've seen
    the other side.  We don't hear about the positive things they do,
    how they work through problems and save families.  We hear in the news
    the times they error and return a child to parents who in turn do
    further harm to the child..
    sorry for rambling.
    ed
    

The trouble is Ed, that even trained professionals can become over-zealous
in their job.  There is no question that this happened in England a few years
ago.  There are always people out there who for some reason think they want
to do the world a favour and BECOME trained professionals so they take their
zeal into the job.

And then there are always "do-gooders" who report cases of "child abuse" ...
and by the time they actually report, the story has been inflated out of
proportion like Chinese whispers!

There are similar horror stories from the CAS (Children's Aid Society) here
in Canada becoming over-zealous ... 

The problem is that the Children's aid organisations are so over-worked,
and they have few staff for investigation, and so tend to go on what is
reported to them -- so we end up with too many cases of guilty until
proven innocent.  It's terrible.

Stuart

    First of all, I'd like to thank everyone (on behalf of my friend)
    for the prayers and support.
    
    My friend's boyfriend called last night to give us an update on
    what was happening with the little girl.  When they got her to the
    hospital a complete check was done including x-rays and blood work.
    Her pediatrician was also called in.  The first thing the pediatrician
    said was, "I've known this family for 7 years and in my opinion,
    there is no way that this woman has abused her child".  When the
    blood work came back they found out that the little girl has very
    low platelets, which is what is causing the bruising.  She has been
    turned over to her mother, but unfortunately, because of the low
    platelets she has to stay in the hospital for about a week for more
    tests.  I'm relieved to find out that my friend was not abusing
    her child (even though I was positive that this wasn't the case)
    but I'm still upset to know that this child may be very sick.  I'm
    still asking for prayers and positive thoughts for hopes that she's
    o.k.
    
    Thanks again,
    Lori B.

Having had an incident with the DSS that never even came close to having my kids
taken away, I'm petrified to hear this has happened to your friend.

I'm trying to find out  through other sources about what's legal to do by the
DSS.  Seems to me that no warning is not fair.  I have opened a topic in the
MASSACHUSETS conference to try and find out more info.  Perhaps this would
be a good place to continue this discussion.

In our case, we sent the DSS to talk to our pediatrician and that cleared things
out.  If your friend has one that could vouch for her, maybe that could be a 
start.

Do let us  know how this ends up, maybe in the UPSAR::MASSACHUSETTS conference
note 822, if people think this is a rathole for this conference.  Moderator, 
could you let us know what you think?

    It sounds like the DSS probably acted properly in this case.
    
    The main way, though far from the only way, a young child gets
    bruises on the back of the upper arms is by having an adult's
    fingers wrapped tightly around it, and the most common reason an
    adult grabs a child's upper arms tightly enough to bruise them is
    that he or she is shaking the child.  And shaking the child causes
    the child's brain to to bounce around inside the skull, which
    causes blood vessels to rupture, which causes usually irreversable
    brain damage and can cause immediate death if the rupture is big
    enough.
    
    If a child service worker sees a small child with a row of bruises
    on the back of one or both upper arms, he or she is going to get
    that child out of the family *immediately* because the child might
    be dead or crippled by morning if there's another shaking
    incident.  A child with a platelet disorder will be bruised by a
    quite ordinary grip, but the social workers can't be sure until
    after the blood tests come back -- if the brain has been damaged,
    there will be a couple of chemicals that are present in abnormal
    amounts, so there's not much ambiguity about it.  
    
    If you see a row of bruises on the back of your child's arms, and
    you know you aren't holding your child that way, it would be a
    good idea to  start looking at the other people who are around the
    child who might be unaware that shaking is dangerous. 
    
    --bonnie

I could not work this morning after having read about .37. My reply ( .43)
came a little late, since this morning you updated us with the good news of
her return.  My apologies to the other noters, who might think I'm out of 
sinch.  I get a daily update on the notes in the morning from a job run at 
night, so I hadn't read your reply.

Your friend and her children are still in my mind, and it's wonderful that 
something positive is coming out of it. 

Keep us posted!

 From a recent note:
 
 > And then there are always "do-gooders" who report cases of "child abuse"
 > ... and by the time they actually report, the story has been inflated out of
 > proportion like Chinese whispers!
 
 Likewise, there are plenty of peaple ready to believe, pass along, and
 perhaps distort or exaggerate stories about over-zealous social workers
 believing false accusations of child abuse.
 
 I am sure that .37 was entered in good faith, and I have no objection to the
 fact that it was entered.  But I hope those who accepted it at face value and
 made judgements as to "right" and "wrong" in the matter will be a bit more
 cautious next time.
 
 The story was based on information stated to be at least third hand.  It was
 a report about something that had just happened, derived from a participant
 (the mother) who could not be expected to be either objective or accurate
 (given the circumstances).  At least some of the information was implausible
 (e.g.  "she won't see the child for at least six weeks"), and in hindsight
 was clearly wrong.  This doesn't mean that it should not have been entered,
 or should have been disregarded.  But readers should surely have been
 circumspect.   
 
 If I were a daycare provider, and had a child with unusually many and severe
 looking bruises, and a parent who seemed to be afraid to discuss them, I
 would worry about child abuse.  I would also be legally obliged to report it
 to DSS, and they would be obliged to investigate and perhaps intervene within
 the confines of their own procedures and the general due process constraints
 that bind them.  It appears that what happened may have been just what should
 have happened.  It also appears that the child is now better off because of
 what happened.  It is plausible that the child was suffering from neglect, in
 that the mother did not herself adequately inquire into the cause of the
 unusual bruises, or discuss them with either the care provider or her doctor. 
 But it would be risky to conclude that on the basis of at least fourth hand
 reports.
 
 It is true, as some have said, the DSS workers can make mistakes.  But so
 what?  Who can't?  If the possibility of damaging mistakes was a bar to
 action, almost nothing that we do would be possible, including parenting, and
 society could not function.  We know that thousands of children suffer each
 year because of neglect and abuse.  How many children will anyone suggest are
 removed from their parents because of false abuse accusations?
 
 
 		- Bruce
 

re: .47
    
> I am sure that .37 was entered in good faith, and I have no objection to the
> fact that it was entered.  But I hope those who accepted it at face value and
> made judgements as to "right" and "wrong" in the matter will be a bit more
> cautious next time.
 
> The story was based on information stated to be at least third hand.  It was
> a report about something that had just happened, derived from a participant
> (the mother) who could not be expected to be either objective or accurate
> (given the circumstances).  

    Excuse me but I spoke with the mother and the mother's boyfriend
    immediately after it happened and again several hours later when
    things had calmed down and got the story told to me exactly the
    same way it had been told to me the first time.  The information
    was second hand on my part, not third hand.
        
>  At least some of the information was implausible
> (e.g.  "she won't see the child for at least six weeks"), and in hindsight
> was clearly wrong.  This doesn't mean that it should not have been entered,
> or should have been disregarded.  But readers should surely have been
> circumspect.   
 
    Yes in hindsight this was clearly wrong, but only because they found
    good reason why the child was bruised and it was determined right
    away that it was not child abuse.  DSS clearly stated to the
    mother that it would be at least 6 weeks before she would allowed to 
    have her daughter back, because that is how long it takes for the case
    to go through the court system.  They did not state that she could
    have her daughter back if it were determined that she had not been abused.
    
 > It appears that what happened may have been just what should
 > have happened.  
    
    How would you react if you were waiting for your child to get off
    the bus and you were greated by one of the teachers from the school
    and were told that you had to go to the school because there was
    a problem and once you got there was greated by a DSS social worker
    and told that they were taking your child because of suspected child
    abuse.  I think you may have freaked out a bit!
    
 > It also appears that the child is now better off because of
 > what happened.  It is plausible that the child was suffering from neglect, in
 > that the mother did not herself adequately inquire into the cause of the
 > unusual bruises, or discuss them with either the care provider or her doctor. 
 > But it would be risky to conclude that on the basis of at least fourth hand
 > reports.
 
    Perhaps the child is better off now but in no way was this child being 
    neglected (IMO and the opinion of her pediatrician).  The bruises were
    in places that are usual for small children to be bruised and
    therefore were overlooked.
    
    Yes, I was extremely upset about what had happened when I entered
    the note.  But the main reason for me entering the note was not
    for sympathy for my friend, but rather as a warning to parents that
    if your child has any weird marks, scrapes, cuts, or bruises on
    their bodies, you best have them checked out with a doctor or discuss
    them with your daycare provider/teacher so as not to have to go
    through the terrifying few hours that my friend went through.
    
    Lori B.
    
    P.S.  I still have not found out the status of the little girls
    health.  I'm hoping that she's o.k.  Her mother has been at the
    hospital around the clock, so I have not been able to get in contact
    with her.
 
                           

    re. .39:
    Patty, 
    I absolutely agree, and it was an oversight that I did not include what
    you so carefully stated. We alwyas include both in our disciplinary
    procedures. The simple question, "What did you do wrong?" is alwyas
    asked before we spank, and they have to know, before we would continue.
    There have been times when we've found that what happened was
    unintentional, and the spanking was aborted then and there, *and* we
    apologize for misinterpreting the situation. And if there is *any*
    concept they are clear on, it's that we unconditionally love them, and
    nothing they can do is bad enough for that to stop. But, they also know
    that we are sometimes very dissapointed by what they *do*, that certain
    behaviors are wrong and will not be tolerated, and it is exactly
    because we love and care for them that unacceptable behavior is
    punished. The love is unconditional, and they seem to know that very
    clearly. But it is a very important point, that I'm glad you raised.
    
    --dave--

    
    Re; 21 Thanks for the hugs Dottie! Thankfully, my daughter hasn't
    made being a single parent that difficult, though there have been
    times when I've been close to breaking point. I think being a single
    parent has a lot to do with the way I feel about spanking.
    
    Re; 26 & 33. Eva, what can I say? I agree with everything you said
    & I feel the same! Thank goodness! The reason I entered this note
    was that I was beginning to feel maybe I was very much alone in
    believing that spanking can & ought to be avoided.
    
    Re; 31 Dave, I respect your views absolutely. I don't think people
    who spank their children are abusers, I just know it wouldn't work
    for me. How can there really be rights or wrongs when parents are
    doing what they believe to be the best way to bring their children
    up. Also, from what I've read here, I think mine is the unpopular
    position, rather than yours!
    
    Regards,
    
    Liz

    
    I believe that if the DSS makes one wrong desision, it is too many!
    
    I also would like to know the authority they actually have in this
    state.  
    
    Lets say they do take your kid away because of someone accusing
    you of some kind of wrong doing....lets say an irate ex wife?  Do
    they really bother to check into the reasons?  Do these people
    know what they put the parents through?  I really don't think so!
    I think there should be some compentation!  
    
    Also, what do the DSS people do when they receive letters from 
    people who don't even live in the state....1700 miles away?  
    
    How much is enough?  
    
    	Hal

    Re my own reply # .42
    
    It was brought to my attention most politely that the term Chinese
    whispers may not be known to many people, and it might therefore
    be considered a racial slight.  Let me describe the term ...
    
    Chinese whispers is the name of a children's game where you take a 
    number of children and put them in a ring.  You whisper some idea to
    one child in the ring and ask them to pass it on until it gets to the 
    last child in the ring, whereupon the initial phrase and the last phrase 
    are compared.  Usually the idea gets totally distorted and blown out of
    proportion.

    How the "game" got its name, I don't know, but I've known it by that 
    name for over 30 years, both here in Canada, and in the UK, so there
    is most definitely no racial slight intended on my part, and if there
    is anyone who feels slighted, I'll be the first to apologise.  I had
    assumed, obviously incorrectly, that the game would be well known by
    that name.
    
    Stuart

	The discussion of DSS and how much power they have and whether or not 
they ought to have that much power is a fascinating topic BUT...

	It's straying from the base note.

	Please stick to the topic.

Tracey
Parenting co-mod

    Such a lively subject, what a way to start my day!
    
    Anyway....from where I sit, first and most important what information
    do you have on the child's platlet condition, we're still praying on
    this end!
    
    In our house spanking is for *major* offenses such as the time AJ ran
    out in front of me at the Mall parking lot.  I pulled him back told
    him he had done something "VERY DANGEROUS", (he learned those words
    quite early thanks to his grampa) and told him he would be spanked for
    doing dangerous things.  He got three "love pats" on his butt *after*
    explaining why, followed by hugs and being told I didn't want to see
    him hurt. (so what did he really feel through the thickness of a diaper
    anyway?)
    
    AJ has had a nonstop series of bruises up and down his shins since he
    started walking, he's even been examined by neuro and ortho doctors to
    see if there is a reason he's so clumsy and kept falling, none
    fortunately!  Thankfully there's only a couple months when his legs
    arn't protected by pants.  I too had visions of DSS knocking on my
    door.  I will let him know my disapproval of touching things, after
    being warned at least 3 times by slapping his fingers, but not
    terribly hard.  I did change daycare situations at one point since he
    came home with bruises on his but, while still in diapers and NOT yet
    walking!  Subsequently a coworker told me she had pulled her daughters
    out of the same home for suspected abuse. I complained to DSS about the
    provider, and she's still in business!
    
    Our son's Godfather was suspected of child abuse/molestation about 3
    years ago through a friek accident.  He had taken his daughters, then 5
    and 7 fishing (the girls just *loved* fishing with dad, especially
    baiting the line yuck!) the older girl slipped over an embankment,
    dislodged a rock which landed on her lower back, while she was prone
    ing  the mud, she suffered a vaginaly tear due to the way the rock
    landed.  Naturally he took her to the hospital who questioned how the
    injury "really" happened, his wife had worked at this hospital as an RN
    and was known to them so no one is free of suspicion.  The children
    were not removed pending the investigation, but the family sure had a
    few extremely uncomfortable days.
    
    Lyn
    

    Sorry I haven't updated you on the child's platelet condition, but
    I hadn't spoken with my friend until a couple of days ago (she doesn't
    have a phone and I've been too busy to stop by).  The little girl
    is o.k. :-)  Evidently, she had had a bad cold which caused the
    loss of platelets.  When she got better, the platelets did not
    replenish themselves.  They had to give her more platelets while
    she was in the hospital and she's o.k. now.  They checked her for
    lukemia (one of many tests) and everything came back negative (thank
    God).
    
    I also got yet another update as to exactly what happened.  My friend
    had been noticing a few bruises on her daughter, but she wasn't
    concerned, because they were normal bruises that any child would
    get.  The morning of the incident the little girl's platelets dropped
    to an incredibly low level (she had 2 when you're supposed to have 
    200).  She evidently had drug her hand across her face and it caused 
    an immediate bruise.  When she got to school her teacher noticed the
    bruise on her face and then checked her legs and arms and there
    were more.  She immediately called DSS.  Evidently when there is
    a suspected child abuse case, DSS steps in and takes the child for
    fear that the child may be beaten more severely if placed back in
    the home.  I realize that DSS was just doing their job, but it was
    pretty scarry for my friend and her little girl.
    
    Lori B.