Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I can only offer an objective opinion because my daughter is still
    a baby and we haven't encountered this type of situation yet.  But your
    note prompted some very strong ideas about childcare.
    
    It appears that Ann and Austin are being raised under totally different
    styles of parenting, one being much more lenient than the other in
    terms of discipline. I happen to agree more with your style of
    encouraging sharing, displaying appropriate behavior, and not giving in
    to every whim. But there is more going on here.
    
    The first thing to look for in any childcare situation is that the
    caregiver share the same ideas on discipline and values as the parents
    do.  While you may in general like the care that your mother-in-law
    provides, it appears that your parenting styles are different.
    
    It's not clear to me that Austin will be harmed by Ann's behavior.  If
    he were in any other day care situation there may very well be another
    child that acts the same way.  However, he is not in general day care,
    he is with relatives.  If Ann acts this way and gets away with it, then
    Austin will probably be allowed to do whatever he wants also. And
    Austin would probably benefit from having someone else to play with.
    
    It may be time to reevaluate the situation and move Austin to a place
    where he will have other children his age to play with. It seems that
    your mother-in-law has her hands full, maybe more than is best for the
    children.
    
    Just my opinion, but I react strongly to this type of day care -
    especially when one grandparent is being asked to care for so many
    children.  There is a lot of pressure on her to be a grandparent, and
    at the same time she has all the demands of a licensed family day care
    situation.
    
    You know the situation best, and should go with your own instincts. 
    Also, how do you feel after haveing a day ot two to calm down and think
    about it?
    
    Mary  

    I would suggest a conversation with the care provider (M-I-L) to see
    what her reaction is to things that go on at the house during the day. 
    The way you described the situation, I was led to believe that Grandma
    gave in to Ann because of the reaction/attitude of Ann's mother.  She
    didn't want the mother as the enemy.
    
    If it turns out that mother-in-law doesn't make the odds a little
    fairer during the day, then you have something to be concerned about.
    
    -sandy
    

    I wouldn't worry about Austin.  He's not going to suffer at all, in
    fact I think his day care arrangement is almost ideal (it would be
    totally ideal if not for those days when all the children are there-
    5 kids is kind of alot).  The only problem I see is between you and
    your sister in law (Ann's mom).  I don't blame you for being upset, I'd
    have been furious too.  All I can suggest is that in your house you
    set the rules:  if little Ann misbehaves you take charge.  Outside
    your house you have to decide whether to keep still and keep the peace 
    or risk a family feud (I assume from your note that talking to Ann's
    mom doesn't work).    But, again, I wouldn't worry about Austin.

    
    
    
    As hard as it is to, Anne needs to be told in a polite voice as possible
    (first) that those were Austin's gifts and that he was going to open
    them in his own time (however long that was)... I've seen a similar
    circumstance to yours with some friends of ours ...  Our friend's 
    daughter took her time opening gifts and the sister-in-law's son
    was in a hurry (much the same as your situation as I see it)... Well
    our friend told her nephew (nicely at first) that the gifts belonged
    to her daughter and that he was not to open them.. Well of course he
    persisted, and her warnings thus became more severe... I don't remember
    how the sister-in-law reacted the boy did eventually stop...
    
    I know noone wants to alienate family, but the other parents have got
    to understand that their parenting style is different from yours and 
    that since it is your child's birthday you make the rules...  As for 
    your M-I-L, she's wrong.. To me it appears she is trying to play favorites
    which in the long run will have a negative impact.
    
    As for changing daycare, I don't know...  That's a tough call, but it
    might be interesting to find out if this is how all incidents are 
    handled...  You should be able to also explain to your son the
    situation and explain that Anne isn't as 'disciplined' (without saying
    she's a brat ;-))...
    
    Just my opinions...
    
    	John
    

	Deep down, I know that my m-i-l is a fair person and I don't think
  she would bow down to Ann.  Also, I know that our parenting styles are quite
  similar just from talking to her.  She has mentioned more than once that she
  does not agree with the way Ann's mother is bringing up Ann and has even gone
  as far to say that she is glad she has Ann five days a week because she is at
  least being disciplined by her.  That is why this whole birthday scene threw 
  me for a loop.

  	I guess what is really bugging me the way Ann is unkind to Austin and
  again, I'll bet my m-i-l does not condone that in any way, but I'm sure it
  still happens.  (I guess I sound like an over-protective mother)  I just
  don't want the main person that my son interacts with during the day to be
  unpleasant and fresh to him.  I'm afraid this will either make him think it
  is okay to be fresh or make him wary of people in general.

   thanks for these and any more opinions-----------MM

    This one's a toughie because I can understand what you're feeling and
    the painful process of decision making.  I have a neighbor who is
    raising her son much the way your in-laws are raising their daughter
    (see Neighbor Problems note for a more detailed explanation).  My
    neighbors son and mine were all at the same in-home day care provider
    when they were younger.  The day care person is not a relative of
    either party.  I had many concerns with my sons and the neighbors child
    but after talking to my provider, she assured me that she had the kid
    pegged and he didn't get away with things at her house.  Of course, she
    could be objective as neither child was hers.  I, personally, wouldn't
    use a relative as the primary day-care person.  As ideal as it seems in
    the beginning, it can only lead to the doubts and problems you're now
    experiencing.  I'm sure many people were able to have relatives watch
    their kids with great success but the downside is too hard for the
    family.  
    
    I'm rambling here but I just feel so badly for you.  Finding a new
    provider is a MAJOR pain - I had to go through it once several years
    ago and NEVER want to do it again (I ended up back with my old provider
    after 3 months of shuffling the kids to three other people).  The only
    reason I had to leave my regular was her mothers illness.  
    
    I don't know the relationship you have with your m-i-l.  I think a real
    heart-to-heart is called for between the two of you.  I can understand
    her wanting to keep peace at the birthday party but would be concerned
    if your sis-in-law started making demands on her for the daycare piece. 
    Is this her daughter or daughter-in-law?  My sis-in-law makes all kinds
    of demands on her mother which I would NEVER make.
    
    Good luck with whatever decision you reach.  I wouldn't suggest too
    many "family gatherings" unless they can't be avoided for awhile!

    
    Personally, I'd bet that Ann behaves quite differently at daycare than 
    she does when her mother is around.  Children just know whose chains
    they can yank and I think Ann probably knows she can't get away with
    the nasty behaviour at your mother-in-laws.   If all other aspects
    of your daycare arrangements are good, then I'd stick with it if it
    were me.
    
    Carol

  Myself and Ann's mother are both daughter-in-laws.

  I'd love to have a heart-to-heart with my mother-in-law about this, in fact
  we are pretty close and have had deep discussions in the past on other subjects.

  But those conversations just sort of happened.  I don't know how to bring this
  up without putting her on the defensive.

  any suggestions??------MM

    re: .0
    
    As others have said here, what you really need to be concerned about is
    your m-i-l's attitude/style in the daycare situation.  I know you
    described how Ann treated Austin while you were in a full-family
    situation (in Maine, at the birthday party) but in both of the
    instances, Ann's parents were around and she probably knows she can
    "get away with it".....have you ever had the opportunity/time to
    observe the kids together when they're with your m-i-l without Ann's
    parents there ??  
    
    IMO, I'd spend some time observing the kids together, as unobtrusively
    as possible, while they're in the daycare situation, as well as your
    m-i-l's reaction if some of the behavior you described occurs.  Once
    you can see how they get along without the parents around and how your
    m-i-l handles it, maybe it'll be a little clearer what, if anything,
    you need to do.
    
    as far as family gatherings, I'd do as one noter suggested and maybe
    hold off on any more for a while unless you can't avoid it.  But if you
    do have get-togethers, tak to your m-i-l beforehand about what happened
    at the birthday party and why......maybe the two of you working
    together can help both kids and Ann's parents.
    
    Finally, when it comes to sharing, the attitude (only being nice if she
    wants to), I keep reminding my son that, just because s/he does it,
    doesn't make it "ok" for him to do/not do it......yes, his feelings
    have been hurt by other kids' actions in the past, but as long as he
    continues to get positive reinforcement from other areas, he'll be ok.
    
    best of luck to you.....it's a tough situation and I hope it works out
    for you.
    
    Debbi
    

    It's also possible that Ann, being in a stressful situation with
    the whole family around, and off her own territory, reacted with
    what I think is called "acting-out" behavior, converting her fears
    and discomforts into anger, rudeness, and general misconduct. 
    It's entirely possible that *she* behaves differently in the
    daycare situation on your mother-in-law's territory. 
    
    I remember my in-laws' 50th anniversary a couple of years ago when
    Steven was 4 and the terror of the party -- I try to forget, but
    some things are engraved permanently on the brain :)  Steven was
    an unholy terror; if we tried to discipline him, m-i-l complained
    about our being mean to him, if we didn't, s-i-l complained he was
    picking on her kid.  It got to where we could only say, "Hang on,
    it will be over in 26 hours," or however long we had left. 
    
    But as soon as we got home, he was fine.  In fact, as soon as we
    were close enough to leaving that he could comprehend it -- "we're
    going home in the morning" -- he was fine. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    My parents have "babysat" their 5 grandkids for 12 years now.  [Never
    all 5 at once though!] 
    
    I've observed that when Grams,Gramps and mom and dad are all together,
    there is some confusion over who sets the limits.  The kids all seem to
    act-out in one way or another and competing for Grandma's attention
    seems to be the primary goal. {Even my darlings!} My children know Dad 
    and I set the limits and there will be no schmoozing grandparents to get
    what you want, aka "The United Front".
    
    I could have written this basenote last year!  My niece's name is also
    Ann. (we called her the terrorist!) My son is kind of unaggressive and
    introverted.  He ~was~ an easy target for Ann! She was his first real 
    exposure to aggression.  
    
    Ann's parents had a messy separation and divorce, when Ann and Dad were
    around, we endured some pretty dreadful family gatherings. 
    
    Like you, I was concerned about my son Sean adopting her behaviors when she
    was acting-out. Sean is 3 years younger, she's big for her age, he's
    little, etc.. She often converted her behavior into violence toward Sean.
    We let everyone know [my parents, Ann, Ann's parents] that any form of 
    violence is unacceptable and if it didn't stop we would find other 
    daycare.  This caused some hurt feelings, but the violence stopped.
    It also became clear who was in control. [Mom and Dad]
    
    Sean has had to learn to deal with other aggressive kids, they're
    everywhere. Ann gave him a good head start.  She's now 9 and he's
    6, they have learned to tolerate each other.  I believe this is because
    WE [not her parents] set limits and stuck to them.
    
    Rochelle
    
    
          
    
      

    I'd say Ann is in big, big trouble, for which she can thank her
    parents' completely bizarre behavior.
    
    Kit

I wouldn't think Austin will be harmed by his exposure to Ann, as long as he
has plenty of opportunity to interact with other children who are more kind,
etc.......

Regarding the party:  how did Austin feel about having his presents opened?
He may still be too young to make a big deal of *opening* (notice I didn't
say PLAYING WITH) his presents.  If it made Ann happy and didn't make Austin
mad, then no harm done.  Sounds like the only one really upset was yourself.
If, on the other hand, Austin didn't like it, then EARLY intervention was/is
in order.  Ask her once to stop.  If she doesn't, then TELL her to stop.  If
she doesn't then remove the presents from her and hand them to Austin yourself.

It may make Ann's mother angry, but it leaves your m.i.l. out of the loop and
keeps Austin happy.

FWIW,
Kristen

P.S.  Did she really bring a wrapped present for her own daughter?????  Wow!
Perhaps she thought party favors would be overlooked?

    Maybe you could open a conversation with your MIL by talking about what
    a nice time you had on vacation with the family and getting around to
    the birthday party.  Just casually mention how Ann was opening the
    presents and you had really wanted Austin to open the presents
    (particularly the ones from your MIL).  Maybe at this point your MIL
    will jump in and let you know her feelings on the subject.  If she
    doesn't, you can judge her reactions so far and either end the
    discussion if you think she's getting defensive or continue on if she
    seems receptive.  With this approach you're not attacking her in any
    way, you're starting the conversation out on a positive note and you
    have the opportunity to see what her feelings are.  I know I can always
    tell when my MIL is getting upset about something I'm saying so I
    usually change the subject.
    
    If you want to take this approach it should probably be done soon -
    while the whole incident is still fresh in everyone's mind.
    
    Good luck!

	I know that Ann's parents behavior sounds really unbelievable, I spent
the whole week of our vacation in a daze, wondering how they could not realize
the harm they were doing.  Who knows, maybe everything will turn out fine for
Ann?  Her mom is truly one of the sweetest and kindest people I know with more 
patience than Job, which makes it all so much more bizzarre.

	re: .13  Yes, she really did bring a gift for Ann to Austin's party.
        That made me feel more sorry for Ann than angry. 

	All in all, your responses have made me feel much better.  I forget
sometimes that Austin is no longer a baby but a person in his own right and
though he is laid-back he has a strong personality and is pretty stubborn when
the issue at hand really matters to him.  In other words, to some extent he
can probably stand up for himself more now and I should probably let him.
And maybe when he sees my m-i-l reprimand Ann for bad behavior, he realizes 
that that is not acceptable.

	Wouldn't you think that we would have a behavior problem by now if
Ann were affecting Austin? (they've been together since 6 mos.)

thanks for all the replies--------MM

    This is in response to the basenoter, without looking at other notes
    (no time).
    
    1. Situation detrimental to Austin?  This is the way life is.  There
    are selfish people, unselfish people, good people and bad people.
    
    2.	Self esteem?  I think it would take a heck of a lot more than an
    untamed 3 year old to create a low self esteem in another toddler.
    
    3.	Pre-school?  50% of his class might be just like Ann!!
    
    4.	Mother-in-law?  If she is the nice person you say she is, I would
    let it go.  She probably felt uncomfortable in the situation and maybe
    felt she caused it.
    
    I really feel that kids need to work these situations out on their own. 
    I don't think it's detrimental to them to be in this negative
    situation (i.e., a spoiled child).  On the contrary, maybe it's good 
    for them to decide on their own if they want to get out of the situation.
    Maybe if they are pulled out of the situation by the parent time after
    time, when they are in the situation without the parent around, it will 
    only be worse (i.e., no one to help them).  On the other hand, in an 
    isolated incident such as the gift stuff, I would have spoke up and asked
    sis-in-law to hold on to Ann as it is Austins day!
    
    This is all my personal opinion and the way I prefer to parent. 
    Remember everybody is different!!!  Especially when it comes to
    parenting.
    
    Good luck in your decision!
    
    Joyce
                                                            

>    1. Situation detrimental to Austin?  This is the way life is.  There
>    are selfish people, unselfish people, good people and bad people.
>    
>    2.  Self esteem?  I think it would take a heck of a lot more than an
>    untamed 3 year old to create a low self esteem in another toddler.

In terms of detrimental, I think that if the adults around forever condoned
and even displayed this kind of behaviour, rather than the children, then
this would have and effect on behaviour and self-esteem.

Another point about sharing ...

Something I read somewhere ... you cannot and should not force a child to
share; it will only create terrible resentment.  (Remember your own youth
and being forced to share ?)  What you should do is encourage sharing, but
if a child refuses to share on first request then don't push it.  After
all the object in question does belong to the child.  The only case where
you should force the issue a little more is for items belonging to two +
children, but even then children will have a way of working this out on
their own.  I will now, for example, tell my kids, when fightinng over an
object: "I don't like this fighting over 'x'.  You will have to try to
work out a sharing arrangement that you can both be happy with for now.
I know that you can do it because you've done it before.  If you cannot
work out an arrangement, then I'll take 'x' until you can."  That usually
produces good results!

Stuart

    Good point, Stuart.
    
    I certainly wouldn't force my children to share their toys with a
    child who wasn't willing to share back. 
    
    --bonnie

    Another good point!  Sharing, when you think about it is a decidedly
    un-natural act, until we learn trust.  Remember for a young child,
    to share something is almost the same as giving it away.  Like mommy
    disappearing behind the shower curtain is the same as mommy gone away!
    So, while children will trust implicity a donor, they will similarly
    implicity distrust a taker!
    
    That kind of trust has to be learned ... and there are enough people
    out there to make that kind of trust very hard to learn even into
    adulthood!  There are still a number of people that I wouldn't trust
    to loan any of my tools to!
    
    Stuart

    We have a similar situation at our daycare with a *VERY* spoiled little
    boy (4 yrs).  He thinks *HE* is the center of the universe.  Sometimes
    he is nice to my boys, but for the most part he yells and screams and
    gets just what he wants -- much to everyone's frustration (including
    Mom).
    
    The babysitter is *WONDERFUL*, and the boys love her almost as much as
    she loves them, so we'd never DREAM of changing.  HOWEVER - we *DO*
    make a big deal about Patrick, and we use the opportunity to point out
    that if he continues with this behaviour he won't have many friends
    when he gets bigger and if he doesn't listen to big people (which he
    doesn't), that he'll end up getting in BIG trouble.  The boys are old
    enough to understand that, while Patrick is a good person, he can be
    very mean, and some of the things that he does are very bad.
    
    Use Ann as an example - don't hide the truth from Austin.  If he wants
    to know how come she's so mean to him, just tell him that maybe it's
    because no one ever taught her how to be nice ... or maybe (???) it's
    because no one is very nice to her??? (at home).  Try to find out why
    she acts like that - Austin should be able to understand.  OR, if she's
    just a brat, you can tell him that sometimes she just acts like a brat. 
    Of course, expect all of this to get back to Ann, and her mom .... 
    
    Good Luck!!
    Patty

    
    I would talk to your m-i-l and find out her feelings towards the way 
    Ann is being brought up.  I am sure she isn't too happy about it but,
    she only has her so many hours of the day and the rest of the time she
    is with her parents.  
    
    I have my f-i-l babysit for my three children.  There are seven
    grandchildren in all.  Sometimes he could have all seven but, I know
    they are all treated equally.  Him having all seven only happens once
    in a while.  I know how my in-laws are raising their children and we 
    are all basically doing it the same.  The one thing we all do is make
    them share and if we see something happening and it is wrong in our
    book they do take a time out (whether it is our kid or not).    
    
    I wouldn't have let Ann open any of the presents.  I had this situation
    happen and stopped it because I knew that the girl wouldn't have let my
    son help her open her presents.
    
    							carol
    

Well, I put this one "on hold" for a while but these latest responses have
prompted me to "go for it"!

At Juli's first birthday party, she could care less if she received ONE
GIFT!  She was too caught up in the balloons, excitement, people, activity,
and spotlight to understand OR CARE about the gifts  (which I felt a little
badly for the people who brought the gifts and were very anxiously waiting
for Juli to take an interest in them ... HOWEVER, I knew even if we had
spread this birthday party over THREE LONG DAYS, Juli would still be 
TOTALLY DIS-interested in her gifts) ... So-ooo

I asked the "attendees" (of adults AND KIDS!) if anyone objected to lining
up volunteer-kids (each picking out a present, reading the card,
opening the gift and then getting back in line and letting the next kid 
"take a turn"."  I think the people who brought the gifts would much rather 
have seen their gift(s) opened, displayed and appreciated than to have 
packed them away until JULI took an interest (which I truly believe
would never have happened on her birth-DAY!).

Of the 25 adults and 20 kids (or whatever the numbers were), I had NO
OBJECTIONS ... least of all from Juli! ... and everyone seemed
thrilled and happy about "sharing" IN THE FESTIVITIES of the ocassion.

If Juli had said "no, they are MY presents and only I CAN OPEN THEM ..."
then fine, she has that right.  But since it didn't phase me/Jim/Juli
and the "crowd" had no objections ... then we just got ALL the other kids
involved.  The kids just loved it!!!!  And many a proud parent looked on.

From-someone-who-just-loves-audience-participation!
Dottie                ||
                      ||
                      \/
PS:  Jim/I were also labeled "crazy" for putting "and family" on all our 
     wedding invitations ... and THEN WE called all the kids forward to 
     cut THEIR VERY OWN piece of cake  (baker had a heart-attack on this one!)
     ... THEN my flower girl handed out a small hand-made Christmas ornament 
     to each and every kid who came to our wedding ... The photographer had
     his hands full trying to capture each kid cutting the cake with the
     Bride and Groom, not to mention each kid trying to dance with the Bride.
     I have a precious picture of Jim cutting in on a 3-year old!

.... And I now have a priceless video of my daughter's 1st birthday ... 
     and she's not the only kid who was there HAVING A GOOD TIME!

    We had a similar situation at my son's 3rd birthday, but he took things
    in control, and took his presents to each of the other kids, and said
    here, help me open this. We ended up with a bunch of happy-ish kids,
    far from the tears and screaming that had occured at one of his friends
    birthday parties a few weeks before.
    
    One of the mothers of a friend of our son's once said that she intends
    that her child be a "free spirit", and that she would not impose any
    restriction on her child. To quote her own words, "he can jump on the
    dining room table if he likes". I asked her how she felt other people
    would feel at her lack of regard for their personal property when she
    took her son visiting. She hadn't thought of it, but couldn't see the
    problem. No-one in that family will get an invite to our house,
    again...
    
    Peter Q.
    

    Excuse me for asking, but am I the only one who believes in the rule
    that if you're in someone else's home, you adhere to that person's
    house rules?  I interpret this as being if I am a guest at someone
    else's party, then not only do I adhere to my normal rules of behavior
    but I also don't touch anything, this includes someone else's birthday  
    presents, in my host/hostess's home, and I adhere to THEIR house rules!
    
    From personal experience, my mother in law stopped me shortly after our
    arrival from disciplining our son.  I guess I was anticipating
    unacceptable behavior.  She told me in no uncertain terms that this is
    her house and if he wanted to act as a brat then he could.  Well it
    took me back a couple steps, but I respected her wishes and let him do
    what he wanted that day, short of doing something harmful to himself.
    
    I do have a niece who is "aggressive", for lack of not know what else
    to call her.  She is almost 2 years older than AJ and has at every
    party tried to tell me when to open presents, cut the cake etc.  I
    handled it as nicely as I could last year, after she asked me the
    umteenth time if it was time to do [whatever, cake presents etc], I
    asked her simply who's party is this, she responded it was AJ's, I told
    her since it was his party then AJ and his family will set the rules
    for who does what and when.  You could tell she's very materialistic,
    like HER mother, the first thing we did at her party last week was open
    presents, but never all day did we here a thank you, to any of the gift
    givers.  I have had to stop her at several occations (Christmas,
    birthday etc) from opening AJ's presents.
    
    I do disagree with bringing a present for your own to someone else's
    party.  But what I do generally try to do if there is another child in
    the family, is to wrap a small present to the "non-birthday child",so
    they can feel like someone remembered they exist too, and they too get
    a present to unwrap.  Does anyone think there's anything wrong with
    this practice.  (I've done it not only for birthdays, but Christenings,
    and other special occations).
    
    Lyn

I'd have to disagree more than agree with Lyn in .24.  If I have rules
for my child, then I expect her to obey those rules, regardless of where
we are.  If we're in someone else's house, then that person has the right
to set "house rules;" but those rules may augment, but don't override, our
family behavior rules.

On the other hand, if we're talking about rules about "how to behave when
you're a guest", then I would agree that the host's rules should take
precedence.

For example, if we had a family rule, "no candy before meals", then I
would expect my child to obey that rule, even if offered candy by someone 
we're visiting; but if we had a rule, "don't climb on other people's 
furniture", then the host could certainly say "It's ok to climb on my
furniture".

That is, if it's a matter between my child and the host, then the host
set's the rules; but if it's a general behavior issue, then my rules
still hold.

	-Neil