Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Marie
    
    It is quite normal for a father to shower with young children. In
    general however, when parents bathe with their children they should
    discourage in a non judgemental fashion the children touching the
    parents privates. 
    
    There is nothing at all wrong with a mother bathing a son or a father
    bathing a daughter at this age.
    
    Bonnie

    just IMO, at 2.10 I can't translate what you've related here to
    "incest" or any other kind of abuse.  UNLESS..... something else is
    happening IN the shower or bath.
    
    From our real life experiences, AJ who will be 5 next week will still
    occationally shower (mostly with) dad, and (occationally) with me. 
    With these NONfrequent occurances, its usually a case of, "let's hurry
    up, we all need to shower in a hurry and the old adage of save water
    shower with a friend (or relative in this case).  We are very
    noncommital when these instances occur.  It's strictly a case of,
    in-out-dry off-get OUT of the bathroom while the grownup finishes
    his/her shower.  To take it a bit further, both of my "boys" have a
    habit of sitting *forever* on the toilet.  Sometimes there just isn't
    enough time to wait for who ever is one the toilet to finish there, so
    I can take a shower.  So I go in, shut the glass sliders and take my
    shower. Usually whoever is "sitting" has finished and left by the time
    I'm done showering.  Pure convienience in this case.
    
    AJ absolutely worships the ground his father walks on, and so the
    occational father-son shower to AJ is a real treat, but is definitely
    not done very frequently.
    
    Did you say something about the daughter touching the father's breasts?
    or did I mis-translate that?  I'd say not to worry.  AJ did it to his
    father's *very* hairy chest at that age, his father would make like it
    tickled him, and giggle like it did.  That phase was soon forgotten.
    
    I would say, IMO, not to read into something that I really don't think
    is there. If it were, there should be other signs of a dysfunctional family.
    
    Lyn
    

    I just reread the base note, and again to say that it sounds inocent
    enough.  My guess, based on experience is that at that age, a shower is
    a little slippery, and if a penis is all that's there to grab onto,
    then that's what you grab!  I heard my husband howl several times from
    the shower when AJ lost his balance, and grabbed the first thing
    available!
    
    Lyn

    To :1 & :2
    
    I've read you both in this file over the years.  If her story had
    involved her father washing her in the tub I would have had no concern. 
    I have several friends that were sexually abused as young children and
    as I said my upbringing didn't allow showering with my father.
    
    thanks.

    Please also check these related notes:
    
        308   Penis fascination
        764   Preschooler's sexual curiosity
    
    Laura
    co-mod

I have always taught my son (age 9) that there is nothing to be ashamed of
in the human body, and at the same time that privacy is a good thing. We
teach that closed doors mean knock first and wait for a reply before
entering.  We also don't hide when we're dressing and Sean comes into our
room.  He doesn't usually hide himself either.  I think that's healthy
and that  he'll grow up feeling good about his body rather than embarrassed
and ashamed.  We've been quite open about his questions about body parts
and functions, and I'm pretty proud of the fact that as a first grader he
knew how babies were made and could talk about it using appropriate
language without giggles and smirks.

All this is different from touching genitals, which as previous replies
said could be incidental or accidental, or not.  I'm also concerned
about the little girl's statement about wanting "big boobs" and what
sounded like her belief that having them would please daddy.  You have to
wonder why she'd have that thought.  Perhaps daddy has girlie magazines or
calendars that she's come across or perhaps daddy makes comments about
voluptuous women in her presence.  Even if there's nothing abusive going
on, her concept of womanhood is already warped and I think that's sad.

My nickel's worth.

-Caryn

    re:6
    
    Her father does make the comments about the size to his first daughter
    age 15, who lives with her mother and visits the house on occassion.. 
    Emily's comments about "boob's" are usually made after Sara has been to
    the house for a visit... so I was surprised when she told me about
    being in the shower with her father..
    
    I am very careful about any discussion of "size" as Emily is not likely
    to have "big boobs".. Big as in anything larger than 34A... I'm much
    bigger than that and was teased for years by boys and girls cause I
    matured at the young age of 11.. in those days, girls were little girls
    for lots of years... I was the only girl in the 6th grade that needed
    or wore a bra... 
    
    Thanks for pointers on the subject and I am feeling much better. 
    
    Marie

I wouldn't think that there is anything necessarily wrong with the
scenario you've described ... it's a little unfortunate that the child
has learned that breasts should be described as boobs.  The idea that
they will grow into "big" breasts is also not something that need
necessarily reek of any sexist overtones since in describing a grown
breast to a young child, a rather oversimplified description will be
used.

We generally have an "open door" policy in our house, but made our girls
sensitive to inappropriate body behaviour.  So that privacy requested is
honoured and so on.  One day our littlest, at 2 1/2 wandered into the
bathroom one day and looked at me saying "Daddy, You've got a TAIL!"
and proceeded to reach!  A gentle hand and words ... "No that's not a
tail, and please don't touch ... " and then told her what it was and
for now, it's primary use and that girls don't have one like that!  It 
was all I could do to stop from breaking out in fits of laughter.

So, now instead of calling it some "baby" word she knows just what it is,
and I am far happier with that situation.  It makes it much easier to
talk about sex later if you haven't told lies or made the body *too*
private.

Stuart

    I was wondering - and this is as good a place as any:
    
    What word should I use for my daughter's genitals when she is old
    enough to ask?  I've heard people use "vagina" but I think I will use
    "labia" since that's the part she can see.     I would rather err on
    the side of the clinical rather than be cute.  It's much simpler for  a
    boy.
    
    ?
    
    Laura
    

I use the "socially acceptable proper terms" that way when someone else hears 
the child use the terms, they are at least familiar with them and will know what
the child is refering to.  Personally, I have never heard the word labia used in
conversation with children, or even my gyn!  

-sandy

    Based on our experience I wasn't alarmed by the base note.  Kati had a
    strong curiosity of David's penis for a few months, and once asked him
    if she could touch it.  Although he was quite uncomfortable (good thing
    I wasn't around or I would have been rolling!) he understood that she
    probably wanted to see what it felt like.
    
    Both girls call breasts "boobies" - Kimmi yells for "boobie" when she
    wants to nurse, while she's tearing off my shirt.  Kati calls her
    vagina her "gina" and a penis is a "weener."  While several people
    don't think those terms are appropriate, I rarely hear the anis called
    that - it is usually rear end, butt, or bum.  Ours call it the
    hiney-bo.
    
    Oh well..... I hope that there is nothing to be alarmed about, but only
    you know all the parties in question, so act based on your judgement. 
    Perhaps start by telling daddy that you were concerned/alarmed/etc...
    
    Kristen

    (And before anybody jumps on me for my title, that's from Monty Python)
    
    OK, Alexandra and I call what you sit on your bottom, your rear end or
    your fanny; if we're getting really specific about the hole where the
    poop comes out, then we say "anus" (but how often does that discussion
    take place... she forgets the word from one incident to another).
    
    Her more anterior private parts are called, collectively, her "vulva." 
    I decided to use that term because if we need to get more specific we
    can talk about labia, clitoris, etc., but generally the conversation
    would be referring to the whole area ("please go someplace private if you
    need to..."  :-)  ).  I know that *I* never knew of the existence of
    the (my) vagina til I was [mumblesomthing] years old; that interior
    cavity and the lining thereof just never called any attention to itself
    til I was *much* older than Alex is now (7 in two weeks)! 
    
    Let's see, what else is there - we call a breast a breast, and I've
    explained to Alex that most private body parts have MANY nicknames,
    some funny and some downright rude, ignorant and insulting.  (I've seen
    examples of all of these in this string but won't spell out which I
    think are which.)  Alex and I might laugh at the funny ones and talk
    about the others, but we *use* our words.
    
    Leslie                   

    RE:  -1
    
    Thank you for suggesting the word vulva.  Question:  do other people
    understand the word if she needs to ask a question or get help? 
    Specifically, I am thinking of the pediatrician (I should HOPE he/she
    would understand the word -;)), her teachers, babysitter, etc.  
    
    That is one of the reasons why I want to teach my daughter a clinical
    term, not a cute name - so that she is understandable to other people.  
    
    I also want to facilitate her sex education by fostering a matter-of-
    fact attitude.
    
    Laura

    Hmmm, Laura, I'm not sure how decipherable the word "vulva" would be to
    friends or teachers who aren't medical professionals (but then, I'm
    not, and I knew the word!).  Alex will sometimes default to saying
    "vagina", probably because most of her medical-term-speaking peers use
    that word instead.  So I assume that in the rare instance when she'd
    need to talk about that area to teachers, babysitters, etc., she'd make
    herself understood.
    
    And Ha! I realized after I'd entered .12 that I said zip about male
    anatomy!  Sorry, guys!  We say "penis" (and it's so much fun to hear in
    public at high volume....) and "testicles", which usually comes out
    more like "tentacles" when Alex has occasion to remember the word.
    
    Leslie

    Hopefully, you'll com eback and read another opinion.
    
    Please keep your eye on the situation. The child is telling you about
    it. That may be the child's way of asking for help. Perhaps something
    more is happening, something she isn't telling you about.
    
    Of course, you can't go in making charges but a child has trusted you
    with what may be very important information. Please don't dismiss it
    because some perfectly normal people shower with their children. The 
    fact is some perfectly normal appearing people abuse their children.
    

Re .15

While what you've said is true ... the thing is that abusers are few and
far between and it is very easy to read too much into a child's words. So
I would keep a close eye on the situation from what the child says in the
future, but it is important not to put any ideas into the child's head if
she brings this discussion up again in the future.  It would be very easy
to, in effect, make her believe that what might in fact be totally innocent
is something very wrong either on her part or the adult's part.

It is a situation that requires a great deal of tact and care.

Stuart

I have had some of the same thoughts as .15.  *Many* children are abused
and when they tell someone about it they still do not get help.  Sometimes
they are not believed; sometimes they are belittled or yelled at by the
person they tell.  The abuser is protected more often than the victim.

Because of this, the children often do not tell again.  It is also common for
them to tell about it initially in an offhand way, to sort of "test the waters"
about the person they are telling it to - sometimes, somehow, the child *knows*
that there is something wrong here, but s/he also knows that s/he can be blamed
for it (and the child doesn't realize that it is unjust to blame the child). 

I realize that this little girl is very young (2.10), and so if she has been
abused her reactions and words may be different from that of an older child.
Nor am I saying that she *has* been abused, but this is certainly a danger
sign.  Your (the basenoter's) reaction was good: to not show alarm.  The child
could interpret an adult's alarm as that *she* (the child) did something wrong.
She might even lie to protect her dad.  I did.  Or at least, I lied to protect
*me*, thinking that *I* would be the one to get into trouble.  I did so by
responding "angrily", "How could you believe that *MY FATHER* would do such
a thing?!", acting as if my father were some kind of god or something.

Keep your eyes open.  Perhaps it was *nothing*.  Certainly children are 
curious and she may have just asked to touch it, he let her one time, and
that was that.  Perhaps it was more.  Keep your eyes open.  I think it is
more important to protect the child than it is to protect the adult.

         Carol

    re: - a few
    
    Thanks for the input.  I'll keep my ears open.  
    
    Marie