Conference moira::parenting_v3

    This may seem weird but my friends daughter turned 10 in March.  She's
    5' 3" tall, wears a 34B bra and has had two menstrual cycles.
    
    Lori B.

    My son's godparents have one who just turned 11, and according to her
    mother "we've been living with PMS for 6 months now", she's convinced
    none of the family will survive until her first cycle hits.  This girl
    was up until a few months ago "rather chunky", but has suddenly grown
    quite a bit in height and slimmed down, and started looking much more
    like a woman than a girl.  This poor mother will have to endure this
    again in a couple years when he 9 year old matures.
    
    I always liked the questions they ask when you got for your first
    pregnancy visit, like "how old were you when you first had your
    period?"....I kind of answered um...dahhh I dunno, (how about can't
    remember!)  Good Lord that was 20 something years ago!!

My aunt who is a child phsycologist says it now starts at age 9 for girls
and has steadily been going down over the years. I believe it.  All the kids
in the scout troops I've been involved with really matured alot faster than
me and any of my friends did when we were kids.
-N

    RE: .3
    
    9 years old, my word that seems so young.  I didn't get my first period
    until I was 15.  My mom was beginning to wonder if there was something
    wrong, although her mom didn't get hers until she was 17.
    
    Kids grow up so fast these days.
    
    Kathy  

    
    
    I was 10 years old, only in the 5th grade.  It was terribly hard on me.
    The only place in the school that had a pad machine was in the
    teachers restroom.  Incidently students were not allowed to be in
    there.  Once in a while I would get caught in there restroom. I would
    get scolded and told not to use the teachers labratory.  I was too
    embaressed to say why I was there or go to the nurse.
    
    When my daughter goes to elementary school I hope they have a machine 
    accessible to her!  I not I'll suggest it!
    
    BTW- I was 10, Mom was 10, Grandma was 10
    
    Hoping Melissa will be 12!
    
    Kathy

Dirk started going through puberty between his 11th and 12th year.  He shot up
like a weed, he grew hair under his arms and in the crotch, and his voice went
through the change (makes singing classes really uncomfortable for boys :-).
His teachers thought that it had a lot to do with some school problems he had
at this time since he was going through the dreaded 5th year in the Vaudois
schools where they determine if a child can go on to secondary schooling or
must stop at 15.

He just turned 13 and is starting to get wispy wiskers on his face.  He is
taller than I am which means he is about 172 cm.  He takes a size 44 shoe
which is something like a size 11 (?) for you Americans.  My mother always
said your feet grow up first and then the rest of you catches up.  I hope so
but I'm always amazed to look at this former baby who has turned into a handsome
giant of a young man.  He was less than 5 lbs at birth!

Did any one else have school problems with their children at the onset of
puberty?

One more to go ...

Cheryl

    re: .3
    
    >     Kids grow up so fast these days.
     
    Yes and no. There is no doubt that this century has seen a drop in the
    age of puberty, due to better diet.  But I submit that the real problem
    is that kids *don't* grow up as fast as they did in the past.
    
    Up until the middle of the last century young people reached puberty,
    married, and and assumed recognized useful roles in society all at the
    same time (mid-teens).  Now they are physically mature earlier, but for
    all practical purposes exist in a weird suspended animation of false
    childhood until they're into their twenties.  Physically they are
    adults, but we treat them as children because there is no way to have
    them assume adult roles in the modern economy (hence the modern
    society) until they have at least finished college.
    
    It's unnatural, and extraodinarily frustrating. Since there seems to be
    absolutely nothing we can do about, we ignore it.
    
    Kit

re: -1
I've thought of that, too.  I wonder about how independent the new adults
were.  The women were age 15 or so when they wed, but what about the men?
Where did the new couple live?  On their own, or on the farm owned by one set
of parents?  There are varying degrees of independence.  Certainly, though,
life was much different for a 15 year old "girl" then than now.  If married,
they were allowed/expected_to_have sex, children, and work (on a farm, at a
factory, rearing children). 

For me, I judge "the change" to be when menstruation starts for girls, and 
don't know when it is for boys.  I was 12 when I started my period, but when
I was 12 I already was wearing a C cup bra.  I started shaving my legs in
4th grade, and my breasts started growing in 4th grade, I believe.
There was only one girl I knew of who started her period in 4th grade (she
was 10).  Most of the ones I knew started at 12.  I knew one girl who was
about 18.

How long does a boy's voice-changing period last?

     Carol

    Thanks for all the responses - keep 'em coming, this is fascinating. 
    My mom used to say that girls of Mediterranean descent started earlier
    than we WASP (or otherwise removed from the equator?) types.
    
    It certainly gives me pause to think that Alex could start developing
    in TWO AND A HALF YEARS FROM NOW!!!  She's only 6 1/2, in first grade!
    
    Well, I don't have any axe to grind about it, and Alex knows all about
    menstruation anyway.  I'm most apprehensive about the flood of demon
    hormones... both hers and those that her new bod start attracting!
    
    Leslie

    It's a common belief that in the "old days" people got married
    much younger than they do today.  It's not true.
    
    I read a scholarly article about this some years ago.  The author
    had collected marriage and birth records from the sixteen and
    seventeen hundreds in England, and analyzed them for the ages of
    bride and groom.  Most people got married at ages we would find
    perfectly acceptable--24 to 27!
    
    In fact, the age at marriage has been relatively constant for
    centuries--it wobbles up and down (down in the 1950's, up more
    recently), but there's no evidence for marriage at 15 being more
    common in the past than it is now (and there is some slight
    evidence that men have been marrying a bit younger now than in
    the pre-modern era due to greater ease in making a living).
    
    It is true that European countries had laws permitting marriage
    when young--a reflection of Roman civil law (12 for girls, 15 for
    boys), and it is true that noble families would on occasion arrange
    engagements at a young age.  But the statistics are clear that
    this was not the average behaviour.
    
    It is true that the age of first menstruation has dropped--this is
    due to improved nutrition (in particular, to increased fat in the
    diet).  There was an article in Scientific American on this, and I've
    mentioned it and its findings in this or a previous version of this
    conference before.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Generally, puberty is defined in females as the onset of menses.
    In males I would guess it's the voice-changing and the growth of
    body hair.  (Secondary sex characteristic in females.)  
    
    Onset of menses varies greatly from family to family.  I did hear
    that women of Mediterranean heritage tend to get their menses earlier
    than Celts like me, but I knew one Italian-American girl who didn't get
    her first period till she was 14.  My sisters and I were all around
    12 or 13 when we got our first periods.  My husband (who is of
    Scottish-Yankee descent) has been shaving every day since he was
    13 or 14 years old.  My brother's voice was still cracking when he
    was 17.  He is now 42 and is hard put to grow a mustache.  In other
    words, your mileage DEFINITELY will vary!
    
    I don't know if kids grow up earlier or not.  I think they mature
    physically a little earlier than we did, but when I think of "grown
    up," I tend to think of emotional/psychological maturity. I think
    the problem is that too many people confuse physical maturity with
    emotional maturity.  Your 11-year-old may wear a bra and have a period
    every month, but she's still only 11.  Likewise the 12-year-old boy
    who's shaving three times a week and is wearing his dad's sport coat.
    Outward appearances are deceiving.  This is why I think these preteen
    years are at least as tough as adolescence, maybe even tougher.  And
    no, it isn't at all unheard of for youngsters to start having school
    problems at about this time.  There's a good article in a back issue of
    "Parents" magazine about it.  If I can find it, I'll bring it in.
     
    
    

    How about 16?
    
    Does starting menses later mean later menopause?

    [I can't resist the temptation to be reply .13]
    
    .12 made me think that some people might rejoice at starting as late as
    16 (which wasn't outside of the reasonable time frame either, back "in
    my day"), and THAT reminded me of an exchange with my mom that I've
    always remembered fondly.
    
    When I was 14 and my periods were trying to settle down to some sort of
    average cycle, I discovered something wonderful and went rushing in to
    tell Mom.  "Since my periods are so short, over the course of a year
    I'll have an extra cycle--one more chance to get pregnant than anyone
    else has!"
    
    Mom:[one eyebrow arched][heavy sarcasm]"*Swell*"
    
    
    (sigh... naivete and maternal alarm...)
    
    Leslie
    
    P.S.  I *think* starting later usually does mean later menopause

I'd wanted to start a topic on this for a long time and thank the base noter
for bringing it up :-)

Regarding how long a boy's voice goes on changing.  As one noter mentioned, I'm
sure it's variable but in my one experience (Dirk's) it went on for about a
year with the cracking.  His voice now has seemed to stabilize at a timbre but
what is interesting is that HE hasn't seemed to adjust to his new voice quite
yet.  He is usually too loud and aggressive, a little bit squawky.  What a
thing to grow into!

He's also worried that he is so much bigger than all the others in his class
and that he's already getting whiskers.  What I think worries him the most is
the rather precocious girl down the street taking quite an interest in all 
these changes!

I also think there is more to it than just emotional and physical maturity
involved.  What we often mistake for emotional maturity in children is
precociousness brought about by the improved information sources available to
our children today.  They get bombarded with information which they assimilate
but are still too immature to apply to their personal lives.  When we hear 
them talking so knowledgeable about life and the opposite sex and war, etc. we
think that also means they understand it all, which I think is often not the 
case.  Of course that is only my opinion.

Amongst my relatives over here (mostly Germany and Austria), I have noticed that
they tend rather later to embark on their own lives.  My cousin lived at home
until he was 30 and asked his parent's permission before any major decision.  My
German nephews now approaching thirty have only recently moved out of the house.
Of course, university lasts quite a bit longer there which may account for 
much of the delay.  IMO, the emotional and intellectual maturity a young adult
needs to be able to cope in today's world is very much indeed and requires
a lot of time and experience to develop.

I really would like to hear more about what kind of problems the onset of 
puberty wrought in your children.  To me, it is both a fascinating and 
fightening time.  Are there some good books?

Cheryl

    This is a very interesting topic.  I started wearing a bra in 3rd
    grade (first in the class--how EMBARRASSING!) and started my period
    in 5th grade.  My parents still talk about my 5th grade year, all
    I did was cry and cry and cry....A teacher would look at me and
    off I ran to the bathroom to cry some more.  I remember lots of
    parent/teacher conferences that year and being asked over and over
    why I was crying to which I always replied, "I don't know", and
    I didn't.
    
    Another interesting tidbit--my full blooded sister didn't need a
    bra until the summer between her freshman and sophmore year of high
    school and didn't start her period until she was 17.  I always find
    it odd that there were the two extremes in one family.
    
    Physical maturity definitely did not signal emotional maturity in
    my case, however I did begin to notice boys quite a bit sooner than
    my friends.
    
    Pam

    
    I, too, agree that children are "physically" maturing at a younger
    age ... and unfortunately regressing "emotionally".
    
    I know several 17 year old kids (boys and girls!) which I would
    never trust babysitting my toddler, YET years ago 17/18 year olds
    were already parents themselves!
    
    I just don't see the responsibility and emotional stability that I
    would expect from a teenager - soon to be young adult - in today's
    world.
    
    My two cents!
    Dottie
    
    PS:  Our neighbor's 11 year old daughter "wet her pants" yesterday
     ... why?  Because she didn't want to stop playing to go to the
     bathroom SOONER!  Not quite what I would expect from an 11-year old!

    The average is going down these days because of diet.  But I disagree
    that it is because of better diet.  I have read some medical articles
    that have said it is due to all the steroids that are found in our
    meat, including poultry these days.
    
    W-

    re .17
    
    Steroids may have had some effect, but the amount that makes it from
    the animal to the human eater after cooking and digestions is extremely
    small.  The antibiotics given to animals are also a "usual suspect"
    chemical.  In both cases, it's an effect which is both very recent
    (last few decades) and involves _very_ minor doses.  I'd lump this in
    with Alar as a psychological reaction to confusing technology rather
    than a legitimate fear.
    
    The drop in age of menarche started long before steroids were invented,
    in the 1800's, as improved agriculture and trade lead to improved diet.
    
    By the way, the improvement in public health most people think is due
    to antibiotics is due to better water supply, and is clearly dated to
    the 1800's as well.
    
    See William McNeil's _Plagues_and_Peoples_ as well as the various SciAm
    articles; _The_White_Plague_ on tuberculosis has some info on public
    health practices around 1900, but I forget the author's name.
    
    		-John Bishop

    re: .10
    
    >   It's a common belief that in the "old days" people got married
    >   much younger than they do today.  It's not true.
    
    John, 
    
    Very interesting. Is this generally accepted? I've seen books that
    talk about the "invention" of adolescence, even of childhood, in the
    last century (looked at home last night for one I have, but couldn't 
    find it), but I don't recall anything specific about marriage.
    
    In any case, a large part of the argument I was making rests on the
    economic role of teenagers. I can't imagine that there is a serious 
    argument that until the last century teenagers were not integral (if
    generally lowly) participants in the economy. And conversely, that
    teenagers are simply outside the normal adult roles of earning and
    caring for oneself now.
    
    Kit

    I wish I could give you titles and authors on the demographics,
    but I can't remember them now.  The title of one popular-press
    article had something to do with Juliet (of "and Romeo").
    
    I've also read about the 'invention' of new social roles (child
    and teen-ager). It's my impression that the child one is somewhat
    controversial, but that in our own culture's past and in other
    cultures teens were just adults who had not yet gathered enough
    skill, land, money or status to start a family.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I can no resist adding my $0.02 to this interesting topic.  I believe
    that Goethe was right that there is an archetype for all living things. 
    The Human archetype has a seven year rythym.  The change of teeth,
    according the the archetype, should begin to occur in the 7th year 
    (age 6), puberty in the 14th year (age 13), adulthood in so far as the
    self, ego, "I am," spirit is freed and setting one's own destiny in the
    21st year, and further more inner developments on this 7 year rythym.  
    
    But we rush children towards adulthood rapidly.  They watch so much TV
    which works deeply.  They are asked to read early and then to think
    like adults (an aside - Dr. Alan Kay of Apple spoke at the Hudson DEC
    site a couple years ago on the three types of thinking - first, an 
    imaginative thinking where ideas are given charactures and allowed to 
    "play" in the mind - this is destroyed by the cartoons of TV - I believe 
    this is the thinking Plato discussed where Ideas exist; second an 
    Aristotelean thinking of observation to concept which a child does in
    play and imitation; third an abstract thinking which works with learned
    concepts and logic to prove new ideas.  Dr. Kay's research found that
    some 60% of all great discoveries were arrived at by the first type of
    thinking, 35% by the second, and 5% by the last (these percents are
    approximate from memory).  He also found that children 1-6 naturally 
    think in the first way, 7-12 in the second, and 13-19 in the third. 
    Interestingly, the Waldorf schools speak of a 7 year rythym and a
    similar sequence of thinking.) 
    
    Our public schools have pushed the idea that the human should be
    educated according to a linear growth model.  The earlier one learns to
    read, for example, the better as latter growth will thereby be
    accelerated.  I reject this outright and believe it to be a cause in
    physiological changes such as the speeding up of puberty (and change in
    teeth!!)  Note not the ONLY cause - but a significant cause.  This
    abstract thinking is adult thinking.  It takes the child out of its
    world of imagination.  This works deeply into the child and for the
    body may be a signal that it needs to be like an adult causing hormonal
    changes.  Fear of Strangers, Latch-Key kids, Pop Music, Drugs, ... all
    are contributing. Once a child had a secure world in which they were 
    watched out for by their parents.  As they were taken care of, they 
    could take care of animals, dolls. Now its a dangerous world where being 
    adult like is rewarded and being a child is laughed at, frowned upon,
    put down.  I see coaches yell at kids who make a mistake or become dreamy 
    in the outfield.  Did you see Kindergarten Cop?  Outrageous!  Kids once
    had both parents and a home.  They could imitate their parent of the
    same sex and learn what it means to become an adult yet still be a
    child because they could watch and imitate in their play.  Have you
    ever seen a child imitate you working on a computer.  They try but they
    just don't get it or else they think you play computer games all day. 
    Boys lost their connection to manhood in the Industrial revolution when
    they lost their fathers.  Girls are now losing their mothers (no I am
    not advocating mothers should stay home). Children grow up with daycare
    providers and much of the self-created imaginative world is lost. 
    This is, in part, why I believe childhood is being robbed forcing
    children to "grow up" early.  
    
    Problem is that the other parts of the human, the inner life, the
    emotions, are not in synch with these changes to the physical body. 
    Sometimes, things that should have been worked through when one is a
    youngster are not until one is an adult when the problems show up as
    issues within the inner life.
    
     It would be an interesting study to see if Waldorf school kids reach
    puberty at a different age than their peers.    
    
    Andrew (Save the Children!)

    Re: .12 and .13
    
    I heard recently that the later you start your period, the earlier
    menapause starts.  My cousin (43 yrs old) read this in a book.  In the
    same book (sorry, don't know the name), it said also that if you lose
    your parents early, menapause will also start earier.  She is at the
    *very* beginning of menapause.. she started her period around 16 and
    lost both her parents before the age of 29.  Coincidence?  
    
    As for earlier remarks that it's not uncommon for 9 year olds to get
    their periods, I hope this doesn't hold true for my daughter.  I can't
    imagine going through this at such a young age.  I hated it at 13 (and
    still do!).
    
    Mary
    

    You also have to take culture into account when you talk about
    whether kids "used to" be considered adult sooner.  Are you
    talking about 1200 or 1920?  US, China, Brazil, PauPau New Guinea,
    Tibet?  Working classes or upper classes? 
    
    And what aspect of adulthood?  Physical maturity and adult role
    have often gone hand in hand in the past, but neither always has
    much bearing on what a culture decides is the right age for
    marriage. 
    
    In parts of England and France at various times the practice for a
    couple was to become engaged, but to each continue to live with
    their respective parents and save money for as long as they could. 
    If pregnancy resulted, the wedding date moved up.
    
    At times in England a man wasn't legally an adult until he turned
    25.
    
    I think in the US of recent memory it was perfectly normal for 15
    to 18 year olds to leave home and function as adults -- the work
    ages, dropout ages, and other laws in most Western states treat
    16-year-olds as adults in that respect.  My grandfather and his
    older brother left home when they were was 14 and 16, and nobody
    thought this was terribly scandalous.  My grandmother and her
    sister were living in town about 12 miles from their farm home,
    working as maids, when they were 15 and 18.  Again, that was
    perfectly normal for that time and place.
    
    But I wouldn't want to generalize from that to sweeping statements
    about all of the past.
    
    --bonnie