Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Hi Carol,
    
    If one person wants children and the other doesn't I don't think it's
    fair to have one unless/until the problem is worked out. Having a child
    when one doesn't want a child is unfair to the child and the parent. 
    
    I personally pushed and bullied my husband into having another child.
    Although he loves her with all his heart, there is still some resent-
    ment toward me. For me though, it was worth it. She is our second and 
    last child. I wouldn't have wanted only my son to be the only one.
    
    
    Good Luck,
    Kate

    Carol,  I'm a little confused...
    
>What do you do when you want more kids and your spouse doesn't, and it's
>a big deal to both of you?
    
>Currently, my spouse *does* want more, but there are other factors, and in a
>year she may decide she doesn't have the strength to keep trying.  For me,
>I *really* want kids.  We currently have one child.
    
    Are you saying that if Michele can't have a child, she doesn't want any
    more?
    
    Bob
    
    

    Carol,
    
    A friend of mine had one daughter when his wife decided she desparately
    wanted another.  He didn't want another at all, but she wouldn't take
    No for an answer, feeling that she was the one who did the majority of
    the child-rearing, it was really 'her' decision.  It was just as
    important to him that they didn't have another as he felt unstable in
    the marriage.  Also, she had a difficult time conceiving.  
    
    Ignoring protests, and him tiring of the insistence, she eventually got
    pregnant.  Their son was born a few weeks ago, and while he loves the
    little boy dearly, it has cost them their marriage.  The resentment
    over the months of her being pregnant, and her hurt from his
    resentment, has taken everything from them.  He feels used, she
    rejected.  
    
    I also agree, that if you BOTH don't want to have a baby, then you
    shouldn't have a baby.  
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

I'm not at this time proposing that I just go ahead and get pregnant behind
her back.  I don't do things dishonestly.

Still, this is a major issue, and I'm not sure what to do.  That's why I want
to know what other people have done when the two parents have disagreed on
whether or not to have another child, and when both parents felt strongly
about their choice.

In my case, I had been with a woman several years ago who changed her mind
about wanting to have other children (her youngest was 11).  When the
relationship broke up, I vowed that I wouldn't even *date* anyone who didn't
want to have children.  At that time I wanted 4-5 kids (really, I still do want
about 4). When I met Shellie (this was 7 years ago), she said that this was
something that she wanted, too. She wanted 1-2 kids, and we compromised and
agreed to 2 kids with the option of a third, to be decided *after* the second
was born. 

We got married.  We put "raising children together" into our vows.

Then she got her memories.  She started remembering being sexually abused as
an infant by her parents, and life got tough for everyone.  Evan was only a
few months old then.

At that time, she didn't think she could handle *any* more children, and I 
had to choose between the two things I wanted most: a) children (not just one)
and b)the woman I had married.  It was agonizing.  At that time, I chose her,
partly for me, because I love her, and partly for Evan, because she is his
mother.  In addition, we had agreed to joint custody of any children that
we would have, so if I left Shellie, I would partially lose Evan, too.  The
thought of that was too much for me to bear.

Only a week or two after she had told me that she couldn't handle any more
children, she realized that she could, and that she did want another child.
Unfortunately, she didn't realize that I didn't know that she had turned 
totally around again, and so I went through *months* of agony before I found
this out!  (Yes, we have been seeing a counselor for over a year now, and this
does help).

Soooo, we tried to get her pregnant 5 times in a 7 month period (inseminations).
Then she had some other difficulties, and she is on some meds for the next
few months that have the side affect of preventing conception.  When she gets
off the meds, she says she wants to try again, but that she is not sure how
many months that she can do this (infertility is *hard*).  She also is unsure
of whether she could handle me trying to get pregnant again (for both reasons
of my own infertility, and because she would feel "less" than me).  She has
also said that she is sure that she could not handle a third child.

I feel like I'm getting constant push back, and on something that is central
to my very soul.  

I realize that I do not have to make up my mind this instant, but I also am
*so* troubled about this.  How can we come to an agreement, where both of
us would be happy???????????????????  This is what I want most, but I'm running
out of ideas as to how it is possible.

Please, if you have faced this, let me know what happened, and whether you
would do anything differently.  If you have not experienced this, but you can
share some gentle words which would help me through this time, then please
do so.

Hugs to all of you who care enough to have read this.

       Carol

    
    Carol,
    
    The situation you describe is so varied and complex (childhood abuse,
    AI, adoption being a difficult road as well), that I'd guess that there 
    would be a very small sample of folks who are "qualified" to respond.  
    I'm not one of them 8-), but you do have my very best wishes for an 
    outcome that is satisfactory to you, Shellie and, last but not least,
    Evan.
    
    That said, if I were you, I'd try to not to worry _beyond_ a second 
    child; you had already acknowledged (and accepted) that a third child 
    was "up in the air".  Also, I'd try to do what I could to reinforce
    Shellie's parenting skills despite her own childhood experiences.
    As far as the "less than me" concern and the difficulties of AI, how 
    unrealistic is adoption in your  situation and would it be an acceptable 
    alternative to you?  
    
    
    cj/ - who just couldn't resist sticking in two cents! 
    
    
    
    
    
    

Unfortunately, for reasons I cannot discuss, adoption is not currently an
alternative for us.

I do think, however, that anyone who has gone through a similar (major) 
disagreement with a spouse would be able to offer me helpful information.
I do not think that my specifics are such that others cannot help and/or
relate.

My thanks to those folks who have already sent me mail or responded in notes.
I appreciate it.

     Carol

Carol,

These are intended as gentle words - I hope they come across that way.

From what you've described here, the situation sounds to me like it may turn
out in a way that you and Shellie can both accept (not guaranteed, of course!). 
Do you think that you could get yourself into a state of mind of letting go of
the issue for a while (maybe set a specific time limit, like 6 months, or
whatever you think would make sense)? My reading of the situation is that you're
really stewing about this, and I worry that the stewing may have a negative
effect on your family.  If you can get out of that mode, and instead devote that
energy to things that continue to solidify your family, and give Shellie some
time to sort out her own feelings, that might lead to a happier outcome.  I
can't tell you how to turn off the stewing - consciously refocusing on other
things, getting some time alone to just calmly think and help yourself reach
some peace, getting away from your family for a few days so that you better
appreciate all the good aspects about them when you return, reducing other
stress in your life so that you can deal with this one more effectively - those
are things that I would be looking at if this was my situation, I think.

Families are very important - I hope you can find a path to happiness for all of
you.
	cheryl

    RE: .3
    
    Patty, who's to say that if they had decided NOT to have another child,
    *her* resentment wouldn't have cost them their marriage?  From what you
    said, it sounds like the disagreement itself, not the child, caused the
    marriage to disintegrate, and that the outcome might have been exactly
    the same if they had decided the other way.  True?
    
    FWIW,
    Steve

    Steve,
    
    Sorry I wasn't clearer on that ... when she was about 5-6 months
    pregnant, everything came out, and for the first time she realized how
    much he really DIDN'T want to have another baby, and then she was very
    sorry about it.  Who's to say if it wouldn't have eventually been a
    problem anyway, but having the child certainly accelerated things. 
    They're both young - 5 years from now might've worked out better....
    
    The disagreement, as well as pre-existing marital problems caused the
    disintegration of the marriage.  And the marital problems was the basis
    for his disagreement ... so yah, I guess you're right, that it didn't
    have much to do with the baby - but having the baby sure helped things fall
    apart a little faster than they would've without her pregnant.
    
    Patty

    I agree with the person who suggested putting the issue away for a set
    period of time.  You both agree not to discuss the issue at all for,
    say 6 months, or a year.  At the end of that time period, you re-open
    the discussion.  
    
    I think having a child when only one person wants it, and the other
    doesn't is a huge mistake.  I can't think of anything sadder than a
    child that the parent(s) didn't want.  A therapist once told me that
    if you want children and your spouse doesn't, at some point, you're
    going to have to choose between the two, sad as that may seem.

    Hi,
    
         I think that I am getting VERY confused here.  Are we talking
    about two different situtions here or the same one?  I thought that we
    were all talking about Carol and Michele and then Patty's note .9
    really threw me for a loop.  Some one please HELP!!!!
    
    
                             ---Sue

    Yes, we ARE talking about Carol and Michele's situation, but then Patty
    mentioned a friend of hers who disagreed with his wife about having
    children, but who had one anyway, and it broke up their marriage.  

    This is a very difficult situation because there isn't much in the
    way of compromise.  It isn't like a job change, for instance,
    where you might be able to save up money for the transition or
    survive a commuter marriage or something like that.  For the most
    part, either there's a child in the family or there isn't.  You
    can't have it part time, you can't give it back if you're wrong.  
    
    Whoever it was who pointed out that not having the child might
    have cost Patty's friend's marriage anyway was absolutely on
    target.  No matter which way one settles, *somebody* is making a
    serious sacrifice of something that matters a great deal to them. 
    
    I didn't want more children for a long time.  Neil did.  I think
    he'd even like more than we have now, though if we did want more
    we'd adopt rather than grow them at home.  It was hard knowing
    that he wanted a family, feeling it kind of in the background, and
    yet knowing very strongly that I didn't want to go through the
    kind of physical pain I went through the first time and even more
    the emotional pain of having Kat's father leave me -- I was sure
    Neil would leave too.  And I don't deal very well with children
    too young to communicate.
    
    Then my period was late, and I was having nausea, and we thought I
    might be pregnant -- and Neil was delighted.  It turned out to be
    a false alarm, or else an early miscarriage, but it was enough to
    tip the balance toward me going along with having another child.
    
    And now we have three.
    
    All in all it worked out well.  I'm happy with it, we're happy
    together, the kids are doing great.  It's hectic, and there are
    times when I sit there and think, "I made a mistake when I agreed
    to this."  I'm sure if we had decided the other way, and we were
    here with Kat on the verge of leaving for college and no other
    kids in the house, I'd be thinking the other choice was the
    mistake.  
    
    I don't know whether our relationship would ever have reached the
    point of an explicit "We have kids or I go."  Issues like this
    tend to work more subtly -- to spread over into other areas of
    disagreement, to show up in symbolic actions that one partner
    associates with parenthood.  Bringing home stray cats, for
    instance.   
    
    But the essence remains, "Do I want this one much-loved individual
    I chose for my life's partner, even at the expense of something I
    value very much, or do I want the other thing I value, even if it
    costs me this precious relationship?"  I think my wording is a
    little weighted to the relationship and I don't mean it to be --
    it might well be that the dream of one's own family outweighs the
    commitment to any individual, and I don't think that's wrong.  Nor
    do I think it's wrong to say, "I'm sorry, I just can't give you
    this one thing, I can't be a parent."  But it is wrong is to go
    behind the other person's back about it and get pregnant without
    telling them.  That's not fair.  
    
    But it is a serious and difficult thing, a hard decision, and
    there isn't a right or a wrong.  I do know of a woman who divorced
    her husband because he wouldn't agree to have kids.  She's now
    happily married with two kids of her own and one that came with
    her new husband.  I know another couple who has comfortably
    settled into childlessness for pretty much the same reasons
    Shellie's uncertain about more children.  
    
    I hope this helps -- it wasn't easy to write.
    
    --bonnie

    I had the baby hunger and my husband didn't "yet".  I pushed and
    cried for months and finally I let it drop.  A short time passed.  
    We went to a family outing, where children were very prevalent.  My 
    husband and I were silently driving home and he said "if you want 
    to get pregnant you can."  
    
    I litterally JUMPED on the opportunity.  The pregnancy was rough.  
    The first months were rough.  (What else is new?)  During every 
    rough time I felt GUILTY.  I wished then I didn't push so hard, 
    and that all these changes in his life weren't all my idea. 
    
    Though I can sympathize with the incredible baby hunger that 
    can grow inside a person, I guess I'd suggest moderation in
    trying to change your spouse's mind.  Even if it works, its like
    you won the battle but lost the war.  Almost every pregnancy
    and babyhood has its "rough times".  Will you feel like you 
    brought them on? 
    
    PS - My husband is a wonderful father.  Now HE's pushing for #2. 
    I'm lucky it worked out that way. 
    
    -renee          

We're talking about multiple situations here, and I think each one deserves
a different response.

1) couple with no kids and only 1 spouse wants kids

   IMHO, this would be the hardest if it came down to the "choice" described
   in previous notes.  Again, IMHO, I think everyone deserves the chance to
   be a parent if they want it.  It is *wonderful*!  My sister and her husband
   did not get married until he agreed to have 1 child.  She, on the other 
   hand, had to agree to only have that 1 child.

2) couple with 1+ kids and only 1 spouse wants more

   At least you already have some (one) kid.  Revel in your joy at having
   what you have.  You are blessed.  Currently, my husband and I have 1 child.
   During the 1st year after her birth, I wanted 5 more!  Of course I was
   still "high" on hormones.  Now I've come back down to reality and only
   want 1 or 2 or 3 more.  No, seriously, what I'm getting at is my philosophy
   is you don't know what you want until the point of your life comes around
   when you are ready to make a decision.  Prior to my baby Michelle,  I
   thought 1 or 2 kids would be okay.  But even then I knew I wouldn't know
   exactly what I wanted in the future.  My husband and I have no agreements;
   we just live day-to-day.

Kyra

To update you all, here is what is happening:

Shellie and I talked about this at length, and talked to our relationship
counselor about it as well.

I realized that I would need to put this aside for a time (as a couple of
noters suggested), but it was extremely hard just then.

We talked about our differences.  One of the things that Shellie and I have
learned these last couple of years of counseling is that Shellie is a processor,
whereas I am the opposite.  Shellie weighs a decision over and over, and enjoys
the process of doing so.  She will go back and forth and back...and then forth,
etc, many times before finalizing, whereas I process the options once, make
a decision, and stick to it.  Neither way is bad, but they are definately
*different*.  Many of our problems have been because of this difference.

We have agreed to the following:
Shellie is now excited about trying to get pregnant again.  When she is able
to (around Dec-Jan), she will start trying again.  
As long as she continues to try to get pregnant, I will not bring it up again
to her until at least Spring. 

This way, if she has processing to do on this (if she starts having second
[third/fourth] thoughts on this) she will have to work them out without me.
I will not be subjected to *her* way of processing, and that way I will not
immediately jump into mine (thinking of all the possibilities, and making
my decision what to do in the case of each one).  This way *she* will not
be subjected to *my* way of processing.  I sure hope this is clear to you all.
It's hard to explain.  :-}

In addition, if she *does* get pregnant when we start trying again, the main
problem will be taken care of.

Soooo, we are working it out.  Other things in our relationship are going
very well.  We have even done a semi-termination with the couple's counselor,
in that we will probably not see her again until Spring (barring unforeseen
circumstances), and if we are still doing well then the meeting in Spring
will be to terminate.  In addition, October is our month of anniversaries.
We just celebrated 7 years together, and our 5th year wedding anniversary is
Friday.  We are planning a trip to Santa Fe (without Evan!) for the weekend
to celebrate.

Thank you very much for your support.  I really appreciate it.  It was very
hard writing my problems here, but they were intense problems for me, and I'm
glad I took the risk to ask your help.

       Carol

    
    I'm so glad that you've both found a way to get around this problem!
                
>>We just celebrated 7 years together, and our 5th year wedding anniversary is
>>Friday.  
    
    Congrats!!!!
    
    Monica
    

Since I mentioned this in another note, I think I should add it as an
update here, as well.

Shellie was able to start trying to get pregnant earlier than we had 
thought, and we are planning to start inseminating again this month.  :-)

Now for the ups and downs of AI attempts.  ;-)
 
        Carol

I have an update with good news.  :-)

After 7 AI attempts, over about a year's time...

SHELLIE IS NOW PREGNANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :-)

We just found out yesterday!

Shellie is approximately 2 weeks pregnant (or if you count from the day of
her last period, then she is 4 weeks pregnant).  Due date is approximately
October 13.  We are scheduled for an ultrasound in 2 weeks.

Last night we told Evan that he is (finally!) going to be a big brother, and
that it would happen around Halloween (a *long* time away).  We looked at
embryo/fetus pictures together, then he wanted to see birth and breastfeeding.
This morning he and Shellie announced the news at daycare.

According to the books, right now it is just a blob with a yolk sac.
In two weeks it will look something like a fish.  :-)  We saw pictures of
sperm and eggs, too, so I explained the basics of that to Evan (not that he is
going to understand much, mind you).  I told him that when a sperm got into an
egg it would start making a baby.  He then asked, "If lots of sperm get into
the egg, will it then make a dinosaur?" 

:-)
      Carol (I'm going to be a mom again!!!!!!!!!)  :-)

    re: 19   CONGRATULATIONS!!!!   that's great news!
    	     All the best to you, Carol, and to Shellie, Evan, and ????.
    
    cj/

    
    CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I'm so happy for you all! What a joy!
    My best wishes to you and your family.
    
    Chris
    

    That's GREAT Carol..... I know how much you both wanted this.. and were
    so disappointed when it had to be put off for a while!

    What wonderful news!

    Give Shellie a hug for me, and tell Evan that we are expecting reports
    of what a big help he is!!!!

    Lots of love,

    M-L

    No judgement intended, but are Carol and Shellie both women?  I've
    read a few of Carol's notes, and it seems that way, but Carol referred
    to the two of them getting married and I didn't know 2 women could
    legally get married.  I also realize that both of them have names
    that COULD be male.  

    I love Evan's comment about the dinosaur!  Sure glad that didn't happen
    to me...although if I got to choose I'd go for the one with the long
    neck and very small head!
    
    Congratulations to you all!
    
    Hugs,
    
    judy

<    No judgement intended, but are Carol and Shellie both women?  I've
<    read a few of Carol's notes, and it seems that way, but Carol referred
<    to the two of them getting married and I didn't know 2 women could
<    legally get married.  

No problem.  I guess it's my fault because I *still* haven't written an
intro yet (and me a moderator!!!).  :-}

Yes, we are both women.  I gave birth to Evan and now Shellie will give birth
to the next child.  Although there is no state in the U.S. that yet legally
recognizes same-sex weddings, many gays and lesbians want the societal and
familial recognition that comes with a ceremony.  There are several different
churches that will perform these ceremonies.  Our wedding was performed in
1986 here in Colorado Springs.  All of our parents attended, as well as about
75-100 other people (and we were pretty closeted back then!).  

So, does that help clear up your confusion??  :-)

Thank you all for your support.  You are a great group of people!!!

         Carol

    Congrats Carol to you and yours!
    
    I was rolling yesterday when I read Evan's comment about the dinosaur!
    
    Again, the best to your family.
    
    ..Lori

    
    Carol,
    
    	What wondeful news! Having just had my first baby, I *now* realize
    (certainly more so than I did before) just how special these little
    creatures are.
    
    	Best wishes to your entire family and happy times ahead.
    
    			Wendy

    Thanks for the good news!  I'm glad you and Shellie could agree
    on this and that it's joyful news for both of you.
    
    I'm a little surprised to see you announce so early.  We held 
    off telling people until the first trimester was over, as we
    were worried about the possibility of miscarriage (and did in
    fact have several).  On the other hand, you're already a
    parent and know that the worrying never stops so there's no
    point waiting until the worrying is over to tell people!
    
    		-John

<    I'm a little surprised to see you announce so early.  We held 
<    off telling people until the first trimester was over, as we
<    were worried about the possibility of miscarriage 

It's always a judgment call, John.  For me, I'd rather be up front in the
beginning.  If we *did* miscarry, then I would have more support, I think,
then if I hadn't told anyone.  This way, regardless of whether we might 
miscarry later, our friends can share in our happiness with us today.

       Carol

    I understand, Carol--it's a matter of your personality and the
    way you like to relate to the people around you.
    
    We had the experience of announcing and then having a miscarriage,
    and I know we didn't enjoy telling people about it, nor having
    people who hadn't heard the miscarriage news ask us how things
    were going, or even (months later) whether we'd had a boy or a
    girl, etc.  Both of us wished afterwards that we hadn't gone public.
    
    For the next pregnancies we decided to wait until after the
    amnio results to tell people.  As we had two more miscarriages
    we got to see whether we preferred things that way.  We did--but
    that doesn't mean that other people have to!
    
    		-John Bishop

    We told with the first, and had to un-tell when the miscarriage
    happened, so we decided not to tell with the second, and decided that
    that felt lonely, and so decided with this pregnancy to tell our
    support network early on, and to live with the un-telling if necessary
    (not so far, at 6 months and counting)...for us, the un-telling can be
    a part of the grieving process, kind of a facilitator for it...
    
    Congrats, tho!  It works out nice with your family--I am bored with
    this second pregnancy, just want to see the wonderful new person in our
    lives!  You can spread the task around a bit!
    
    Best of luck and fun,
    Adrienne