Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I didn't see the show, but during my last pregnancy I was once
    refused an alcoholic drink at a local establishment.  
    
    --bonnie

    Not having seen this episode, I can only guess at what the discussions
    covered; could it be that these establishments were concerned less
    with morality and more with legality ? Like, "gee, if that woman
    has trouble with birth or with the health of the child, will she
    sue us for not posting signs??"
    
    You're definitely right that it's a sensitive topic. I'd also like 
    to suggest that it is a cultural one too. This kind of "minding someone
    else's business" is culturally exceptable behavior in other parts of
    the world and probably wouldn't anger the pregnant woman as much.
    
    Just thinking out loud on this one,
    
    Monica
    

    
    I did get too see some of the show.  It seemed to me that everyone in
    the audience wanted too talk but, didn't want the guests to do any
    talking.  In my own opinion I would rather see a pregnant woman take a
    drink then too see her do DRUGS!!!  
    
    						carol
    

    When I was six months pregnant I mentioned to a friend that I was
    looking for a maternity swimming costume so I could go to the local
    pool.  She made no attempt to disguise the fact that she thought the
    idea of a pregnant woman going swimming was obscene and embarrassing to
    other people.  I was also told by someone else that it was dangerous
    for me in case I got kicked or hit accidentally by another swimmer.
    
    I don't think either person was concerned for my health - just that
    they personally couldn't cope with the idea of seeing a pregnant woman
    in a costume.   I, of course, ignored them both and swam regularly.
    
    Ali
    

I can't believe anyone would be upset seeing a pregnant woman in a bathing
suit.

I was in a pool a couple of weeks ago.  There was a young family there, a
father a small child of about 2 and the mother who was about 7-8 months 
pregant.  She was wearing her normal bikini.

Good lord! Are we supposed to stop living just because were pregnant?  My
doctor said I could do anything I did when I wasn't pregnant except horseback
riding and deep sea diving (no problem there :-).

At least here we don't have to worry about nursing in public.  It is absolutely
natural.  No one would look twice.

ccb

    
	RE: .0
    
	Yup... I saw the episode.  But I remembered it a bit
    	differently - not that it makes much of a difference, but...
    	
    	>bottle to the table, put the bottle warning label to the woman and said
    	>something to the effect that "I hope you know what you are doing to
    	>your baby".

    	If I remember it correctly, (and I'm not sure that I do, so
    	please correct me if I'm wrong) the waitress brought the
    	drink to the table with something that had the contents listed
    	on it (warning label, whatever) but she said "In case you
    	were wondering..."
    
    	Now on one hand, I can see where she'd get upset.  If she
    	ordered a drink and the waitress informed her of it's
    	contents she got the "it's my body, I know full well what
    	I'm doing" and exploded to the manager.  But to play
    	devil's advocate, she also could've chosen to merely say 
    	"thank you" and let it go at that.  I don't believe her
    	entire dining experience should've evolved to what it
    	did - so much so that it got the waitress fired.
    
    	It sounds to me that she was somewhat guilty about HAVING
    	the drink in the first place and when the waitress informed
    	her about the alcohol content - she exploded and made
    	a mountain out of a molehill.
    
    	(I didn't really pay much attention to the second woman)
    
    	Just my two pennies.
    	/Kim

    re .3
    
    

Yes, alcohol *is* a drug.  Most people seem to forget this.

I have really mixed feelings about this.  A woman I used to date is one of
the most active folks involved in California in protecting the pregnant
mother's rights.  She was even in Time Magazine.  I heard a lot about her point
of view, but I tend to go in the other direction.  If a woman has chosen
to allow the embryo/fetus to grow into a baby, then I think she has the
obligation to make sure that it becomes as healthy a child as she can make it.
I don't want any of us (individuals/government) to nitpick exactly which foods
she should eat (have you had your 4 gms of spinich today?) or what exercise
she needs to have, or whatever.  I do think, though, that she should not 
do anything that may be directly harmful in any way to the child-to-be.  I also
think that businesses are within their rights to refuse a particular service to
a pregnant woman if they think it would be harmful to the fetus (UNLESS the
woman has a doctor's permit, like for a hot tub). 
    
        Carol dB

    	I think that one of my issues with this topic is that, yes indeed,
    alcohol is a drug and the label has a warning for pregnant women *as
    well as* anyone who operates heavy machinery (or on some who have
    health problems).

    	This being the case, who is it for the restaurant to decide that
    pregnant women should not drink? Do they show the label to whoever the
    driver is at each table? Do they show the label to anyone who appears
    to have some sort of liver dysfunction? Do they, for that matter, show
    the label to *every* woman who orders a drink because they *may* be
    pregnant and just don't know it? Just because a pregnant woman has a
    very physical condition, why should she be treated any differently as a
    customer? Some people seem to think that your brain cells go on
    vacation when you get pregnant, for goodness sake, don't you think we
    want the best for our babies? (yes, I know that there are some women
    who abuse alcohol and drugs but they are not the issue right now)

    	This topic does indeed walk a fine line between the woman's rights
    and the baby's rights. Women are currently being put in jail for
    exposing their unborn babies to drugs, should they be put in jail for
    exposing their babies to cigarette smoke? (there is a warning there as
    well), to caffeine, to Nutrasweet, to artificial food colorings, to
    preservatives?

    	I want the very best for my baby, but if I had ordered a drink at a
    restaurant and had either been refused or had been treated differently
    from the other customers who had ordered drinks, I know that I would be
    *outraged*!

    	Who is someone else to tell me how to treat my body? (almost all
    pregnancy books say that an occasional drink is permissible). Who is
    someone else to make medical decisions for ME?

    	As an example, we were recently in a restaurant and when my husband
    ordered a beer with his dinner, the waitress turned to me and said, you
    know you can't have a beer but you can have a glass of wine if you'd
    like. I wasn't planning on having any drink but geeesh, are we really
    going to give the general (sometimes uninformed) public the authority
    to make medical and waht is deemed as moral decisions for us?

    				Wendy 
                                                

    It seems to me that there are two consistent positions:
    
    1.	A fetus is a person, and so may not be aborted or
    	harmed by consumption of alcohol, etc.
    
    2.	A fetus is not a person, and so may be aborted or
    	harmed etc.
    
    Either a woman has control over her body when pregnant or
    she doesn't.  People who assert some inconsistent mixture
    of desires (e.g. alcohol is wrong and abortion is ok) are
    possibly in error.
    
    I can only forgive officious waiters, etc. in the current
    context of crazy liability laws--courtesy would otherwise
    require not making comments except in case of imminent serious
    harm ("Pardon me Ma'am, but your hair's on fire.").
    
    		-John Bishop

    If you allow a bar/restaurant or anybody else for that matter to stop
    someone from having a drink because "THEY" believe she's pregnant and
    "MAY" cause harm to the unborn child.......Then what happens when that
    same person wants to purchase cigaretts??????? I guess from some
    of the comments this would not be allowed????? OH and what about 
    2nd hand smoking??????????? If my wife who is now 10 weeks along
    goes into a restaurant she can request that all folks who light up
    must put all those cigaretts out......THEY are harming the fetus????
    IMO....If my wife wants to have an occasional glass of wine or beer
    She is intelligent enough to decide that for herself...and any place
    that said she couldn't for that reason (pregnant) would hear from me at
    that point in time (so would everyone in the place) and would never see
    me there again..........
    
                                                   Bob 

    Several years ago I read a very good science fiction story in
    _Redbook_ about a woman in a technological society where every
    aspect of her life was monitored.  One morning when she was
    brushing her teeth, the automatic scale in the bathroom told her
    she had gained half a pound and had to be put on a diet, so when
    she got to the kitchen she got dry toast and juice when she was
    starving.  The rest of the story is about her attempts to buy
    something, anything, to eat, but the computer has her credit
    locked up so she can't use it for food.  (I mean, overweight's bad
    for you, right?  And we can't let you do something bad to
    yourself.)  
    
    In the end it was all right because when she sat down at the
    table for dinner, the all-knowing computer informed her she was
    pregnant and gave her an extra serving of ice cream . . . but
    still the story always gave me the creeps, because once you start
    imposing that kind of restriction, where do you stop?
    
    Poor nutrition is known to cause more problems for the baby and
    the mother than an occasional drink or heavy caffeine use -- maybe
    we *should* force pregnant women to eat spinach even if they hate
    it.  For that matter, which expert do you believe?  The evidence
    on caffiene is very mixed, most of it boiling down to, "Well, it
    crosses the placenta and speeds up the baby's heartbeat, so it
    must be bad."  Which might or might not be correct, but who's to
    say? 
    
    --bonnie

    
    I can't get over this whole thing because I was advised *by my doctor*
    to have a glass of wine on occasion (up to say, once a day) for
    relaxation purposes.   I'd be made as hell if someone wouldn't let
    me buy a drink that was essentially "doctor's orders".   
    
    cj/

    We're 7 years past 1984.  It's not as dramatic as the book, but there's
    a spooky "big brother knows best - and will enforce it" attitude.
    
    Mandating seatbelt use for minors is one thing.  Using public censure
    to stop pregnant women from having one drink, or even a cigarette, is
    quite another.
    
    It's a sad dichotomy in the US where three out of five kids are growing
    up in poverty, the infant mortality rate approaches Third World
    standards, the urban hospital wards are filled with AIDS babies
    that no one wants, and environmental hazards threaten future
    generations.  The worst fetal problems are not caused by a glass or
    wine or beer with dinner at a restaurant.  They are caused by poor
    maternal nutrition, alcohol abuse, and drug abuse.
    
    We have two standards here - nothing is pure enough for the privileged
    class, and the others don't matter at all.  But for those sheltered
    children of the privileged class, what kind of world will they grow up
    to live in?   They cannot be sheltered forever.  Will standard
    equipment be electrified fences around homes, guns for self-protection,
    filtered water, and oxygen masks?  This is the US if things continue as
    they are.
    
    I pray that there is a shift in consciousness that we ALL may do the
    right thing for ALL children, as the Native American wise women and men
    advise us.  They teach that we must make all decisions for the benefit
    of the 7th generation.
    
    I think a more apt literary description of the excesses of our times,
    is the Handmaid's Tale.
    
    Laura  

    
    I am due on August 24.  I have an occassional glass of wine with dinner
    or on a Saturday afternoon.  With my first son who is now two.  I
    stopped smoking and as soon as I found out.  My doctor told me that
    because I use to smoke that if I ever really got upset to go have a
    quick smoke so that I would not upset the baby.  That smoking the three
    or four cigaretts that I smoked with him was not as harmfull as if I
    had gotten completely upset.  So,  I dont think a pregant woman needs
    to be reminded every time she goes somewhere what she is suppose to do
    or not to do.  That is why you go see a doctor when you are pregant. 
    Hopefully she has enough sence to care about her baby and listen to the
    doctor.
    
    Sorry for going on and on.  I just get so upset when people say to me
    should you really have a glass of wine and etc.
    
    Della

    When I was nursing my son, the pediatrician who was originally
    from Germany, recommended that nursing mothers have a beer in
    the evening to relax them and to encourage the flow of milk.
    
    I think that we have to make a distinction here between an occasional
    beer, or glass of wine and excessive drinking which will indeed harm
    the baby.
    
    In Europe women have been consuming beer or wine with their meals
    during pregnancy and nursing for generations. The word here is
    *moderation*.
    
    Bonnie

    	I absolutely agree that moderation is the key, but I just see the
    swing in society to "we know what's better for your baby than you (the
    mother) do".

    	I *personally* think that it is deplorable that women are being
    sent to jail for taking illegal drugs while pregnant. I realize that
    the baby has been harmed and has had to suffer but shouldn't we be
    trying to help the mother (and child) (re-hab program) instead of
    putting her in jail. Isn't this more of a moral crime than a civil or
    federal crime? Shouldn't compassion instead of judgment be used? (I
    realize that the argument of where is the compassion of the mother to
    the unborn baby is valid, but apparently addictions are not easy things
    to control and are sometimes life and death situations in themselves)

    	And just where will all of this lead to? Again, the questions of
    smoking and "non-healthy" food arise. If a child is born with *some*
    sort of impairment, will it be considered the mother's fault, for
    whatever reason? Will the mothers be held at fault for not being able
    to take better care of their (in utero) babies? (you didn't take your
    vitamins everyday, your child could have had a higher IQ, that'll cost
    you ten years in jail).

    	I realize that I'm presenting scenarios that seem highly unlikely,
    but I also fear that if nothing is said against this "tide of moral
    indignation" that the situation could theorectically progress to this
    state at some time in the future.

    	I had forgotten about the Handmaiden's Tale (Handmaid?) but that is
    a very frightening thought, isn't it?
    
    	I've had people come up to me and say things like "that cup of
    coffee better be decaf" and the previous beer/wine example that I had
    presented, as if they feel that they know what's better for my baby
    than I do. It fills me with tremendous concern and I just wonder where
    this social attitude will lead.      

    				Wendy

Beer, in particular Stout (Guiness et al), has long been a recommended
supplement for pregnant women for the reasons outlined in .16 .

The underlying problems here are 1. The Legitous nature of the American
Society. Because every one is always ready to sue the provider of goods if the
goods aren't used correctly, people have become complacent and no longer care
to think for themselves or consult a qualified expert (such a a doctor), as to
the appropriate use, and prefer to trust a 25 words or less label...

and 2. People do not understand the term moderation. Yes, drinking your self
into a stupor everynight will damage your fetus. Smoking 4 Packs a day will
destroy your lungs, but a good cuban cigar after an excellent meal is
wonderful... Equally, Digital needs to exercise moderation in it's expenses,
but the "masses" don't understand Moderation. Either you order/buy whatever
you need whenever you need it, or you freeze spending totally.

The general public is becoming too stupid to take a rational approach to
anything anymore... Sigh....

OF course, if you really want to see how bad it could become, watch "The
Handmaid's Tale" screening on HBO at the moment. Now there are some scary
pregnancy concepts....

q

    Excuse me, but when I was only a few months pregnant we were going to
    do our "annual" vaction in the Hudson Valley section of New York, where
    there are Lots of wineries, and the famous Cullinary Institute, where
    some excellent chefs have come from.  
    
    I informed the OB of our vacation plans and asked for advise since all
    the wineries give tours and samples.  His advise to me was go ahead, do
    the tours, enjoy the wine, it'll probably do you more good than harm,
    infact he said it would likely make me feel relaxed.  
    
    So I did, and the rest is history!
    
    The good or bad part, whichever way you view it, was I could barely
    handle half a glass of wine before becoming completely tipsy.  For some
    reason alcohol, and caffien for that matter, seemed to react quite
    strongly when I'm pregnant.