Conference moira::parenting_v3

    A kid who jabs another kid in the face, and then stands there with
    no emotion at all on his face, probably has serious problems,
    probably at home.  I'm not saying this as justification for what
    he did but because it makes a difference to what I'd do.
    
    The first thing I'd do would be to talk to the director about my
    concerns for my own child's safety.  I'd talk to the director
    because it's possible the teachers aren't telling him/her
    everything. 
    
    And then I'd suggest to them that this boy needs help.  This is
    the kind of behavior you get from a child living in an abusive
    home, or with a disrupted family (divorce, illness, death, parent
    off with the armed forces in the Middle East).  It just doesn't
    sound like the kind of bullying you get from a child who isn't
    adequately disciplined at home.  It sounds serious.  
    
    My action after that would depend on how satisfied I was that the
    school understood the situation and was taking steps to protect
    the other children as well as to help the boy with the problem. 
    Unfortunately your husband is partly right -- with the prevalence
    of abusive homes right now, you might well run across another
    similar situation in another daycare.  Though it doesn't sound to
    me like they're handling it terribly well.
    
    --bonnie

    .0 > Am I overreacting?  
    
    I'm not sure, but I would certainly not disregard the matter.  Even if
    you ARE wrong, your peace of mind will be destroyed.
    
    I would seek an immediate joint conference with the involved teachers
    and the director of the pre-school.  Accidents do happen in any
    setting, including the home.  And the fact that one boy was involved
    twice could be near coincidence.  Perhaps the staff can reassure you.
    The evidence you have cited doesn't directly convince me this is an
    evil bully.
    
    On the other hand, if he has a behavioral problem that they cannot
    control, you should be very concerned.  Not because of the possibility
    of injury as much as because that would suggest general incompetence on
    the part of the school.  If their negligence leads to a permanent
    injury, they are liable to a major lawsuit.  They have the right, the
    responsibility, and the selfish motivation to exclude this kid from the
    school if he really is a hazardous bully.  If they are treating the
    matter with indifference, it is pretty alarming.  Even if you are
    wrong, your concern is legitimate, and they should treat it seriously.
    Perhaps the truth is "in between," and they need a good push to pay
    more attention to this boy.
    
    I am a bit troubled by your anger at this kid.  Even if as bad as you
    fear, a pre-schooler doesn't get this way by _choice_.  A kid like that
    would be headed for a pretty miserable life, and deserves at least
    sympathy and perhaps intervention.
    
    		- Bruce

    I tend to agree with Bonnie.  This child has something going on in his
    life which needs attention.  I would contact the director and address
    the issue. 
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

I agree with the prior replies, except of a part of Bruce's.  The Eustachian
tube -- oops wrong note --.  No actually, I'm not particularly alarmed at your 
anger.  I would be angry also.  That doesn't mean, though, that I would call 
the child a "bully" to anybody else.  And as far as the "livid", I read that as 
being how you felt at the situation, including the kid AND the daycare center.

<FLAME ON>
	
	Your husband's statement is ridiculous

<FLAME OFF>

My children were in various kids of daycare for many, many years.  We NEVER 
encountered a child that was like the one you described.  There were a number 
of kids we didn't particularly care for.  There were even some that were 
disruptive kids.  But there was NEVER one who threatened their physical 
safety.

The daycare center's current mode of dealing with the child is not doing him 
any good.  I remember well how one of the disruptive kids in the previous 
paragraph was handled.  The daycare center director called the parents in and 
basically said "We can't handle <name>.  I'm sorry, but we can no longer care 
for him here after <date>.  Please find another daycare situation for him."  
This story had a happy ending.  We saw the child's mother later.  She said that 
her son had been put in a different environment in which he was getting more 
individual attention, and was thriving.  I doubt that it will be so easy with 
this child, but he certainly seems to need help -- but not at the expense of 
your child's safety.

Clay

    
    You didn't mention the ages of these kids... how old are they?
    Daycare must mean they are 4-5 yr olds?
    
    I agree with Bonnie.  I also think that if this kid is acting this way
    he sounds as if he is developing serious emotional problems.  
    Stabbing another kid in the face with a stick and throwing rocks AT
    people are not in my opinion 'boys will be boys' type behavior. This
    kids behavior shows that he is TRYING to hurt other people.  That is
    quite different from rough house tumbling with someone inadvertantly
    getting hurt as a by product. Its even different from 'just' picking on
    a weaker kid. This kid IS USING sticks and stones and they WILL hurt
    others. 
    
    This kid probably needs 'professional help'.  But in the meantime he
    is an unacceptable risk (IMO) to others and he should be removed from
    situations where he can act out this type of behavior and hurt other
    kids.
    
    If my son Matt were exposed to this kid I would would tell the Daycare
    Place that immediate steps must be taken.
    
    I would watch closely what the situation was and if I was not satisfied
    WITHIN A WEEK I would pull my son out of that place and find a safer
    place for him.
    
    There are risks and risks but this is not an acceptable one in my
    opinion.  Does some kid have to be blinded or loose his teeth before
    somebody DOES SOMETHING effective?
    
    Somebody has to TAKE CHARGE here and control this kid before someone
    is seriously injured!
    
    Jeff
    
    
    

    Idefinately agree with contacting the teachers and director of the
    daycare.  
    
    I also agree with the fact that something could be wrong at home, but
    you may not ever find out what exactly is wrong.
    
    Something has to be done, so don't be afraid to start the ball rolling,
    if you are not careful, your child or someone elses could be hurt next
    if this keeps up.
    
    My daughter was in a daycare that had a boy whom wanted to be the
    center of attention so to do so, he would push, hit, pull hair, and
    anything else he could think of to get the teachers to pay attention to
    him.  My daughter happened to be the one he was doing most of this to.
    In the end the school directors decided to notify the parents that they
    were going to have to find another daycare for him because he was
    disrupting the classroom all day even during naps and lunch.  
    
    I understand your anger, I was upset at what was happening too. 
    Sometimes I wondered if one of the other children might take up this
    disruptive behavior luckily this never happened.  
    
    When it all comes down to it, you have to keep your sanity, I mean for
    you to come to work wondering if your child will be next to be hurt it
    makes it really hard for you to concentrate until you pick up your
    child at the end of the day. 
    
    
    So....
    
    Talk to them about your concerns.

    I'm not angry at the bully.  I'm angry at the way the school is
    handling him.  No, I don't think his behavior is "typical boy", 
    either.  And frankly, my husband's response set me flying off the
    handle even more...
    
    The director is very aware of this situation-- the daycare is very
    small.  The age range of the children is 2 to 6 (it's a kindergarten,
    too), and older kids are dropped off there after school.  My son
    who was hurt is in this latter category.
    
    This kid is 5.  That's old enough to realize what he's doing is wrong.
    
    What really upset me was that I tried talking to the teacher who
    called, and explained that I was concerned about this kid because
    it's always this kid who's coming close to maiming other children.
    The woman replied that this kid is frequently blamed for anything
    that goes wrong at the school (because none of the other kids like
    him because he hurts all of them).  Well, yes, that's unfair, but
    that doesn't change the fact that he *did* throw the rocks, and he
    *did* stab the girl.
    
    I drove my oldest to school today, and will pick him up so that he
    doesn't have to go to the school.  I kept my other son home, because
    he's in kindergarten with the bully.  I don't know what to do.  I
    like the school, I like most of the teachers, I like most of the
    children, but this kid is a big risk factor.  I'm not willing to 
    risk my kids' safety.
               

    You said it all... 'this kid is too much of a risk'. If the daycare
    provider sees that she possibly going to lose customers because of
    this individual she might feel moved to do something.
    
    This kid is blamed for 'everything because he hurts people'. Because
    HE HURTS PEOPLE!! I would think he would not be liked for that.
    
    The problem is this kid, not you, your son or the daycare person, but
    the adults have to do something about it. I can't believe the daycare
    provider will continue to let this behavior continue if parents make
    their requirments known... and that requirement should be a reasonably
    safe place for your son to be. 
    
    Jeff

    I have been through a similar situation, though not near as severe.
    Josh (16 months) was being bitten often at daycare and it really
    bothered me.  After about the 3rd time I confronted the ladies in
    his room and told them that I was angry and upset.  From there I
    went to the director and asked her how biting incidences were handled
    (time outs).  I told her also how angry and upset I was and also
    explained that as Josh's mom I would want to be informed if he was
    biting, hitting, etc. so that we also could help with the behaviors
    at home.  Well, in the next two weeks Joshua was bitten five more
    times (hard enough to leave marks)!!!  Luckily, the daycare provides
    daily "report cards" that include diaper changes, food, naps, etc.
    to inform us of important events during the day.  One of the things
    on this "report card" is an area for "Accidents".  Well, all five
    of the biting incidents were noted on Josh's daily reports.  After
    wisely keeping these I took all five of them back to the director
    and explained that apparently whatever they were doing wasn't working.
    Come to find out--yes, it was one little girl doing all of the biting,
    and her parents HAD NOT been informed.  When the director did finally
    tell the parents the little girl quit biting!!!!  I know in my case
    I probably wouldn't even know if Josh was biting other kids--he
    is our only and we aren't around other kids aside from daycare.
    
    So I wonder if this bully's parents have been informed, how they
    deal with it, etc..
    
    Pam

    Oh, have I got one of these at my son's daycare!! There was one week
    that I swear my son was his victim all week. It started with a very
    deep scratch on his face (it bled for 2 days it was so deep and left a
    small scar), continued with comments all week of "so-and-so pushed me
    outside" (and when I questioned it, it seemed to be a deliberate push
    and not just that he fell into my son) and the week ended with me
    witnessing this kid taking a lego to seeing what my son's reaction
    would be to having it slammed against the side of his face. That one
    left a split in his skin within 1/8 of an inch from his eye. At that
    point I immediately questioned the happenings of the week and the
    girls were amazed that my son had remembered all the incidents. They
    seemed to handle the incidents "lightly" in my opinion. From that
    moment on we told our son to "rat" on this kid every time he does
    something and we gave our son permission to push this kid away (when
    provoke first) and just say "don't do that to me".  The
    following week I received a very demeaning comment from the director
    about my son "telling stories" and my comment was that he just happens to
    have an excellent memory and isn't afraid to tell me when someone does
    something wrong - he is being brought up to know right from wrong,
    respect others and follow the direction of adults. 
    
    This particular daycare doesn't seem very strict with "time-out" rules.
    They like to explain to the kids what is right and wrong. 
    
    We will be moving soon but I personally think that there are "bullys"
    everywhere. The difference is what the daycare intends to do with the
    child. All I have been able to do I express that that child is a
    "risk". There isn't a day when some child isn't "hurt" by this kid. 
    Luckily, there has been no major incident. 
    
    To the base noter - I'd question how this kid is able to get ahold of
    rocks and sticks. These sure don't seem like appropiate "toys" for a
    daycare!!! (although a paint brush could be just as dangerous as a
    stick and a baseball just a dangerous as a rock).
    
    Andrea

    
    
    
    We also had a similar incident.  I won't go into details. Suffice it
    to say that it occurred in the boys' bathroom.  (It wasn't anything which
    will leave my son scarred, thank goodness.  I'm also thankful that my 
    four year old son felt he could talk to me about it.)
      
    The director of the daycare talked to the parents and tried to reason 
    with them.  They--particularly the father, was in denial about his son's 
    actions.  
    
    The daycare director then made a phone call from MA. to Texas to the
    previous daycare.  She found that the child was also very disruptive
    there as well.  Eventually, she gave an ultimatum to the parents: get 
    their son into therapy or her daycare would no longer care for him.   
    Because the parents still would not see to the child's problem, she 
    let him go.  He was consuming too much of the staff's time in their 
    efforts to supervise him to assure that he was not going to harm the 
    other children.