Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Sarah,
    
    Not an answer to your question (I seem to have a problem sticking 
    to the subject.....call me the Ratholer).   I'd like to suggest
    that now's the time to put David's walker away.   Jason took a 
    very scary ride down the stairs at 7 months and landed in the
    Emergency Room where he was said to have been "very, very lucky"
    in that he sustained no long term damages.   The ER doctor told
    me to "please, please, please" take away to walker; they just see
    so many walker injuries.   I said no problem, we'll put a door 
    by the stairway and it will never happen again.  The said that
    stairs are not the only walker injury (though usually the most 
    serious type) that they see....walkers can actually flip out from
    under the baby if he reaches too far or tries to climb out.   For
    what its worth, I believe that walkers have been banned in Canada.
    
    As far as when they learn that they may fall, at 10-1/2 months,
    Jason may know that he can fall but still takes the chances.
    
    Carol

    
    Sarah:
    
    Not sure WHEN (if ever!) they figure out how dangerous their 
    "investigative acts" can be ... but when JA started standing, I 
    used to sit next to her and LET her fall (but break her fall 
    before she hit).  I learned "in my youth" (during gymnastics) 
    that fall's themselves aren't bad ... but not knowing HOW 
    to fall IS bad.
    
    I'm not saying JA doesn't have her share of scratches and bruises ...
    OR hasn't tried that "life threatening aerobatic feat", but we've 
    been very lucky that she almost always lands on her kiester (with the
    diaper's padding!).  I've seen her twist herself in a pretzel formation
    to land that way.   She fell forward ONCE (loosened her front teeth)
    ... and since then she's always tried to fall backwards.
    
    So, instead of trying to stop her from standing, climbing, hanging,
    sliding, swinging, running ... we've tried to show her how to "break her 
    fall on her way down!".
    
    I'm not aware of any method for "teaching them the consequences of
    their innocense and investigative curiosity" ... just pray they don't
    break their necks while they're learning all about gravity!!
    
    Dottie
    
    

    re .1
    
    Carol,
    
    We just had a mishap at the baby sitters last friday. Our 7 month old
    daughter, Taylor, went down a flight of stairs in her walker. She ended
    up with a fractured skull. It;s amazing though, she is in great spirits
    and is normal, no pressure on the brain, the hospital did a CT Scan and
    showed nothing wrong, no cuts, just a little bruise onthe forehead that
    has already gone away, they kept her overnight just in case and let her
    out first thing the next morning. Our baby sitter was in worse shape
    than Taylor, needless to say the walker is now retired.
    
                                  jeff

    re. .3 
    
    Jeff (and Taylor and babysitter) -
    
    You poor things....I'm glad to hear that she is/will be fine.
    As you're aware, it only takes 2 seconds.
    
    Best wishes,
    Carol

    I personally believe that children need to fall to learn where the
    limits are. I'm not talking about letting them fall down a flight of
    stairs so they learn to go down backwards; I'm talking about the little
    falls from trying to climb out of their walker or taking those first
    steps. We never really discouraged our son from trying something
    physical (assuming their was no absolute danger) and did make "light"
    of falls so he wasn't afraid to try. Consequently, we had a very early
    walker and a very physically advanced kid. We did secure his world and
    made sure he was on carpeting most of the time or the soft lawn but
    with ceramic tile floors he did take some nasty falls and usually came
    up smiling more determined to continue doing what he was doing. 
    
    Kids fall. Just don't let they try swinging from the over-head fan
    until you are sure they know how to land with bent knees ;>) Just
    kidding. They need to find their physical limitations (not the
    limitation of where a bone breaks) and learn to expand. 
    
    I have a friend who constantly said to her son "don't do that, you
    might fall". The kid sat and didn't move until he was 18 months old and
    I'm not kidding. I doubt he knew what "fall" even meant but she stopped
    him from trying everything. There is a happy medium but I think the
    child helps to set it depending upon how much physical freedom they are
    willing to take on at any particular point in their life. 
    
    Andrea  

When Sam was learning to crawl around, he would scoot all over
the place. One day, I was down in the family room and he wanted
daddy so I was trying to get him to turn around and back down the
stairs like he has done. To my amazement, he belly-surfed down
the stairs. He giggled when I ran over to pick him up.

I must have added 5 years to my hair colour that moment.

calvin

    To answer the basenote's question, with few exceptions, kids suddenly
    understand how dangerous childhood play can be at the point when they
    become parents.  The lucky ones then manage to unlearn this to a
    certain degree, so that they don't age due to worry three times faster
    than their kids.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    re: .6
    
    Cal:
    
    I laughed when I read your note, as JA did the same as "Sam".  One day
    Jim was folding clothes in the basement, turned around and couldn't
    find JA.  He called and called her ... to no avail.  He started
    panicing and then he heard this little voice ... but it sounded like it
    came from "upstairs"? ... and here she was, on the top stair, sitting
    nice and pretty with a big grin on her face which said "see, Dad, I
    made it all the way to the top!"
    
    We keep these stairs "gated" (as there's 14 of them with a large,
    ceramic landing!) ... but there's only 3 in the front entrance and JA
    tried those on a "belly surf", too -- unfortunately, there was a large
    hurricane "tree" at the bottom, which stopped her "quite abruptly".
    She hasn't tried that AGAIN! -- Usually one split lip will cure her for
    awhile!
    
    Can't stop them from "trying" ... they'll always "seek out" something!
    And they're usually too "quick" to grab before they've already started
    their stunt.
    
    Dottie   (who always gets to "put JA back together again!"

    So I can assume from all of this that at some magical age he will
    understand the concept of falling, but choose to "go for it" at times,
    if the reward seems worth the price of a fall?  I still don't see him
    attempt to catch himself if he leans back too far, or attempt to right
    himself when he starts to fall over, so I guess he needs a few more
    months of development, or a few more experiences of falling before he
    figures this out?  I just wish he would learn that he can't walk yet,
    so that when he cruises to the end of the couch he doesn't try to
    continue into thin air!  Although, I must admit, I'm get pretty
    good at those acrobatic feats of charging over and sliding a hand under
    his little head before it hits the hardwood floor!  I wonder if it
    occurs to him "Gee, Mom was over there a second ago, and now she's on
    the floor with me"!
    
    Sarah
    

    He'll learn about falling by falling, and he'll fall a few thousand
    times before he is a good walker.  Then he'll start falling out of
    jungle gyms.  Get used to it, and let him fall.  His head is designed
    to take the punishment, even of whacking a hard floor.  Just try to
    move furniture with hard, sharp corners or edges to where he is not
    likely to strike it on the way down.
    
    If you succeed in protecting him from unpleasant falls now (as opposed
    to dangerous ones), he will just learn more slowly, and probably be
    more subject to injury when he is larger and heavier.
    
    		- Bruce

As I read all these replies, I realize we've been doing the 'let them grow' 
philosophy almost subconsciously.  With two little boys, I was forwarned that
they would constantly get into scraps, and if I start to panic early, I and the
boys will defnitiely go gray early.  G-d bless my most wonderful daycare 
provider who has the most practical manner I have ever seen.

In our household, it's the inverse of the 'typical' - Mom tends to be much more
relaxed and into 'rough-housing' - while my husband is always going 'don't do
that - he could fall, he might hurt himself......  Fortunately, we let the boys
understand the limits, and so far (knock on wood) it has worked. For example -
one of our favorite games is riding horsey on Mom's tummy while she does 
sit-ups.  The kids like it 'cuase they always play at FALLING OFF!.  And 
sure enough, after a yaer of doing this (Matt started as soonas he could sit
up, Mike's a pro now), they really know how and where to fall.   If we are 
near the couch - without coaching, they head for the other side.  If there are 
hard toys on the floor - they miss them.  And they know that they don't do it
on the wood floor or linoleum.  As a matter of fact, when I had Mike riding 
real horsey on my back (me crawling - so much fun) he wanted me to chase Matt
into the kitchen (ouch said my knees) - and do you know, it's the FIRST time
he's really held on!  He knew that he didn't want to fall or play fall away
from the grass or rug.  It is amazing what they learn!

I really do advocate the let them have room conceptually.  Also when they do 
fall, it is amazing how much less crying there is when Mom and Dad don't 
'react.'  Matty took a spill last night, and cut his knee pretty bad.  We just
picked him up, and Mike immediately started talking about how lucky he was -
cause he could have a bandaid.  All it took was a minute of cuddling, and he
was back on the road!

I 'm rambling.  Better stop before I fall!

Minda

    Just for general info...most infants start perceiving depth at 12
    weeks; by 20 weeks depth perception is intact.  (I've taken both my
    girls to MIT for infant studies in their vision labs; these are the
    numbers the MIT folks have concluded.  Surprisingly early, isn't it?) 
    
    What is known as "visual cliff withdrawal" usually starts around 7
    months.  That is, a baby will perceive the depth and withdraw or become
    anxious around the apparent precipice.  (This is in an experimental
    setting.)
    
    The problem with real life is that babies rarely pay attention to
    "visual cliffs" if they are otherwise occupied.  So...while an 11 month
    old is able to peceive and "understand" a cliff, they're rarely
    concentrating on the cliff if they're reaching for something.  Hence,
    they inadvertently fall...not because they can't perceive, but because
    they were paying attention to some goal.