Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Kristin,
    
    I do sympathize, an I'm sure what you don't want to hear is the old
    "boys will be boys" line.  BUT.... you seemed more disturbed that no
    one had told you one of you charmin'children has a hyperactivity
    disorder.  Please, read my note, which is probably the one preceeding
    this one. I have had problems with teachers seeing misbehavior in my
    son who is "mildly" hyperactive, and labeling it as hyperactive
    behavior, when in fact it is just plain old normal boy behavior!
    
    I do sympathize with what you are going through, but what I think the
    problem here is, more than the behavior is that you seem to have more
    children than you should or could handle.  I also seem offended by
    using your husband, both his size and manhood, as a tool to discipline.
    We don't do, nor allow that sort of thing in our home, and I would as a
    parent be offended if someone pulled that tactic on our son (who is
    also 5 by the way).  It just somehow sound like you're bullying them
    into behaving.
    
    It is a give that 90% of all hyperactive chilren (by the way the term
    now is ADHD=Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) are boys.  We are
    in the midst of a 9 week parent training class for parents of ADHD
    children.  What we have learned quite definitely is that you will get
    more and quicker results by using a lot of self control and tons of
    praise to these children.  They need constant reinforcement or their
    positive traits, even material rewards.  Perhaps just changing your
    approach will win the boys over to your side.
    
    I apologize for coming on a little strong, but this thing tends to send
    up a red flag in me. 
    
    (please contact me if you would like to know more, from my first hand
    experiences of dealing with an ADHD child, with some mild oppositional
    behavior, I have some handouts from the training classes that might
    help)
    
    Lyn

    I also meant to add that we have not brought our son to church or
    Sunday school since he was 3.5.  He tried to leave the nursery and got
    as far as the door near the parking lot.  I removed him because the
    teacher seemed distraught with his behavior, and I decided that if he
    was too much for her that I just would not send him  nor attend church.
    
    Lyn
    (who used to be a SS teacher herself!)

    I think you need to talk with the Church School coordinator about the
    objectives of the Church School.  If the classes are essentially to
    provide "babysitting" and a stress-free environment for the parents 
    while the parents attend the services then the director is probably
    taking a resonable course (although I think it's rather bizarre
    myself).  
    
    If the objective is to provide religious instruction for the children
    in class, than lack of parental involvement is *absolutely*
    counter-productive.  If learning is the goal, than the director and the
    parents need to help you create an environment which facilitates that
    end.  Having disruptive children in a class is unfair to the other kids
    and unfair to you.  
    
    I've taught church school for the past 4 years.  We basically send kids 
    into church (for their parents to deal with them) if the behavior gets 
    too out of line.
    
    Good luck.  
    
    Lois

    I agree that not talking to the parents of the children is a 
    strange idea -- its involved the entire class, and personally,
    if I KNEW my child was hyperactive, and I tried to place him in
    a new class/situation, if I DIDN'T get any feedback I MIGHT assume
    that the instructor had a handle on things. 
    
    Lyn, I don't really understand what you mean by inferring that 
    sending Mr. Cox into the fray is an unfair tactic. It didn't seem
    underhanded to me. Anyone can label ANY kind of disciplinary action
    as "bullying" if they really want to. 
    
    Monica

    Pardon me while I strap down my jerking knee... but... my reaction
    would have been:
    
    1) I am *not* the padded-cell monitor;
    2) I am *not* the protector of the parental de-stress flotation tank;
    3) I am *not* going to stand by and watch willing students be driven
       away by unruly, and unreportable, behavior (no matter what its
       source);
    4) So, I'm outta here.    |-P
    
    Leslie

    to Monica and others, first my apologies.  I did come on to this a
    little stronger than was really apropriate.  
    
    Yes, maybe bullying was the wrong way to phrase this.  What I was
    trying to say was that if the boy offended *me* then it should be *me*
    not my husband who should step outside with the child.  In our home
    when our child gets out of hand with one of us, it's the parent who is
    being offended who deals with the child.
    
    "stepping outside to chat" has always been a phrase that sent me
    quaking in my shoes, no matter if it were a male or female teacher.
    
    I guess things may have changed.  When I attended or taught Sunday
    school the classes were aparently smaller, say about a dozen children
    per teacher, even if it meant having more than one class of a grade
    level.  Those numbers were manageable, and a pleasant memory in fact.
    
    I know that starting next fall, when AJ enters kindegarten that we will
    be enrolling him in Sunday school.  As I mentioned in my note previous
    to this, I initially won't mention any type of learning disability
    *unless* he is at that time enrolled in some type of special ed classes
    through public school.  Our SS school teachers do let the parents know
    how the children behave during class.  Our children go to Sunday school
    an hour or so before regular services, the the children are encouraged
    (well Strongly encouraged) to stay on for services.  There is a portion
    of the service where the children participate, and from what I've seen
    the kids really enjoy the time.  This minister and our last one have 4
    children each, and do some type of magic tricks that relate to some
    sort of Biblical or religious teaching.
    
    Maybe I'll give church another try this weekend.  Thanks for bringing
    this subject up.
    
    Lyn

    
    
    
    Perhaps you could try this without saying anything at all...
    
    Have you thought about volunteering parents as helpers?
    
    Each week have one or two parents come in and "help"
    out with the class each week.  
    
    If you can't say anything, perhaps one of the parents
    would!   Invite Pete's parents to "help" and see if
    he behaves any better with one of them around.   Then
    see if this is a problem that can be controlled.
    
    Pete's parents might become aware of the situation and
    could work with you and him if they only knew. 
    
    If the parents of the well behaved children see what
    happens perhaps they will offer their support to you
    as well.
    
    It sounds to me that the church is more concerned that
    they may upset a parent, instead of helping the child
    involved.
    
    Jeanne
    

Our church DOES seek out a parent ... and will even deliver the child to
the parent ... if the child is deemed "uncontrollable" (not sure what
constitutes "uncontrollable", though ... but does seem to me to be "teacher'(s)
discretion"!  So, I've seen my fair share of children being brought into
church and dropped off at Mom/Dad's pew.

Juli's too young for Sunday School, so I'm not sure how our church will handle
behavioral problems.

My brother-in-law has been a CCD teacher for years (15-20).  He
believes in church being a "sacred place to be treated with respect" ...
even for CCD!  Well, he will warn a child once (maybe twice - on a good day).
Next he calls the parent(s).  If the child doesn't improve, he tosses the
kid out of class for 3 weeks (and notifies the priest ... who has always
supported Jack).  Now ... Jack does NOT yell,threaten or get annoyed.  He just
kind of goes over to the kid, taps him on the shoulder, points to the chair
(or the door) and that's it!  Well, for some strange reason, my brother-in-law
seems to get the "adolescent boy" groupings!  And he's gotten MOST of them
through Confirmation (...and a few went by the wayside).  Jack beefed about
getting the "tough classes" each year, but now I think Jack sees it as yet
another challenge!

I guess I'm trying to say that our church and my sister/brother-in-law's
church are very supportive of their teaching staff and places the burden
of dealing with children's behavior "on the parent" ... not the teacher.

FWIW,
Dottie

    
    I think it's the Church School Director who's out of line here. As a
    CCD teacher, I am informed by our director of any of these type of
    issues with my class list in the fall. If I have a problem with any
    child in my class I work it through the director. I am a volunteer 
    and therefor should not be subjected to anything I can't handle or
    to dealing with discipline issues. I currently have 1 LD child in
    my 6th grade class and he's the best behaved of the bunch (but that's
    a whole other story!!!).
    

    
    Our program is definitely designed as a learning program, not a
    baby-sitting program.  There is a curriculum to follow (we can deviate
    to make it more interesting) with crafts, bible stories, songs, acting,
    etc.....
    
    The things Pete does may indeed be "normal boy behavior" (throwing
    things, yelling, grabbing toys and pretending they are guns, teasing,
    messing up other people's stuff) - but it is IMO not respectful, nor
    proper classroom behavior.  I feel that by 5 they should have learned a
    good amount of respect and self-discipline.  MOST of the rest of the
    students - boys and girls, 5 and/or 6 - have by now.
    
    We are all volunteers, and it is pulling teeth to get more parent
    volunteers.  We "advertise" in the church bulletin for more teachers,
    but everyone seems to steer away from our age group for some reason. 
    The other classes don't have problems, but those teachers say no way
    would they teach 5-yr-olds.  I'll be in that crowd after this year!
    
    My personal feeling is that some teachers could better handle a kid
    like Pete - none of us has previous experience, and none of us has the
    personality suited for such a child.  Since it was known that Pete was
    this way, the church should have found a suitable teacher (and at least
    told us ahead of time!).
    
    You may be right about Mr. Cox, and that tactic is certainly not what
    we use at home.  But then again, I don't have a problem getting my own
    kids to mind me at home!  We are all thankful that it works (usually)
    and that he is willing to give up his own ss classes and help.
    
    Any more input on how to handle such kids - here or by mail - is
    appreciated.  Although I'd like to walk out on them at times, I'm
    committed until May!
    
    Thanks again,
    Kristen

    Oh yeah - I forgot to mention that our Division Leader (ages infant
    through 5 years) daughter is one who will no longer come.  She got hit
    in the head by a helmet that Pete threw a few weeks ago!

    If your church has a vestry, or board of elders, or something like
    that, you might take the problem to them.  It doesn't seem right that
    one person can make such a far-reaching decision.
    
    I rather liked the idea of asking parents to help.  If Pete's parent(s)
    were in the room, even if they didn't acknowledge his behavior as
    disruptive, you might get some clues of how they handle him.
    
    as an aside:  20-30 kids?  2-3 teachers?  My goodness, we're lucky if
    we have that many people in church, never mind Sunday School!

    My knee is down to a slight twitch today.
    
    Although I'm not a churchgoer, so would certainly never find myself
    teaching SS (I'm of the "leave me alone with the manual" persuasion),
    it seems to me that if the stated goal is to _teach_, then the
    administration should make some effort to maintain an environment
    conducive to learning.  Forbidding you to stress the parents (by
    reporting unacceptable behavior) IMO is counterproductive hogwash.
    
    If you're not allowed to return the offending child to its parents in
    the congregation (I don't think you said whether that was an option),
    is there a time-out room?  Hall?  Closet  ]:->  ?
    
    I think there comes a threshhold where one can reasonably de-commit
    (bail out before May), and that threshhold would probably vary with the
    individual teacher.  Helmets flying through the air would probably
    meet or exceed my threshhold.
    
    Leslie

    Is there any way you can split the class into smaller groups?
    
    I think many 5 year olds have not had much experience with a school
    environment and haven't learned about socialization yet.  Maybe you
    could run two group with the extra teacher switching off as an
    assistant.  Then you can trade off being assistant so you don't have 
    the full responsibility every week.  
    
    With the smaller groups you can split up the troublemakers that usually
    group together.  The teachers can also trade off groups so you don't
    have the same children each week.  You can also get high school age
    assitants if that will help.
    
    Just a thought.  Good luck!
    
    Karin - Preschool SS teacher with 5 children and 4 alternating
    teachers + highschool assistants!

    You might like to try the tried and true method of giving the child
    "two choices".  We use this on our kids..."You can either go to your
    room by yourself OR I can take you there..."  Said with a smile (of sorts)
    and with as much love as you can muster (depends on the situation). 
    
    The child is forced to take one of the choices.  In the case of the
    Sunday School environment (yes - I too have done a tour of duty there),
    you could possibly phrase the choices this way, "Pete, you can either
    come over here and sit down and listen OR I can hold you in my lap." 
    Ask him which one he wants - give him five seconds to decide then if
    needed, get up and make the choice for him.  Of course you need to be 
    prepared 'for their test'.  Camly go over and gather the child up in
    your arms (all the while continuing to teach those still listening) and
    hold him firmly in your lap (take some freedom away - eg, hold both
    hands together, restrict leg movement).  You don't hold rock solid -
    'swing' with their fight to free themselves.  Don't let them go until
    they have given up to your authority.  This process is a real pain -
    and sometimes a long one.  But in the long run it pays nifty dividends.
    Eventually when you ask them this question they will slowly meanander
    over to their seat - given the choice. 
    
    Another piece of advice for teaching a group of kids their age...dont try 
    to teach for longer than 10 to 15 minutes at one time.  And keep the 
    lesson moving right along.  Then let'em get the wiggles out for 15
    minutes to 1/2 hour and try again...
    
    
    David
    

    I think TRIPP made some good points, especially about Mr. Cox.  One,
    that's taking the easy way out; and two, that tatic seems to say that
    it takes a man to enforce the rules.
    
    Perhaps there are too many kids, especially for 5 year olds.  For a
    youngster as Pete that you describe, he probably needs more attention
    (which I see nothing wrong with) perhaps smaller classes.  Maybe a
    request for another teacher so that your class can be broken down.
    
    I see no good reason to try and lay guilt trips on parents for not
    participating.  I do not go to church hardly at all myself.  My 2 kids
    take the bus to church almost every Sunday.  If either one of them
    misbehave, I hear about it.  My daughter is in the church choir, which
    I do not participate in.  If it were to become a requirement or if one
    of the "church people" were to tell me or insinuate that I am
    neglectful for not participating, then so be it.  No one demands that
    you teach Sunday school. It's purely voluntary.  As my children
    voluntarily get on the church bus.
    
    The "church people" involved with the kids are terrific by the way. 
    They truely love what they do, and encourage the kids in many ways.
    
    cindy 

>I see no good reason to try and lay guilt trips on parents for not
>participating.

I may have missed something, but I don't remember anyone stating or
implying that.  Did I miss something?

Kristen

Cindy ...

You said "if my kids misbehave ... I hear about it" ...

That's one of the major points in Kristen's note (.0) ... she CAN'T 
confront the parents (so not only are her hands tied, her mouth is gagged!).

Sorry, I still stand firm in saying that behavioral problems are the
responsibility of the PARENT, not the teacher ... and the other classmates
should not suffer because of an uncontrollable child (which Pete definately
fits MY DESCRIPTION of one).

My 2-year-old is NOT an angel.  She came home last night telling me how
"so-and-so cried at daycare yesterday ... because I shoved her".  I said
"and what did Sanko (head instructor) do?"  Juli said "sit me in a chair ..".
I then said "YEAH Sanko!" and clapped my hands.

Sorry, Juli ... but I have no empathy for you on this one!

Dottie

    RE: -.1
    
    Yes, I agree with your statement that, "...parents are responsible for 
    their childrens behavior..."   However, some kids are born with 'exciting' 
    spirits so to speak.  These kids (probably like Pete) will test all 
    authority and if you are to teach them you must first earn their respect.
    If Pete or any other kid is allowed to be taken to their parents then
    the kid has just beat you at a 'game'.  You and the kid lose.  Try the
    "two choices" game...it lets the kid feel like they have won 'the
    game'.  This is because, in their mind, they sat down because they
    wanted to sit down.  It doesn't matter that they were only given two
    choices - THEY MADE THE CHOICE AND THEY KNOW IT.   Try it - you'll like
    it.
    
    David (PS - If your lessons are boreing thats a different story :-)

My wife teaches a class of 4 and 5 year olds also, and in addition manages 
the children's Sunday School program for our church.  She hasn't had 
discipline problems with her class, but the 3rd-4th grade class and the 
5th-6th grade class have both been having horrendous problems which got 
escalated to Pat by the respective teachers.  One of the teachers is male, 
the other female.

Pat called in the Education Director, who mentioned it to an elder, who 
brought it up at a consistory meeting.  One of the other elders at the 
meeting happened to be the father of one of the troublemakers.  Suffice it 
to say that child won't be misbehaving in Sunday School anymore.  I don't 
know what his father said to him, but whatever it was, it changed his 
behaviour drastically.  Like your church, Kristen, ours is very reluctant 
to go to the parents over this, although this one parent took the news 
exactly the way you'd hope and solved the problem with his child swiftly
and sternly. 

They've talked about doing several things.  One is to bring the pastor in
to talk to the classes.  He is the ultimate authority figure in the church,
and even young children recognize him as such.  A few well-chosen words
from him might carry more weight than anything you could possibly do or 
say, just because of his position. 

They have also discussed sending letters to a few parents whose children do 
NOT misbehave, complimenting them on their children's model behaviour in 
Sunday School.  If this were done on a regular basis, then the parents who 
don't ever get a letter would begin wondering why and possibly look into 
the situation.  Conversely, a letter could go out to ALL parents, 
explaining that only a few students are causing problems, but that every 
parent is being asked to re-emphasize to their children the proper way to 
behave in a place of worship.

Pat's comment about your situation, Kristen, was that your class sounds
absolutely huge.  Her experience from two years of teaching that age group
is that up to 8 is very manageable, 8 students results in some degree of
controlled bedlam, and more than 10 is complete chaos.  Does your church
have room to split the class up into several, with one adult taking each
group of children?

I wish you luck.  I know it's not fun to have to deal with unruly children 
over whom you have no real authority.

Steve

We (all 3 teachers) met with the division leader and superintendent on Sunday
after Sunday School (Pete wasn't there, but 2 or 3 of the other trouble-makers
were there).  Earlier in the year our division leader offered to come in and
assist with the class, although she never made good on the offer.  We all
agreed that I should move to a different class, they would find me a replacement
for our class, and both the division leader and superintendent would be
regular helpers in the 5-yr class.

Apparently the real problem with Pete is that his parents don't want anyone to
know about his problem.  I don't understand that but I'll just accept it and
hope I never have first-hand experience so that I do understand it.  Also, it
was mentioned that last year there were several problems with the 4-year-olds
(who are now my 5-yr-olds) and they had to have lots of help (why were we not
told about this?), so it was anticipated that this particular bunch will just
have to have some extra help each year.

I was told to go talk to the 1st Grade class, because they needed help.  I got
in there to talk to them and guess what?  Pete's mom!!!!  She's a school teacher
too!  They seemed pretty excited to have some relief, and asked me to start
next Sunday.  Then I had a message on my answering machine from the division
leader saying 1st Grade didn't need the help, just go to 2nd Grade next week.
My theory is that they were afraid I would tell Pete's mom about him, so they
didn't want me in with the 1st-graders.  Who knows?  I could be way off base
here.

The other two teachers are going to stick it out the rest of the year, but they
both made it very clear that they aren't going to teach next year.  That's a
loss because both are good, and probably would have continued had we not been
subject to walking into this situation without any knowledge or training!

Oh well....

Thanks for all the suggestions - maybe I'll use it with the nth graders!

Kristen

Yeah, I may let Juli make many of her choices  (call it game-playing, if
you want) ... 

BUT ... not when it comes to bad behavior in church or bad behavior in
school.

Sorry, but that's where I'll draw the line (if I have to sit in her
classroom with her).

All kids need to learn some rules, control and respect ... and church
and school are definately two places you behave in.


Dottie

    My friend spent a day sitting her daughters classroom in public school
    for a day becasue the school system could not find the right solution
    to control the kids behaviour.  Whatever it takes, I am the parent to
    the child, I am willing to do what it takes to get the results needed
    -  not all in authority know what it will take to properly motivate the
    troublesome child.
    
    I teach 2 and 3 year olds on Sunday.  They are great and I have NO
    (knock knock) problems with my kids.  I do consider myself very lucky!
    
    -sandy