Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I can hardly believe this idea is an earnest suggestion/real product.
    
    Snake Oil!
    
    Baby As Annoying Object!!
    
    Ever heard of earplugs?!!!
    
    Leslie

   Wow. Interesting issue....
   
   Presuming that this is a legitimate issue, and a real product - it
   sounds too unusual to be a story - I'm not sure just what it is
   supposed to accomplish.  I mean, if someone is going to be
   negatively affected by a baby that won't stop crying, will changing
   the volume of the crying make any significant difference?

   Doesn't appear that it would have any lasting affect on the child -
   its only supposed to work with the parent is holding the child,
   so... probably wouldn't be any worse than any of the medical
   monitoring gear that some of our kids have had to wear from time to
   time (both my girls had to be hooked up to apnea monitors during
   the first few months of their lives... doesn't seem to have
   affected them at all...)

   Admittedly, constant make-yourself-red-in-the-face crying by a baby
   is, to me anyway, one of the most heart-wrenching experiences to
   live through for a parent, but ... well, if I read the description
   properly, this won't change anything for the child - only what the
   parent hears, right?   I don't know, doesn't seem to be adding that
   much value, in my opinion.  
   
   You can count me out as a possible consumer of that product.
   
   - Tom
   
   

    > Homicide is the number one cause of infant injury death....  Murder of 
    > babies is more frequent than death by automobile accident, suffocation, 
    > fire, poisoning or drowning....  One out of twelve reported SIDS deaths
    > ...was actually a homicide.
    
    I don't know that a parent who's that close to the edge is going to
    feel that 50% (or whatever) reduced decibels and still having to hold,
    walk, rock, etc. is an attractive option or even something that they're
    going to *think of using* in the heat of the moment. 

    > Muffler is designed to work only when the parent is holding the baby
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Does this mean it can't be "affixed" unless the parent is holding it
    on, or that it won't "muffle" if the baby isn't being held, or that the
    manufacturer hopes everyone out in parentingland has the common sense
    not to strap it on and walk away?
    
    Leslie

    
    When my son's colic was at its peak, in addition to the ear-wrenching
    cry, he would flail and kick up a storm.  I can imagine no way, short
    of strong-arm physical restraint, that I would have been able to place
    the mouthpiece over his mouth, keep it there, and feel comfortable
    doing so. 
    
    Anyways, I personally wouldn't consider using said device and I know
    all too well how horrible colic can be.   The goal should be to stop
    the crying, not merely "muffle" it!   With respect to infant homicide,
    the goal should be to educate and provide relief for the parent(s),
    not merely "muffle" the crying.
    
    Carol
    
    

    Is this actually on the market and selling now?
    My first reaction is definitely a negative one, and one of confusion.
    What is the marketing aimed at, desperate people?
    
    hmmm...
    
    Monica

    Add me to the list of "ban the d__n thing before it becomes a problem!"
    
    I'm all for convienience things for parents but this one sounds like
    it's in the category with shackles!  What's the next thing, a 12 hour
    sedative so the PARENT can get a good night's sleep?!?!?
    
    Lyn

Yes, this is actually on the market.

As for desparate parents, I think most parents have gone a little crazy
in the first weeks of a baby's birth.  The parents get very little sleep,
and this causes them to be irritable.  In the meantime, many babies cry
all evening long, comforted by nothing, for several weeks, even months
continuously.  This cry is, in my opinion, designed by nature to be 
particularly nerve-wracking, so it gets the parent's attention.
This, combined with the lack of sleep, can make even wonderful parents think 
murderous thoughts (especially in the middle of the night, after you have
given all you have to give!).

Am I contemplating using the muffler for our next child?  No.  The thought
bothers me.  I *am* contemplating using babysitters a whole lot in those
early days, though!  :-)

    Carol

    Re: .7 Carol
    
    I can relate to the "murderous thoughts" you mentioned.  I remember
    getting up in the middle of the night with my son and having some
    pretty scary thoughts.  He didn't even have colic, but he could cry
    louder than most babies, and I have a far lower tolerance for loud
    noises than most people.  I was frightened by what I was thinking of
    doing to him!
    
    Maybe the muffler could have kept his cries in the "tolerable" range,
    assuming I swaddled him and he didn't get any more hysterical than he
    already was (hard to imagine!).
    
    Earplugs might have beenean alternative, but I always worried about
    hearing other noises in the night that needed attending to like my
    daughter or a burgler.
    
    Carter  

    Sorry, in .1 I didn't mean wearing earplugs all night (or all day,
    either); just for when you're carrying that colicky baby whose screams 
    vibrate your eyeballs!  I agree with Carol that the screams are pitched
    *just so* precisely to attract maximum attention.  Once you (generic
    "you") are fully engaged in giving that attention, you defintely do not 
    appreciate having your eyeballs rattled, but baby-muffling IMO is not the 
    answer.  Alter the reception, not the emission.  Wad up some tissue or 
    use store-bought earplugs, and remind yourself that these screams 
    come with the territory!  (And that this too shall pass.)
    
    L.W. 

    
    re: .7
    
    "Murderous thoughts"????   I definitely don't recall any.   I do 
    vividly remember thinking (and actually discussing with my husband) 
    giving our son up for adoption.
    
    But, on the subject of murderous thoughs, if I were marketing the 
    product described in the basenote, I would leave out the sensational 
    references to infant homicide.   I think it leaves a sick feeling in 
    _most_ people's stomaches which will keep them from ever even 
    considering use of this product.   I think parents' and doctors'
    evaluations of the product would be a much better selling point.
    
    IMHO,
    Carol

My first reaction was pretty shocked but then I had time to read the responses
and think about it.

My older boy had TERRIBLE colic and the second one also.  I remember one stretch
where he cried for 14 hours straight before I dumped him at the hospital.  I
was alone (husband on business trip), exhausted, sick myself, and felt like
shaking him until he SHUT UP!  This is 13 years ago and I can still remember the
ferocity of my emotions.  I didn't do it but I think there are people who do do
this.

There was a (fiction) movie made years ago about the Nazi's studying stress 
effects on a couple and they showed a scene with a baby born with a congenital 
defect where the baby couldn't stop crying.  they put a women in to comfort the 
child and, after x hours, the women finally...

I think of the 10 hour air trip I took to the U.S. where my son SCREAMED the 
entire way.  Maybe *I* wasn't ready to murder him but I think a lot of people
on that plane were ready to.

In my child development books, it says "you should not condemn the mother who
locks her child in the bedroom and puts away the key, because it may have taken
every last bit of rational courage she had left to do this."

I wouldn't use such a device on my child but I don't know the circumstances of 
every parent out there.  It also seems important to me as to how this is
being marketed and used.  If a doctor, in a case with a baby who is driving
a parent mad recommends trying the device, I'd say that it's between the parent
and the doctor.  I can imagine situations such as this. 

Just my 2 centimes :-)

ccb

Some of the responses here seem awfully judgmental.

Personally, I find the suggested device utterly unappealing.  I think it's
because the symbolic imagery of pressing something over a baby's face to
cut the noise is just too graphic.  Then again, we never had a big problem
with screaming.

But I have certainly read comments from other parents, here and in other 
notefiles, which say that "murderous impulses" is *not* sensationalitic
or exaggerated.  Personally, I wonder whether a parent who has been driven
to such a thing in the first place would really be able to use it calmly
and as designed ... I wonder whether it could really work ... but if it
*could* enable a desparate parent to continue holding and comforting an
infant, instead of locking it in the nursery because that's the only way
of not doing something drasdtic...

(And to be perfectly honest, my gut reaction to sitting a fussy child in
front of a television isn't really very different from my gut reaction to
muffling a colicky baby's cries.)

	-Neil

    
    The whole idea of this device irks me in major ways. Babies
    are built to cry ;-( I think. I think someone should spend the 
    time educating parents to deal with/fix/stop/accept the crying,
    instead of muffling it. To me, a crying baby is a crying baby,
    no matter how loud. I can almost see this big breakthrough
    in genetic engineering in year 2010 - a cry-less baby, like
    a seedless watermelon...
    
    
    
    Eva
     

    On the one hand, I felt dreadfully sad when I read the base note
    about the muffler.  At the same time, I can remember putting a
    screaming James in his crib, locking up the house, and going for a
    walk around the block (husband was working 90-hour days, nobody was
    around to spell me, you get the picture.).  Would I use a muffler?
    I doubt it.  Would I judge anyone who uses it?  Probably not; I'm
    a lousy judge anyway, because I can ususally see both sides of the
    story! :-).  But like a lot of people, I've been faced with kids who
    whine/fuss/scream/etc. all day and part of the night, and there have
    been times when it would have been nice to put either them or me in a
    soundprooof room!
    
    I would be *very* interested in seeing what the American Academy
    of Pediatrics and its overseas counterparts think of this device.
    I'm just concerned that people who buy it would not use it for the
    intended purpose and that the potential for misuse and abuse exists.
    
    I also wish we could spend some of the bazillions that went into
    developing this device on prenatal care, parent education, etc.,
    so that the thing wasn't needed at all.  My $.02, no flames please.

I'll have 3 - for my 3, 7 and 10 year olds please so I won't have to tell
them to put a sock in it!

Given that I went through the horrors of a colicky baby for 3 months and
was nearly at my wits end trying to cope, I can see where such a product
might have an awful lot of appeal and might therefore be considered by
desparate parents, especially those who've come close to abusing a baby.

But, I think technically, it cannot be effective enough to do what it hopes
to.  Even if you reduce the volume by say 50% (which I think would be high)
you still are holding an inconsoleable, crying baby.  All one would do with
such a device is take the edge off the crying and give a parent a few minutes
more patience with the baby ... but when a colicky baby goes on and on
crying, the only thing that will help you is DISTANCE.  There were many
evenings when I spent time in the basement, with baby on the second floor!

Personally, I do not like the idea of a baffle valve ... It sounds dangerous
apart from the fact I don't see a need.  Moreover, it sounds like there
would be a high risk of breathing a poor air mixture.

On a scale of 1-10 for wishful thinking : 10
                   for effectiveness    :  2
                   for safety           :  2
                   value for money      :-10
                   overall              :  0


If the person for whom the note was entered is having a problem with a
colicky baby, then get real help and guidance from Doctors, Nurses and
the like ... if the baby is colicky and yet the Doctor says he cannot
do anything for baby ... tell him how YOU are and that YOU need help to
cope.  There is lots of help out there from all kinds of people without
having to waste good money on doubtful contraptions like this.

Believe me though, I can sympathise with the hope that something like
this might bring relief ...

Stuart

    I have to say that I weould have to be very desperate to resort to this 
    thing. I remember when my daughter cried alot and very loud after we
    brought her home. But I would just put a pillow over my ears and hum to
    drown out the sound!! I can't see what good this product would do, I
    mean after all it doesn't stop the crying it just muffles it! There are
    alot of non-costly measures one could take to handle his problem. I
    would rather have a few sleepless nights, rather than resort to this.
    
    Thumbs down for this product for me.
                                                                         
    Sandy 

re: .2

> Doesn't appear that it would have any lasting affect on the child

> this won't change anything for the child - only what the parent hears,
> right?

> I don't know, doesn't seem to be adding that much value, in my opinion.

Actually, with very similar reasoning, I arrived at a different conclusion. 
It seems to me that it has no effect on the baby.  The baffle may restrict
the airflow somewhat, requiring slightly more effort to cry, but that would
be relatively minor.  And if it can make the parent's situation less
unbearable, then why not?  I don't think the analogies to shackles are fair. 
Shackles restrict the baby's movement.  This device doesn't restrict the
baby's ability to cry.

However, the passion expressed in some of the previous notes is relevant
info.  A potential part of the market will have absolutely nothing to do with
this device, because of its symbolic impact. 

re: .10 

>    But, on the subject of murderous thoughs, if I were marketing the
> product described in the basenote, I would leave out the sensational
> references to infant homicide.

I agree entirely.  I don't think anyone views themself as a potential infant
murderer.  All the studies in the world won't accomplish that -- it's the
"other guy" who does those things.  Nor are people who commit infanticide
rational consumers.  It seems to me that the right market is through
pediatricians, particularly those who deal with parents who are stressed out
in other ways.  It seems to me that they would be best able to gauge whether
or not the device in question is useful or desirable.

Clay   

    I don't have any desire to buy this product because it seems like it
    would only make the baby more uncomfortable and make it difficult to
    hug and kiss and give cuddles to the child.  
    
    I do want to agree with the noter who mentioned earplugs as an
    alternative to it though.  I've used earplugs ever since I discovered
    them and find that although I can still hear the baby crying and people
    talking and sounds in the house... they do take the edge off the volume
    so when I'm trying to console a sick or fussy baby I (as mentioned
    earlier "my eyeballs don't rattle").  I find I have more patience and am
    less likely to shake a child (having a temper tantrum) when I just put
    the earplugs in... and after the tantrum is finished... talk to the child.
    
    I recommend earplugs for people like me who feel frustrated after
    either a long screaming session or in situations where you are tired
    and irritable yourself.  My patience and 
    willingness to sooth, hold and work to find a solution is greater with
    the lower volume.  I still hear the crying loudly enough...no earplugs
    I've seen can muffle cries next to your ear as you hold and rock a
    child. 
    
    Marcelle
    

With the mentions of shaking children, I want to remind folks (or let folks
know who might not already) that shaking a child, particularly shaking an
infant, can cause permanent brain damage by banging the brain inside the
skull.

Leaving a child alone in a safe place (crib, playpen) is a much better way
to handle things, although it may not be the first thing that comes to mind
at such a time.

       Carol

    Well, I, too, would have no interest in buying such a product, but I can
    think of a situation where it might be useful, and earplugs wouldn't
    be as feasible.  That's in a multi-family building, with not-so-great
    soundproofing between units.  The "muffler" could help reduce the
    parent's stress level by making it less likely that the baby's crying
    would keep the neighbors awake all night.  This would be along the
    same lines as using headphones when playing loud music late at night, out
    of consideration for the neighbors.  (I know, it's a *very* rough analogy!)

						cheryl

    Airplanes?  I vote for mufflers on airplanes.  Any regular air traveler
    could tell you several horror stories.  The baby is usually in
    inconsolable pain from the air pressure changes, and everyone else is a
    "captive" audience.  I think I suffered permanent hearing loss from the
    time twins with colic were across the aisle from me.
    
    The most horrified air traveler I've seen was a grandmotherly looking
    woman who, as the plane was being seated, was begging the flight
    attendant to move her seat assignment away from a baby because "I just
    spent two weeks taking care of my new grandchild, and I just can't take
    any more crying!"  She looked like she meant it, too!
    
    Carter

                    <<< Note 1144.10 by CNTROL::STOLICNY >>>
                -< murderous thoughts is really stretching it >-

    
>>    "Murderous thoughts"????   I definitely don't recall any.   I do 
>>    vividly remember thinking (and actually discussing with my husband) 
>>    giving our son up for adoption.

Actually, I had the murderous thoughts, and I tried to figure out a way
to disown my daughter without having to leave my husband.  My kiddo 
cried CONSTANTLY and only slept for 20 minutes at a time during the day.

Liz

    My SO is a neonatal intensive care nurse.  I described the muffler to
    her, and she came up with a benefit to the baby.  She says that new
    research shows that "holding" is vital for infant development.  This
    has been brought into focus by the tens of thousands of "cocaine
    babies" being born each year who must stay in the hospital nursery for
    extended periods before being placed in foster homes or returned to
    their parents.
    
    Even though they cry hysterically almost all the time, they "grow" much
    better when held for extended periods.  This is good for the baby, but
    hard on the "holder."  In fact, it is getting harder and harder to find
    foster homes for cocaine babies.  Volunteers are even being asked to
    come into the hospitals just to hold babies.
    
    If the muffler could reduce the amount of time that a baby is left
    alone "to cry it out" it could promote the growth of colicky infants as
    well as cocaine babies.
    
    Carter

    re the last reply:  I remember reading something about the time AJ was
    born that babies that are left to "cry it out", will grow up and
    distance themselves from whomever it was that let that happen. 
    (presumably the parent).  The article went on to mention that this
    included those babies who were left to cry themselves to sleep.
    I'm guessing this meant if it happened on a recuring or regular
    basis. 
    
    A friend of mine, a nurse in fact, said she had a horribly colicy baby
    and used to take her shower and stand under the water until it ran
    COLD, just so she didn't have to listen to the baby for a few minutes!
    I've met her son, and he's certainly not "distant" from her.
    
    I am also aware of the volunteer rocker's at hospitals, it truly does
    benefit the babies.  My cousin is a nursing supervisor at Boston City
    Hospital and has had first hand experience with the program, and many
    of the babies born with drug or alcohol addiction.
    
    Rocking certainly would outweigh the muffler!
    
    What always seemed to "get to" me was when he cried so hard that he
    would have to stop and catch his breath, NOT the Noise!  God this 
    broke my heart!

    The airplane scenario is the only one so far that seems to me a valid
    situation for using the muffler.  Paper-thin apartment walls?  The
    baby's neighbor rented it as is, with the perfectly reasonable
    possibility that a baby might move in next door.
    
    Leslie

    I don't know that I'd use it regularly, but I sure can see WHY you would!! 
    After 2 colicy babies, the non-stop ear piercing scream is enough to
    make you try ANYTHING at least once!!!  As we'd always said - while we
    don't condone it, having a colicy baby can certainly make you
    UNDERSTAND child abuse!  
    
    Anyway, I think it might be helpful.  I could never bring myself to be
    totally out of earshot of that screaming infant because of the many
    many times they would take a long scream not followed by a deep breath. 
    At least if you can hear them scream, you know they're breathing. 
    Depending on how much it muffled, it might actually save a lot of
    children's lives!  I've always thought, if they could just change the
    pitch ...!
    
    

>    The airplane scenario is the only one so far that seems to me a valid
>    situation for using the muffler.  Paper-thin apartment walls?  The
>    baby's neighbor rented it as is, with the perfectly reasonable
>    possibility that a baby might move in next door.
>

Couldn't the same apply for airplanes?  (You bought the seat with a perfectly
reasonable possibility that a baby might sit next to you)

The thought of it sounds so heartless, but there are times when, if I had one
close by, I just might have tried it!

Kristen

    Kristen, yes, the same set of expectations could apply in airplanes,
    and I know *I* would never use the muffler.  I was trying to find a
    situation where earplugs would not be readily available and there was a
    really captive audience--so I can see where (other) people might use one 
    in a "tin can at 30,000 feet".  As the mom I would be sympathetic to
    other passengers' discomfort, and I would do everything short of "the
    muffler" to assuage the cries, but I would *not* be apologetic about
    it.  No question but that a baby's cries can drive [generic] you batsh!t 
    in very short order.  But a baby is a natural "occurrence", as are its
    cries.
    
    Leslie 

    Re: .28 Leslie
    
    << But a baby is a natural "occurrence" as are its cries. >>
    
    Why subject yourself and others to pain in the ears if a safe,
    harmless, and reasonably comfortable solution (for both you and the baby)
    exists?
    
    It seems, from the description in .0, that the muffler just "intercepts"
    the sound of the cry as it leaves the baby's mouth.  From what I
    understand, babies are "obligatory nose breathers" which would indicate
    that the muffler wouldn't interfere with half of the baby's breathing
    cycle, the inhale cycle.  On the exhale cycle, the baby would be using
    its relatively strong "stomach" muscles.
    
    Would a soft mouthpiece covering only the baby's mouth, not the nose or
    face, cause distress to the baby?  According to my SO, the neonatal
    nurse, when babies cry, they become "disorganized," a technical term
    meaning that the babies immature nervous system and conciousness is not
    able to integrate the stimulation it is receiving.
    
    Swaddling is a well accepted means of restraining a colicky infant
    which helps them deal with their disorganization by reducing the
    stimulous from their flailing limbs.   The level of restraint needed to
    hold and use the muffler doesn't seem to be a significant increase in
    restraint to me.
    
    Infants, I recollect, have also been shown to react to the stress of
    their parents.  If the muffler allows the parent to hold the infant
    longer at a lower level of stress, with no pain or discomfort to the
    infant other then the sensation of something soft around their mouth
    and some minor incremental restraint, what's the problem?
    
    I will grant that the mental image of the muffler, on an emotional
    level, seems harmful or neglectful of the baby.  But rationally, I
    can't prove it.
    
    Carter 

<    understand, babies are "obligatory nose breathers" which would indicate

When babies get colds, they can't breathe through their nose any more than
I can.

       Carol

    > Why subject yourself and others to pain in the ears if a 
    > safe, harmless, and reasonably comfortable [muffler] (for both you and 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^            ^^^
    > the baby) exists?
      ^^^^^^^^
    
    I don't see where that's been established.  Furthermore, why subject 
    yourself and others to pain in the ears when safe, harmless, and 
    reasonably comfortable EARPLUGS exist?  As I've said before, modify the
    *receptor*, not the emittor.  We're not talking about a neighborhood
    "boom car" here.
    
    > Would a soft mouthpiece covering only the baby's mouth, not the nose or
    > face, cause distress to the baby?
    > If the muffler allows the parent to hold the infant longer at a lower 
    > level of stress, with no pain or discomfort to the infant other then 
    > the sensation of something soft around their mouth and some minor 
    > incremental restraint, what's the problem?
    
    You are obviously not speaking about a child like mine, who was from
    the start extremely annoyed by a pacifier.  Until she teethed she had
    no use for anything in, on or around her mouth unless it was (or
    dispensed) food.  She'd whip her face around and cry *harder* if the
    use of a pacifier was attempted!
    
    > when babies cry, they become "disorganized," a technical term
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    BAHahahahaha!  Neonatal-nurse-eze, maybe (jargon).
    
    > Swaddling is a well accepted means of restraining a colicky infant
    
    No matter how "well accepted", nor for how many millennia, IMO this is
    a poor substitution for *holding* the infant.  It ranks right up there
    IMO with many maternity nurses' propensity toward covering up the babies'
    hands ("so they won't scratch themselves" -- or feel the world, god
    forbid) and feeding them sugar-water when the mom is trying to establish
    nursing.  But I digress, so I'll end the rebuttal here.
    
    Leslie

    
    re. .29
    
    I would take advice from nurses as far as baby care is concerned,
    ie. bathing and diapering, etc. But, I would not take their
    advice on parenting, especially if they don't have any kids
    themselves. Knowing how to take care of infants is different from
    knowing how to raise kids. Handling a crying baby is a parenting
    skill, not a nursing skill, I'm sorry to say that. For me, 
    arguments from a nurse point of view on this topic does not count.
    
    Diapers are "unnatural" but they have been around for longest of
    time, in various forms. I would imagine that mufflers would be
    everyday items if people think it is sensible - it
    does not take a genius to invent it.
    

    I have had the murderous thoughts.  I have done the "Put the baby
    down before I throw it out the window" part.  I've been on the
    thin edge of abuse.  
    
    Yes, the volume does make a difference when you're feeling like
    that.  If you can even get the screams down to wailing and
    sobbing, it helps.  
    
    It would help a lot to think that the neighbors won't come beating
    on the door to tell you to "make that f***ing baby shut up before
    I come in and do it for you."  
    
    You can't use earplugs when you have to keep an ear out for
    another child in the house.  It's just too dangerous. 
    
    I would have used it if it had been available way back when. 
    
    --bonnie

    When I first saw this topic (part way through) I thought of something
    else. After Andrew was borning (in Sydney, Australia) where  several
    days in hospital for a delivery is the norm, and post-natal care and
    advice is far better than the U.S., we booked  into a Tressilian
    clinic in Sydney, where trained mothercraft nurses help new mothers
    (and fathers) get their infants into good sleeping/feeding patterns.
    (Andrew was sleeping through the night, at four weeks of age...) One
    thing they showed is is that young infants like being kept tightly held
    when sleeping. The cribs they used were actually large wicker baskets,
    and when putting the infant to bed, they showed how to wrap the blanket
    around the child in such a way, that they didn't move in their sleep,
    which would usually wake them. There were a few caveats about how to do
    it properly, which my wife probably remembers better than I, but it
    certainly seemed to work... (aside, and the nursery there was run by a
    deliteful old nurse in her 60's or so, who could walk into a room full
    of crying babies, and say "what's all this then, and suddenly they
    would all go quiet...  :-))
    
    q