Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    I can relate to your dilemna.  First of all, you know your son best, so
    your opinions are very important.  He won't be starting Kindergarten
    for another 6 months, from my own experience with my Kindergartener, 
    things can change overnight.  
    
    Does the school he's planning on attending test for Kindergarten
    readiness?
    
    Our public school district has a "Developmental Kindergarten" available
    for those children who are of age but not quite ready for regular
    Kindergarten.  The developmental program is a 2 year commitment.
    
    My concern was about having to repeat the same program for 2 years!
    
    Good luck,
    
    Rochelle

    I could have written a similar note.  My daughter was born 8/28 and
    cutoffs in our area range from 9/1 (private schools) to 12/31 (public
    schools).  She makes the cutoff in both cases, but is really young for
    private schools.  One private school administrator told me that the
    "best gift" I could give my child was holding her back the extra
    year...and the administrator had *never even seen* Elizabeth.  On the 
    other hand, Elizabeth's nursery school teacher feels that there's "no 
    reason" why she shouldn't enter K at 5.
    
    The bottom line?  Trust your own feelings about your child.  While the
    trend seems to be towards holding children the extra year, he's your
    child and *you* know him best.
    
    Good luck!
    Lois   

    Re: .2 -
    
    I am curious to know more about the "trend" to hold a child back for an
    extra year.  My daughter's birthday is 9/1 and although she is just a
    baby, I have wondered which school year she will probably fall into. 
    You mentioned that a school administrator advised holding your daughter
    back even without seeing her.  Is there a general feeling that turning
    5 just as the school year starts is young for Kindergarten?
    
    As an aside, I am reading a book by Lawrence Kurtner M.D. called
    "Parent & Child" and find it extremely interesting.  It focuses on
    understanding how children think and then responding to them
    accordingly.  In one chapter on transitions, he makes a strong
    recommendation to NOT hold a child back in the early grades, as it
    affects their self-esteem.  It would seem preferable to wait the extra
    year before starting.
    
    Does anyone have experience with this?
    
    Mary
    

    Well, my best advice at this point is - Think about how LONG a year is
    to a 5 year old!
    
    Christopher will be 6 in May.  In Sept. we started him in a private
    kindergarten, and compared to the other kids he failed miserably.  He
    was miserable, we were miserable, it was a generally horrible feeling. 
    After about a month of this we moved him to a pre-K class, and for the
    most part he has done very well there.  We were pretty much resigned to
    sticking him in K this fall and just letting him be a year behind. 
    Well, in the past few months alone, *HE* has changed so much that I'd
    be sure that keeping him in K for a year now would be a bad idea - and
    he still has all summer to grow.  He probably would've been ready for K
    in January - but since the school year doesn't work that way, we'll
    keep working with him all summer, and I'm pretty confident that by the
    fall he'll be quite comfortable in 1st grade - and back with his age
    group!!  
    
    If you don't go for K this fall, at least do *SOMETHING* so that the
    child doesn't get used to be being bored or not having to work/learn
    stuff.  Heck, my 3 year old does what he calls 'homework' (drawing) now, 
    and he thinks it's the NEATEST thing - get 'em while they're still
    easily impressionable!
    
    patty

    
    
    Re 0:
    
    My family went through this with my son, Doug.  You may wish to read
    NOTE 816 in Parenting_V2.  I was the basenoter about this subject and 
    there are 25 replies to it.  (The info in reply .25 regards a correlation 
    between crawling and young developmently may not be true.  There have been
    other notes since this that differ--that this may have been a theory
    about a decade or so ago.)  I believe most of the info in the earlier 
    volume will be of interest and is very relevant to your situation.
    
    I believe you are right in having your son tested again before the next
    school year.  However, if the recommendation to have him enter school a
    year later is still recommended please weigh it carefully.  What the
    teachers are looking for is a common base of knowledge and development
    in several areas.  Children who are recommended to enter school a year
    later are by no means "stupid", in fact many of them are brighter than
    average.  All children do not crawl or walk at the same age and it is
    the same with being ready for school.  Some do it earlier, some later.
    
    I speak not only as a mother who has been through this but also from
    personal experience.  I was 5 years old when I went into first grade. 
    (Kindergarten was not mandatory in Maryland at that time.)  The cut off
    date was 12/31 and I was born on 12/21.  From personal reflection, I
    believe it would have been better for me to have entered the next year
    instead.  I had a very hard time. In later classes writing reports and
    poems scared me to to death.  It was interpreted I'm sure of being lazy.  
    And my self image was a poor.  It wasn't until my sixth grade teacher 
    gave me recognition for talent in math and art that I started to turn 
    around.  It still was hard however, and I can remember getting nauseous 
    in Junior High School so that I could go home.  Once I was home, I was 
    fine.  
    
    I believe that many of the parents who have children who are
    recommended to start a year later have a problem and not the child. 
    One teacher put it this way to a parent:  "Would you rather you child
    be the engine or the caboose?"
    
    Again, you do know your child best.  Just be sure the decision is in
    his best interest and not one made on the basis of your ego.
    
    
    					Regards,
    
                                        Darlene		
    					   
    
    

    This is a very controversial subject, especially in New Hampshire where
    a _lot_ of kids spend an extra year in "readiness" between kindergarten
    and first grade.  I have read a lot of opinions either way.  Some
    people say that giving kids an extra year to mature (especially boys)
    is the best thing, and helps them do better in first and succeeding
    grades.  Other people say that such age advantages even out by 3rd or
    4th grade, and may even backfire if your child finds 1st grade too easy
    and gets bored.  I have no direct experience with this, since Marc is
    only 17 mos. old, but since his birthday is 3 weeks after the cutoff in
    Hollis, I don't suppose I'll have any choice except to start him in
    kindergarten when he's practically 6.  We'll see if this presents a
    problem when gets older.  
    
    From personal experience, I started school at the normal age (birthday
    in April), but was accelerated partway thru 2nd grade to 3rd.  So from
    3rd grade on, I was always a year younger than everyone else.  For my
    entire school experience (probably until well into high school), I was
    convinced that being younger contributed to all my social problems in
    school.  By comparison, I was with kids my own age in religious school
    and as a result, felt confident enough to become sort-of popular in
    that group.  Of course this was all in my mind, but it defintely had an
    impact.  Scholastically, of course, I did fine, but I really wonder
    how things would have been different had they not pushed me ahead (my
    mother now says that had she to do it over again, she would oppose
    accelelation, and in fact did oppose it with my younger brother.  The
    downside of being the oldest :-))

    You know your child best, but the teacher/coordinator/whatever is
    *objective*.  It's very human to see what you want...  

    Are there many children entering late to kindegarden, and if so
    doesn't that make the young ones even that much younger?  If they
    all enter late won't therer be lots of "engines" and only a few "cabooses"?
     
    Just wondering.  Karin

    Re: .3 - "Is there a general feeling that turning 5 just as the school
    year starts is young for Kindergarten?"  
    
    At this particular school that seemed to be the case.  This was a
    private school and private schools have the luxury of designing a
    curriculum and selecting kids to match (rather than the other way
    around).  
    
    Re: .8 - I talked about the age issue with my daughter's nursery school
    teacher.  She says that public schools are now facing rather large
    age spreads in K.  Some parents are holding their children back and
    some are not.  Hence, there is a potential for nearly a two year age
    spread in one grade.  Depending on how the curriculum is implemented
    (and the ability of the teacher) this may or may not present a problem.  
    
    In my mind the best tack to take is to look at your child and the
    curriculum developmentally and see if there is a match.  And, by all
    means, seriously consider the input of the educational professionals.
    
    Depends on lots of factors,
    Lois
        

    I wonder about this too, since my son is an end of July baby (and my
    second will be an August baby).... I look at friend's kids who turned
    the same age 8 months before and wonder what it will be like when Ryan
    is in the same grade as them.  This has always been a dilemma for
    parents but seems to be increasing too as more school systems gradually
    move the age cutoff closer to the start of the school year.
    
    A lot of it does depend on the maturity of the child, and boys
    definitely differ from girls in terms of social readiness. I've heard
    good things about K1 - the kindergarten prep class, but have never
    heard of the 2 yr. commitment that an earlier reply mentioned.  I wish
    the basenoter luck in the decision.
    

    This month's "Working Mother" contains an article on Kindergarten
    Readiness and the validity of the tests.  I found it very informative
    and plan on holding onto the issue for next year when my son Kevin
    will be entering kindergarten.  It talks about the pros and cons
    of keeping a child out for additional year.  Also, the controversy
    on the test themselves.
    
    Unfortunately, I lent the magazine to my sitter, since her son just
    went through the kindergarten testing, so I don't have any references
    to point to.                                
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Pat K.
    

    
    RE: 8
    
    There does seem to be a tendency for parents to hold back kids from
    entering school.  Some of it I believe is justified and some not.  But
    for those kids close to the cut off age, it may be placing additional 
    stress on them if they are not developmentally ready. 
    
    
    					Darlene
    

    I think a child should be in the class that's appropriate academically,
    not socially.  School should be about academics.  The "current"
    thinking really tries to convince people to hold their kids back.
    So I thought I'd mention some of the advantages of having kids
    ahead in school year.
    
    My daughter (11) and I are both December birthdays, and were/are
    the youngest in our classes.  Academically we were/are at the top
    of the class.  Socially, neither of us were/are in the "popular" crowd.
    My daughter is experiencing the same thing I remembered.  She has
    nothing in common with the other girls -- the other girls are
    interested in hairstyles, clothes, and Boys, none of which interest
    her at all.  (She actually has more in common with the boys in her
    class, and has boys as friends, but isn't interested in BOYs, if
    you know what I mean.)
    It's possible if she were in 5th instead of 6th,
    she'd have more in common with the other girls.  But I'm actually
    somewhat pleased she's not interested in assimilating the values
    and interests of the other kids.  Somehow I think being at least
    a year behind the other kids socially forces her to be her own
    person, with her own interests, since she's not socially ready
    to become a carbon copy of the other kids.  She's not unhappy
    in her grade.  She's not happy with the other girls not really
    liking her, but she wouldn't want to be in 5th instead of 6th.
    
    It obviously depends on the kid.  A kid that reacts to "challenge"
    by getting discouraged and having lower self esteem should be
    kept back.  A kid (like my daughter) that thrives on challenge
    should be in a class with older kids.  No matter what grade we
    put her in, she'll do what's necessary (and no more) to be at
    the top of the class.  So she might as well be kept challenged.
    My son (8, also a December
    birthday) couldn't handle the stress of being with older kids
    socially, and after a lot of armtwisting by the school we agreed
    to let him repeat 2nd grade.  Although in 2nd grade it's clear
    he's more comfortable now that he's the oldest instead of the youngest,
    I still worry about how things will work out in the higher grades,
    when more academic stuff is going on and he'll be bored.
    
    We have a friend who was kept back (for social reasons)
    and claimed that the reason he
    flunked out of MIT was that he was so bored academically in school
    that he never developed any study habits, and when college was
    the first place anything was challenging, he had no idea how to
    study, or that if you didn't know the answer to something right
    away that there was hope of getting it after working at it
    for awhile.  And being held back didn't help him socially either.  If he 
    were to be in the appropriate grade socially, he would have had to
    be held back about 8 grade levels.  (just like almost all the male
    computer science types I've ever known)
    
    Mike (my SO) was skipped a grade or two and also feels that being
    the youngest (when it's appropriate academically) is the right thing.
    He was even more out of things socially than I was.  So we both
    grew up to be nerds.  But we're happy, well adjusted nerds, with
    happy nerd kids and lots of nerd friends.    ;-)
    
    Radia

    Aside to Radia in .13 -- bravo for the nerds! I enjoyed your reply
    as an example of how one family made its decisions based on its
    own values combined with the needs of the children. Thanks.
    
    Lucy

    
    This is a controversial issue. My daughter is a August baby. She
    was the youngest in her nursery classes. She passed the readiness
    test and she entered kindergarten when she was 5 years and 1 month
    old. We didn't hold her back since she passed the test and because
    all her friends are going to kindergarten. Well, she is doing an
    excellent job academically, she is even getting a bit bored.
    BUT, she is still catching up socially.  She is not quite mature
    emotionally compared to other kids in class. Fortunately, the
    teacher is very aware of my daughter's situation and is actively
    working with my daughter on it. So, we hope that my daughter can
    use the kindergarten year to grow socially, since the demand on
    her academically is virtually not there. 
    
    
    I was a "nerd" growing up and I hope my child will have an easier
    time dealing with other kids. From my experience, having all A's
    does not necessarily mean more self-esteem, especially in adulthood.
    
    
    Eva

    Re: .15 -  When you talk about your daughter being "...not quite mature
    emotionally compared to the other kids in class" what does that mean? 
    I guess I'm looking for the aspects of emotional maturity that parents
    and teacher consider important.  Can you give examples/be specific?
    
    Many thanks,
    Lois
    

    I'm wondering the same as .16  Also isn't that what kindergarten is
    supposed to be about, letting children get used to others and a year
    of growth socially?  I think this society is expecting K kids to be
    of age 7 emotionally so they can teach easier.  Boy does this seem
    to get me angry.  We are so caught up with the Jones.  Maybe I'm
    interpretting this all wrong.  Help.
    

    
    
     
    re. .16 .17
    
    My daughter does not cope with conflicts (with other kids) very well.
    Eg. if someone bump into her, she would tell the teacher right away.
    Most of the time, it's an accident. The teacher doesn't want my
    daughter to "tell on the other kids", but rather settle the matters
    herself. Another thing is that my daughter takes jokes and kidding
    arounds too personally and seriously. My daughter doesn't quite 
    compromise sometimes, she is very strong minded and since she is the
    only child, she doesn't feel the need to be part of a group. Well,
    to put it more plainly, it's doing it her way or no way (she'd play
    by herself). As the teacher put it, my daughter has to learn that
    she has to deal with other people; and once she gets over that hurdle
    she can become very strong leader.
    
    
    Eva.

re: .18

Unless it is extreme, I would say that's pretty normal.  Both the tattletaling 
and the taking kidding too seriously (but being willing to kid other people) 
is something that we are working with our son on, and he's in second grade.

As far as dealing with groups, that probably not something that you can learn 
in the abstract.  Unless perhaps you have a daycare situation that can provide 
more attention to social interaction, it seems to me that kindergarten is as 
good a place as any to do that.

Clay

My son has been recommended for "readiness" (between kindergarten and first
grade), so I've looked into this.  We all know how expert opinion swings all the
time on everything from when to start solid foods to advisibility of
supplemental fluoride.  With that caveat, I want to share an article I found 
reviewing the recent studies in this area which came down pretty unambiguously
against all flavors of extended kindergarten.  It's a lengthy article.  I will 
put some excerpts from the introduction and summary to give you the gist of 
it.  If you are interested in the entire article, send me mail, and I will see 
what I can do, based on volume. I must apologize -- I don't know the exact 
reference off-hand, but I will find it and post it here.  However, based on 
references cited, I know it is no older than 1988.  Based on this article 
it seems to me that the smaller "readiness" classes should be changed to special 
smaller first grade sections to help "at-risk" kids.  

   Of course I'm still a little unsure about what to do with *my* kid!

  Brenda
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Chapter 4: A Review of Research on Kindergarten Retention

Lorrie A. Shepard

                     
  Editor's Introduction

 
 Repeating kindergarten is intended to be different from non-promotion at other
grade levels.  Because it comes before academic failure it is meant to be a
preventative treatment.  The populations served and its social effects are
thought to be different.  Often children are selected for kindergarten
retention because of immaturity rather than poor academic skills.  And, many
believe that being held back in kindergarten does not carry the stigma
associated with retention later on.
...
 This chapter is a review of available research on kindergarten retention in
its several forms: transition classrooms before first grade, developmental
kindergarten before kindergarten; and straight repeating of kindergarten
...
...
Summary of Research Findings

  In summary, the expanded purview of available research studies corroborates
the conclusions of Gredler's (1984) review.  Kindergarten retention and
transition rooms are ineffective.  Although a year older than their new grade
peers, transition children perform no better academically than
transition-eligible children who went directly on to first grade.  The finding
of no difference or no benefit is true whether children were placed on the
basis of pre-academic problems or developmental immaturity.  Children who
spend an extra year before first grade are just as likely to end up at the
bottom of their first or third grade class as unready children who refused
special placement.  Academically able but immature children who repeat
kindergarten may well be at the top of their first grad class but not ahead of
where they would have been without the added year, as shown by equivalent
controls.  Only one adequately-controlled positive study was found among
twenty-one; it did not follow the comparison groups beyond first grade.  Several
other controlled studies found an advantage for transition children in first
grade that disappeared when groups were followed up in third and fourth grades. 
Self-concept or attitude measures, only rarely included in research studies,
showed no difference or negative effects from the extra-year placements.  In
this respect retention, whether it is called by a special name (transition),
occurs for special reason (immaturity), or takes place in kindergarten rather
than later, is still retention -- and still ineffective.

    Thanks to the person who told me about the article in Working Mother.
    
    I bought that issue and when I finished reading it, I confirmed my
    decision to send John to K next year was okay.  He's not 100% there
    but I truly believe with the passage of the next few months he'll be
    as ready as any child that age can be ready.  
    
    Thanks to everyone who replied to my message.  I realize that no child
    is 100% "perfect" for K.  I believe my town is trying to push back the
    starting time of 5 by 12/31 to 5 by 9/1 and this is there way of doing
    it unofficially.  I have no intentions of letting my son get caught up
    in their "political games!"  (The woman at the school told me they were
    trying to push the age back.)  I don't understand why they are doing it
    they are always going to have "young" children!
    
    Thanks for listening
    

    Just wanted to update you.  I sent John to Kindergarten in September
    and he's doing WONDERFUL.  He has adjusted nicely not only to public
    Kindergarten, but he also has adjusted to his extended K and Extended
    Day care.  
    
    What I'm saying is it pays to go with your gut feel.  I look back and
    realize that the day care he was in last year was a definite growing
    experience for him and had I listened to them I know I would have had
    one frustrated child on my hands.  
    
    If you feel your child is ready go for it, if not then don't send
    him/her.