Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Rich,
    
    We cannot completely relate to worrying about our son and his wife
    sharing our bed with us but we certainly have worried that Berk might
    prefer our bed over his own. He has occasionally wanted nothing but our
    bed and us and then went for a very long stretch of being content with
    his own bed (and my pillow - we figured he'd think he still had a part
    of me with him). We'll he's in the dreaming stage now and wakes and
    remembers his dreams so a hollering child comes running down the hall,
    blanket in tow, yelling "spiders"!! There is no way he'll go back to
    his bed. So, between the two of us a little SNORING boy gets to sleep - 
    head propped up on daddy and feet propped up on mommy. I'm glad
    someone gets a good night sleep!!! He will also talk in his sleep. If
    only he had good gossip to share but it is usually about the kids at
    his daycare - the girls in particular.
    
    I do love taking naps with him. Kids are so peaceful when they sleep
    and he usually puts a arm around me or will hold my hand. 
    
    Andrea _whose_pillow_cost_alot_less_then_bunk_beds   ;>)
    		(I guess we got off pretty cheap!)

    Eric (now 23 months) doesn't sleep in our bed.  However, he
    insists we sleep in his bed.  He is out of crib since 1 year
    old, and has been sleeping in a twin bed.  Everynight, when
    he is ready for bed, he will ask either Mommy or Daddy to
    go to bed with him and tells him stories.  Since he usually
    falls asleep within 10 minutes, we are not concerned.  Plus,
    we really enjoy this 10 minutes bed time with him.  I just
    love to hold him, his so soft, smells so good and so sweet.  
    I think I will really miss it, if he stops doing it.
    
    Wendy
    

    
    
    It's amazing the behavior parents will put up with in order to be 
    _allowed_ to sleep.  Chronic fatigue does strange things to good 
    instincts.  "How to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems," saved our 
    jobs, our sanity, our marriage, etc...  
    
    Sweet dreams.

    
    My son just turned 1yr. July 12th.  My husband would like to get him a
    twin bed, but I'm just curious when is a good age?? Some friends had
    said they are ready when they climb out of their crib, - well he's 
    never tried to climb out of his crib because he knows thats where he
    goes to sleep and lately he's been real good about it.  
    
    
    -Nadine (concerned mom)

    We happened to be moving into a new house when my daughter was about
    14 months old and I couldn't see setting up the crib again for just
    a couple of months.  We put her in a twin bed with absolutely no 
    problems at all.  As a mater of fact, the first time she ever fell 
    out of bed she was almost six years old.  We never bothered purchasing
    a safety bar, but one side of her bed was against a wall and she
    doesn't move a lot in her sleep.   Also, the drop from bed to floor 
    wasn't high.   If you child is an active sleeper, it may be worth 
    piece of mind to pick one up.
    
    
    

    What's the rush?  
    
    Many make the transition to a bed when the child begins to try to 
    climb out of the crib because it becomes a safety issue as the child
    might fall trying.  I made the switch when I found Paige dangling
    from a leg caught in between the bars!  I think she was 2.
    
    On the other hand, it can also be a process keeping the child, 
    specially an active one on a bed without falling out in the middle of 
    the night.  Safety bars help.  

                 Sweeter slumber for tots who sleep solo
                            by K. A. Fackelman
           from _Science News_, vol 138, no 6 (August 11, 1990)

    Many a toddler has climbed into bed with mommy and daddy after waking
    from a nightmare or thunderstorm in the wee hours of the morning.
    While a new study gives that infrequent practice the nod, the
    researchers warn that tots who get in the habit of sleeping with their
    parents may suffer chronic sleep problems.

    Pediatricians have long advised parents against allowing children in
    their bed, citing a host of dangers including behavioral problems for
    the child and in some cases sexual abuse.  The new research, while not
    addressing the issue of abuse, offers reassurance that infrequent bed
    sharing usually causes no general adjustment difficulties for the
    child.

    Deborah Madansky and Craig Edelbrock of the University of Massachusetts
    Medical School in Worcester interviewed 303 parents of 2- and 3-year-
    olds.  In 55 percent of the households, they found, parents
    occasionally allowed children into their bed for at least part of the
    night.  Another 25 percent reported frequent -- more than once a week
    -- bed sharing with young children.

    Questionnaires administered to parents at the study's outset revealed
    no link between behavior difficulties and occasional bed sharing.
    However, toddlers who routinely slept with their parents more than once
    a week proved 10 times more likely to dislike sleeping alone and up to
    four times more likely to resist going to bed than children who rarely
    or never slept with their parents.  Such difficulties persisted or
    worsened in children who continued to sleep with their parents
    regularly through the course of the year-long study, the team reports
    in the August _Pedriatrics_.

    While parents may think they're helping restless tots, the study
    suggests that habitual bed sharing makes it more difficult for the
    child to get a full night's sleep.  People of all ages wake up
    periodically throughout the night, Madansky notes.  She recommends that
    parents encourage small children to go to bed alone and to fall back
    asleep without waking the rest of the household.

    "Most parents who are committed to solving their child's sleep problems
    can solve them," she asserts.  Madansky advises parents to stop
    reinforcing the child's nocturnal visits and to offer a morning reward
    for a successful -- and solo -- night's sleep.

The fact that preferring to sleep with the parents is reinforced by 
frequently sleeping with the parents is scarcely an astonishing
discovery.  The fact that it is characterized as a problem, and as
a negative consequence of allowing the child to sleep with the 
parents, would seem to be a clear example of confirming a preconception.

The many families (our own included) who have more or less fully adopted
a "family bed" would, I think, regard their children's preference for that
practice as a recommendation in its favor, not against it.

The comments on sexual abuse, by the way, make no sense to me, unless the
concern is simply that family bed sleeping could make sexual abuse easier.

	-Neil

The following reply is being entered for a conference participant who prefers
to remain anonymous.

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When our 3 year old mentioned to his daycare center teacher that
he was sleeping in our bed, the teacher reported that to the
daycare center director who called us in and informed us that
if we didn't stop that IMMEDIATELY, she'd call in a child abuse
report on us.  Against our better judgement, we made our poor
scared-of-the-dark child sob himself to sleep in his own room
to satisfy the moral peculiarities of the daycare center.

<flame on>

In response to .9.....  this would have infuriated me to no end.  It doesn't
sound as if you moved your child but if there were other facilities
available I think mine would have been outa there in a second.

Also, I'm not sure how such a charge would hold up in court.  I have no idea
what state you're in, and even if I knew I'm not sure I would know of any
precedence in that state, but it would be worth looking into.

Another thing is to ask your pedi about how s/he feels about the effects on
your child of sleeping with you.  If s/he feels it is not abuse, have him/her
put it in writing and continue doing what YOU think is best.  This one really
gets me because we can't let the daycare centers start telling US how to raise
our children - we need to be more getting THEM to support OUR WAY!!!

<flame off>

posted anonymously...

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We decided not to move him because he was happy at that daycare
center, had friends there (he doesn't make new friends easily),
and was particularly attached to one of the teachers (not
the one who made a big stink about him sleeping with us).  We decided
it would be more damaging to him to take him out of the daycare
center than kick him out of our bed.  (He's a very sensitive shy
kid, and just as we felt he needed the security of adults sleeping
with him, we also felt he needed the security of the daycare center
and friends and teacher he'd grown close to.)

I'm *pretty* sure such a charge wouldn't have held up in court -- we asked
someone we knew who was a social worker who said it would be laughed
out of court if it got there.  But who knows what types of people
we might wind up dealing with in "the system".  We didn't really
want to take a chance.  But most importantly, we didn't want the director 
or the teacher who had reported it "taking it out on our kid" if
they thought we were uncooperative.

It was infuriating, and I was extremely torn about giving in, but
that's what we decided then and there's no reason feeling guilty
about our decision (yeah, like I don't feel guilty -- but I'm a Mom --
isn't feeling guilty my job?).

He's not absolutely banned from our bed -- he's almost always there
the minute he hears thunder...  And it only took a week or two before
he stopped seeming to mind going to sleep in his own room.  (I sure
do look forward to thunderstorms though.)

There is a good discussion of loving alternatives for sleep in "Nighttime 
Parenting" by Dr. William Sears.

I find it odd that while most people accept that kids develop at vastly
different rates they expect one model - sleeping alone, throught the night, from
infanthood on - to fit all kids.  I think it is worth trying out a few methods
to see what suits your child.  It also seems important to consider just what
your child learns about what he/she can expect from you when you let them cry
it out alone.

There is another book, "The Family Bed", that will probably only appeal to
those who favor or have an open mind towards sharing sleep.  

I'll post the complete information on these books in the "book" note when 
I am at home.

=ss

    I suspect that the major objection 'authorities' have against children
    sharing a family bed is that incest is more likely IF someone is so
    inclined when people are in such close physical proximity.
    
    I do think that the daycare center mentioned in an earlier note was 
    quite out of order with the threat they made given the ONLY issue 
    was sleeping in the same bed. 
    
    Our son does not share our bed with us.  But if I had been in the 
    situation the earlier noter was in with the center calling with a 
    threat like that I too would have been outraged.
    
    I think it speaks for the maturity of the noter when she said that
    (I think it was she, not he) they had decided to KEEP the child in
    that center because it was best for the child.  That in itself in
    my eyes says that they have the childs best interests at heart.
    
    Jeff

    One of the reasons for overreaction is that in this society, the
    bed is the main location of the marital couple's intimate
    relationships.  This is not true in many societies.  Other
    locations, notably the bath, the boat, the barn, or the fields,
    are much preferred for intimate activities, and the bed is for
    sleeping in.
    
    But because of the strong association between sex and bed ("going
    to bed together" is even a euphemism for sex), many people would
    worry that a 'family bed' situation involved the parents having
    sex in front of, or perhaps including, the child.  I'm not saying
    that this happens, only that people's cultural assumptions make
    them think it's more likely.
    
    My own reaction is that since I'm part of this culture, I'm not
    doing my kids any favors by teaching them habits that will make it
    hard for them to adjust to this culture unless I see a big gain
    from it.  Choose your battles, as they say. I don't see much gain
    from this.
    
    --bonnie

I am interested in how people kept a determined child in his/her own room.

Within the last few weeks Kati discovered she could get out of her bed.  She
would follow me out of her room after putting her to bed, over and over and
over - until finally I would just lay down with her until she fell asleep.
Too many times I would fall asleep too, and there goes my evening!  Then she
would get up and come to our room in the middle of the night too.

I knew of a friend who had this problem years ago, and he said that he solved
it by turning the lock around on the bedroom door and locking his daughter in.
He described her banging, kicking, yelling every excuse in the book (I need
some water, I have to go to the bathroom, etc.) but they didn't budge.  At the
time it sounded like the most cruel and insensitive thing in the world to me.  
But I called my pedi and she recommended locking Kati in her room.

I tried it for one night and it was so painful.  She banged on the door and
kicked and cried, and finally fell asleep right in front of the door.  I hated
it.  But the next night she didn't get out of bed, and the next night, etc...
Then last week she tried it again - followed my husband out of her room over
and over and over, until finally he let her come sleep with us.  Last night I
had to "lock her in" again, and the same routine.  Only this time my husband
was home to hear it all - banging, kicking, yelling, etc....  and WW III just
about erupted.  He says this is NOT the way to do it (but he offers no
alternatives).

To me it seems like a painful approach, but I just have to remind myself of
the long-term benefits for her and myself (aside from the fact that my next one
is due in less than 4 weeks, and we will be losing sleep with that one too!) -
like when she gets shots.  What other methods are tried and true?

Thanks,
Kristen

    
    
    Re: .15
    
    Hi Kristen.
    
    I don't have too much advise to give--only that perhaps this one
    book on sleeping problems may help.  I have not ready personally but
    my neighbor and some noters have recommended it highly.  Perhaps some
    noters who have the book can look and see if it has the info you need.  
    I know if I had it when Doug was little, I would have had a gentler
    method of breaking him of his sleeping problems.  The name of the book 
    is SOLVE YOUR CHILD'S SLEEP PROBLEMS by Dr. Ferber.   
    
    Doug was doing beautifully at 5 weeks old with sleeping for about 7 to 
    9 hours although getting to sleep too early and waking up about 4:30 a.m.; 
    then the ear infections came.  He got very use to being nursed because I was
    not too sure how to comfort him or if he was hungry or hurting.  He
    finally had tubes put in at 5 months.  I broke him of the nursing habit
    but then he wouldn't sleep unless I was holding him.  Like you, it became 
    a question that I could not go on with the situation.  Fortunately, divine
    providence was with me and my husband slept through three terrible nights 
    of crying--one was for about 2 1/2 hours.   
    
    As Doug got older we went through many of the sleeping problems
    previously stated.  Going to his bed and sleeping with him worked for
    awhile until I returned to my bed.  Then many times, he'd wake up and
    we would start all over.  For awhile he was coming into our bed and
    sometimes Mark or I would go to his bed so could get some sleep.  At
    about 4 (I know you can't wait that long with Katie), I could reason
    more with him.  He typically is allowed to watch 1 hour of his T.V.
    programs a day, Monday through Friday.  We started a rule that if he got 
    into our bed before 4:30 or 5:00 a.m. (forget which), that he would not
    watch his programs.  This way, he had to make a judgement if sleeping
    with us was worth it to him.  It also allowed him to know that if he
    had a bad dream, then he could still be comforted--though a price would
    be paid because the behaviour was undesireable.
    
    One thing you have to do to be successful with Katie, is get your
    husband to back you up.  Doug's pedicatrian told me to be "consistent"
    and it's true.  You and your husband have to agree otherwise Katie will 
    not change.  
    
    I hope the book can help.  
    
    
    From another Mom who thought she'd never sleep through the night again. 
     
    
    					Darlene
    
    
    
    

    I've got the book ("Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems") and I got it
    out and re-read the chapter on solving the problem.  Although Ferber
    suggests closing the door, he does not suggest closing it for long
    periods at a time like I was doing.
    
    I have finally gotten her to go to bed with no problems - no fussing,
    no pacifier, she just says "night night," waves at me, then I leave (I
    do shut her doors, but the light is pretty bright otherwise).  She
    wakes up consistently between 1AM and 3AM and cries and cries. 
    Sometimes we just give in and give her the pacifier (*TOTALLY* against
    Ferber's good judgement!), but she still wants to move in with us. 
    Last night was more than 2 hours of putting her back in her bed, coming
    back in to comfort, etc.... but she finally got back to sleep.
    
    Hopefully the next big step (sleep THROUGH the night) will come soon -
    it only took a few nights for the bedtime routine to straighten out.
    
    All other suggestions WELCOME!   (yawn)
    
    Kristen

    
    
    Kristen,
    
    Is she old/mature enough to understand positive incentives such as a 
    star on a chart every time she sleeps through the night?  Or perhaps 
    another reward would motivate better?  If memory is correct, she is 
    about 18, 19 months old, right?
    
    Could her room be too light?  Is she getting out of bed to come to your
    bed or is she crying to have you go to her room?  If she is crying for
    you to come to her, you may try to darken her room more.  (Another
    thing we went through with Doug.  The night light in the bathroom was
    still too bright that was probably was waking him up.)  
    
    Hope you can get some ZZZZs soon before baby #2 comes along.
    
    
    					Darlene

Darlene,

Great memory - she just turned 20 months this weekend.  I often underestimate
her mental abilities, but I really don't think she can understand stars on
a calendar.  Her room could be too bright - good point.  Before we moved she
slept in total darkness.  Now I keep a night light on in the bathroom because
she is on the other side of the house - maybe I should try going without the
light.   When she wakes up, she just wants company - I'm not sure she cares
whether she's in our bed or I'm in hers.  She'll cry for a few minutes and if
nobody comes to her bed, then she heads out for ours.  She just plain doesn't
want to be alone.  I ask her if she's scared and she says yes, but I'm not sure
she understands what scared is.

Last night she stayed in her room all night, and didn't even wake up for her
pacifier or anything.  You can bet she got praises and praises and praises this
morning - let's hope she is motivated by them!

Kristen_who_wakes_up_3_to_5_times_to_go_to_the_bathroom_even_when_the_kid_
finally_sleeps_through_the_night!

I posted this before so I hope I don't sound like a broken record for another
point of view.

Please read "Nighttime Parenting" by William Sears, MD

It has many tips for gently dealing with your child's nighttime needs at 
various ages.

IMHO, I think we need to figure out how to meet our family needs 24 hours a day.
In our house, that means a nap for me on the weekend and being up at night.  You
have my sympathy - I wonder what it will be like, working and being pregnant and
taking care of a child.  But I can't imagine letting my child think he won't be
cared for by me or dad or grandma when he needs someone.

Good luck,

=ss

    
    ==ss,
    
    >>>   But I can't imagine letting my child think he won't be
    >>>   cared for by me or dad of grandma when he needs someone.
    
    IMHO, you may be confusing "needs" with "desires".   I agree with 
    helping/comforting a sick, pained, frightened, etc. child but don't
    think that's really the problem in Kristen/Katie's case (correct me
    if I'm wrong, Kristen!).
    
    Is napping during the day/being up at night the approach advocated by
    the book you recommend?    If so, you might also want to check into
    Ferber's book for another viewpoint.
    
    Carol

    Other possible causes of the night waking:

	1. Anxiety left over from the daytime.  This is usually the cause
	   of our older son's (rare) nighttime wakenings, as far as we can tell.
	   Right before a new baby arrives (and of course also right
	   afterwards) is stressful for the whole family.  The usual tips
	   apply here - pay more attention to the child, don't expect too
	   much, let her to regress a bit to more babyish behavior, etc.

	2. Is your bathroom near Katie's room?  Maybe your late-night trips
	   there are just enough noise to disturb her sleep if the timing's
	   just right (if one of them happens to coincide with a light-sleep
	   state for her).

			cheryl

    
    
    One other thing comes to mind, Kristen.
    
    If Katie has a favorite stuffed toy of medium to large size, maybe she
    would feel she was with "someone".  If she still doesn't settle down
    for a complete night's sleep, you may want to try that if you already
    aren't.
    
    It sounds like you are making progress.  Hang in there!
    
    
					Darlene
    

>Is napping during the day/being up at night the approach advocated by
>the book you recommend?   

No.

>confusing "needs" with "desires"

This is certainly one where we all have to find our own way.  I see a 
need or desire to be with a parent as one that should be accomodated as much 
as seems reasonable for my family circumstances.  I don't see a <3 year old 
with immature sleep patterns as having a problem but that's often debated in 
the field.

Thanks for the polite disagreement.

=ss

re: .15

I have nothing to offer but sympathy.

We faced the same problem for the same reason.  Lara had gotten into coming 
into our bedroom, and/or demanding a 30 to 45 minute back rub, and we felt the 
need to break the habit --  #2 was coming.  We discussed the problem with our 
ped, and got the same advice you did, only we didn't have to lock her in -- 
shutting the door did the trick.

The first night was totally awful.  Our ped said that the screaming might go 
on for a couple of hours.  And it did.  There were times that my wife and I 
had to almost physically restrain ourselves.  Eventually, she went to sleep -- 
in her bed.  The second night, it was about one hour.  The third night, it was 
about thirty minutes, but we had a major setback when the phone rang and woke 
her up.  After about a week, things stabilized, and she went to sleep in her 
own room.  Lara was about three at the time.

There are the obvious things you can do, such as warning her ahead of time and 
giving extra doses of hugs during the day.  And I can't overemphasize the 
importance of you and your husband supporting each other.  Perhaps if BOTH you 
and your husband talk to the ped, that might help enlist his committed 
support.   Also, I think it helped us a lot to understand in advance how long 
it might go on.

re: .20 

One of the main reasons I'd be reticent would be the fear of making it a 
habit, or making her dependent on it to sleep at all.  Your comment about 
"immature sleep pattern" makes it sound as if it might be something that she 
will outgrow -- which sounds entirely plausible to me.  I'd be interested in 
your input in a couple of years.

Also, there are some parents who believe that having a child in the bed is not 
a problem at all.

Clay

    We found through extended trial and error that we were trying to
    make Steven get the amount of sleep the average child needs, not
    the amount of sleep *he* needs -- he wouldn't stay in his room at
    2 or 3 because we were trying to put him to bed way before he was
    ready.
    
    What finally worked for us -- and we didn't figure it out until he
    was 4, after a couple of years of the kinds of struggles you
    describe -- was having several different "milestones" on the way
    to bedtime:
    
    -- pajama time:  he gets himself read for bed, except for brusing
          his teeth 
    -- story time:  we read to him, or tell him a story.
    -- snack time:  not always necessary, but if he doesn't have it
          now, he can't claim he's hungry
    -- time to go to his room:  he brushes his teeth, then reads or
          plays quietly at whatever he chooses
    -- sleep time
    
    Since he's generally not ready for sleep until about the same time
    we are, we thought for sure he'd start having problems getting
    along with the kids at school or getting too crabby in the
    afternoon, but he got along better with other kids, immediately
    started having fewer temper tantrums, was able to sit still for
    longer and work through more difficult problems, like puzzles that
    he didn't used to have patience for, and generally has been a more
    cheerful, more stable kid ever since.
    
    --bonnie

  RE. 15

  My son had problems sleeping near the end of my pregnancy and I think he
  was a little anxious about what was going to happen.  He was 26months
  at the time.  After the baby arrived and he saw that his life wasn't
  completely changed, (he still went to daycare, mommy still hugged him
  etc.) he settled down.  Do you think Katie is aware enough the sense
  the end of your pregnancy?  Just a thought.

  Karin

    My daughter is only six months old, so I haven't had to try this,
    but...
    
    I read to use a gate in the doorway instead of shutting the door.
    This way the child can see out but can't get out.  
    
    I don't know if it will work, but it might be worth a try.  
    
    judy

    My son Thomas (18 1/2 months) normally sleeps through the night
    except when he's sick or teething.  I have at times, brought him
    back into bed with my husband and I until he falls back to sleep
    and then returned him to his crib.  I know, someone out there is
    already saying, BIG MISTAKE!  Well, I know this, but now what do
    I do.  When he does wake up now in the middle of the night (any-
    where from 2-5 times) for whatever reason, he wants to come back
    to bed with me.  I'd like to correct this before it gets any 
    worse, but to be honest I don't like any advise I've gotten from
    other parents or doctors.  
    
    If you let them cry, you can't sleep.  If you go and check them
    after 5-10 minutes to make sure they're not sick and then try to
    leave them, it's worse because they've already seen you.  
    
    Could any of you share any suggestions or stories on how you 
    coped with this and still got up for work?!!
    
    Tired of This....

    My son who will be 18 months old next Monday is going through the same
    thing.  I too would welcome any advise.
    
    Lori B.

I would suggest starting with topic 135, "Sleep Problems in Infant/Toddler",
where you will find 200 notes dedicated to variations on your problem (almost
all answered with enthusiastic endorsements for Farber's _Solve Your Child's
Sleep Problems_).

Or, you could listen to the tiny minority of us who ask, "So what's the big
problem about sharing a bed with your child?"

	-Neil

    We have a rocking chair in Russell's (16+mo) room.  He also has been
    getting up lately with either teeth or an ear infection.  I usually try
    to let him go back to sleep by himself, but if after letting him cry
    for a few minutes, he's still upset, I'll go into his room, rock him
    for awhile (usually no more that 10-15 minutes).  This relaxes him
    enough to go back to sleep.  Sometimes after a couple of rocks he falls
    asleep.  Then the problem is getting him from the rocking chair to the
    crib.  
    
    Also, have you tried getting a monitor?  At least you'd be able to hear
    them breathing etc, so maybe you wouldn't feel like you had to go into
    the room as often?
    
    Hope this helps........
    
    marianne
    

    
    	I second the rocking chair!  I've put many miles on it with
    	Matthew, also 18, almost 19 months.  Usually if Matthew wakes
    	up during the night, it's either ear infection or teething.  I 
    	just went though a horrible month of this with him.  I'll give
    	him tylenol and then rock him back to sleep.  Like .32 though, its
    	sometimes very hard getting him back into the crib when he falls
    	asleep...especially with my being 4+ months pregnant.  Im fortunate
    	that Matt doesn't like sleeping with us.  He's a very restless
    	sleeper and likes his own crib.
    
    	Good Luck...it's horrid having to get up the next morning after 
    	them waking 2-3 times a night!
    
    	Ellen

    
    Re: Rocking Chair
    
    We moved our nice big Lazy-Boy recliner into the baby's room - it 
    is the best and most-used piece of "baby" furniture we ever bought!!
    
    It is the place where the two kids (1 and 3) and I (or hubby) soothe 
    (in times of sickness), play, cuddle, read, sing etc. (happy times).
    
    Pam 

    Well, I've tried the rocking chair, that doesn't work because he wakes
    up when I try to put him back in his crib.  I have a monitor from when
    he was an infant, but his room is 4 feet across the hall from our (a
    small cape w/ 2 bdrms upstairs), so it isn't that I can't hear him. 
    
    I guess I failed to mention also, that I really LOVE him in bed with
    us.  It's more my husband that doesn't think it's a good idea (and he
    sleeps through most of it, go figure!)  I guess my fears have arrisen
    more because of hearing it's a BAD habit to get into.  I'm not really
    all that opposed to it, and I also figure he'll grow out of it??
    
    To .34, I think the Lazy-Boy idea is a great one, and alot more 
    comfortable than even a nice rocking chair. 
    
    Linda
    

Evan is 3.10 years old and when he has a bad dream (or needs us for another 
reason in the night) then he comes into our room.  I lift the covers, and he
crawls into bed with us.  I usually tell him that he can stay for x minutes,
with x being 1 or 2, and he agrees, then after a while I tell him the time is
up.  He either gets out of bed and puts himself back to bed or else he asks me
to carry him, but either way he *rarely* gives me a fuss.  I think he just
needs to know that we are available if he needs us. 

Shellie sleeps right through this, but I can't sleep with him there (most of
the time) so it's important to me that he doesn't *stay*.  However, a minute or
two is no big deal to me, and he seems to feel better because of it.

       Carol

    My opinion, and this differs from the majority in this file, is that
    if you don't mind, your husband sleeps through it, and you want to
    do it then do it.  It is not 'bad' for the child, or the parents if
    everyone is comfortable and getting much required rest.  I firmly
    believe that it is not 'BAD' for the child - my son is living proof
    of that he sleep with us on occasion when he was small, under 3, and
    has sleep with us on very rare occasions now - when he's sick, if one
    of us goes away for an extend time then he may sleep with the stay at
    home parent as a special treat one of the nights. 
    
    It's only 'bad' if you/your husband/your child is not comfortable with
    the arrangement - it will not do any long term damage to anyone - again
    this is all my opinion only!!  Do what feels right for your family -
    that's what is best!
    
    Regards,
    
    Kathy

    	With Shayne, I usually will lay down in HIS bed with him until he 
    goes back to sleep then I go back into our bed.  I find that this way 
    he doesn't wake up again by moving him, and his dad doesn't have the 
    opportunity to complain about being bothered. 
    

Not sure what "changed for the better", but we saw a marked improvement when:

	.  we replaced the crib with a twin bed and make a BIG DEAL
		about "Juli's bed" ... and ONLY "Juli's bed" (to the
		point she didn't WANT "us" to sit or lay on it with her!)

	.  we give Juli a NON-sugar treat and milk before bedtime
		(eg. chicken nuggets, cereal, cheese sandwich, banana, etc.)

	.  we allow her to take toys into her bed, but she can NOT leave
		the bed (or we take the toys)

	.  we leave her bedroom door OPEN so she can see the light and
		hear us (we haven't left town!)

	.  allow her de-wind time (to bounce around, roll around,
		rearrange pillows ... let her play her tape cassette
		player, cover the distance of the mattress 20X over! ...)

	.  once asleep, we remove as many toys as we can and cover her

If she wakens during the night (mostly nightmares, I think!), we let her
choose Mommy or Daddy (usually Mommy! awwggh!) ... and she demands "Juli's
bed" (won't have anything to do with our bed!) ... and we nestle her
between pillows and bears, cover her up and rub her back (rubs fading)
for 10-20 minutes ... and she's usually back to sleep for the rest of the
night (and usually sleeps until 8:30-9:30 am on Sat/Sun - YEAH!!!!)

Up until her 2nd birthday (when we introduced the bed), bedtime was a horror
show, followed by many concessions (rocking chair, Mom/Dad's bed, many sips
of milk, many trips to her bedroom) ... a long, difficult, nerve-racking time!

We also found that if we "ticked-her-off-royally" just prior to bedtime
(or enroute to bedtime), we had a LONG, MISERABLE evening ahead of us!  So
we tried to be patient and accommodating (extra milk, 5 more minutes, extra
potty run, lots of toys in the bed ... ) and found that if we went along with
Juli's "last-minute" requests, she faded off to sleep much easier.

We also set a time (9 pm) to turn off HER bedroom light (she can keep the toys,
but no room light).  Anytime preceding that is in-the-bed-playtime (dewind).

This may not work for other kids/parents ... but it seems to be the best
solution we've come up with for "us Jensen's".

Dottie

    It's a "bad habit" only if it bothers somebody or is keeping somebody
    from sleeping.  
    
    It bothers me a lot because it interferes with spousal privacy,
    which is hard enough to come by without letting the kid hang out
    in the marital bed. 
    
    As far as bad habits, in the sense of ways of doing things that
    interfere with the family's health and well-being, my experience
    with Kat is that rocking the baby to sleep is way up there.  She
    got to where she expected to be rocked to sleep and didn't learn
    how to put herself to sleep.  It's pretty easy to talk a kid into
    sleeping in a different place (big bed, sleeping bag at
    grandmother's house, etc.) so if your son's going to sleep on his
    own in your bed, it's probably better than rocking him to sleep.  
    
    A lot of people think there's some connection between letting him
    sleep with you now, and having trouble getting him to stay in his
    own bed later.  But Steven had no problems sleeping alone when he
    was little; it wasn't until he hit 3 or 4 that he hated being
    alone.  We compromised on letting him sleep in a sleeping bag on
    the floor of our bedroom when he was really scared or lonely.
    
    --bonnie

Well, I disagree to some extent.  It can be bad depending on the individual case
and each person must judge their own circumstances.  A friend of mine let his
five year old child sleep in his bed after he divorced when she stayed on
the weekends.  He had lots of problems when he finally wanted to remarry
getting her to sleep in her own bed and not having her feel as if she a) had
replaced Mommy and b) was being replaced by the new woman in her father's life.

Ok, I realise that this is a bit exteme and the circumstances special but we 
tried to exercise care in having the children in our bed and the message we 
give them.  When they were little, we loved the weekend romp in Mommy and 
Daddy's bed and the tickling and playing in the bed covers.  But any child 
coming in at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning was firmly but gently led back to bed
with the admonition that it wasn't yet morning and we needed our sleep.

The other occassion when we would take them into our bed was when they were
sick and needed the extra comforting.  But then, Like I said, to each his own.

ccb

    An interesting observation on this subject has just occured to me.  AJ
    who just turned 5, will do a middle of thenight visit to our bedroom. 
    What occured to me a couple nights ago is unless his awakening is
    weather related, i.e. very windy, sleet beating on the window etc, he
    will almost wake up on the night of the full moon, plus a day or two
    either side of it.  OK no myths of old wives tales necessary, I've
    poo-pood it too, but this really seems to be a pattern.  Do any of you
    notice a similar pattern?
    
    By the way he will attempt to crawl into bed with us, but in most cases
    one of us will turn him right around and accompany him back.  The only
    exception is if he is feeling cold to us.  Then I will cuddle him only
    for a couple minutes, long enough to warm him up, then right back to
    bed.  We usually steer him towards the bathroom for a little drink and
    potty, but right back to bed.  We also find on the nights he's been up
    that he's less than excited about getting up in the morning.
    
    Lyn

    
    RE: Lyn
    
    Absolutely!!!!!   I agree with you 100%.  On the whole, Jason is
    a very good sleeper for a 2-year old (Thank you, Dr. Ferber!).
    BUT....it never fails, every month, we will have 1-2 nights of
    mid-morning wakings within +/- 2 days of the full moon.  Thankfully,
    he goes back down easily (Thanks again, Dr. Ferber!).   What's more,
    I also suffer from disturbed sleep rhythm during this period as 
    well.
    
    Carol

    I want to thank all of your for all the suggestions, ideas and
    comments.  If nothing else, I certainly don't feel as guilty about
    doing something wrong in letting him in bed with us sometimes.
    I think lying down with him is a great idea, but unpractical at this
    age (18 1/2 mo) since he's still in a crib.  
    
    Like anything, moderation is the key.  On the nights I can manage
    to stay awake while bending over his crib and rubbing his back 
    until he falls back to sleep, I do that.  On others when he just
    won't lie back down, or I'm just too exhausted to stand there, I'll
    bring him back to bed.  At least we BOTH get back to sleep that way
    and I usually wake up in an hour or so and put him back in his own
    crib anyway.
    
    Linda
    

    
    re: .44
    
    Have you considered laying down on the floor next to his crib?
    I've done this a couple of times during illness and found it to
    work well.
    
    Carol

    Our situation is similar to Carol's. When Justine really insists on
    sleeping in our bed (my husband usually is the one to agree with this
    and he falls asleep immediately) we let her then after about 15 minutes
    I tell her it's time to go to her bed and she's fine with that.
    Actually the last time she did this, I fell asleep before I made her
    go to her bed and she woke me up to take her to her bed (I think I
    trained her). 
    
    Justine will be 3 next month. I guess we did it this way because it
    happened so infrequently or when she was sick (ear infections do hurt
    more after lying prone) it seemed so small a thing to do. Plus at 18
    months I was still nursing her. Who knows, somehow with all the "bad"
    things I did to make habits it ended up okay. So maybe you're not
    doomed.
    
    Jan