Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    When my son was two monthes old he was in the hospital and on an
    antibiotic which caused him to have a Urinary Tract Infection.
    They gave him a sauve and powder to put on it.  It cleared up within a 
    week.  This also happens to my nephew whenever he is on an antibiotic.
    It is just a reaction but, does clear up.
    
    Has your son been on any antibiotics lately?  Hope this gives you some
    information.
    
    						carol
    

    As you mentioned, it is not as common for boys to have UTI as it is
    girls.  My daughter had one when she was 13 months and the doctor said
    it could have been caused by bubble bath (we lived in Hawaii and she
    had average 2 baths a day with bubbles, of course).  I would suggest
    getting a second opinion if possible since the infection is clearing up
    with the medication.  If it wasn't responding to the medication, I'd
    worry.  But sometimes kids get things theyre "not suppose to get". Just
    an opinion.
    
    Kristy
    

    My daughter got a urinary tract infection when she was five months
    old.  They just treated it with an antibiotic and said that it was
    common for little girls to get them.  Not two weeks after the medicine
    she came down with another one (only symptom was a very high fever).
    She was treated again but when she came down with another one right 
    away they decided to do further testing (she was nine months old at
    the time).  They put her in the hospital to do a IVP where they 
    inject dye into her veins and take x-rays as it goes through her 
    kidneys and bladder.  They found out that she had a reflux problem
    where the urine would go back into her kidneys when she voided and
    it would stay there and stagnate.  
    
    The next test they did they had to put her in the hospital and put
    her to sleep for.  They put a tube into her urethra(?) that had a 
    tiny camera on it and looked into her bladder.  They found out that 
    her tubes leading from her bladder to her kidneys were deformed and
    that she would need surgery to rebuild them.  They put her on 
    antibiotics constantly for a year until she was a little bigger.
    When she was eighteen months old they did her surgery and she has not
    had but one infection since then and she is now fourteen years old.
    
    She came through the operation very well and was running the hospital
    halls two days after surgery.  Mom didn't do as well.  The only thing
    that was painful for her was when they injected needles into her
    bladder to get the cleanest possible catch.  They had to put her on 
    a papoose board to do this.  The tests were not that bad.  I do
    remember that when they did the dye procedure they gave her a drug to
    relax her so she would move around alot.  If you have any more 
    questions I can answer please feel free to give me a call or send
    a mail message.  Henmueller @NQO or CGVAX::Henmueller.  DTN-264-8321.
    
    Best wishes and don't worry!
    
    Vickie
    
    

    Eric hasn't been on antibiotics so that couldn't have caused the
    UTI.  I have recently started giving him bubble baths, but only
    about 1 per week, so maybe that's a possibility.
    
    .3 - thanks for the indepth explanation of what you encountered.
    One of the tests mentioned was about putting the tube in the
    urethra but the doctor didn't mention being put out for it.  He
    just said it was uncomfortable.  It sounds like the tests your
    daughter had are sort of a combination of what they want for Eric.
    I know he mentioned dye in the bladder for the the tube in the urethra 
    test, so maybe it is sort of like what you had done - only different.
    
    I spoke with the nurse who had spoken with the doctor and he said 
    they do like to do this further testing when boys get ONE infection.
    We are going to meet with the doctor to get the entire scoop on 7/22.
    
    It scares me that they want to do this after just one infection.  I
    start imagining the worst, although it's probably nothing.  
    I know anything done to Eric will probably be about 10 times worse on 
    Mom and Dad.
    
    Donna
    

    Hi Donna,
    
    Good luck with little Eric.  I wish him a swift healing.  
    
    Laura

    I'd REALLY hesitate to let them do this from just one infection.  Does
    "Boys don't get them that often"  mean that Boys don't get them AT ALL??
    If some boys get them, they have to be SOMEONE's kids!
    
    I'm not against testing, when needed, but to put a 2-year old through
    that, when there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that there's a
    problem (after all, he's been fine for 2 years, right?) seems a bit
    drastic to me.  Then again, I always try to get the least painful
    /traumatic route for my kids.
    
    Don't kid yourself into thinking you'll be able to deal with it easy. 
    The 2 hardest things I've ever had to do was "Be Strong" for my son
    Chris, once when he was getting stitches, and once as they wheeled him
    away for eye surgery.  At least I didn't have to sit and watch.
    
    Find out what the problem is if there IS a problem and it's not
    detected until (IF!) he gets another infection ?  What are the odds of
    those complications occurring??  Is the Dr, just covering his butt, or
    is there *REALLY* a potentially serious problem here??  
    
    It also occurs to me that when my boys were 2ish, they were VERY
    interested in their penis and did a lot of playing with it.  If your
    son's in the same type of stage, and might have had dirty hands, that
    COULD be an explanation.
    
    GOOD LUCK!!  I'd at least get a 2nd opinion, even if you had to pay for
    it - you may be able to Call some other Dr's office and ask them if
    they would order tests for a 1st time UTI.  
    
    patty

    Earlier this year I thought David might have a UTI.  At the time,
    our pediatrician said that boys "almost never" get urinary tract
    infections, and if David had one, we'd need to go to more
    agressive tests to find out what the underlying problem was.
    
    Fortunately David didn't have one.
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s. The pedi also mentioned in passing that older boys get more
    infections because they can catch them from a sexual partner who
    has one . . . 

	There are earlier notes which discuss this issue in detail (sorry I
don't have time to find the reference). I, and others, who have gone through
similar circumstances described the various issues and options you have.

							Mark

    Mark,
    
    I'd love to find that note. I thought I recalled a discussion on this,
    but I searched Parenting V1, V2 and this one (though I think it was in 
    V2), but didn't come up with anything.  I actually only looked at the 
    keywords because searching the entire file always seemed to take over 
    20 minutes for me (I'd finally hit ctrl Z after 20 minutes because I 
    was sick of waiting).
    
    If anyone knows where the discussion is, I'd love it if you could
    let me know.
    
    Bonnie, is your doctor one of those at MVP?  Just wondering if it
    might be the same doctor with the same opinion.
    
    Donna
    

    Re: -1 searching the whole file... A handy-dandy hint... run a batch
    job to do a directory of the whole V2 file, and output it to a file. 
    Then, anytime you want to search for old notes by title, you can do a
    VMS SEARCH on the output file, which is very fast.

    See note 181.* in this file.

    Weird that I can't read 1017.12.  I was thanking Deb for pointing
    me to the other UTI note that has lots of good info.
    
    Patty, Eric doesn't show much interest in touching himself
    so that wouldn't have caused the infection.  
    
    The doctor prescribed amoxicyllin which was great because we got the 
    chewables and Eric loved them.  Unfortunately, the next day the 
    doctor's office called to say the infection Eric had could not be 
    treated by amoxi and they put him on something called furadantin.  
    It doesn't come in chewables but he took it okay for the first couple 
    days.  After that we had to give it to him somewhat forcefully which 
    I hate.  Anyway, his infection is now gone.  I will bring in a urine 
    sample once a month for the next three months for a check.
    
    Also, we talked to the doctor today and he described the more extensive
    tests and why he wants to have them done.  We are going along with it 
    because of the fact that there can be infections without obvious
    symptoms which, if left untreated, can do serious damage over the years.
    
    I'm sure Eric will not be too pleased having to lay still for this,
    but I don't want to take chances with his kidneys.  Lastly, the doctor
    did say there is about a 99% chance everything is normal, but I'd
    rather have the tests confirm that just to ease my mind.
    
    Donna
    

    Donna, what results did you get from your test on the 22nd?
    
    Inquiring minds would like to know, especially this mom who's been the
    complete route with urinary problems.....If I had been back sooner I'd
    have said wait and see if it reoccurs before putting him through the
    tests!
    
    Lyn
    (I can tell you more off-line)
    

    The 22nd was just to talk to the doctor to hear what the tests
    are all about and why he thinks Eric should have them.
    
    The hospital tests are scheduled for 8/21.  My husband and I hate
    to have him go through this, but we would like to have our minds
    put at ease around knowing whether or not something is malformed and
    should be treated.  So we decided to go with it.  You still have
    time to try and convince me otherwise, if you'd like to try.  To date,
    Eric has been fine in the UTI department.  He has his two year check
    up tomorrow so I am going to bring in a urine sample to have it
    tested (they do this once a month for the next three months, just
    to make sure).
    
    Donna
    
    

    How much convincing do you need?  I've seen my little guy subjected to
    these tests, however the thing he screamed the loudest about was he had
    to be physically restrained, usually some sort of pedi-board or
    sandbags on arms and/or legs, for me it was awful, and it started
    happening when he was only 18 days old.  
    
    I still maintain my stand that if he's waited til around age 2 and has
    only had one infection WAIT!  There's a lot of things that could have
    caused this infection.  If it happens again in the relative near
    future, say next 3 to 6 months, the go ahead with the tests.
    
    My feeling is that the doctors today, especially pedi's, are so afraid
    someone's going to sue for malpractice, that they'd rather overdo the
    testing than let the remotest possibility slip by, even if it makes the
    kids miserable in the process of testing.
    
    I'm sorry if this came on strong, just that recalling some of the tests
    we had is difficult for me.
    
    Lyn

    I don't want to turn this into a debate, but reflux and 
    ureter problems are very common, and can cause irreparable kidney
    damage.  This isn't to scare anyone, but all the doctors -- peds and
    urologists alike are very firm about doing tests immediately for UTIs.
    
    My daughter has reflux and a sphincter problem and is on a low dose
    of bactrim.  She goes once a year for a re-test to see if the
    ureters have grown out of their reflux position. They have done
    ultrasounds of the kidneys and they do a RNC (nuclear medicine test
    similar to the urethra one described in previous notes). In my opinion,
    the RNC was the best of the lot and clearly showed the reflux. The
    refluxes are graded and hers is relatively mild.
    
    The younger the child on the first infection, the more anxious they
    are to do the tests.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Eileen
    

    Thanks for all the input.  We've decided to go ahead with it
    because, although the tests are supposedly uncomfortable (and
    I know Eric will hate being restrained), I don't want to risk
    missing a possible problem because I was too afraid to have
    my child go through a couple tests.  
    
    I understand the other side, too.  At first my husband and I
    said NO WAY, this is his first infection, we'll wait for another
    one before putting him through any unnecessary misery.  But then
    I hear the stories of how there can be minor infections that don't
    show up in urine tests and severe damage can be done over time.
    It just isn't worth worrying about that for years to come.
    
    So, August 21 is the day.  I'm dreading it but I'm going to do
    my best and also try and come up with some distraction techniques
    (like a lollipop as they are about to insert the tube - he has only
    had a couple lollipops in his life and that is when he takes a
    ride with his daycare person to the bank - he LOVES lollipops!)
    
    Donna
    

    Donna, might I suggest you forget about the lolipop, and maybe
    substitute a toy instead.  First, many of the tests your child must
    fast until its over, second he'd likely be laying down, probably quite
    upset and I'd be afraid of choking (even on saliva). Even if they don't
    forbid you to feed him before I'd hesitate.  In our case evertime he
    became extremely upset he would tend to vomit.
    
    As a suggestion when AJ had his tubes put in his ears, he was about 2
    years, I bought a fairly small stuffed puppy and gave it to AJ just as
    he went off to the operating room (by the way he named this thing
    "prize puppy"and he still sleeps with it almost every night).  Now in my 
    case I was allowed to stay with AJ and stand next to the Xray table, 
    which also allowed me to comfort him by holding his hand, stroking his 
    forehead, and generally reasuring him, of course I had to wear a full lead
    apron and assure them I had no chance of being pregnant, but it made me 
    feel better to be there, than to stand outside a closed door hearing him 
    scream and wondering what was happening.  
    
    There was one test where they started and IV, which was used for both
    sedation and to inject a radioactive dye, that too meant absolutely
    nothing by mouth for several hours before and after.
    
    We had an extremely competent pedi-urologist, and he too was of the
    belief that no testing was necessary until a second infection occured.
    All I can say is thank goodness that part is behind us now.
    
    Lyn

    We've got "hospital bear," a stuffed Care Bear that Kathy and Neil
    got me when I was in the hospital having David.  Kathy broke her
    arm badly a couple of months later, and had to have general
    anaesthetic to set her arm, and in a flash of inspiration I
    brought her my bear and told her he wanted to come because he had
    been in the hospital before and knew what to expect and wasn't
    afraid of all the equipment and needles and doctors and stuff.  
    
    He's been used a few times since, once when Steven had to have
    stitches for a bad cut on his finger, and once when Kat needed
    head x-rays and other tests after falling off the high bar of the
    uneven parallel bars.  She tells me even Hospital Bear didn't like
    having the big xray gun coming at his head . . . and I can't say I
    blame him :)
    
    --bonnie

    Here's what happened at Eric's tests.  First we went to have the 
    VCUG done (that's the awful one where they put a catheter in him
    and inject dye into his bladder, wait for him to urinate and then 
    take an x-ray to see how the tubes inside are working).  He started
    crying when I had to take his clothes off.  He cried even harder
    when I had to lay him on the table.  The sound and strength of his
    cry never increased as they tried to catheterize him, so I figure
    it was not painful, just uncomfortable, as the doctor had said.
    
    Unfortunately the nurse could not get the catheter in.  None of
    Eric's doctor's were available to come and try so we didn't do that
    test.  It was suggested we go to a Urologist in case there was a
    blockage.  Also, the pediatrician still felt this test was necessary.
    
    Next we had the ultrasound of the kidneys and bladder.  Eric only
    cried a little but stopped when he realized it didn't hurt (and
    that he could keep his clothes on).  The ultrasound came back normal.
    
    We went to the Urologist who did not do the VCUG, but looked at
    Eric, asked about his history, and then suggested we do not put
    him through another VCUG unless he has another infection (as several 
    of you suggested and as we had originally felt, but...).  He said
    if it was his own child (and he has a little boy), he would go 
    this route.  I gladly agreed.
    
    The pediatrician's office said it is more common than you'd know, 
    that the nurses just bend the tube the wrong way and there often
    isn't a blockage.  The Urologistist said if something is wrong it
    will definitely show up again and that is when we'll do everything
    we need to to get it fixed.
    
    So I'm left not a heck of a lot better off than before this all 
    started.  The ultrasound was good, but the VCUG which would have shown
    more, wasn't done.  Yet Eric still had to go through the discomfort
    of the procedure.   Now we also have to worry about a possible 
    blockage which wasn't one of our worries before all this.  Also feels
    like I've wasted a heck of a lot of time.
    
    Great, huh?  
    
    Donna
    

    Donna, you have my heartfelt support on this one.  I know I've been
    in the same situation witnessing many VCUG's.  What Umass always did,
    not only for me but all pedi patients, was they had a radiologist who
    only did children, she was barely past teen age herself and was
    absolutely wonderful with the kids.  Second, in almost every case the
    doctor incharge of radiology would do most of the tube insertions
    himself, with the young technician assisting.  For me, at least, I had
    complete confidence in this duo, and most tests went well.
    
    I do agree with what you did though, in waiting to redo the VCUG if/and
    when another UTI occurs.
    
    Lyn

    I have a friend who reports she has had excellent results with reducing
    infections in her son.  He tends to get ear infections alot.  She has
    been giving him bee propolis and says he hasn't gotten any ear
    infections in the last six months.  Coincidence? Perhaps... but maybe
    this stuff really works as a general infection fighter as she has been
    told. Bee propolis is a natural product made by bees which get the raw
    material from tree bark.
    
    

    Oh no ... not in here too now ...
    
    There was a long discussion in medical regarding this stuff where it
    was claimed to be a wonder non-drug since it is all-natural.  This
    stuff is claimed to be a panacea solving problems like infections,
    heart disease, cold sores, you name it, it did it.  On those gorunds
    alone (i.e. being a panacea) I am extremely suspicious.
    
    And I'll reiterate for the hundred and one'th time that it does not
    matter if this stuff is natural, or synthetic, since it is being
    used to alter bodily function, IT IS A DRUG, just like penicillin,
    which incidentally, is also a natural product, just cultured in a
    lab instead of on a slice of bread!  So what!
    
    Stuart

    re last.  Take it for what its worth.  A panacea?  Just an infection
    fighter as I understand it.  A drug?  I don't know.... I suppose
    anything we eat could be considered a drug.  After all, a hamburger
    "alters bodily function". 

    Natural?  Natural to me means 'nature made' rather than man
    synthesized.  Good or bad because its natural?  I think it all
    depends on what it is.

    I agree that something that does 'everything' is a suspicion arouser.
    However, the CLAIMS about something have no bearing on effectiveness.
    Either the stuff works as an infection fighter or not... or at least
    in some cases it might work. 

    Take it for what its worth. I reported in my earlier note what she told
    me. It strikes me as a harmless experiment (using the propolis that is)
    which, at the worst won't work.  

    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    >me. It strikes me as a harmless experiment (using the propolis that is)
    >which, at the worst won't work.  
    
    I have three bugbears about these so called natural cures ...
    ... the first is they tend to be promoted as being better than anything
        a doctor might prescribe without question
    ... the second is that natural is better for you than synthetic 
    ... and the quote above hits home the third -- saying that trying
        this stuff is a harmless experiment -- you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER
        whether this stuff is harmless or not -- if it were to produce an
        allergenic response closing up the airways, it could be fatal.
        When a doctor prescribes penicillin, he invariably today confirms
        that you are not allergic to it.  PDRs list most known side effects
        of prescribed and OTC drugs ... as do pharmacists.  Assistants in
        health food stores usually know vrey little about what they sell.
        They are just sales assistants.
    
    If you recommend this or other natural cures to people, you'd better
    be pretty darned sure that you know the negative reactions too ...
    otherwise a law suit might follow!
    
    If you think this is strong ... it is meant to be ... these products
    are not as innocent as they seem.
    
    Stuart

    I do have more than a casual knowledge about propolis.  I use it
    myself, my family uses it, and I have read books about propolis.
    I did not say I am a World renowned expert, just that I am not making
    off the cuff remarks without having some personal experience to back
    up my statement.
    Also, I have asked my family Dr. about using it.  He feels that at the
    worst it will have no effect, at the best it could help reduce the
    risk of getting infections... which, is just what the literature about
    it claims.
    
    I do have family members as well as friends who 'swear' by the stuff as
    helping to avoid colds and get over them.  Testimonials, yes, but so
    what? I don't need a double blind study to tell if something has a
    generally helpful effect on my health.  I will leave the Scientists and
    Dr's to their double blind studies.  I don't have the resources to
    conduct the studies before deciding whether to take something such as
    propolis. I use some common sense, read, and judge by the effect (or
    lack of effect) I see. Obviously I am not so stupid as to try this on
    something such as cyanide where there is a rather well established
    danger.
    
    I believe that its easy to assume that someone entering a note knows
    next to nothing about what they are saying.  In my case that assumption
    was an error. 
    
    I never said (or ment to imply) that propolis is better than anything a
    Dr. might prescribe.  I put forth some of my thoughts and experiences
    with this substance.  You, the readers can judge for yourselves whether
    its appropriate for you to explore further.
    
    I also have not recommended that anybody else try this.  They can judge
    for themselves.
    
    I also think its pre-judging people AGAINST natural methods of health
    care by pre-judging propolis.  HAVE YOU TRIED IT? HAVE YOU READ ABOUT
    IT OTHER THAN IN THE NOTES FILE?  Then, I dare say Stuart, some of the
    comments you make are as much hearsay as you suggest mine are. 
    
    I believe in a balance.  Doctors have their place.  Natural healing has
    its place.  The trick to achieve an appropriate balance, and, I am not
    saying that I know what that balance is, but I am working on trying to
    figure it out rather than just shooting natural healing down as having
    NO place in ones' health care.
    
    Jeff

    I have taken this discussion off line with Jeff, because I think
    I've created a battle ground here I didn't quite mean to.
    
    To Jeff, I apologise for implying you were ignorant of this substance
    possible side effects, but I stand by my comments about the knowledge
    of a lot of the people who sell this.
    
    I also stand by my comment that taking this stuff may not be a harmless
    experiment .. so beware if you do try it.
    
    Stuart