Conference moira::parenting_v3

    This is atough one.  We also have a 4th grader who is going through
    tough times this year - tough enough that the school psychologist has
    been called in.  His problem is more personal and less disruptive
    however.
    
    Have you considered talking with the teacher and coming up with a
    joint set of steps you can take.  For example, try to come up with a
    discipline that can be used in school.  Taking away skiing is only
    going to make your child frustrated, not solve a behavior problem.
    
    Perhaps some one-on-one conversations between your son and the teacher
    would also be helpful.. She is much better trained to deal with these
    problems than we are!
    
    Good luck - I can really sympathize with you.
    

    I also suggest talking to the teacher. Since his grades are
    so good, might he just be bored? Just a suggestion...
    
    Sue
      

Yes, by all means talk to the teacher.  Boredom may very well be the cause, 
considering his grades and the fact that he is relatively old for the fourth 
grade.

And this may sound strange in light of his grades, but consider having him 
checked for a learning disability, namely Attention Deficit disorder.  The 
blurting out the answers is a classic symptom.  You might observe him doing 
homework, if he has any.  Does he fidget and get up a lot?

ADD, at least mild cases, often don't show up until later elementary school, 
because in the first few grades, the tasks tend to be short, and there is a 
lot of moving around.  Our daughter didn't get diagnosed until she was in 
fourth grade.  And it often doesn't show up outside the schoolroom, because 
there isn't the need to sit quite so still.

And in light of his grades, don't expect any support from the teacher or any 
school official in getting him tested, and don't expect the teacher to be 
knowldegable about ADD.

Clay

    I've had a similar problem with my 9 year old every year in school.
    He's very bright - all A student (thank god) but he blurts out answers
    quite often.  The major thing we do is keep an ongoing open dialogue
    with his teacher (each year).  Usually she/he and myself agree that it
    is because he has an great deal of knowledge/information and he is
    excited to share it with the class.  (I realize this does not make the
    behaviour ok)  There are a few things we and the teacher do to 
    "reinforce" that this behaviour must be changed.  Since David usually
    finishes his work before the others, she allows him to use the computer
    in the classroom for the rest of his free time.  This priviledge is
    taken away on the days that he is "talkative".  (This is really tough
    for him).  He is then give "quiet" reading assignments or extra
    penmanship assignments instead.  If I get a note home that day - he
    gets no computer at home that night, sometimes no TV as well.  If it's
    been a bad week and it's happened more than one day - we might have him
    go to bed early as well.  We've used this type of approach for 4 years
    now, and have found it to be a big help.  Usually by the second quarter
    of the school year it's down to a minimum.  Maybe once a week.
    
    Another thing you might want to talk with his teacher about is more
    challenging work.  It could be that he's talking/fooling around cause
    he's bored.  I know every year we have to meet with David's new teacher
    and have this discussion.  The work they are covering - he can finish
    in minutes and then what?  So we work with the teachers and they are
    usually very open to suggestions and will help give David other work or
    additional things that will challenge him and really make him think /
    work harder.
    
    Remember - he's not beating kids up or starting fires at school.  
    He's talking out in class.  I realize this has to be dealt with but
    he sounds like an overall good kid.  If talking in class is the worst
    he's doing - you're lucky!  At least I feel I am.  
    
    If you'd like to talk more offline - call me at DTN: 264-5082.
    
    Kathy
      

    I'd like to add my $.02 from the perspective of a kid who was similarly
    disciplined for "acting up" in class, for what I suspect are the same
    reasons.  The point I'm trying to get at is this:  Please make sure you
    are rewarding the skills you want to develop.
    
    I was bored, bored, bored!!  The teacher NEVER called on me, preferring
    to ask kids who might not know the answer.  My parents' attitude was 
    that I should just fold my hands and sit there quietly, so as not to
    disrupt the attention from the kids who weren't doing so well.  
    
    What I wish had happened was for my parents and teacher to get together
    and get me SOMETHING CREATIVE to do -- outside research; extra
    projects; bring an extra book; tutor the other kids; excuse me to take
    music lessons; ANYTHING.  What I got was a teacher who became deeply
    and personally offended if I could do the work faster than she dished
    it out -- and punished me for doing ANYTHING extra.
    
    I did as my parents desired -- behaved myself and caused no trouble. 
    What I learned from this was some very creative ways to waste ENORMOUS
    amounts of time, just to keep from going stark, raving mad.  Play
    connect-the-dots with the holes in the accoustic tile ceiling.  Count
    the number of times the various letters of the alphabet occur in the
    reading assignment I finished 45 minutes ago.  Learn the capitals of
    all the states in the union by heart, in alphabetical order, and
    reverse alphabetical order.  
    
    With some direction, I could have GIVEN MYSELF a much broader and deeper
    education.  I have a lot of creativity, and I could have developed it
    toward any number of worthwhile ends.  Instead, I have a deeply
    ingrained habit of dissipating my energy to tolerate the status-quo,
    which I have to fight tooth and nail to overcome.
    
    Just food for thought...
    Beth

    Ah, like the last reply, I was *always* being punished in grade school
    (the principal's name was Peggy, by the time I left we were on a first
    name basis) for acting out. In retrospect, I, too, was BORED out of my
    skull. My grades were high, my testing was high, back then, they did
    not know what to do with a "problem child" who was getting straight
    A's. As a result, I became the class clown (it was one way to release
    the creative tension), I also became angry at my parents and teachers
    for not "understanding" me. (they always found it easier to send me out
    of the room then to devise something challenging for me) even as a
    tyke, I knew that they didn't have a clue about me.

    	The first teacher who actually *demanded* more of me, was my
    seventh grade English teacher, as a result I excelled in English
    (perhaps that's why I teach it now on a college level?)

    	Please, instead of punishing your son, by all means investigate the
    ADD issue but also suggest outside programs. I was finally put in a
    Saturday Science program in the seventh grade and just loved it. When I
    was older and could get myself places on my bike, I started taking
    classes at the local nature center. I participated in sports during high
    school, I held a job. I went to seminars. Essentially, I found ways to
    dissipate my energy and yearn for knowledge (I also read LOTS of
    books).

    	You probably don't want to wait for your son to get that old before
    you step in. Instead of taking something away perhaps the answer might
    be to add more.

    		Wendy who wants to remember this when her son gets older

    Is there any way that you can get him into a more challenging
    environment?  Maybe the school could start a small program for these
    kids.  Something where they could do extra projects during free time.
    Maybe a science club.    
         Another idea...I interpret (maybe incorrectly) the fact that your
    son blurts out answers to questions to be that he is proud of the
    fact that he knows the answers and wants his friends and peers to 
    recognise this.  If the teacher encouraged and acknowleged this by
    making your son available to help the other kids with problems that
    they have with assignments, he may recieve the kind of gratification
    he needs and deserves.  Teacher's helper?
    
    
    					Mary 

Just a thought - all of the previous replies have concentrated on the
school side of your son's day.  Is it at all possible that he's looking for
attention because of something askew outside of school, or unrelated to
academics?

I only pose this because such was the case with my son, as far as I can
tell.  He too has always gotten good to excellent grades, always tested
very high, but always has had less-than-perfect classroom manners.

I agree that our public school system often does all it can to squelch
creativity and to put eager children into a catatonic state as quickly as
possible (of course there are the exceptional teachers who really do care
and go the extra mile, but my son hasn't been lucky enough to get them).
If that's the problem, then some creative extras mentioned in previous
replies should help.

Sometimes, however, a child will act out at school to deal with an
unrelated issue.  When Sean felt he wasn't getting enough attention at
home, or if he was having trouble coping with something, he'd talk out of
turn, act particularly boisterous (sometimes a bit aggressive).  As soon as
we were able to identify and correct whatever the issue was, his behavior
would as-if-by-magic return to his usual.

Just another point of view....

     My son who is 6 yrs old and in kindergarten, is beginning to show
    disruptive behavior in class. I suppose I really shouldn't say
    "beginning"as we have gone through this off and on since the beginning 
    of the school year and his teacher says that this behavior is 
    negatively impacting his work.(Which I'm not sure I totally agree with.  
    He is beginning to read, and just this week wrote a complete sentence). 
    even though his spelling was on the inventive side.   ( I WT TWO PLAY).
    
      The behavior we're talking about is talking out in class, not sitting
    still and completing assigned work, and poking/tapping other kids
    during story time (circle time).  He is not tappin to hurt them but 
    rather just disrupt them.  (I think that a good portion of the time 
    he doesn't even realize he is doing it).
    
      The teacher was trying behavior modification with positive
    reinforcement.for a while, which seemed to have been working.  ie,
    rewarding him with either stickers or allowing him to help her 
    each time he got through the difficult area of the morning.  if he 
    got through the whole day he could pick out a book from the class 
    library and bring it home for a day or two.
    But I'm not sure she is still doing it... But from the way the teacher
    and director are talking, his behavior is worse than usual.
    
      I think part of the problem is that we were on vacation for a week
    and then there was school vacation for a week, in which the school was
    closed and there was only DAYCARE there for the week.  This is the
    first week back at class and I'm sure it will take him this week 
    anyway to get back into a routine.
    
      I have some ideas as to what the reason for the behavior is but I am
    not sure how to narrow it down to the problem nor how to fix it.
    
      Some of my thoughts are:
    
    
       BOREDOM,  He has been at the school for 3yrs pre-school, pre-K and
    K. And some of the stuff being done in K is the same stuff he did in pre
    and pre-k.  ie:  1)letter recognition. has be able to recognize all his
    letters spell and write his full name (Jonathan William Isbell) for 
    almost 2 yrs now. 2) picture matching.  counting and matching numbers etc.
    
       Don't get me wrong there are things done in K that were not done at
    the earlier classes like recognizing patterns, learning and counting coins.
    some small science projects etc. but alot of what he it has to be
    repeated for children who have not been in this type of environment 
    previously.
    
       HYPERACTIVE/LD  How would I go about determining this. Sure, He's
    ACTIVE. And I really believe that his brain is going a mile a minute. 
    Sometimeswhen he is down for the night it will take him 1-2 hrs to 
    fall asleep, and if you stand outside his room you hear him talking
    to himself. about what he will say for his school project.  "What 
    I like about January" and then he goes on to what he likes about winter,
    MS. Julie, his clas and his school.
    
       I'm really don't think that he has add, because he can concentrate
    on things writing/coloring/drawing using play dough, even just looking 
    at books.  and then the obvious  T.V. and video games. I do have 
    problems to him hearing/listening to me when I am interrupting TV, or
    his attention is elsewhere.
    
      A PROBLEM NOT RELATED TO SCHOOL  I know that at home he hasn't gotten
    as much attention as usual but he hasn't seemed to want it.  He would
    retreat to the family room or his room and play... This I know how 
    to handle.
    
      I guess my biggest concern is that if he is hyperactive or has any
    other type of problem, I would like to know as early as possible. And
    start working to correct/control the problem, before he enters the first
    grade. I'm really sick of listening to the teacher complain to me 
    about his disruptive behavior and her not knowing what to do with him, 
    without having any creative ideas or suggestions on where I can start.
    
    Am I missing something here... I'm just not sure where to start.
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.
    
    regards
    
    Carol 
    
    

        Carol,
    
        What does he have for breakfast?  Cereal loaded with SUGAR??
    
        Does he bring juices to school?  Loaded with SUGAR?
    
        Does he bring snacks for snacktime?  Loaded with SUGAR?
    
    This COULD be the problem.  I don't know what you give him, but I have
    seen kids that were VERY affected by sugar.  So many things for kids
    are loaded with sugar and it gets hard sometimes to find things that
    kids will like that does not have sugar.  You may want to curb his
    sugar input, at least until he comes home from school, and see if
    there's an improvement.
    
    Chris D.

    It could be sugar, but I doubt it.
    
    I can relate to .9 'cause by daughter was or is somewhat like this. 
    She is almost 10 now, in 4th grade.  She's very intelligent and
    sensitive.
    
    But, socially she doesn't get along very well with her peers.  She use
    to yell out answers in class, even if she knew they were wrong.  She
    desired the attention.
    
    It has taken me time and also the acceptance to acknowledge that my
    daughter NEEDS me, a lot more than I thought.  I had assumed that she
    was doing just great, and therefore, she didn't require my praising and
    hugging and 1on1.  How wrong I ever was.
    
    I had given more attention to her younger brother, (he showed
    agression) and so I just knew he needed my attention.
    
    Anyway, I'm learning.  My daughter has the most excellent teacher this
    year.  Regardless, if I'm the one to blame, her teacher spends extra
    time after class, 2x a week, to tutor my daughter. (as well as a few
    other students).  My daughter, (in the last report card) pulled every
    single grade up 1 letter.  Her check marks in behaviour had disappeared
    inn some areas.
    
    I attribute the progress to the joing efforts of the elementary school
    staff and to my new approaches in discipline and affection. (all of
    which I had to learn and accept).  (maybe that sounds sad, that I had
    to "learn" how to parent better, but I feel so much of a better mother
    for the lessons)
    
    cindy

    
    re .11
    	Hear! Hear!  You should absolutely NOT feel sad that you're
    learning to be a better parent. I have a hard time understanding
    why some parents think they have to FIX the child. We're (parents)
    the people that need the fixin' and the education.
    Sure, there may be medical (sugar...ADD...etc) reasons for some
    behavior that we don't like, but let's start at the source first.
    
    (my personal opinion, of course)
    
    Mike 

    Thanks Mike.  I'm not sad about it, but initially, I felt a little
    guilty.  'cause I wasn't this excellent parent naturally, like I
    thought it was suppose to happen.  
    
    Now, I look forward to learning even more. It's making such a major
    difference in my life and my children's.  Their father is more
    resistent to learning new behaviours, but I hope he'll come around and
    understand that the way he was raised, does not have to be repeated in
    his raising of our kids.
    
    cindy

re: .9

>   I'm really don't think that he has add, because he can concentrate 
>   on things writing/coloring/drawing using play dough, even just looking 
>   at books.  and then the obvious  T.V. and video games. I do have 
>   problems to him hearing/listening to me when I am interrupting TV, or 
>   his attention is elsewhere.

I am NOT trying to diagnose your son, but I would like to clear up a
misconception.  The situation you describe is NOT necessarily an indication
that your son does not have ADD.  In the waiting room at the Mass General
Hospital Learning Disorders Unit, there is a video game.  I have personally
witnessed kids with SEVERE attention deficit problems needing to be
physically carried away from it.  ADD is more related to the inability to
internally control your attention.  The fact that some external things can
"grab" your attention doesn't mean anything.  ADD symptoms are more severe
when the child is doing things that do NOT interest him or her, or if there
are a LOT of more or less equally stimulating things happening.

If you are in Massachusetts, you have the right to have your son tested for
learning disabilities.  If you want to get an independent evaluation, there
are some sources listed in other notes in here, or in
ASABET::LEARNING_DISABILITES.

In addition, your son's teacher should be able to do more for you than just
complain about your son's behavior.  SHE (or at least the director) ought to
know of sources of testing and evaluation of learning and behavioral
disorders.

I think that a professional evaluation is in order.

Clay