Conference moira::parenting_v3

    My reply to my boys about why their grandparents smoke is that they
    know the dangers of this habit, yet they choose to continue.  We cannot
    make them stop or change - it is something they have been doing for a
    very long time and it's something only they can stop.  We can't do it
    for them.   My sons have been trying to get them to stop since they
    realized NOT everyone was doing it.
    
    Same as any other dependancy - it's up to the "user" to take the
    necessary steps.  Also I make sure the boys know that to not start is
    the best way to keep it from being a habit they may not be able to
    break!
    
    It is fair to the children that they know it is a "drug".  Don't
    downplay this thing just because it's hitting close to home.  Be honest
    with them and tell them like it is.  Believe me, they will trust you
    more if you are upfront with them!!!!
    
    -sandy
    
    
    

My boys are entering the dangerous age when they are going to be exposed to 
drugs and drinking and smoking and all that.  For this reason, I bought the book
"When Saying No Isn't Enough" which I highly recommend to all parents of
young or old children.  It's written by a former heavy drug user.  He discusses
the question brought up in the base note.

Basically, when alcohol is not being abused he says that the way parents 
approach having a drink is important.  If it is taken as a "remedy" to get
over a problem or hard day work or whatever, that's a bad example to set for the
kids.  The message he says parents should give is that "Yes, this is a drug
but we are aware of the dangers and drink it for the enjoyment and pleasure
it gives us in moderate amounts."  He goes on to apply this argument to smoking
and even prescription and over-the-counter drugs.

I guess it is hard to explain but I found the book to be a very informative
approach to dealing with both legal and illegal drugs in our lives.  Fortunately
we haven't had to deal with the negative side of this problem but I found
dealing with the "glass of wine at supper" and my children to be a lot easier.

Cheryl

    RE: .1
    
    I don't smoke but my parents and sisters do....I think I will tell
    my children a little differently then you did.  First of all, I
    think my parents and sisters *WISH* they could stop without all the
    pain attributed to smoking.  I would explain about addiction rather
    than choice.  If I told my children that my parents smoke by choice
    even though they know the dangers, that would imply that they don't
    care about themselves and are throwing their lives away.  When they
    started smoking the ads used to say 'it's good for you'.  My sisters
    started as a result of peer pressure and 'everybody does'.  After your
    hooked, I think people are beyond *choice* and are now into addiction. 
    
    I remember when I was a little girl and found out smoking could kill
    you.  I woke up crying (I was about 7) and told my mother to stop or
    she would be dead in the morning.  Very tough on kids to understand why
    a person will *willfully* harm themselves....we have so many dangers we
    know about...even in food...but we all think....it won't happen to
    me...it will happen to someone else.  
    
    I guess a parent needs to keep things in perspective and let the child 
    know the whole picture and hope they make the right choices in their 
    lives.  We can only guide them, but it is up to them...bottom line.  
    Why I never smoked and all my relatives and family did, still makes me 
    wonder.  In my mind, inhaling smoke just seemed so stupid...not 
    pleasurable.  However, I do drink so I guess I will have to deal with 
    that one sooner or later...
    
    Kristen 
    
    
    

    I've been talking with the parents in my neighborhood.  Out of 3
    families, 2 have chosen to home school their children.  When I asked
    them why they chose to home-school rather than public school, their
    answer was this:  First, they do not like the way they teach the
    children and second, they are starting this Drug and Alcohol program.
    
    From what I'm told, each child is spoken to and asked the following
    questions:
    
    1.  Do your parents drink this?  (Hard liquor)
    2.  Do your parents drink this?  (Beer, wine, wine-coolers)
    3.  Do your parents smoke this?  (Marijuana, pipes, etc)
    4.  Do your parents smoke this?  (Cigarettes)
    
    Know, I believe that some parents are heavy drinkers and drug users and
    they should have a close eye on them, but for the others who
    occasionally have a cigarette or a beer on Friday night shouldn't be
    classified in the same category.  These children are asked all sorts of
    questions about their parents, and the administration is not telling
    the parents that they are asking these questions.  The children at this
    school are also asked not to tell their parents what was discussed
    between the child and administration.  I think this is wrong.  We found
    out because one of the children did tell his parents.
    
    I smoke and so does my husband, but we are not chain smokers.  We smoke
    away from the children and not all the time.  We're usually too busy to
    sit down and smoke a pack of butts.  We never drink during the week. 
    On weekends we occasionally have a few friends over after the kids 
    are gone to bed to watch some movies or play games.  And yes, we have 
    a few beers.  We don't drink Kool-aid at these parties.
    
    My children are still very young, so they're not in school yet.  But
    when they start to understand about drinking and smoking, I want to be
    the one to tell them about it.  I don't want the public schools
    brain-washing my kids about drinking and smoking, and have the schools
    telling them that their parents are evil and no-good.  I don't want it!
    
    I know that smoking is bad.  I will tell my children about it in my own
    way, not the schools way.
    
    I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this reply, but it's my honest
    opinion.  We're the parents, we are responsible for the lives of our
    children.  I do agree that some children should be watched over because
    of possible abuse from druggie and alcoholic parents, but we shouldn't
    all be classified together.  Just because a parent has an occasional
    beer and maybe a few butts, doesn't mean that they aren't good parents.
    
    I think my husband and I are better parents than some people we know
    that don't smoke and don't drink any alcohol.
    
    Just my $.02 worth.
    
    
    
    

    I forgot to mention this in my last note.  One of the other parents in
    my neighborhood is a diabetic.  I am too.
    
    When the administration asked them if they're parents used a needle,
    the child said yes.  Now, the needle is not used for drugs so to speak,
    it is used for medication to keep a diabetic alive.
    
    Now if you ask my child, "Does mommy or daddy use one of these?"  My
    child would answer yes.  She would not say anything about it's for
    medication, she would just answer yes.
    
    Sometimes what is asked of the child and what is answered are perceived
    differently by strangers.  I don't want the schools to think that my
    children's mother is a drug user because she uses a needle, but I guess
    I will have to stress the medical-use only concept a little better.
    
    Another $.02 worth.
    
    

    the last replies HAVE been quite alarming. It sounds very
    overzealous to me. Although in some ways I am glad to see that the 
    school system is taking SOME social responsibilies, THIS is a little
    too much! 
    Has anyone formally complained to the school board over this program?
    
    I think as to the examples you have given, there are no absolute wrongs
    and rights in this issue. To make assumptions about smoking, drinking
    and needles that parents use is VERY dangerous. This kind of schooling
    will most likely lead to lawsuits soon. 
    
    I will be honest that my husband and I are very anti-smoking (although
    his entire family have been heavy smokers for years) and I'd say that
    together we consume no more than 5 glasses of beer or wine or liquor a
    month. 
    
    However, I DEFINITELY sympathize with those parents out there
    struggling to find the proper way to handle this situation regardless
    of their personal consumption of any of the substances in question. 
    
    Its a very difficult society to teach morals and what we percieve as
    the desired "correct" attitude in our children. I admire all those 
    parents in this conference who are obviously hard at work on this 
    task. 
    
    Monica,
    a concerned parent-to-be
     

In the case over here, my first reaction was that I was upset but then I learned
that it was done absolutely anonymously.

From what I have been able to judge from what my children tell me, the anti-
drug campaign in the school is very well done and I support it whole heartedly.
Handling the drinking and smoking over here is a bit more difficult.  Wine is
as much a part of life as milk is (and in Switzerland we have a lot of BOTH).
Anti-smoking campaigns have not had any where near the impact that they've had
in the states but I've never smoked and my husband is a reformed smoker so
the boys don't seem interested.  We don't make a big deal out of either
not smoking or not drinking for the children and wine is our hobby so it is
treated with respect and not something to have too much of.

But I really worry about the big bad world out there in terms of drugs.  
Schooling at home is not an option for us so I appreciate the efforts the
school system goes to to keep the school and the environs drug free and to
teach children the dangers.  They are certainly in a better position to know who
and what is out there going after our children than I am.

ccb

>    My question is where or rather how do you draw the line between
>    good "druggin" or "acceptable druggin" and abuse of drugging?

   Personally, I would have great difficulty drawing such a line with
   smoking.  I don't recall hearing about any recent study that says
   anything good or even neutral about smoking.  Drinking and some
   other things are not the same, I believe.  Best wishes in resolving
   this question..
   
   - Tom
   

    Here are my opinions, and that is all that they are!
    
    The way this is being approached at school seems, to me, to scream of
    radical brain washing, period.  We as adults should know that smoking,
    drinking and drugs are bad for you, and can kill you in large enough
    quantities.  Now I am glad the school has taken a stand on this, but it
    seems rather one sided with not room for discussion.  My initial
    reaction to this was along the lines of me being told by my preschooler
    last year that "sugar is bad, you shouldn't eat it" or "if you don't put
    my lunch in a reusable container you will be 'poluter'"  etc.
    
    Fine, if you've got an opinion express it, but don't teach it to the
    kids as THE ONLY WAY to do something!
    
    Our son sees us have an occational beer or glass of wine.  One of my
    husband and mine favorite things is to tour wineries and attend wine
    tasting. We don't drink and drive, neither of us has ever smoked, and
    we have told AJ that smoking is disgusting ("yuckie" is the word he
    invented and we use) and have told him that we hope he never starts
    smoking.  We have made a very definite division with drugs, we say: 
    "drugs are BAD, medicine is GOOD for you and will make you better when
    you're sick" and further "ONLY Adults that you know can give you
    medicine, like mommy, daddy and grandparents".
    
    On a positive note, the schools must be doing something right.  I heard
    on the news over the last couple weeks articles like, the tobacco
    companies are having serious drops in sales, and the wineries and
    breweries have started producing large quatities of bottled waters to
    supliment large drops in the wine and beer sales.
    
    .....and now I will crawl down off my soapbox.....
    
    Lyn

    I have a few opinions on this subject, keep in mind this is coming from
    the wife of a teacher (inner city school).
    
    First of all, if one of my children came home and said they were being
    asked questions that I thought were inappropriate, I would get in touch
    with the teacher and the principal.  I believe my children, but I would
    want to see and hear for myself from the teacher and the administration
    if this was a part of the curriculum.  This kind of all boils down to
    "being involved".  I see it happening all the time, the parent who is
    not involved and expect the teacher/school to be the mommy, daddy,
    discipliner and teacher, but as soon as they hear something they don't
    like, they jump to conclusions and assume the teacher is screwing up. 
    I'm not saying this is the case here.
    
    Also, someone made a comment about being "responsible adults".  Not ALL
    adults are responsible.  Some children are sent to school with no coats
    in the middle of the winter, no food in their stomach or have been beat
    the nite before because daddy or mommy got drunk.
    
    I guess the point I'm making is... some children need this type of
    "reinforcement" i.e, cigarettes are bad, drugs are bad, etc... because
    they are definitely not getting that at home.  On the other hand, if it
    is a part of the curriculum, the parent should be aware of it.
    
    Again, I'd like to say that I'm sure the above does not pertain anyone
    here. I'm just telling you what I've been seeing for 6+ years.
    
    Joyce
    

    In my opinion...
    
    Not only does what this particular school is doing sound like
    brainwashing, but also hypocritical.  After all, how many of the
    teachers smoke, have occassional drinks, or are diabetics and use
    needles?  How can a school "preach" one way of thinking if their
    teachers are not setting "good" examples.  I remember many times when in
    school walking past the teacher's lounge and seeing them smoke.  If one
    of these students saw this, what would they think?  My brother's
    children are being taught similar things about drugs, alcohol, and
    cigarettes and it has caused a rift in our family, which I can not go
    into here.  I agree that the subjects should be approached, but not in
    such an overzealous way.  I also think that it's mostly the parent's
    responsibilities to take what the school touches upon and elaborate at
    home.
    
    Mary
    
    

The part that really hit me was the "don't tell your parents we're doing this".

Jill

     Before we condemn the school mentioned in .4 and .5 too strongly, let's
note that all we know at this point is hearsay evidence from people who
dislike the school for other reasons.  I get particularly skeptical when I
hear vague terms like "the administration".  Does that mean the principal
comes in the classroom?  The school superintendent?  The school committee? 
Additionally, the only indication we have that the kids were ordered not to
inform their parents is the word of the children (who don't always hear or
report messages correctly), as interpreted by adults, who, once again don't
like the school. 
     I am not flaming .4/.5, nor am I saying that she didn't report her
conversations correctly, nor am I necessarily saying that what the neighbors
said didn't actually happen.  But I do suggest that we be careful in drawing
conclusions, and that the base noter make an appointment with the school that
her children would attend and find out what the school has to say.  I think
it's risky to make decisions and to form opinions on such a small and
probably biased sample.
     I personally have problems with an approach that focuses too heavily on
defining a substance as a drug, but then going no farther.  To me it's
reminiscent of the simplistic "Just say no" and other ineffective
sloganeering type anti-drug campaigns.  I think that recognizing that the
whole drug issue is very complex is a good start.  Yes, I believe that
nicotine is a drug.  So is alcohol and caffeine.  But I think it's important
to go to the next step, and look at what effect nicotine has on the body.
     For example, with regard to smoking, there is no doubt in my mind that
nicotine is addictive, and that the most common way of using it causes
carcinogens to be inhaled into the lungs, and that smoke is harmful to other
people who inhale it.  But I also know of no smokers who have abandoned their
families to pursue smoking, and I know of no smokers who were unable to hold
a job due to their smoking.  I know a lot of heavy smokers, and for the most
part, they are fine people and are able to function pretty normally.  Both
of my parents were pretty heavy smokers, but I don't think that I suffered
emotionally from their smoking.
     On the other hand I know some heavy drinkers, and on frequent occasions
they are not able to function normally at all.  That alcohol related
accidents is a leading cause of death in young people is fact; in addition,
the children of alcoholics often suffer enormous emotional problems.  On the
other hand, I know of many people who drink moderate amounts of alcohol, and
are not "addicts" in any sense of the word.  And I have never seen any
evidence that their moderate or light drinking has any negative effect on
their health.
     So which is worse, alcohol or nicotine?  I don't know.  But I do know
that knowing facts about them is more important than a simplistic discussion
about whether they are "drugs" or not.
     
     Clay     

    In my replies, I just noted how I feel, and how I would want things
    done when my children reach school age.  I do know that my neighbors
    did go down to the school to talk with the principal and the teachers
    in question.  I do not know what happened at that meeting, but this
    weekend, I will be sure to ask what the outcome was.
    
    By administration, I meant principal and teachers.  As far as I know,
    those were the only parties involved.  
    
    I don't want anyone to misread me.  This school is the same elementary
    school I went to.  Way back then, it was a great school with great
    teachers, great academics and a great play-yard.  Obviously things are
    always changing.
    
    As I stated before, I do agree that children should be taught at an
    early age about the bad effects of alcohol, drugs, smoking, and sex.
    But, I don't want anyone to tell my children that "this is the way it
    is, and if you do it, you're evil and you're going to die."
    
    I have already had a smoking discussion with my oldest daughter (4
    years old) and I've told her that smoking is a bad habit and it's hard
    to quit.  I referred this to the time she was constantly carrying a
    blanket around with her.  She had a real hard time getting rid of that
    ratty thing.  So I think that she understands what a "habit" is.
    
    As far as the diabetes and the needles go, she knows that mommy has a
    sickness and mommy has to take a shot so I can have my medicine.  She
    has asked me how come I don't drink it, and I explained that it tastes
    really yucky and that the medicine has to be measured.  She understands
    what mommy is supposed to do and what mommy is not supposed to do. 
    She'll occasionally ask me if I've done my shot.  Unfortunately she has
    seen me in a real serious insulin reaction where it was so bad that the
    EMT's had to come to our house.  After that incident, I sat down with
    her and explained that mommy was ok and this is what happened.  We've
    also taught her how to dial 911 incase mommy doesn't wake up and daddy
    isn't home.  But that's another story in it's self.
    
    I am not condemning the school or the teachers or the principal,
    because I do agree they should be taught this stuff, but I just don't
    agree with the way it's being taught.  I think they're just taking it a
    little too far.
    
    And you are right, children have a reputation for stretching the truth,
    fibbing and not reading the whole story right.
    
    All I know is what the neighbors have told me, I don't know what is
    truth and which is not.  But when the mother asked her child, "why
    didn't you tell me about this before?"  The child answered, "Cause they
    told me not to tell."
    
    I don't mean to offend anyone and I don't mean to get anyone angry, I'm
    just relaying what I've been told and what my feelings are on the
    subject I've been told.
    
    

    
    As a school committee member I am often asked to explain why we teach
    what some feel are extremisms in this area. There are reasons. First
    let me say that no one wants to invade your privacy. we teach kids that
    cigarettes and alcohol are drugs because they are. We teach them that 
    they can be harmful because they can be. Sometimes, in order to get a
    message across about somethings that are really wrong, we need to go to
    extremes. Also kids at young ages (under 10) take simplisitc messages
    we give them and apply them to everything. They are told that
    cigarettes are a drug and drugs are bad. They are also probably told
    that cigarettes are legal and people who smoke are not criminals. But
    they retain that first simple message and that's what mommy and daddy
    hear. Some will ask why do we teach them this stuff so young. Because
    if we don't we lose too many of them. The simple fact is that our kids
    are so sophisticated at age 12 or 13 that the message is lost on them.
    Both educational and law enforcement studies show that if we teach kids
    the facts, the straight facts, about drugs at grade 4 or 5 they listen
    and fewer experiment with drugs later in life. It's at this age that
    kids as groups begin to formulate the opinions that drive peer pressure
    through their teen years. If we don't get them here we lose too many of
    them later.
    

I would have a real problem with my child being given such messages at 
school.  For one thing, lumping alcohol and cigarettes in with illegal 
drugs is not accurately portraying the drug scene.

Consider:  A child is told that drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) are
harmful, then comes home and finds Dad or Mom drinking a cocktail.  Child
then reasons, well, it must not be too harmful if Mom and Dad do it and
THEY don't seem to suffer any consequences.  Next day the child is offered
some pills on the playground, and tries them because Mom and Dad do drugs
and drugs don't hurt THEM.

Like it or not, there is a BIG difference, a HUGE difference, a MONUMENTAL 
difference between shooting heroin and having a cocktail before dinner.  I 
intend to teach my child just that, and if the schools teach him 
differently, then I'll tell him that his teacher is wrong, wrong, wrong.

As far as the children being told not to tell Mom and Dad, I would verify 
that such a statement was actually made, and if it was, I would muster 
support among other parents, then go directly to the school board without 
passing GO or collecting $200.

There is absolutely no excuse for such behavior on the part of a public 
school system.

Steve

> Like it or not, there is a BIG difference, a HUGE difference, a MONUMENTAL 
> difference between shooting heroin and having a cocktail before dinner. 

Yep.  One's illegal, the other's legal.

> I intend to teach my child just that, and if the schools teach him 
> differently, then I'll tell him that his teacher is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Better the schools should teach our children about how the important thing
isn't the intrinsic values or merits of the situation, but what the law
says?

If we got a generation educated to realize that heroin, and alcohol, and
cocaine, and tobacco, and marijuana, ... are *all* drugs, then maybe there'd
be a chance for some sensible public policy development, rather than the
irrationality we're submerged in today.

	-Neil

re: .16 
 
>For one thing, lumping alcohol and cigarettes in with illegal drugs is not 
>accurately portraying the drug scene. 
 
Steve, if I understand you, I disagree with you.  Today, a youngster is 
far more likely to become an alcholic than to be addicted to cocaine.  A 
teenager is more likely to die in an alcohol related auto accident than to 
die of from overdose of heroin.  To substitute some euphemism for "drug" in 
the statement "Alcohol abuse is the most common form of drug abuse among 
young people" does not change the truth of that statement. 
 
I submit that a far, far more likely scenario is: 
 
     A child observes Dad or Mom drinking a cocktail.  Child looks in a
     magazine and sees ads for whiskey.  Child watches a sports event on TV,
     during which s/he sees a beer commmercial every five minutes.  Child
     then reasons, well, it must not be too harmful if Mom and Dad do it, and
     THEY don't seem to suffer any consequences, and it must be OK  because
     it's advertised in magazines and on TV.  Next day child is  offered a
     rum and cola on the playground and tries it because Mom and Dad drink
     alcohol and alcohol doesn't hurt THEM.  After all, it's not  like it's
     a DRUG. 

As a parent, I would much rather that my children understand that alcohol and
nicotine ARE drugs, and then help them deal with the ambiguities 
and admit that some of our attitudes toward drugs are irrational and that 
some of our drug laws are based on economics more than logic.  
 
re: .14  
  
>    I don't mean to offend anyone and I don't mean to get anyone angry, I'm
>    just relaying what I've been told and what my feelings are on the   
>    subject I've been told.   
  
       IMO, you didn't state your opinion in a way the would either offend
any reasonable person, or get them angry.  But I DO suggest that you talk
with school officials YOURSELF before drawing conclusions that they will tell
your children `this is the way it is, and if you do it, you're evil and
you're going to die', or that they're "taking it a little too far".
ESPECIALLY, since you know something about the school already, and (I assume)
you would like your daughter to go there.  Then, you can make a decision that
you don't want your daughter to go to that school, or you can relay your
concerns about the program and perhaps get them to alter it, or you may find
out that there's nothing to worry about. 
 
Clay  

    I am NOT trying to make light of this, but just about since AJ was able
    to talk and reason, we buy our wine in our regular supemarket as part
    of our regular weekly shopping purely for convienience.
    
    I realized one day that as I was putting a bottle of wine into the
    cart, he asked me if that was "Daddy juice"?  So I realized he equated
    the wine, (and beer) as something that is special for daddy and mom.
    
    lyn

>================================================================================
>Note 1184.17             Smoking and anti-drug messages                 17 of 17
>MOIRA::FAIMAN "light upon the figured leaf"          18 lines  30-OCT-1991 08:19
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Like it or not, there is a BIG difference, a HUGE difference, a MONUMENTAL 
>> difference between shooting heroin and having a cocktail before dinner. 
>
>Yep.  One's illegal, the other's legal.

That's a large part of what I meant.  You go to jail for one, but not for
the other.

The other thing is that (at least the way I understand it), heroin is
addictive period.  There are no "social" heroin shooters. However, I have
drunk alcohol in small amounts all my adult life; so has my wife, and so
did my parents, and so have most of my friends.  It has never harmed any of
us in any way (unless it's killed a few brain cells (^;. After all, aspirin
is also a drug and is extremely harmful if taken in large amounts. Equating
it (or a glass of wine at dinner) with heroin is a very misleading message.

>> I intend to teach my child just that, and if the schools teach him 
>> differently, then I'll tell him that his teacher is wrong, wrong, wrong.
>
>Better the schools should teach our children about how the important thing
>isn't the intrinsic values or merits of the situation, but what the law
>says?

The schools can teach my child about alcoholism.  I have no problem with 
that.  But telling him that all alcohol is bad is a different thing 
entirely.  I have a real problem with a public school telling my child that 
his mother and father are "druggies".  And THEN telling the child not to 
tell his parents that they told him that!  Unbelievable!

Incidentally, I do plan to teach my child that smoking is  harmful and 
foolish and that he shouldn't start it.  But I'll also teach him that other 
people have a perfect right to do it, and that doesn't make them bad 
people.  They've just made different choices.

>If we got a generation educated to realize that heroin, and alcohol, and
>cocaine, and tobacco, and marijuana, ... are *all* drugs, then maybe there'd
>be a chance for some sensible public policy development, rather than the
>irrationality we're submerged in today.

...and aspirin, and cough syrup, and laxatives, and penicillin, and 
Alka-Seltzer, and Dristan, and ...

    
    Please find me the "good side" of alcohol and tobacco that I can find
    in cough syrup, etc. 
    
    
    Most course curriculum that teaches alcohol and tobacco as harmful also 
    teach that prescription drugs are harmful unless directions are
    carefully followed and certain symptoms exist to warrant their use. 
    
    Alcohol is a drug. It can be harmful if abused. Children given this
    message will often apply simple logic and say someone who drinks is 
    using drugs. It takes some time and wisdom to know the difference
    between moderation in the use of a legal substance and what constitutes
    an addiction. I'ld rather catch some small amount of grief from my kids
    now then deal with the potential grief down the road when they, even
    accidentally, choose to abuse even a legal substance.
     

   > Please find me the "good side" of alcohol and tobacco that I can find
   > in cough syrup, etc. 
    
    We don't smoke, so I don't really have an answer for the tobacco part
    of your question.  To me, there is no good side.  But to someone else,
    the good side of tobacco is enjoyment.  When my wife smoked, that was
    her reason.
    
    As far as the good side of alcohol, the good side is the same as for
    other things that taste good.  The same as a glass of ice cold lemonade
    on a hot day, or a steaming cup of cocoa on a cold day.  It's
    enjoyable.
    
    
   > Most course curriculum that teaches alcohol and tobacco as harmful also 
   > teach that prescription drugs are harmful unless directions are
   > carefully followed and certain symptoms exist to warrant their use. 
    
    
   > Alcohol is a drug. It can be harmful if abused.
    
    I certainly have no problem with my child being told that alcohol is
    harmful when abused.  It is.
    
   > Children given this
   > message will often apply simple logic and say someone who drinks is 
   > using drugs. It takes some time and wisdom to know the difference
   > between moderation in the use of a legal substance and what constitutes
   > an addiction. I'ld rather catch some small amount of grief from my kids
   > now then deal with the potential grief down the road when they, even
   > accidentally, choose to abuse even a legal substance.
    
    Children given this message can be easily told that using alcohol
    doesn't equate to abusing it, and that grownups who use it in moderation
    aren't the same as the drug addicts that he sees on the ads on TV.
    
    But my understanding of the base note (oh so long ago) was that the
    message you've described was NOT the message given.  Perhaps I
    misunderstood, in which case I'm just wasting disk space.
    
    BTW, just a thought.  Perhaps it was different for you, but when I was
    growing up the kids who went absolutely wild as teenagers were by and
    large the ones whose parents went to the (IMHO) extreme in limiting
    their kids.  The ones whose parents said "You will not smoke" were the
    ones behind the school lighting up after lunch.  The ones whose parents
    said "All drinking is wrong" were the ones who couldn't wait to try
    this forbidden stuff as soon as they got the chance.  The ones whose
    parents enforced ridiculous curfews were the ones who had sex the first
    chance they got.  Now, lest you think I'm making a gross
    generalization, I admit that not EVERY child whose parents were extreme in
    their rule-making went bad, nor was EVERY child whose parents were more
    tolerant good.  But it was often the case.
    
    We had alcohol in the house as long as I can remember.  It was no big
    deal.  To this day I have never seen my parents drunk, or even tipsy so
    I could tell it.  The alcohol was just no big deal.  I didn't even
    taste a drop of it till I was a sophomore in college.
    
    But all this is beside the point.  I'm describing some of my own values
    here, and that isn't the point.  The point is that the public schools
    have no business telling my child that those values are wrong.
    
    Steve
     

    RE .-1	
    
    I tend to agree with you on most of your points...my family raised
    me with the do's and don'ts but realistically...they told me about
    the bad stuff, but they still drank and smoked and I made my own
    decisions....
    
    On the other hand, my husband's family was very very
    strict and you would go to hell if you drank, etc.  The first
    chance my husband got he was out 'drinking' with his buddies in
    high school...he never smoked or did drugs though...and just the 
    all around outcast of his family...the best thing he did was go 
    into the military for 9 years to get it out of his system and 
    develop his own morals around alcohol, etc.
    
    Don't mean to turn this into 'my family against your family' rathole
    just that it should be the parents who teach kids values around
    'drugs' and not the school.  Unfortunately, so many parents just
    leave it to the school because I don't think they know all the
    facts themselves...other than it is bad for them and what kind of
    a reason is that for a teenager not to do something ;^)
    
    I think this is one of those times when you either agree or
    disagree and no one will change each other's mind to their point
    of view...                   

    It's not that values should be taught in the schools exactly, but
    rather the facts of the effects of drugs, and that includes all
    drugs.
    
    Personally, if one is able to control their intake of a drug and
    not abuse, I see that as O.K.  They're really isn't a better druggie
    over another.
    
    I would suggest to teachers, which I will discuss this upcoming
    conference date, that they let children know resources should any
    drug effect their happiness, including that which is taken by parents
    or friends.
    
    Naturally, I'd rather my children not experiment with drugs, but
    I honestly can't condemn it, for I've done the same and to some
    extent still do.  As to how I explain to my children why, that's
    the harder part.  Because, almost in the same breath you don't want
    them to become disillusioned about its harmful effects.
    
    I guess it all boils down to choices.  What risks are worth taking.
     I think that's the lesson that's to be learned by our young ones.

    
    My point was that it appeared to me that the parent in the basenote
    took the child's comments at face value as EXACTLY what the teacher
    stated. This doesn't allow for the child's interpretation (and we all
    know that our kids manipulate the interpretation to suit their own
    needs sometimes) of what the teacher said. The teacher could have said
    at one point that alcohol was a drug. Then 20 minutes later when
    discussing marijuana said all drugs are bad. Child then says to
    him/herself - alcohol is bad. Most kids, even older kids, are still
    confused by the mixed messages we send them. It has clearly been shown
    that the more simplistic and straight forward the message the more its
    apt to sink in. That's not true for all of them but it is for most.
    
    

    > My point was that it appeared to me that the parent in the basenote
    > took the child's comments at face value as EXACTLY what the teacher
    > stated. This doesn't allow for the child's interpretation (and we all
    > know that our kids manipulate the interpretation to suit their own
    > needs sometimes) of what the teacher said. The teacher could have said
    > at one point that alcohol was a drug. Then 20 minutes later when
    > discussing marijuana said all drugs are bad. Child then says to
    > him/herself - alcohol is bad. Most kids, even older kids, are still
    > confused by the mixed messages we send them. It has clearly been shown
    > that the more simplistic and straight forward the message the more its
    > apt to sink in. That's not true for all of them but it is for most.
    
    I agree completely.  I think the first thing the parent needs to do is
    verify that what the child understood was actually what was said.
    
    You mentioned that the teacher might have said all drugs are bad.  In
    the interest of simplification, I can understand an adult saying
    something like that, but children take things so literally that it's
    important to choose your words carefully.  I've talked to a couple of
    parents who said that after hearing a similar statement their children
    became hysterical at the mention of taking a prescription medicine,
    thinking that something awful would happen to them.  I think we need to
    tell our children like it is, and the statement that all drugs are bad
    is simply untrue.  SOME drugs are bad, and virtually every drug is bad
    if abused.
    
    I'm not sure we're in as much disagreement as I once thought, but we've
    probably beaten this horse to death.  I understand better now what you
    were saying, and I hope you understand the reasons I feel the way I do.
    
    Steve

     Note that there may be an even more simple (and IMO more likely)
explanation for the incident described in the base note.

     In the base note, the daughter called the noter's husband a "druggie"
because he smokes.  It's possible that the teacher simply said "Nicotine is
a drug," and the child picked up the "druggie" jargon from playground and
schoolbus conversations, and not from the teacher at all.

     Clay