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Conference moira::parenting_v3

Title:Parenting
Notice:READ 1.27 BEFORE WRITING
Moderator:CSC32::DUBOIS
Created:Wed May 30 1990
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1364
Total number of notes:23848

1267.0. "How do you help a parent, when they don't think they need help?? " by GOZOLI::BERTINO () Mon Dec 30 1991 16:48

	I hope you folks can offer me some advice on this one.
	
	My husbands cousin, a college junior at the time, last spring 
	announced that she was pregnant. She said she had just found out and
	she was already 7+ months along.  (I have my doubts about this one
	but that is a topic for Oprah!)  The baby was born 1 month premature
	by emergency C-section because he was breech. He wieghed about 5
	pounds but didn't spend any more than 2 weeks in the hospital as did
	the mother.

	He is now about 5.5 months old now, and doesn't seem any farther 
	down the developmental path than any newborn I know.  I have the 
	book "What to expect In the First Year" and I had to go all the way 
	back to the first month to find any developmental milestone that I 
	thought he might be doing.  This was "focus on a face" and I'm not 
	even really sure that he is doing this.

	He weighs about 8 or 9 pounds at this point.  He is on a combo of 
	Pro-Sobee, rice, and prunce juice, for formula. He used to spit 
	everything up.  He sometimes still does that but now it seems that 
	maybe his throat is just not moving the liquid down, and it just 
	dribbles out of his mouth.

	When he comes over whether he is being held or in his rocker seat,
	he just blankly stares.  He also doesn't seem to move very much.
	At Thanksgiving I noticed that he keeps both his hands all curled
	up towards his body.  This Christmas my father in law was holding him
	and he had to hold his head up for him, he has no muscle control at
	all it seems.

	He also never seems to cry.  He only seems to cry if he gets really
	ticked off or he is really hungry. He screamed so hard on Christmas
	when she put his winter coat on him that he was shaking.

	Until recently they had never taken him to any other doctor but the
	pediatrician.  To me it seems that this pedi is far from aggressive
	in treating this child who, just by looking at him, seems to have
	*something* very wrong. All his problems could be due to a lack of 
	putting on weight I suppose, right?  He has no extra fat or calories
	so he has no energy to move or develop physically, and he has no
	extra fat to develop his brain and the vicous cycle continues.
	
	A one point the pedi thought he might be deaf.  He was taken to a 
	neurologist and he said that he wasn't deaf, and that the good news
	was that he didn't have Downs Syndrome.  He never said what the bad
	news was or at least we were never told if he did.  Now the word we 
	hear is that the pedi and the neuro say that he is fine.  But by the
	same token he has another appointment with the neuro mid January. The
	pedi said the only thing that is wrong is that he was premature.  
	
	I know we must not be hearing the whole story from the family.  We
	(in my husbands family) are very close and are very concerned.  We have
	three premies out of twelve grandchildren so it is not a foreign
	condition to us. One of the relatives tried to talk to the mother but 
	she seems to be in a heavy state of denial "Ignore it and it will go 
	away", "everything is fine".  The mother is what I term an "educated 
	dummy" which means high I.Q., low common sense.

	The reason that this is so troubling to me is that it is very hard
	when he comes over because my daughter who is 10 months (22 lbs.,
	walking, and hates all baby food) and my sister in laws twins
	4 months (also 1 month early, 15 lbs each, laughing, sitting up
	in walkers, and scooting every now and then) are so far ahead of him
	it makes me feels very bad, and even guilty having a healthy baby.
	Megan and the twins are by no means **SUPER** babies, they are normal
	and average, but next to this poor little thing they look like they
	are **SUPER** babies.

	I guess my question is what can we do?  He is rapidly loosing time
	and the longer it takes to do something the worse he is going to 
	get.  I'm starting to feel like an anonymus call should be placed 
	to DSS. But what does that really mean?  Could we call the pedi, who 
	of course won't discuss the child with us, but maybe it would help 
	him to hear our observations?  Do 
we try to scare some sense into 
	this girl and risk that part of the family falling away?

	Sorry this is so long. I have been wanting to put this in here for
	quite awhile and ask your advice. I was just hoping that something
	would have changed by now.


	Wendy- 


	

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1267.1KAOFS::S_BROOKMon Dec 30 1991 17:1423
    First things first ...
    
    Babies all develop at remarkably different rates ... so this is not
    necessarily all that bad.  The idea that she was already 7+ months
    along when she discovered she was pregnant may be a clue here too,
    that maybe the baby was even more premature by maybe a month because
    that figure might be inaccurate ?
    
    The only thing that is of real concern is the lack of response to
    stimulii and maybe the feeding.
    
    There may be some trouble that the mother just does not want to talk
    about and hence the appearance of denial.  She may well not be
    denying it to herself, just to others.
    
    As to what you can do ?  Not a lot ... the child is being seen by a
    pedi and neurologist.  The only real thing you can do is be there
    if the mother wants help later.  If it turns out the baby does have
    serious problems, she'll want friendship and help.
    
    Meanwhile wait patiently.
    
    Stuart
1267.2My 2 cents!DEMON::MARRAMAMon Dec 30 1991 17:3716
    
    Two of my friends babies were both premature one 4 weeks premature the
    other 5 weeks.  The first one is now 19 months old and she was speeding
    right along with all the milestones of a full term baby.  The other
    is ahead of her time, her daughter is 1 day old than mine almost 9
    months and she is walking and mine is not even standing yet.  So if I 
    were the parents I would definitely worry.  I would take him to see
    a specialist (Children's Hospital is wonderful!) My sister is a prime
    example, she is a patient there and she is 36 years old!  
    I think the noter before is right, the fact that she found out she was
    pregnant at 7 months along might have something to do with it!
    Try and talk to them, maybe they will listen to you.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    
1267.3opinions onlyKAOFS::M_FETTalias Mrs.BarneyMon Dec 30 1991 19:1727
    Is there someone in the family that the mother DOES listen to and 
    share her thoughts with? Perhaps you could communicate your concern
    to this person for them to pass it on to the mother. 
    
    Does the mother have a copy of "What to Expect..."? Perhaps a gift
    would be in order. Has any discussion been made with her about what
    YOU see as the obvious differences in development between her child
    and the others of similar age in the family? 
    
    Sometimes people who are not as open as those of us who try and 
    communication with them, are very frustrating to deal with. 
    
    If what you are looking for is a way to share your concern, (not
    knowing how verbal you have been with this person) you might try a very 
    carefully phrased letter to her. If dialog between you is not working
    (and/or she ignores the contents of the suggested letter) you can do no
    more. The matter is in her hands. 
    
    recommending other doctors to her? Going with her to the doctor? All
    these suggestions are out of ignorance; not knowing how close "close"
    is between you and other family members. You'll have to use instincts
    (and Kindness! As the previous reply said, if there IS a problem with
    the baby, being open and giving support will help).
    
    Monica
    
    
1267.4good luck with this tough problemCNTROL::STOLICNYTue Dec 31 1991 08:4423
    
    Wendy - 
    
    I agree that this child sounds somewhat behind developmentally
    and also that his weight is quite low for his age - maybe
    what you'd call a "failure to thrive".   However, please keep
    in mind that all children develop at different rates.  A 10-month
    old walker is pretty *super* in my opinion, so try not to compare
    too much.
    
    It is quite possible that if your cousin didn't realize her pregnancy
    until so late that her pre-natal care was severely lacking and that
    the baby may be suffering as a consequence of that. 
    
    Personally, I would absolutely not call DSS until *all* other 
    avenues have been pursued.   I like the idea of calling the
    pediatrician to voice your concerns....or perhaps talking with
    your child's pedi to see if he/she has anything to offer.   I
    saw a Hallmark series movie in December (can't remember the name)
    where a woman "borrowed" a child from her mother and took her for 
    a complete evaluation because the child's mother refused to help
    the child develop to her fullest potential....maybe that's an idea
    (albeit sneaky, I think it's better than calling DSS!).
1267.5NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Tue Dec 31 1991 10:512
Unless a child's being abused *and* you've exhausted all other options,
keep DSS out of it.  From what I've seen and heard, DSS is to be avoided.
1267.6I don't know what it will take...GOZOLI::BERTINOTue Dec 31 1991 13:0141
	Thanks, for all your ideas so far.  

	Funny, Carol, that you should mention "borrowing" the child and
	taking it to my own pedi.  My sister-in-law, ( the mother of the
	premie twins) and I have the same pedi, and have joked about
	doing this.  I hadn't taken it as anything more than that yet.
	How would you break it to them afterwards.  "We bumped into my
	pedi in the produce aisle of the supermarket."?

	My pedi would not let this one go by.  Megan lost 13 oz. in 5 days
	(from when she left the hospital to her 1 week appointment) and
	he very calmly, but seriously attacked the problem and in 3 days
	she had put 1.5 lbs back on.  He is not an alarmist but he doesn't
	fool around either.  Heck! I mentioned once that it seemed like
	sometimes she forgets to breath and the next thing I knew we had 
	the monitoring equipment at home for a 24 hours eval. I would like 
	to believe that all of them are like this: You notice something,
	they listen, and act if needed.
  	
	Last night I was talking to my husbands Aunt and she told me that
	they took the baby to the hospital yesterday and he has the flu.
	The thing that shocks me is that he weighed 11 lbs. before and
	has since lost 2 pounds and they didn't keep him overnight! 2
	out of 11 pounds seems like a substantial % of his body wieght
	and of real concern if he has this flu that is going around!

	I think that soon I may have to speak with her myself, but not
	being an immediate family member, I have avoided that so far.

	I also like the idea of giving her the "What to expect in the
	first year"   Maybe I will try that.  No one in the family knows
	what to do.  I think everyone is running out of ways to politely
	and indirectly mention things hoping that she will take the 
	initiative herself.  And we are all feeling like horrible liars
	everytime we see him and say, "He looks good."

	I don't think that I could ever really call DSS about this, I
	know that is the absolute last resort.  	

	Thanks---
1267.7How do you tick off a 6 month old?EICMFG::BINGERWarthogs of the world uniteTue Dec 31 1991 13:2813
      Re .0
>      	He also never seems to cry.  He only seems to cry if he gets really
>	ticked off or he is really hungry. He screamed so hard on Christmas
        >>>>>>>
>	when she put his winter coat on him that he was shaking.

      My last experience with one this age was in 1976 so the memories are a
      little rosy. My question would be .. Who ticks him off, What does a
      quiet 6 month old do to get a ticking off.
      I cannot remember any of my kid at that age showing distress (crying) at
      the sound of a familar voice.
      But as I say the memories are a little rosy.
1267.8KAOFS::S_BROOKTue Dec 31 1991 14:0510
    I think that maybe a call to your own pedi to discuss the situation
    might not be amiss ... he'll have a much better idea to determine
    whether what you are seeing might be quasi-normal, or otherwise, and
    may have some suggestions as to how to get through to her or her
    pedi etc.
    
    What about public health nurses ?  Do they have any in her town to
    maybe help her and maybe convince her that the baby needs more help ?
    
    Stuart
1267.9GOZOLI::BERTINOTue Dec 31 1991 14:286
	Re: .8
	
	That's a good idea!  I remember a visiting nurse came over to
	see us when Megan was about a month old.  She was great!

	I'll try and check into that.
1267.10lay offTLE::RANDALLliberal feminist redneck pacifistTue Dec 31 1991 14:4033
    I tend to agree with the person who pointed out that just because
    the mother isn't talking to you or the rest of the family about
    what's going on doesn't mean that the mother herself is denying
    anything or not seeking appropriate medical treatment for the
    child.  
    
    The baby is under a pediatrician's care and has even seen a
    neurologist, so it isn't likely that medical care is inadequate. 
    
    While many premature babies do develop normally, others have
    delayed development, and sometimes the delay is *more* than the
    number of weeks of prematurity.  Even if the baby was only a month
    early, that still means he's got a developmental age of around 4
    months, and it's not that unusual for a baby to not be holding up
    his head well at four months.  Late, yes.  A problem, not
    necessarily.  
    
    And some children are very placid, very unalert, very slow to
    develop.  Either Parents magazine or Parenting had a good article
    about the slow-developing child last month that might be helpful
    in this regard.  
    
    If the baby reacts to hunger or protests having a coat put on when
    he doesn't like it, that sounds pretty normal.  
    
    Frankly, if I had all these people hanging over my shoulder trying
    to tell me what I should be doing with my baby and implying that I
    was neglectful because the kid wasn't developing fast enough and
    questioning my pediatrician's judgement because he wasn't
    interventionist enough to suit the relatives, I would be really
    ticked off myself.  
    
    --bonnie
1267.11Another possibility...???AIMHI::SJOHNSONTue Dec 31 1991 17:0217
    Geez, my thoughts are a little different than others here...
    
    I would have to expect that if she was in college at the time (of
    pregnancy) that she could have had exposure (we'll say) to alcohol or
    drugs.  I'm not certain I would share my negligence w/ my family -
    especially extended family!  But, it sounds to me like her doctors are
    doing checks on the baby from time to time.  There may not be anything
    that they can do about his condition!?  This is just a guess as to what
    her circumstances are.
    
    How early was she?  You said 1 month - is that 4, 4.5 or 5 weeks early?
    
    Side note:  (everyone being different)  My friend had a baby 4.5 weeks
    premature (w/ excellent prenatal care) & he is developing as an average
    6 month old would.  
    
    Sonia
1267.12GOZOLI::BERTINOThu Jan 02 1992 11:1535
	Bonnie-
	
	No one in the family has been hanging over this girl saying she
	is a bad mother! I don't really know what else to say but that.
	We're not a bunch of old mother hens, telling her what to do all 
	the time.  

	He is currently 1 of 5 children in the family inder the age of 15 
	months.  So of course at gatherings, which occur frequently, the
	kids are a large portion of the conversation.  "What did you do
	for this problem" or "How do you handle that problem"  or "What
	did your pedi say when you saw him last" etc...  We've all learned
	a lot from each other.

	I guess the question comes down to "How do you impart this kind of
	knowledge?"  The fact that giving the baby extra fluid while is has 
	this cold was an utterly new idea to her is surprising to me!

	I don't think the baby has always been seen in a clinic where there
	are mostly residents and the move around frequently.  He may have
	never seen the same Dr. twice.  I'm not sure though. I do know 
	though that when he saw the neurologist she didn't ask any questions
	and when her mother tried to she got really upset with her! 

	Thinking about all of this a lot lately, maybe this (the baby) is 
	just so overwhelming to her that she has retreated.  Maybe she is 
	intimidated by our "appearance" of knowing wha the h*%@ we are doing.
	My reaction, and the reaction of the rest of the family has always
	been "Tell me more!" maybe she doesn't listen to what is going on 
	around her so she won't have to show us what she doesn't know.

	Just a thought.  No more for now.  My brain hurts!

	Wendy
1267.13KAOFS::S_BROOKThu Jan 02 1992 12:0835
>        No one in the family has been hanging over this girl saying she
>        is a bad mother! I don't really know what else to say but that.
>        We're not a bunch of old mother hens, telling her what to do all 
>        the time.  

I think you may have put your finger on something here ...  It may well
be that she does know that there is some problem and doesn't want to
admit it to others for the very fear that she will be called a bad mother.
Moreover, she may already be feeling that she IS a bad mother and doesn't
want the rest of the family rubbing it in.  So, she has retreated.

>        I guess the question comes down to "How do you impart this kind of
>        knowledge?"  The fact that giving the baby extra fluid while is has 
>        this cold was an utterly new idea to her is surprising to me!

You can't unless she wants to receive it.

>        just so overwhelming to her that she has retreated.  Maybe she is 
>        intimidated by our "appearance" of knowing wha the h*%@ we are doing.
>        My reaction, and the reaction of the rest of the family has always
>        been "Tell me more!" maybe she doesn't listen to what is going on 
>        around her so she won't have to show us what she doesn't know.

This is possible, but less likely ...

It sounds like she will need to find someone she can trust to talk to ...
someone who will not be judgemental ... someone she trusts to not gossip
with all the family ... 

I admire the fact that you want to help, but remember that these are not
really your problems so you shouldn't let yourself get overly bogged down
by worrying about them ... you have your own family to raise and you can't
do that if you are spending a lot of time worrying about others.

Stuart
1267.15I would not recommend this...AIMHI::SJOHNSONThu Jan 02 1992 14:3515
    I also feel that getting her the "What to expect the first year" would
    make her feel worse about her son's condition.  Every month they list
    different stages of development that the baby "should" be doing & if
    he/she isn't to contact your doctor immediately as there could be a
    medical problem.
    
    I feel that she probably doesn't need to read a book to remind her as
    she sees all her neices & nephews obviously developing before her's. 
    I'm currently reading the book & would find it devastating if every
    month I would read that my child was not developing as an average child
    of his/her age is.
    
    Just my opinion.
    Sonia (again)
    
1267.16Prematurity book???AIMHI::SJOHNSONThu Jan 02 1992 14:385
    Another book recommendation....... one on prematurity might be a better
    suggestion.  At least that might make her feel better about his
    development rather than upset by his lack of.
    
    
1267.17give the kid a chanceCSC32::M_EVANSFri Jan 03 1992 18:3415
    Being the mother of an "elf", who only weighed 13 pounds at 1 year I
    would take exception to people worrying about the size of my child. she
    was full term and 6 lbs,  2 oz at birth. I mean we are not raising 
    prize pigs here we are raising babies.  FWIW she has decided food is
    great now and is in the small range of normal at the age of 6.  If  Carrie
    hadn't been developing on the normal curve, my Dr. would have gone
    non-linear, before she had an elf of her own.    
    
    I would just give her her space and let her ask the questions.  She can
    obviously see her baby is "different" from the others, and doesn't need
    any more pressure on how her baby should be doing.  Be available, but
    don't push yourself or your good advice on her.  Also remember every
    baby is different and he may just be slow at this point.
    
    Meg
1267.18ease upTLE::RANDALLliberal feminist redneck pacifistMon Jan 06 1992 12:3339
    re: .12
    
    What I was trying to say is that from her perspective, your
    interest and concern probably come across as interference and
    criticism, no matter how you intend them. 
    
    When somebody says something like "there are x other premature
    babies in this family and none of them have this kind of problem"
    the unspoken conclusion a new mother, especially a single mother,
    often hears is, "...so if your baby is having problems, it must be
    because you were a bad mother."  It doesn't matter if we name 95
    premature babies that didn't have any problems, the fact remains
    that some of them do, and it's not usually from anything the
    mother did or didn't do.  And the problems might not even be
    related to prematurity or anything else. 
    
    I'm not sure what else you want the doctors to be doing.  Most
    5-month-old babies have not seen neurologists, so obviously the
    clinic doctors are aware something is not quite right. 
    
    Maybe she could learn some stuff from you and the other relatives
    that would make her mothering task a little easier -- but she's
    been a mother herself for a few months now and I'll bet she's
    stumbled across some stuff that would help you too.
    
    If I were being pressured for medical details about my children in
    a situation where for whatever reason I didn't want to talk about
    it, I wouldn't have any compunction about telling the other person
    I didn't ask rather than letting myself be forced into a
    discussion I didn't want to have.  Especially my mother.  So I
    still don't think you can conclude that because the mother hasn't
    told any of you what's going on, that means that *she* doesn't
    know. 
    
    As Meg says in .17, just be there for her.  And remember that
    mothering styles differ, and just because she's doing something
    differently than you do, it doesn't mean it's wrong. 
    
    --bonnie
1267.19It's natural to want to helpVAXUUM::FONTAINEMon Jan 06 1992 17:2431

I didn't think, from reading Wendy's notes (and I also happen to know her!) that
she considers the cousin's ways of doing things wrong, just because they aren't
Wendy's way of doing things.  It was definitely impressed upon me that she's 
looking for ways to "impart knowledge".  The girl could be less informed in
matters of child health and care since it was an unexpected pregnancy, and
it was discovered quite late in the game (7 mos?) she probably didn't get to 
spend alot of time preparing for motherhood.  Bonnie mentioned that "she
probably stumbled across some stuff that would help you too".  That may or may
not be true, give her the opportunity to take part also.   From the sound of 
it, she has probably had a tougher row to hoe than the other moms in the family 
and maybe to gently ease her into family talks, over time, could be 
beneficial to both her and her child.  

Continue to openly ask the other moms, along with the cousin, lots of questions 
about, what do I do for this, what did you do for that, as you have done in 
the past, so she'll realize that we "all" need help with child rearing at 
one time or another.  We're human! (and all parents are NEW parents at some 
point, right?).  Somehow she has to see for herself that you aren't going to 
start to be judgemental.  

Quite a delicate situation.  I don't imagine it's an easy thing to sit by and 
not be able to openly help her as you may want to do.  I think "Gently" is 
the key here.

Good luck Wendy,

Nancy


1267.20think about it from the mother's point of viewTLE::RANDALLliberal feminist redneck pacifistMon Jan 06 1992 18:4226
    I'm sure neither the base noter nor her family intends to come
    across that way.  I'm sure they all have the best of intentions. 
    But in a situation like this it's very nearly impossible not to
    come off as criticizing and judging.  
    
    It's inherently rather judgemental to assume that one has a whole
    store of knowledge that someone else is in need of.  Why would a
    person want to offer advice if they didn't think the other person
    was doing it wrong in the first place?
    
    As a former 20-year-old single mother myself, I winced when I read
    the base note, and I've had a hard time staying civil over
    references to "the girl" and suggestions to call in the DSS
    because she doesn't take her baby to the doctor often enough, or
    whatever it was that she did wrong. 
    
    Tough row to hoe is right -- an unexpected pregnancy, presumably
    the breakup of the relationship with the father, a premature baby
    who had to be hospitalized with the flu and who may have
    developmental problems?  I'd be in the lunatic asylum.  
    
    Maybe it would be more productive to think in terms of what you
    can do to lighten her load a bit instead of getting her to take
    advice for her own good.
    
    --bonnie
1267.21PCOJCT::REISGod is my refugeTue Jan 07 1992 16:2811
    
    FWIW; My sister-in-laws second daughter was nine months old before she
    rolled over on her own!!! My husband and I both thought that she might
    be retarded as she would just lay there staring at the ceiling and
    rarely cried. My husband did mention it to his sister and she was
    highly insulted but did have the baby checked out. I'm glad to say that
    she is perfectly ok and today is a very intelligent 10 year old. As
    other noters have advised just be there in case something does turn out
    to be wrong. Chances are its nothing.
    
    Trudy 
1267.22Premature twinsBONNET::LORDWed Jan 08 1992 12:517
    I have had premature twins (girl and boy) who are 2 1/2 years now. 
    They were born at 7 months, each one weighing 1.2kg, which is very
    small. My son Matthew only sat-up alone at 12 months and walked at 16
    months. He was in fact late on everything. But today, he really
    is a normal kid. It's a difficult situation indeed. 
    
    Nathalie
1267.23FOCUS ON THE BABYMR4DEC::SPERAThu Jan 09 1992 14:0526
    Just another opinion but...
    
    Think about helping the baby. It sounds as if you may be around the
    baby frequently. Play games, do exercises, stretch those little legs.
    Hold that baby. Feed that baby, cuddling him in your arms.
    
    None of it can hurt the baby. If it is failure to thrive or if there is
    a medical or neurological problem you will be helping.
    
    I  just adopted a little girl who was 5 months old when I first saw
    her. She weighed under 9 pounds and except for the ability to track
    with her eyes and to smile, she seemed to me to resemble a small
    newborn. Even her posture could only be described as fetal. 
    
    I've done a lot of cuddling and talking and singing and stretching of
    tight muscles in her legs. She's made incredible progress in weight and
    in development. We see a neurologist next week...she's still behind and
    we're not sure why. She's now almost 8 months old, not sitting up,
    some poor muscle tone, etc...
    
    My point is that the baby's mother may be overwhlmed, may be dumb, or
    may be in denial. If you focus on the baby, you may find you get a
    better sense of what is going on with him and in the meantime will be
    helping both baby and mom.
    
    Good luck. It's so hard to know how best to help.
1267.24My guess ... environment is the culprit!CALS::JENSENThu Jan 09 1992 14:4343
I, too, was concerned about the distinct differences between my daughter's
development (physical, emotional, intellectual, etc.) and my nephew's
(he's 1 month younger).  My sister-in-law had a very difficult pregnancy
compounded by a more difficult delivery and the fact that "she" (not the baby)
spent the following 4-6 weeks hospitalized/recuperating while my brother-in-law
juggled a newborn, a fulltime job and a bedridden wife.  My brother-in-law did a
fantastic job!! ... but I think it was the concessions they HAD to make to
"survive" all this that made their son so docile, easy-going and lax-a-daxacle.
This kid had NO ambition, NO motivation ... he was happy to be tanked up and 
left to sleep!  He got quite big, I might add (which only stymied his physical
development (kicking, pulling up, crawling, walking, etc.) yet more.  He had a
big head and he, too, used to have trouble to holding it up and controlling his
neck/arm muscles.

But once he FINALLY got up and started walking, he did slim down some and
become more "motivated".  He's still not talking and as physically stable
and motivated as Juli, but he has tightened up the development_gap between
"him and Juli" these past 6 months -- although there is still a difference
between them, I no longer think it's anything to be worried about.

Also, a lot has to do with the parents, care providers and other children
stimulating and motivating the child!  Kids learn from "others" and if they
spend most of their day in an infant carrier or swing - merrily sleeping - 
rather than stimulated with activity (voices, music, rattles ... and yes!,
typical daily CHAOS!), they will probably learn and develop at a much slower
pace.

Since the child has been seen by a Pedi and Neurologist ... My guess would
be perhaps it's his environment that might be the culprit here.
Does his mother take him outdoors in the stroller, socialize with other
children, play with him, talk/sing to him, introduce music (other than hard
rock), teach him to hold a rattle, roll on the floor, hold her finger, follow
her motions (God, when I think how many times Juli - at the age of 3 months -
watched (and listened to my chatter!) while I prepared just about every dinner!
And how many times I sat on the hard kitchen floor teaching her how to walk
around a kitchen chair ... how many times I encouraged her to reach for my
fingers and pull herself forward ... Sigh ... where have those days gone?

Just my two cents!

Dottie

1267.25Lindsay's storyVORTEX::AAARGH::LOWELLGrim Grinning Ghosts...Fri Jan 10 1992 17:0660
    I hope this reply doesn't offend anyone.  It's just a few thoughts
    I've had about this situation and isn't directed toward any specific
    reply or person.
    
    Why is it that everybody seems to get concerned when a child develops
    slower than average yet nobody seems to bat an eyelash when a child
    develops faster than average?  How many parents of children who
    were walking at 9 or 10 months have been bombarded with questions
    from "well meaning" friends, relatives and coworkers?  "Gee Ruth,
    Nicole is walking awfully early.  Have you talked to her doctor
    about it?  Are you sure she's not hyperactive?"  "Nicole, are you
    going to be a problem when you start going to school?"  I can't
    speak for everyone but I never got anything but glowing comments
    about Nicole's progress.
    
    On the other hand, my sister got lots of "well meaning" advice
    and comments about her daughter.  Lindsay was similar to the baby
    in .0.  She was a surprise pregnancy - mom was taking birth control
    pills - and my sister was not under a physicians care during the
    early part of her pregnancy.  Lindsay was born at 35 weeks and
    weighed a little over 5 pounds.  She weighed 4 pounds, 12 ounces
    when she came home from the hospital.  I can't remember what she
    weighed when she was 5 months old.  Recently my sister was comparing
    Lindsay's development to my son Andrew's development.  I believe
    she said Lindsay wasn't even holding her head up at 6 months.  I
    can't remember too many details about her development but I remember
    Lindsay being a very quiet baby who mainly sat in her infant seat
    and slept a lot.  At 3 or 4 months, she was still very easily
    startled (her arms would shoot straight out when you picked her up)
    and she didn't cry very loud (or very often).  I remember my sister
    commenting when Lindsay finally let out with a real strong cry.
    Lindsay did eventually catch up to her cousins at about 18 months.
    She is now 4 1/2 and is fine.  However, my sister still seems to
    harbor guilt about the whole situation.  I don't know how to
    explain it but it seems like she feels as though she was a bad
    mother or something.  I think it was really tough for my sister
    because Lindsay's cousins were developing faster than Lindsay was.
    On top of that, my sister had been taking a medication known to
    cause birth defects before she knew she was pregnant.  So I think
    (actually, I'm certain) it made her feel inadequate.  And, the
    "innocent" comments like, "Is Lindsay walking yet?" didn't help.
    My sister's feelings of guilt and inadequacy got worse when
    Lindsay turned 1 because at that time they found out she couldn't
    tolerate milk products.  They switched her from milk based formula
    to soy based and immediately her physical development blossomed.  My
    sister seems to feel stupid for not knowing Lindsay couldn't tolerate
    milk products, but her intolerance only manifested itself when she
    put Lindsay on whole milk.
    
    Anyway, I wanted to write about Lindsay because I think the mother
    of the baby in .0 seems to be in a situation similar to my sister's
    (although Lindsay never saw a neurologist).  Although nobody seems
    to be outright calling her a bad or inadequate mother, if she's
    extremely sensitive or has low self-esteem, she may be interpreting
    every remark as a negative comment about her.  For example, in
    my sister's case, if my mother said something like, "Look at Nicole
    chasing the dog", my sister internalized it as, "Lindsay wasn't
    walking when she was Nicole's age so she's saying I'm a bad mother."
    
    Ruth
1267.26thank youTIPTOE::STOLICNYFri Jan 10 1992 17:488
    RE: .25
    
    Ruth,
    
    Thank you for adding Lindsay's story.  I think it really helps to
    put things in perspective.
    
    Carol, who interprets things alot like Lindsay's mom...
1267.27VORTEX::AAARGH::LOWELLGrim Grinning Ghosts...Fri Jan 10 1992 18:1045
    Now that I've related Lindsay's story, I figured I'd enter my
    thoughts about the baby in .0.
    
    When I read Wendy's notes, I wasn't too concerned about the
    baby's development.  He is under a physicians and a neurologists
    care.  Although it may seem like they aren't doing much, they may be
    doing all they can at this time.  It almost seems like they may feel
    everything is ok but did a few tests just in case (sort of a CYA
    measure).  The baby is not being neglected - they've obviously
    worked on the feeding problem, he's seen a neurologist, he's been
    taken to the hospital when he was ill, etc..  I was surprised that
    the mother didn't know to give the baby more fluids when he was ill
    and even more surprised that she seems to be unwilling to ask the
    neurologist for more information (or at least is unwilling to have
    her mother do the asking).  Is the mother intimidated by medical
    personnel?  I remember being very reluctant to ask questions because
    I was afraid of looking stupid.  If the mother is feeling inadequate,
    she may be afraid to ask about the baby.
    
    Are the mother and baby living with the grandmother?  It seems like
    the grandmother is quite involved with the baby and may inadvertently
    be acting like a "mother hen."  If she has even once done the old
    "Have you tried ____?" routine, that's enough to put her in that
    category.  If she was around when the mother and pediatrician were
    dealing with the spitting up problem, I almost guarantee she did it.
    So what's wrong with "Have you tried ___?"  Probably nothing but if
    the baby's mother is feeling inadequate, she more than likely took it
    as "You're a bad mother."  Take a look at the troublesome grandparents
    note (sorry, don't know the number) if you don't understand what I'm
    saying.
    
    The best I can suggest is to talk with the mother when the rest of
    the family isn't around and just let her know you're there if she
    needs a friend.  It seems like she could benefit from some sort of
    support group, especially a group of young mothers such as herself,
    but I would never tell her so myself.  If the subject comes up, it
    might be nice to offer to loan her any books you might have and to
    suggest looking for a young mothers or new mothers group.  If it
    were me, I'd be as supportive as possible and would make sure to
    give as much attention to her baby as I did to the active ones.  If
    you let her know you love her baby as much as the others, she'll know
    you're sincere about wanting to help her.
    
    Good luck,
    Ruth
1267.28NEURON::REEVESSun Jan 12 1992 08:0916
    	As the mother of a developmentally delayed child, I can relate to 
    what the mother in .0 is probably going through.  
    	We make MANY visits to the doctor and in the beginning (first 5
    months or so) I was not only intimidated by the doctors but very naive.
    I thought that they would tell me everything I was supposed to know. 
    Well they don't and I have learned thru embarrassment and from the help 
    of some great friends how to handle the doctors. 
    	Shayne was my first child, a BIG surprise and then with all his 
    problems I went through a lot of different stages.  Shock, guilt, anger
    confusion and many other things.  
    	Be patient with the mother, let her try to get a handle on the fact 
    that she is a mother and get used to that fact.  She is dealing with 
    an awful lot right now.
    
    MHO,
    Malinda
1267.29Put it back on yourself....BCSE::WEIERPatty, DTN 381-0877Fri Jan 17 1992 12:1421
    According to my Drs, any baby born premature takes ~2 years to catch up
    developmentally with other children their age.  Both of mine were
    premature, and I'd say it took closer to three years before they were
    equal with their peers.
    
    As for helping the mom .... when I wanted to give advice to someone
    about their children, the most effective way I found was to relate to
    them a story about ME or a friend of mine, stating a similar problem,
    and the things we tried, while NEVER mentioning their child.  For
    example, if I wanted to suggest to a friend to try cereal before bed to
    help the baby sleep, I'd say something like;
    I remember when Chris was little, he'd wake up all night long, and
    really drive us crazy.  Finally we started giving him cereal before
    bed, and that seemed to help .... I thought he'd NEVER sleep through!
    
    This let's her know that you understand some of the feelings, and also
    gives her an idea w/out it necessarily sounding like you're telling her
    what to do.
    
    Good Luck!