Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    I don't mean to sound offending, but why do you feel that is something 
    you need to know? I mean id it something that you think would benefit
    you if you knew? Or that she would tell you in fear that you would not
    want to keep your child going there for fear that it is growing too big
    thefore taking time away from each child more and more?
    
    My  husband took the first Digital Buyout and opened a daycare center
    from our house and watched 4 kids under age 4 and our daughter who
    was only 1 at the time. And even tho it was his business, a daycare
    organization did like the advertising for him and when parents called
    them they referred them to him, so he constantly had kids coming or
    going (that were on waiting lists for the center itself instead of
    homes) and he had temp kids he watched, because he could have 6 and 
    so always had room to watch 1 for the day or 2 if 1 perm was out.
    
    And he never told the parents when 1 left or came, they picked the
    kids up and would notice different kids, but never seemed concerned
    and I don't even think it dawned on him to tell them, he probably 
    did not think they would need to know, It was after all a daycare
    center at home. 
    
    So I guess I cannot relate to the situation. Just had to give some 
    input on what that situation was like. Good luck.
    
    Charlene
     

I disagree with .1

Juli's first homecare provider did similar stuff, too.  Problem being ...
I hired her to watch my child based on certain expectations: her "available
time" (based on how many kids she would be watching), the age of the children
Juli would be involved with (I wanted kids around the same age as Juli),
where my child would be cared for (in her home).

I, too, was upset when I constantly found more kids added (thus, more
chaos), older kids (dominating the younger ones) AND she took a JOB working
for an autobody shop (and dragged the kids along with her!).  That was the
straw that broke the camel's back!

Had I known that the environment would be:  many kids, all ages!, no time
to interact with the children, and her working a fulltime job (while
purportedly caring for the children), I would have said FLAT OUT NO!  But
we got suckered into believing an environment was a certain way that WAS
NOT!   YES, I was offended ... YES, I objected!  If we hire her to do a job,
I expect the "expectations" to be true and accurate ... or, at least she
tell me when changes are about to occur BEFORE they occur.

We left after a few months ... and am very happy with our current
"learning center" environment.

Dottie

    I think Dotties and Bardara's are two different things.  I agree with
    .1, but not if it was Dottie she was answering to.
    
    
>> as my daughters care is not suffering I should not be concerned?

    Isn't this your answer???

.0

I think that you have the right to know the maximum number of kids your 
daycare provider will care for (and what ages).  Depending on what state you 
are in, there may be regulations as to how many total kids she can care for, 
and how many of them can be below a given age (1 year?).  If your daycare 
provider is acting in those parameters, I think it makes sense for her to tell 
you, but I don't think she is obligated.

Clay

    My daughter loved to have the other kids around, so her care was
    definately not suffering, there would not have been so many kids 
    allowed if he didn't think he could devote time to each child. 
    
    the issue was not our daughter tho, it was the kids that have parents
    paying for the service. And they did not seem to mind and all thought
    it was great to finally get their kids interacting with other kids.
    Taking the nature walks and going to the park, etc...If he felt 4 
    kids was too much to handlem then he would not have taken that many.
    
    All I was asking, not saying, but asking...In reply 1 was that if it
    was concern that her child would not be getting as much attention, then
    I can relate. But if there was no apparent reason for minding that she
    was not told then I could not understand why she thought they would
    tell her. 
    
    We never had this problem, but sometimes people don't know that you 
    want to hear something unless you voice the concern yourself first,
    then they have no problem with it. But sometimes it is hard to please
    everyone and everyone's thoughts vary so much. 
    
    That's all. 
    
    Charlene

    
    If your daycare provider is licensed, then she can only have 2 children
    under the age of 2.  I would be concerned that she might not be able to
    care for that many younge children which need alot of attention, help,
    etc.
    
    As far as as letting you know about additions, I would want to know.  I
    talk about my daycare provider everyday with Spencer (3 1/2) and Tanner
    (19 mos).  We talk about who will be there that day (she takes part
    timers) and what they will be doing etc.  I want to know about their
    "world" while I'm at work, which includes the other children they
    interact with all day!  
    

    One of AJ's home care environments started out great, she said she
    wanted to limit her number to 4 or 5 children total.  One was her, at
    that time, infant daughter and her own son who is the same age as AJ. 
    As it turned out she ended up with all boys and most being just about
    the same age, give or take a few months.  She sent her own son to part
    time preschool two mornings a week so it essentially lowered the
    numbers she cared for.
    
    Then she started taking on many part time children for various reasons. 
    Some were kindegarteners who would be there either morning or
    afternoon, or a day or two a week.  Many times on snow days or school
    holidays or vacations she was clearly over her limit.  I tended to
    looke the other way because I really felt her care and activities were
    great.  But then I realized that she was becoming a little less caring
    and frazzled several times.  It was the little things, lost sox, hats
    and mittens, mixed up underwear (the boys all seemed to "train" at the
    same time), she was unaware that she was overrun by mosquitos etc.  So
    that was the point that I decided it was time for a switch from home
    care to preschool.  
    
    I know she still has essentially the same crew of boys, and a couple
    new ones now.  But as we visited for a morning last summer I realized I
    had made the right decision.  The chaos and the bugs and confusion were
    still very prevalent.
    
    Just my opinion.
    Lyn 

    I agree with .6.  I would be concerned if she has more than 2 children
    under the age of 2.  And base on your note, she now has 3 children
    that are under 15 months, which is definitely too many for me.
    
    I also feel that you should be informed if the daycare situation
    changes, this includes getting new kids.  I believe, adding an
    infant is different than adding a 3 yr old under her care.  The
    infant will definitely have an impact of the quality of the
    care that all the children receive.
    
    Wendy

    Again, I agree with .4, .6. and the previous note.  In Massachusetts, a
    family daycare provider can have *no more* than 2 children under the
    age of 2 (including her own) and no more than 6 children.  I would
    check the childcare laws where you live and perhaps bring this up to
    her, or move your child to another provider.  If your provider has
    another licensed person working with her, then the number of children
    increases.
    
    Mary
    

    
    When I used home care, one of my questions was the number of other
    children that the provider planned on taking care of.  In one case, I
    even put it into the contract that if the number were to change, I
    would be notified in advance.
    
    The ratio was very important to me.  There is a definite link between
    the ratio and the level of care.  
    
    In New Hampshire, a licensed daycare provider cannot have more than two
    children under 2 years of age.
    
    So, I think you are justified in your concern.  
    
    judy

    Some clarification from the base noter.
    
    My daycare provider is licensed. I live in Arizona and am not sure of
    the age/number limits (I will check that tonight). 
    
    I guess my concern is partly that she is taking on too many younger
    children. With my daughter + the two babies (12-14 months) and this
    new baby, that makes 4 kids under 2, with her own, it is 5 under 3.
    I personnally think that is too many young children for any of them
    to get adequate attention.
     
    Another reason this has bothered me so much is my daughters reaction. 
    I knew on Monday that something had changed because this normally
    happy independent child was suddenly very whiney and clingly.  
    
    I guess putting the two things together (childs reaction and not being 
    told) is what has upset me.  I know that the provider expects me to
    tell her if I decide to change my daycare arrangements, shouldn't I
    expect the same courtesy from her.
    
    There are other minor things that have happen at the daycare that have
    bothered me lately, that is why I am asking the question about my being
    justified in being upset.
    

    RE: a few
    
    I have a question/comment concerning notification.  I don't understand
    the issue, I guess.  Do you expect to be informed that the "class size"
    of a daycare center has increased by 1???  If not, then why do you
    expect to be informed that a family daycare class size has been
    increased?  Both centers fall under the same general guidelines. 
    Unless the family daycare provider has exceeded his/her limits, what is 
    the issue?
    
    FYI -  The reasoning for hte limit of 2 children under the age of 2 is
    for fire evacuation purposes.  It would be difficult/impossible for a
    provider to evacuate more than two of that age quickly.  From what I
    understand the law is being changed in Mass to age 18 months rather
    than 2.
    
    Dan

    
    It is to my understanding that every day care provider can only have 2
    kids under 2.....Maybe if there is more than 1 provider in the home, 
    but it seems like it would have to be a pretty big home. Because there
    has to be a certain amount of space available to even get your license
    to watch 6 kids. Kids that young definately need constant attention 
    and supervision. 
    
    I would say something to her like, I have heard from some people at
    work when we were talking about kids and daycare, that you can only
    have 2 kids under the age of 2, so why do you have more?
    
    Charlene 

    When I was looking for family daycare for my son (just recently, in Mass.),
    I found several licensed providers who had obtained waivers for the "2
    under the age of 2" limitation, allowing them to care for 3 children under
    the age of 2, even with only one adult.
    
    I was pretty appalled, wondering what the purpose of the rule is if it
    is frequently waived.
    
    Leslie

    Re: .12
    
    My son goes to a daycare center.  The reason that I don't expect
    to be informed the change of "class size" is that I know it will
    definitely follow the regulation.  Plus, in general, the daycare
    center has a much better adult/children ratio than home daycare.
    For infant, it ususally is 2/7.  My son's daycare center has a
    3/12 ratio for toddler.
    
    Wendy 

    Alex went to a daycare center from 10 weeks to kindergarten, and though
    the ratios for each age group were published and made clear to the
    parents (so there was technically "no need" to notify parents when kids
    left or enrolled), we *were* told and I appreciated that.  The center
    understood that there could be personality conflicts among the kids,
    and sadness when a friend left to go to another school or whatever. 
    They thought parents should know about major changes like that (to the
    kids, it's not just body-count fluctuations; it's a big deal).
    
    Very occasionally one room might have an extra child, say for 1 or 2
    afternoons a week; in a daycare center setting, this is not (to me) as
    much of a concern as it would be in a family daycare, because in the
    center they can borrow staff members/aides from other classrooms, have
    an older child visit the next older classroom, etc.  In family daycare,
    an extra child makes a significant change in the population and
    percentage of attention each child can get.
    
    Yes, I expect to be notified in either setting that "we are welcoming
    a new friend" and I'd be very upset if they just tried to "grease one
    past me."
    
    Leslie

	If there's too much feeling expreseeed here please read with some
   understanding. This is a view of someone who sees the other side of
   home day care.

	The MA law governing the number of children has changed in the last
   month. A provider may have three children under the age of 24 months 
   providing the third child is more than 15 months old. I know this from
   the fact my wife sits on an Office for Children committee dealing with
   Latch Key kids.

	I've been on both side of the day care fence. My oldest was in one
   for four years and now I'm an approved assistant for my wife ( not a
   solication for business she's full ). The number of children present in a
   day care is not to exceed 6 for one provider with the number under two years
   of age now pegged at three. The provider's children count towards this
   headcount if they're in the home for a couple of hours or more and they're
   under a certain school age ( I can't remember it now ). 

	A parent may be interested/concerned with the number of children
   that will be present but should not demand to be told when a new child will
   be present in the day care. Do you place the same restrictions on the service
   station when they're doing work on your car? If you're concerned about the 
   care your child will receive ask the questions pertaining to the needs of
   the child. What kind of attention, activities, and response time will be
   accorded to each child?  A day care provided is there to offer a service
   that should meet quality control not one of quanlity control. My wife enjoys
   the babies under two and provides them with as much attention or more than
   they receive at home. When my older children appear the children receive
   more attention than they know what to do with. 

	Being a concerned parent is very important to your child and the
   provider. Being a pain in the neck, demanding, critical etc beyond the
   situation causes heartached fo all three parties, Parents, provider and
   the child).

	Remember that you're choosing a person to take your place in the 
   major portion of your child's full development. You may expect the best
   but do not look for the impossible. At same time you're choosing a provider
   the provider is selecting someone thay wish to work with and for.  

    re: last
    
    Your last paragraph was correct - you have the right to KNOW what's
    going on with your child during the day.  I think it's a simple
    courtesy for a home day-daycare provider to let his/her other
    full-timers know when a new child is joining the group.  What I didn't
    like is comparing a day-care center to a car shop.  These are PEOPLE
    we're talking about - not pieces of metal!
    
    My daycare provider lets me know when she's taking someone new.  This
    helps me talk to my children about the situation and also alerts me to
    changes in my kids behavior.  An 8 month old just joined my sitters
    group.  Prior to that her youngest was my almost 3 year old.  While he
    loved the new baby I saw a change in his behavior - acting out
    baby-like activity, talking like a baby, etc.  By knowing the situation
    at the sitters I could deal with it much more effectively.
    
    Linda

Sorry I also feel the comparison of daycare services to bodyshop services
is totally off the mark.  

In this situation, I am talking about a homecare situation (not daycare center)
with one provider and X number of children.  In this type of environment the
coming and going of one child can and does have a noticable impact on the
children.  It is very obvious to them when another child joins the group.  It
means that much less attention for them.

My daughter was and has been affected by the addition of new children to her
environment.  Until the last 6 months, she was the youngest so got that much
more attention.  Now at not quite 2, she is "one of the oldest" and does not
get near the amount of attention that she did a few short months ago.  

I think this is the major reason for my concern.  If this situation is going
to happen and I know that it will, I would like to be prepare (and help
prepare her) for the change that will occur in her daily environment.

I just feel that it should not be unreasonable for the provider to mention
before the fact that she will be adding another child to her care.  Now I
feel that she has tried to pull one over on me (not that she is trying to
get away with anything).  

Barbara

    -1:
    
    I think you are completely correct here.  You are NOT saying that the
    provider needs to ASK you if she can add more children, just saying
    that she should let you know so you can deal with your child.  You also
    have the right to decide that, because she's adding so many young
    children, you may need to look elsewhere for day care.  Maybe that's
    what she's afraid of.
    
    I would talk to her and raise your concerns.  Maybe it's just never
    entered her mind that you need to know this.  I walked into my sitters
    the other day to find a little girl, her highchair, toys, etc. all
    moved in!  Since my sitter has always been WONDERFUL at letting me know
    when she was taking on another full-timer I was a little surprised and
    asked her if the little girl was staying.  She apologized all over and
    just said she was helping out one of the other sitters in the
    neighborhood for a couple of weeks as her daughter was getting married. 
    That was the end of it and we're both happy.  (Of course my 3 year old
    has been a REAL pain with all of this - but at least I know why.)
    
    Daycare is never easy - I've been with my sitter for 8 years (threee
    kids worth - I keep her in business ;>) and even now things crop up
    from time to time that we need to talk about.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Linda