Conference moira::parenting_v3

I'll start, though my son is still young, so I have more to learn than
to add, I think.

Evan is 3, nearly 4.  He has always been interested in guns, and I think it
is because they represent "power" to him.  In the beginning, I would just
say, "We don't like guns" and he would repeat it.  As he got a little older,
he would often repeat it, but it was obvious that although I had taught him
the words, I had not taught him the sentiment.

A year ago, around Christmas, he asked for swords.  Although I do not like
the idea of any "weapon", swords do not bother me as much, and I feel that
archery might be appropriate for an older child to learn.  To me, swords and
arrows do not seem as "real" as guns, since they were mostly used so long
ago.

So I compromised.  I bought him a couple of nerf bats, and said that these
were his "swords".  The rules were (and are) that he cannot hit a person
or animal with them, but he could "fight" by hitting "sword" against "sword".
He has obeyed these rules well.

Although I am sometimes like a pacifist in my aversion to guns and killing,
I also play fantasy role playing games where our characters (in our imagination)
use swords.  Additionally, I have considered taking fencing lessons, just for
fun.  I wonder how this will affect my children's perception of violence and 
real life.  Will they be able to make the distinction, and at what age?
These are questions I don't necessarily expect answers to.

So, as I said in the base note, for those of you who don't believe in 
allowing your children to play with "war toys", how have your rules and 
beliefs worked for you and your family?

      Carol

Carol,

Maybe I am not addressed by you since, only in the beginning, did we have a
ban on "weapons" in the house.  I couldn't maintain it.  First of all, our
country has a very strong, defense only army.  On Sundays, you see men between 
the ages of 18 and 50 going off to practise shooting on their bicycles with
machine guns strapped to their backs.

Dirk never had an interest in any kind of weapon but Markus is fascinated by
them.  He acts out his fantasies with whatever is at hand.  When I forbade
the "real" thing, he would eat his toast into the shape of a pistol and point
it and make bang bang noises.

I finally gave up and put rules around what was appropriate.  Never point a gun,
even a toy one, at anybody.  Never hit anybody with anything, weapon or not.
Etc., etc.  I also found it very difficult at where to draw the line.  For
example, if he isn't allowed toy weapons, why are all his Lego sets equipped
with them?  He spends hours setting up jousts and battles and seafaring
explorations.  I'll go into his room and there will be Lego people "dead" all
over the place after a major battle.  The next day it is all set up and 
were ready for the next one.  (The interesting thing is that the good guys
always win :-)

Fortunately, Markus is quite a pacifist, believe it or not.  He seems interested
in the object, rather than what it can do.  Even though he is big and strong, 
he avoids fights.  He doesn't want to go into the army (though he'll have no
choice if he becomes Swiss, it's army or jail).

I find the violence they see on TV a much more detrimental influence to their
attitudes than letting them act out their fantasies with fake weapons.

Only my personal experience.  I wouldn't dare to try to advise anybody on this
because I know how personal it is for eveyone.

Cheryl

    Carol,
    
    Thanks for starting this topic.   I wanted to start a similar one
    before the holidays when I was contemplating buying Jason a toy gun
    for Christmas.     Oh well, that was 3 guns and 2 swords ago...so,
    as you can guess, I gave up on my "no guns and/or violence" rule.
    
    Like Cheryl's son(s), Jason was acutely aware and interested in guns
    (and he just turned 2 in September!).   I really don't have a good
    feel for how he became so interested in them, but that's another
    topic.    I gave in when everything imaginable became a gun to him...
    the t-square from his workshop, a comb, a french fry (the toast in
    -.1 is great!!), etc or he would build a gun from his Duplos.   In 
    addition, my husband likes to target shoot so it was either forbid him 
    or get into a "do as I say, not as I do" thing which I don't believe in.
    
    It may be just my imagination, but since we bought the gun(s), Jason
    seems to have lost interest in them to *some* degree AND his aggression
    towards other children (which always bothered me) has seemed to decrease
    as well.   So maybe, the toy weapons serve as an outlet for some of his
    natural agression, I don't know.
    
    *My* biggest problem with the toy gun and swords (he's into Peter Pan
    big time right now) is other people's reactions (or my perception of
    their reactions 8-)) to them.   
    
    FWIW, Jason's babysitter forbids toy guns of any kind (even squirt guns
    in the summer) in her home.   Jason seems to understand and respect
    this.
    
    Carol   
    
    

    Prior to having children I thought I would never allow weapons in the
    house. Until, that is, my then 2 yr. old son told me my curling iron
    was a gun and he was going to shoot me. :-)  So much for no weapons.
    
    What helped me a lot was an article I read (I may still have it at
    home) which talked about children's needs to channel aggression.
    Whether you give them true weapons or not, they will invariably begin
    to pretend that something is a weapon and role-play some type of
    aggressive behavior. The article pointed out the usefulness of this
    role-playing, and that stifling it can sometimes lead to repression of
    angry/aggressive feelings, to the detriment of the child.  What's
    important is to guide the role-play at times, such as you mentioned
    Carol, i.e., it's ok to hit pillows when you're mad or pretending to be
    mad, but we don't hit people.
    
    Allowing weapons is separate and distinct from allowing the behavior.
    You can certainly control both, but might not want to stifle the
    latter. It would probably be better to allow the "warring" behavior and
    guide it in a constructive setting.  We'll often encourage Ryan to help
    the good guys rather than just kill the bad guys all the time :-)
    
    I'll look for the article at home - it was not lengthy but really hit
    home for me.
    
    regards,
    

    My parents started out not allowing guns but gradually modified their
    policy as described in the earlier notes.  I never developed an
    interest, but my brother got his "cowboy" pistols eventually.  We were
    not allowed to have the elaborate stuff such as battle ships.
    
    As a new parent, this is the philosophy I have developed.  I will
    permit simple swords, "cowboy" guns, and water pistols, but fancy war
    toys are out.  They turn my stomach.  If a child wants to painstakingly
    assemble a model, that's ok with me, though.  That effort is different
    from receiving a battery-powered starwars toy.
    
    My husband collects guns, target shoots, and goes deer hunting.  All
    the guns are securely locked up in a safe, btw.  This is extremely
    important - real guns should be placed where children cannot get them. 
    He will teach our children gun safety, cleaning, and target shooting
    when they are old enough to handle it physically and be responsible.  
    We will clearly communicate that REAL guns are dangerous if not 
    handled with care.
    
    The casual TV violence bothers me.  I don't want my kids to grow
    accustomed to seeing it.  My husband loves cops-n-robbers shows, so we
    will have to work out some adjustments over time.  What bothers me is
    that TV shows rarely show the injury, blood, and death that results
    from violence; the hero always springs up ready for another fight.  I
    am equally repelled by the real gore and horror described in the news.
    
    By way of background, my father is a WWII veteran who was in the tank
    corps in Europe.  He suffered from post-traumatic-stress syndrome.  In
    those days they just called it nightmares and residual fear.  This is a
    large part of the reason for my parents' initial policy.
    
    I developed a strong aversion to guns.  I now believe that as a woman
    it is in my best interest to learn how to use a pistol.  I am gradually
    learning.  I do insist that even unloaded guns be locked up, and ammo
    be stored on shelves in the basement, not left on the kitchen counter.
    
    My brother is a very gentle guy.  He never expressed any interest in
    guns as an adult.
    
    With all these cultural cross-currents, I feel we will somehow navigate
    our way safely.  I think it is important to communicate spiritual and
    moral values throughout childhood.  These are the beacon that guides
    our way all our lives.
    
    Laura

    Our home has the policy of no war / violent  type toys.  David is no 9
    years old and to date it has not caused him to be ridiculed by friends
    that do.  He went through a short period of time (I think around 3 yrs
    old) where he wanted swords and guns.  I stood my ground and explained
    how we felt about these types of toys and wouldn't permit them in our
    home.  It passed rather quickly and he really doesn't ask for them at
    all.  This includes any of the GI Joe type stuff as well.  He does,
    however, "pretend" with things now and then.  I do not discourage this
    behaviour.  To me - That is pretending, If he's outside - the stick 
    he's pretending to use as a sword or gun is just that a stick.  It
    doesn't reenforce that guns are okay.  
    
    Kathy
    

    
    
    Count me in as one of those parents who gave in on war toys.  I still
    don't allow anything that resembles a gun in the house - but we have
    lots of HOOK, Robin Hood, GI Joe, TMNT, Ghostbusters, Batman, HEMAN
    paraphanalia that looks a lot like every other weapon (except guns).
    Its never bothered my 7 year old a bit.  He pretends anything is a gun.
    
    My husband and I both *dislike* guns.  We don't allow the real thing
    in our house either.  High tech toys are a tough call though - Dad
    works on the B-2 Stealth Bomber and until Digital - Mom worked on several 
    ICBM systems.  
    
    I'm still holding out on squirt guns too, they belong outside anyway!
    
    Rochelle
    
    p.s. Carol - look into the NERF fencing kits - they are more like
    fencing than sword fights - I play with kids all the time.  
    

    Its a very timely subject for us; about to become parents, I 
    had not until this time deeply considered the topic. Although I
    hold a very strong view that guns are not toys and should not be 
    treated lightly, we do have a number of swords (some ceremonial, some
    actually quite sharp) in the house. 
    
    I WILL want to stay away from giving my child war toys, especially
    toy guns. My husband reminds me though that he DOES own a hunting gun
    which is now at his father's place out in the country, and we will
    be in a situation (at Dad's) where there are guns around. 
    
    I have watched very closely how his family treats guns and am convinced
    that although they have them, they are not foolish nor clumsy with
    their treatment of the weapons. I will make sure that the children's
    father or grandfather explains the seriousness of handling these items,
    what they should be used for, and how they are NEVER to be touched
    without permission. I have great faith in them, since this is the
    way my husband was brought up, and he pretty well is disgusted by 
    things he hears about how some people do not lock these very dangerous
    weapons away. 
    
    So, while reluctantly I have been dragged into the issue of facing 
    the gun issue closer than I would have liked to (I have never known
    anyone who had them until I met my husband's family), I suppose it
    is a good thing so that when my children DO meet with other folks
    who own them, they will not be unprepared. 
    
    Again, I am not quite sure how we will handle the sword issue; probably
    in the same manner, or, we will just have to put them away until such
    time as the kids will not be tempted to haul them down off the wall
    to play with (!)
    
    I agree with previous noters who say that the kids will pretend if
    they do not have a toy that simulates the weapon, and I find that okay
    as long as it is monitored; it uses up energy (heck, *I* did that as 
    a kid at an age where girls usually only played with dolls!) and
    requires imagination.
    
    Monica
     

    Without reading all the earlier responses, I must say I felt the  same
    way when my boys were "young and innocent" - no guns or weapons.  Then
    like Cheryl's boy, the imagination took over on the kids.  My sons
    would use the straw and cover to the sport bottles as a sword.  Then
    the leggos were shaped into guns, the McNuggets always have a gun in
    every pack...and the list goes on.
    
    We, too, have purchased large pink or green water pistols (color is
    important to me - absolutely NO real looking guns!), white "sound
    screeching" laser guns that have 8 different sounds and vibrate in the
    hand for that real effect.  Do I sound like a commercial???
    
    We realized there is no stopping the imaginary play - but we do require
    that they be careful and we have always instructed them about how to
    handle them, and what to do if they find one - or if a friend wants
    them to play with a strange one (don't know if it's real or not).  My
    brother in law has a few musket revolvers in his collection as well as
    a b-b gun.  I have not problem with my sons learning thru proper
    instruction how to use them and using them in the proper context.  I
    feel that it's not what the item is, it's the attitude and intent
    behind it.  There is no end to the use of household items if you really
    want to impart great harm on someone - so a gun shouldn't be dingled
    out as the bad thing!  The attitude the child has is what needs to be
    maintained!
    
    JMHO!
    -sandy
    

    
    
    Never dingle out your gun!!!!
    
    sorry....
    
    

   No real practical help here, as my kids are too young to be
   interested in this stuff yet and we don't have any family members
   who own weapons ...  but I do have an observation...
   
   I recall a time in school when we were studying Macbeth - not only
   are some of the classics amazingly violent, but we actually
   performed a few scenes.  I remember actually choreographing a sword
   fight scene - the one where Macbeth gets stabbed.    Not sure how
   this applies, except to say that even in school this behaviour is
   sometimes encouraged (and even graded!).
   
   - Tom

    
   >>>I recall a time in school when we were studying Macbeth - not only
   >>>are some of the classics amazingly violent, but we actually
   >>>performed a few scenes.  I remember actually choreographing a sword
   >>>fight scene - the one where Macbeth gets stabbed.    Not sure how
   >>>this applies, except to say that even in school this behaviour is
   >>>sometimes encouraged (and even graded!).
    
    But, I'll bet they did not suggest a modern version where guns 
    are used, eh?
    
    Like Carol, while I don't consider swords as harmless ("Put that
    down, you can poke someone's eye out with that!"), guns definitely
    scare me. 
    
    Monica

re: .12

>    But, I'll bet they did not suggest a modern version where guns 
>    are used, eh?
    
   Quite true...
   
   - Tom

    I thought I was open-minded about guns and their proper handling and
    use, but I has a surprise recently.  I was at a friend's house recently
    and another guest (a marine recruiter) was there, too.  My sons (ages 4
    and 6) were in the living room with the other adults.  This marine
    pulls out his gun and starts flashing it around and taking out the ammo
    and putting it back in and generally making alot of noise with it.  My
    boys were across the room watching in awe!  When I walked in the room
    to see what was going on, my heart jumped in my chest and I have to
    admit I was terrified!  The factors that played in to this were 1) a
    hot shot marine (not even out of his 20's yet)-type, 2) a real gun that
    I didn't even know was in the house 3) bullets in the gun and a real
    sense of no-control.  Now this marine was not a stranger to the
    homeowners, but was to me.  There were all adults in this room except
    for my kids, but this mother bear was really scared by this.  I quickly
    invited the boys into the kitchen for cake!  Luckily, cake was more
    interesting to them at the time!
    
    Ya never know how you will react until you are faced with it.  Now I
    will never consider myself open-minded about anything!!!
    
    -sandy
    

    Sandy's gut reaction to guns in -1 is the same as mine, and 
    that's the reason we have a no-toy-guns policy in our house. It's
    mostly a gut decision, backed up with some rationalizing. 
    
    I have no objection to my son's creating his own weaponry as
    long as he follows our various rules, and he does have a plastic
    sword that he dearly loves (even takes it to bed).
    
    Cheryl in .2 made an excellent point: the violence on TV and in 
    movies is much worse than anything kids do in play.
    
    As the mother of an infant daughter I'm wondering whether girls
    these days get interested in guns? I had some as a child...I would
    expect some girls like them.
    
    Lucy

    Here is my observation with toy guns.  I played with toy guns as did
    my brother and all our friends too many years ago.  None of us have
    murdered anyone, yet!   I let my kids play with toy guns, GI Joe toys
    etc..  They are normal kids and use their imagination.  In my opinion
    if you teach your kids proper values, right from wrong, good vs bad,
    toy from real you won't have any problems with guns.  Teach them that
    TV shows are not real and the actors are only playing.  
     
    I let my kids watch desert storm and I told them it was real and 
    those bombs were real and  they were killing real poeple.  I was
    watching a WWII documentary during the 50 year anniversary with my son
    and I explained to him about that war.
    
    Toy guns will not make kids violent, dangereous, bigots, criminals
    etc., parents do.
    
    Also, tell your kids they can't have something, it only makes them want
    it more.
    
    Paul

    	I am also getting ready for this topic in our house. My initial
    response? NO toy guns that resemble real guns (pink and green water
    pistols, as stated earlier are okay) and NO toys, where the object is
    to kill or hurt the enemy.

    	I realize that children (particularly boys) can be very interested
    in guns but with all of the coverage lately on how children are killing
    other children with guns that they didn't know were loaded or with guns
    that they thought were toys, I am not going to take chances.

    	What I plan to do is somewhat Pavolvian. A child (usually) touches
    a hot stove once and then learns that the pain involved is not worth
    another touch. I plan on really trying to educate Spencer on why we do
    not think that guns are acceptable (even for play). When he is a little
    older there is a wonderful (and tragic) HBO special on children and
    guns, I'll try to rent that and watch and discuss it with him.
    Hopefully, the incentive to not be around guns will be greater than the
    (debatable) early yearning to be around them.

    	As Marc and I are somewhat on the pacifist side, (except for the
    arguments about whose turn it is to change the kitty litter ;-)) this
    also correlates with our value system and how we plan to raise our
    kid(s).

    	I don't want to frighten Spencer into paralysis, but I do want him
    to have a HEALTHY respect for guns and war toys and what they (can) do.
    Hopefully, he will be able to divert his energies into some other kind
    of creative play.


    			Wendy

Markus did the most fantastic Lego battle.  It involved everything he has (and
he has a LOT).  After the battle, he decided he needs to build a wall around
his "city" so the pirates can't get in.

Seriously, these little people have things that look like real weapons.  But
Markus knows they aren't.  When he was about 5 or 6 there were these horrible
Japanese programs he wanted to watch (Masters of the Universe stuff).  I watched
an episode with them and couldn't tell the good monsters from the bad monsters.
That was forbidden TOUTE SUITE.  It was only violence for violence sake.

I'm not sure I'd even let a young child watch Bambi.  Come on, losing his
mother!

The thing is that these toy guns and toy swords are only toys which children
use their own imagination to enhance and role play.  What they see on television
can seem VERY real.  A fake gun which shoots fake bullets still looks very
real.  This isn't their own imagination, this is somebody else's designed to
make the unreal come to life in your living room.

We had a terrible period when Markus saw by accident one of the Nightmare on 
Elm Street movies.  I couldn't get him to sleep for months.  Or when Dirk was
being put to bed when the detective story was starting and he saw someone 
"crash" into a tree and "bleed" all over the steering wheel.  He had nightmares
for awhile too.

The thing is that all the imagination in the world cannot turn even the most
realistic toy gun into a real one but television can, at least in the minds of 
our children.  

JMHO

Cheryl

    I *swore* I was going to stay out of this discussion, simply because my
    views are just neutral BUT... yesterday I was watching a news show on
    NBC and they did a segment on kid's toys with violence.  The one that
    caught my interest was a toy made by TYCO, which is a break-apart toy
    plastic car, which contains the National Safety Council (green cross
    logo) Dummies.  Aparantly the car is supposed to be pushed into a
    non-movable object (simulating a tree or phone pole) and it breaks
    apart, the wheels fall off, the windshieild goes flying, and the
    dummies are ejected, and  become decapitated, and loose limbs.
    
    I *would buy* this for AJ (5) just because it is a very real reminder
    of what can happen when you don't wear your seatbelt.  For a younger
    child it might be very scarey.
    
    FWIW, his school has allowed the kids to roll up paper (the size used
    in conference room flip charts), but the kids have been told to call
    them "walking sticks", they are not allowed to refer or use them as
    guns or swords.
    
    He actually only owns one toy gun. It is a red plastic, pistol shape. 
    When you pull the trigger it makes a "sparkle", which is obtained by
    friction.  He is interested in the "sparkling", more so than the actual
    gun.
    
    Lyn
    
    (by the way if anyone finds the break apart toy before I do, I'd be
    glad to meet you somewhere for it!)
     

    One or two people expressed fear of real guns and their kids.  This is
    what I believe should be taught to children about real guns.  
    
    Q.  What do you do if you find a gun, like in a vacant lot?
    A.  Do not touch it.  Go immediately to a responsible adult and tell
    them.
    
    Q.  What do you do if you are visiting a friend's house and there is a
    real gun where children can touch it?
    A.  Leave immediately.  Tell your parents.
    
    Q.  What do you do if a playmate is playing with a real gun?
    A.  Leave immediately.  Tell a responsible adult.
    
    As I previously stated, any responsible gun owner will keep the weapon
    securely locked up where children cannot get it.  Most accidents
    involve unsecured weapons.
    
    Laura

    I agree with Paul back in reply .16
    I grew up with guns at home , and I presently have a gun at home locked up!
    This is one of those topics, that could be argued till the end, gun
    control. Weapons in general is the topics here, how about those kitchen
    knives? Candle stick holders?, axes?, baseball bats?, ect... I think
    the real danger is the TV itself! Violence is everywhere! I would
    rather have my child, be familiar and in control of a weapon than on
    the receiving end of it. You are responsible for teaching your children
    right and wrong. More kids die by auto accidents than by gunshot and 
    stabbings, would you ban cars too? No! You teach them RESPECT of a
    motor vehicle, Drinking and driving, speeding, driving in bad weather,
    ect. 
    
                                                 Jeff
     

    I did not allow my sons to have guns and I have a fear of them because of 
    several incidents during my marriage.
    
    But if I had it to do over I would allow the boys to have the guns and
    use the toy as a teaching tool in how to handle and the safety aspect
    of guns.
    
    There are some professions that require guns, target shooting is an
    exercise in dexterity and hunting is a means of food gathering.
    
    I don't think we are being honest with our children if we tell them
    that guns are bad.  We may say that we as individuals will never use a
    gun, but I think it is important for us to express our opinions and
    philosophies in a way that they can accept another viewpoint.
    
    In retrospect I would allow my sons to have the gun...but I would be
    very strong in supervising the play and handling of the toy.

    I'm a little late in this discussion but nevertheless....
    
    I have three boys all of whom have expressed interest in guns.  I found
    that my feelings on the subject have evolved over the years.  
    
    First it was NO guns or "violent" toys!
    
    Then it was unrealistic water pistols are ok. (although I do still try
    to find other types of water squirting toys).
    
    Then I allowed Ninja turtles, Robin Hood, etc. in but discourage GI
    Joe.
    
    THEN my 8 year old asked one of the GIRLS invited to his birthday party
    to get him a gun!  And she did!  I didn't flip out - allowed he and his
    brothers to play with it for a few days - then it "disappeared".  No
    one ever asked where it went.  (Obviously this was a toy gun).
    
    What I notice is that when kids are playing with toys (like Ninja
    turtles, Legos, etc.) while they do use "violent" play (one turtle
    hitting the other, guns made out of Legos) they direct it at the TOYS
    and not each other.  The minute a gun or sword comes into the picture
    the violence is directed at each other.  So, I don't allow any toy guns
    in my house or yard but do this subtley (sp?) by redirecting their play
    away from the toy weapon.
    
    My newest dilemma has been my oldest son and Cub Scouts.  At Summer
    Scout camp they have target shooting.  At first I was CONVINCED that I
    wouldn't allow him to do this.  Now, after talking to some other Scout
    parents, Den leaders, etc. and seeing a Camp slide show, I'm leaning
    towards letting him participate.  They stress gun safety and take many
    precautions.
    
    We talk about guns whenever the kids want to (not very often).  We
    watch shows on TV and talk about what they should/would do in certain
    situations.  They understand how I feel about guns and seem to respect
    that.  My husband has a BB gun up at his parents summer place and has
    said if the kids REALLY want to learn how to use it he'll teach them
    (when they get older).  
    
    The one area I will have trouble with is if they want to get into
    hunting.  While my status on this subject has mellowed since I moved to
    NH (from Long Island, NY) almost 20 years ago, I still don't want to be
    PERSONALLY involved with it.  I have many good friends who are hunters
    and I respect their right to pursue it but the idea of having a little
    Thumper or Bambi in my house is not something I care to deal with. 
    (Unless Thumper or Bambi is alive and well and my pet!)  So, we have
    tons of pets and we watch every nature show known to man and the kids
    are getting the same feeling about animals that I have.  Hopefully that
    will stop them from wanting to pursue this sport.
    
    Just my .02!
    
    Linda

<    I'm a little late in this discussion but nevertheless....
    
Not at all.  I am reading each reply with great interest.  Thank you all
for entering your experiences!  I look forward to reading more!

    Carol

    
        What are REAL handcuffs doing in toy stores?  
    
        I was shocked to find that in the toy dept of a national chain,
    there are "toy" handcuffs made of heavy guage STEEL that lock with a
    key!  There is a "safety release" but it is tiny, made of thin metal
    and the one I looked at was very hard to move and hurt my finger.
        There's more:  a second lever, also thin which lies flat against 
    the unit.   What could this be used for, you ask?
    
        The second lever disables the safety latch!!!  It is also hard to
    move and difficult to reach.  This "toy" is made of heavy steel and 
    cannot be pulled apart even by an adult.  I wonder how a kid might 
    feel if he discovers that he can't get them off and some other kid
    decides to give him a hard time?
    
        This is not a toy and it is dangerous! 
     
    
    

    RE: -1
    
    Yes, those handcuffs are appalling in a toy store.  Talk about an
    invitation for bullying.
    
    btw, I've heard that sometimes police use the plastic ties used to hold
    bundles of electrical wires together.  The narrow end pulls through a
    little catch on the other end.  You have to cut them off with scissors. 
    Don't tell your kids -;)
    
    Laura-the-electrican's-wife

    Yup, heavy duty tie wraps are often used in place of handcuffs. They
    have the advantage that they are light and compact, (a police officer
    can carry 50-100 in a hip pocket. THe disadvantage is that they are a
    lot easier to remove than real handcuffs.
    
    But all this is moot when you are talking about kids playing rather
    than Cops apprehending criminals.
    
    q
    

    I've no time to read all the responses now, but this is what we used to
    do--my two brothers and sister and I (very close in age) played four
    against -- whoever, including Japanese, Indians, Germans, martians, the
    world; whatever was in our environment for a potentially bad group.  We
    set up extensive fortifications, developed complete lifestyles for each
    situation, and always, without question or without regard to the number
    of casualties our side received, won.  Our weapons were usually sticks
    made into guns, machetes or missile thrusters, and our death scenes
    were elaborate.  
    
    We were not raised to be warriers, and there was no stress on "no
    weapons" or "get those [whatever] monsters".  I feel it gave us a good
    opportunity to define good and evil, expell agression against the known
    forces we had no control over (like nuclear war), and learn to play
    well together.  It also got rid of lots of energy!  I am at this point
    very pacifist, terrified of weapons, anti-war, anti-fighting and
    anti-conflict.  I just don't know how I will help nathan along--he will
    not have the environments we had to do this play (which was very large
    and very safe).  It just did not seem to do us any harm.  All of us are
    pacifists.
    
    Adrienne