Conference moira::parenting_v3

    What is the age difference?  There must be things that you can all do
    together.  Are you a single parent?  Perhaps Dad can join in, or take
    one while you have the other.
    
    Pam

    Kate,
    
    I forget how old your two are but if they're small 
    (ie. under let's say 5), things *will get* easier.
    My two are 4 and 6 and life is much easier now than
    it was 3-4 years ago.  After my second was born,
    I found myself overwhelmed with exhaustion, guilt,
    sleep deprivation, lack of time, post partum depression.
    You name it, I experienced it.
    
    I put both kids in the same bedroom so neither one would
    feel slighted at bedtime.  They get the same bedtime ritual
    (equality is a big issue with my 6 yr old daughter), same 
    story, same time with mom and dad. It has worked out quite
    well for us.
    
    Hang in there.
    And this too shall pass...
    Jodi-
    

    I know how you feel.  I have a girl (6.5 yrs old) and a boy (3.5 yrs
    old).  My husband has been Mr. Mom for over a year now and he does a
    great job at home.  But as he states, the kids miss me so as soon as I
    hit the front door, they're both clinging to me to play with them. 
    Oftentimes, there's a struggle between the two kids of who gets mama
    first.  All I can do is try to give them as much quality time as I can. 
    It will never come out equal.  Just grin and bear.
    
    Right now my son is clinging to me.  He feels out because his big
    sister gets to go to school and he's not old enough yet.  He's
    constantly asking me, "when I get bigger, can I go to school?"
    
    Kids are a big challenge to parents.
    
    Karen

I only have "one" child and there are days (many lately!) when I feel like
I can't do ANYTHING without Juli hanging onto my jeans or riding my hip!

Juli just turned "2" and she's always been a very independent toughie ...
but lately it's "Mommy, I need a hug ... where's Mommy? ... I want Mommy
... Mommy do it! (not Daddy)"

I used to look forward to 7-8 pm nightly ... I'd clean the kitchen and Jim
would bathe Juli and do the bedtime ritual ... now Juli only wants Mommy
... so Jim still does the bathing, but I do the bedtime ritual (wind down,
reading, singing and tuck-in).  Some nights I can barely find the strength
to get up and leave her room!

I think the core of my frustration lies in feeling like I have NO PRIVATE
TIME ... to read the paper, take a walk, TALK ON THE PHONE! ... that Juli
doesn't "seek and find" me.  And Jim tries SO HARD!  He tries to distract
her, offers a wagon ride, offers to play outdoors, even OFFERS TO GO TO
THE PARK! ... but Juli won't budge unless MOMMY COME?!!

I keep telling myself that "this, too" will pass ..." and I keep hearing my
Mom saying "Hang in there, someday the nest will be empty, you'll hear
the refrigerator hum for the first time, the house will be clean ... and
you will YEARN for the kids, you will wish you spent more time playing
with them and holding them ... loneliness is far worse than exhausion ...".

I try to stay focused on that ... but there are days I wish I could escape
to an island ... just me and no communications and LOTS OF BOOKS and a
newspaper daily and a case of Diet Coke (oh, so heavenly!!!!).

But for now ... it's me AND JULI (stuck to me like super_glue!).  So I try
to find ways to get her "involved".  If I'm preparing dinner, I sit her on
the countertop and let her hand me the vegies to peel ... give her things to
put in the trash_bin, have her remove the clothes from the dryer (while I
fold), give her the smallest bag of groceries to carry into the house,
give her a can of beans to put in the cabinet ... talk A LOT! ("making stew
for dinner, Juli ... this is a carrot ... where's the carrot? ... this is
a potato ... what's this? ...).  If I'm reading the newspaper, I give her
an advertisement flyer, kid's scizzors and tape ... and then I read VERY
QUICKLY!  My Mom bought Juli a mop and broom and she follows me around the
house "cleaning"  (I even give her a dust rag of her own!).

So for me ... I seem to be able to handle the exhausion, but I'm having a
real tough time with the frustration of having Juli asking, seeking and
finding me WHEREVER I am ... and she refuses Jim's diversion ... and she will
completely "flip out" if I don't respond to her ... it really hurts her to
think Mommy is "deliberately ignoring her!" ... and I just can't ignore her!
(and SHE KNOWS IT!) ... 

So I try to find ways to "include her" and hang onto the thought that "someday"
I hope I never feel I didn't hold or play with her "enough" or "more".

S-I-GGG-H.

Dottie

    We have an almost 2-year old.  My experience is that if you don't
    let him be with the currently preferred parent he will yell only
    as long as the preferred parent is in sight.
    
    I bet if Jim carried Juli out the door to go to the park, she'd
    kick and scream for less than a minute, and then would be perfectly
    happy going to the park.  That's how it's worked for us.
    
    You've got to figure out who's boss, and who's not.  "Mommy come"
    is manipulation more than emotional need.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I have two daughters who are 1 year old and 3.5 years old.  I suppose
    I'm lucky that only the 1 year old (Krystin) wants me all the time. 
    Alyssa is fine most of the time doing things on her own.  She's not
    really a "clinger" but she does like the attention.  She LOVES to help
    me more than be with me.  
    
    If I go to the store, just to pick up some milk, she wants to go.  If I
    clean the house, she wants to clean.  If I paint my nails, she wants to
    paint her nails.  
    
    Krystin on the other hand is awful.  As soon as I walk through the door
    and she sees me, it's all over.  She screams "mommy" and clings to my
    leg.  I usually pick her up and bring her into the bedroom with me
    while I change my clothes and then walk out to the living room to play
    with some toys for a little while.  Once she's occupied with something
    really interesting, then I can get up and do whatever needs to be done.
    
    But finding time for yourself when you have two children can sometimes
    be impossible.  My husband seems to be more upset by this than the
    kids.  He is constantly complaining that he doesn't have enough time
    with me.  So I try my hardest to find time for all three of them.
    
    As another noter mentioned,  my kids are fine if I'm not in sight.  As
    soon as I leave the house in the morning, they're upset for maybe 5
    minutes, and then they're fine.
    
    Be patient, this will get alot easier with time.
    
    

    Don't get me wrong, I love my husband and children...but sometimes, I
    would just like to be able to spend 5 minutes in the bathroom by
    myself.
    
    I have two sons, one will be 5 in 8 days that the other is 15months. 
    The oldest is finally getting to be really independant.  He started
    kindergarten this month.  But the times when he does want my help, the
    baby is right there.  It sometimes gets him very mad.  It doesn't
    understand that the baby can't do everyting for himself.  
    
    But if I had the choice, I would wish these two little boys on everyone
    of you all.  It's such a great feeling after a long day to pull up in
    the car and Jeffrey runs out the door screaming MOMMYYYYYYYYYY!!!! YOUR
    HOME!!!!!!!!!!  That really makes me feel great.  Then when I come in
    the door, Evan is there,,,HI HI HI HI HI.  He doesn't say Mommy much
    except at 7 am when he wants out of the crib.
    
    Then every night at 10pm when I check them before I go to bed, I cover
    each of them and kiss them good night and thank God that he blessed me
    with the two of them.  I'm not sure what I was living for before.  
    
    I remember the night Evan was born.  It was a very quick birth and
    after my husband came back from calling his Mom and mine, I was holding
    the baby and was crying.  He said, "Why are you crying...you should be
    happy...look at that beautiful baby!!!"  I said, "I know...but I just
    wish my Dad was alive to see this."
    
    I know it's tuff...but count your blessings that you have the children
    you have...the previouse noters mother was correct...they will be gone
    before you know it.
    
    
    Sorry I rambled...but just get me talking about my kids...I could go on
    for hours...
    
    
    Lillian

     We find that "separate but equal" works better for us than "together and
equal."  We believe that each child needs some unshared time with at least
one parent.  I do agree that it gets somewhat easier as kids get older and
their perception of time expands.  For example, they become more likely to
accept an "in a minute" or "at 7:30", provided the promises are kept.
     The Ferber/Mazlish books ("Siblings Without Rivalry" and "How to Listen
So Kids Will Talk, and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen" [or vice versa]) are
useful resources.  If only my kids would react like the kids in the
"cartoons" in those books.    

re: .5

     I agree in part and disagree in part.  I believe that gender
identification (which expresses itself in parent preference) is real, and is
not "manipulation".  I agree that most kids who are exhibiting a preference
will do just fine with the non-preferred parent if the preferred parent isn't
present.  And I agree that sometimes you need to show who's in control; I do
remember having to say, at times "Mommy is very tired and can't read a book
to you.  If you want a book, I will read it to you.  If you insist on mommy
reading the book, you will have to go to bed without a book."  And I've
gotten three different responses (OK for daddy to read book, no book, and
tantrum).  My personal view is that "showing who's in control", and doing
what is convenient for the parents should not be confused.  The kid does have
a right to express a preference, and to get what s/he wants at least part of
the time.  Or stated differently, it's important to pick your battles.  You
may choose that which parent does certain things is the battle.  Or you may
choose that which parent does certain things _on_ _a_ _specific_ _night_ is
the battle.

re: parent preference generally:

     See V2, note 1612.

Clay
    

<     I agree in part and disagree in part.  I believe that gender
<identification (which expresses itself in parent preference) is real, and is
<not "manipulation".  

Now it's my turn to agree in part and disagree in part.  I believe that
parental preference is normal and real, and not necessarily manipulation.
In my family it is not related to gender identification, though, as both
of our son's parents are women, and he has gone through periods of preferring
one of the other of us all of his life.  

Who it is that he prefers can change in 10 minutes, or may last for a couple
of days.  We have terms for the parents in this case: one of us is "FP" 
(favorite parent) and the other is "chopped liver".  :-}

        Carol

	I had to snicker at Carol's "chopped liver" comment.  Katie is not at 
all subtle in  expressing her preferences.  We usually say "parent of choice"
and "out of favor"  but I like "chopped liver", it's much more descriptive...:-)

	In general, I think we handle it like Clay and his family.  If it's no 
big deal i.e. both of us standing right there and Katie wants Daddy and not 
Mommy to put on her shoes, no sweat.  Daddy can put on the shoes.  But if Daddy 
is right there with shoes in hand and Mommy is upstairs getting dressed and we 
have a deadline to  meet, then tough cajone's, kid, you get the parent at hand.  
You can take it calmly or throw a tantrum, but it WILL be this way.  ( I had to 
laugh at Clay example of the bedtime story.  We have on occassion had that 
discussion almost verbatim!)  

	Now this is not etched in stone.  Every one has out of sorts days and
wants to be pampered now and then.  If Katie is obviously a little under the 
weather, we'll give in a little more than we would ordinarily and will allow
her to pick the parent  to do things even when it's not awfully convenient.

	But I agree with John. I've found that when we just can't do the "right"
parent, we just calmly say, "Nope. Here's why." and get on with it.  Sometimes
we get away with no tears at all.  Sometime, we have a bit of a tantrum. But if 
you just get going and DO it, in our experience, the kid calms down and goes 
with the flow pretty quickly.

Tracey

    My husband is home with my son during the day.  When I get home from
    work, David wants absolutely NOTHING to do with his father.  Last night
    my husband had just stepped out of the shower and was heading to the
    bedroom to get dressed for work.  David went dashing after him,
    carrying my husband's shoes yelling "Bye Bye Daddy! Bye Bye Daddy"! My
    husband replied "Dave, do I have to leave NOW? Or can I get dressed
    first?" David replied "NOW! GO! SCOOT!"  How's that for chopped liver?
    Sarah

<    How's that for chopped liver?

You beat!  ;-)

      Carol

    We use a "divide and conquer" strategy with our 3 (ages 17, 7, and
    2).  We each spend some time one on one with each of the kids, or
    with one of us having 2 and the other having 1.  For instance, I
    take Steven to gymnastics, and that's our time together.  On
    Saturday mornings Neil and Steven have soccer, Kat's off at dance,
    and I spend some time with David.  
    
    That way we all get a chance to do things with each other. 
    They're more manageable in smaller units, less fussy and less
    likely to get on each other's nerves.  Less opportunities for
    rivalry. 
    
    Plus once a week we get a babysitter and go out to dinner with
    ourselves, no kids along. 
    
    Plus we each get some personal time.  I get up early in the
    morning and have an hour or two before I have to get the kids up
    for school; Neil goes running.
    
    --bonnie

    RE: -.1...Lonliness is worse than exhaustion only when you're not
    exhausted.
    
    I have 2 (ages 4 and 21 months) and hang on to the thought that it
    *does* get easier.  My oldest has been stuck in "Only Mommy Mode" since
    birth; the second one seems a bit more flexible.  
    
    This is no answer...just empathy.  I just try to do my exercises and
    keep myself healthy...and hang in there.
    
    LZP