Conference moira::parenting_v3

Interesting topic

>    	do you as parents give "allowance" ?

	Yup.

>    	do you just give a set amount, no "chores" attached ?

	Yup.  We basically agree with your point.  You do
	things because it is your responsibility as a member 
	of this family.  You aren't "paid".  An allowance 
	is to help you learn to make decisions about money.

>    	are there some "chores" that you "pay" for ?

	Nope.

>    	for a 1st grader, what's a reasonable amount ?
    
	We started out with $1.25


The two situations that frustrated us the most, I think, were the kids wanting 
to buy something, particularly at the drug store, and the "book clubs" order 
froms that they would bring home from school.  The allowance eliminated the 
controversy.

Clay

    to .1
    
    thanks for your info.....I'm assuming the $1.25 was per week ???
    

    How do you handle kids wanting to buy something with their allowance
    that you consider "junky"?  Marc isn't old enough to get an allowance
    yet (although he recently learned the word "money" so it won't be long
    now :-)), but my husband still remembers his father yelling at him when
    he was 8 years old, or something, because he wanted to spend all his
    allowance on some toy that his father thought was junk.

    >> how do you handle kids wanting to buy something with their allowance
       that you consider "junky"?
    
    basically, the few times Matt's had money to spend, we discuss what 
    he wants to spend it on, I give him my opinion of the item (seems
    awfully expensive, not well made, what would you do with it, if you buy
    that you won't have any/much left for anything else, remind him if
    there are other things coming up [special event] that he may need $$ 
    for....)....there are a few things, most of which he knows about and 
    won't even ask for, that are just not allowed.....after that, it's his 
    money once I give it to him so I figure it's his decision and the only 
    way for him to really learn how to value what little he gets.....
    
    what's "junk" to us now was probably most valuable back then too !!
    

    We too give Sam an allowance, started last fall when he was learning
    about coins in kindergarten.  There are no strings attached, as far 
    as chores are concerned. 
    
    Sam is given a $1.00 each week, actually four quarters.  $.50 is his to
    spend immediately if he chooses. $.50 has to going into the 'saving'
    bank.  He is allowed to spend the money in the 'savings' bank or to
    move it to his spending bank when he has 'saved' $5.00.  This was if
    he wants to by gum, candy bar, etc. at the store he can spend his own
    money right away, but that eventually he has enough money to by some
    thing more substantial - usually a toy.  We just want him to understand
    the concept of saving up for something he really wants.
    
    Kathy

    Deb
    
    We give the kids $.20 a week per year of age, so for your son that
    would be $1.20.
    
    They are free to spend it as they wish. They also do chores but
    that is not related to their allowences.
    
    Once they are old enough to get a part time job the allowences have
    stopped.
    
    They can also do odd jobs around the house to earn money for special
    purchases.
    
    Bonnie

    We start ours on an allowance when they turn 4. We see no point before
    that as they have little *real* concept of money for goods. We give it
    regardless of whether or not they complete their expected chores,
    although there may be other consequences for not completing chores. We
    do pay extra for very big jobs (my 5 yr. old son shoveled the driveway
    all by himslef last winter. He wanted to, initially, but discovered it
    was quite a big job. Yet, he stuck to it for nearly 3 hrs total time!
    We did pay him for that.). We do not tell them what to or not to buy,
    within the limits they already know (certain types of toys, etc., they
    know we disapprove of), but would discuss the merits of something, and
    then let them make the final decision....and live with their choices.
    So far, they've only chosen decent stuff, like Legos, but I'm sure that
    they'll make unwise choices sooner or later.
    
    --dave--

    We give allowance on the concept that the children have responsibilites
    and if they are done without us nagging then they get the allowance. 
    Same as if I show up and do my responsibilities at work I get my pay
    check.  However, there are additional things around the house that when
    asked to do get done without added allowance.  This is where we get the
    certain things which we as a family have to pitch in and help out to do
    without strings attached concept.  
    
    My daughter is 13 now and I have just increased her allowance from $5
    to $10 a week because she does so much around the house and without
    being asked.  Her main responsibilities is her room -- which by the way
    I NEVER have to ask her to clean she keeps it that way since she was 8
    and started getting allowance AND she spring/fall cleans it, empting
    dishwasher, helping with the laundry.  She will take it upon herself to
    vacuum, dust, wash floors and begin supper now that summer is here. 
    She also does a fair amount of babysitting for her little 4 year old
    brother without pay too.
    
    As far as the 4 year old.  He wanted to know where his allowance was
    when I was handing her sister hers sooo, I said okay you will get $1.00
    if you keep your room clean and pick up your toys in the play area.  It
    is working.  When I ask him to clean his room he scoots right to it and
    cleans and it's not a battle any longer to pick his toys up.  Oh, he
    takes pride in getting the newspaper from the box at night cause he
    says that's his job now and he often wants to help out cleaning the
    kitchen up -- hope it lasts!
    
    Just wanted to share on how successful it has been now that our
    daughter is older.
    

I'd just like to share an example on *not* letting a kid blow his/her
allowance.

My ex-husband had never been allowed to spend any money as a kid.  Birthday and 
Christmas cards were opened by his mother and she would buy an "appropriate"
gift with the money.  If she thought the amount was inappropriate, she would
put some away for the future.  However, the kid didn't know she was doing this.
I saw this in action with my ex-husband's 8 year old brother. Whenever he 
wanted something, he would ask his parents and they would either
buy it or say no.  They rarely gave an explanation for the no.

The result was that my ex-husband and his little brother had no concept of
value or shopping or saving or that a money supply is finite.  He just
didn't understand money at all; he never figured out that he had to work for
money.  He just kind of expected it to appear.

This was very different from my family, where we received an allowance during
the school year, but had to work for summer money.  When we were little, we
would walk dogs, wash cars, take littler kids to the playground, anything we
could think of.  When we were bigger, we got jobs, unless we had planned to
take the summer off and had saved enough money from the school year.  I never
did that, but one of my sisters did.  They also took us to the bank when we
were old enough and helped us open savings accounts.  (I think I was about 
10).

I remember the Christmas when my brother was 3.  He had saved 27 cents to buy
us all Christmas presents.  My mother took him shopping and helped him figure
out what he could buy.  She offered to "loan" him money, but he wouldn't take
it.  He managed to buy 5 presents with 27 cents.  (I got a bamboo grasshopper -
it cost him 3 cents).  He was *so* proud when we opened our presents from him.
I still have the grasshopper, thirty years later.

    Our son is seven, just finished first grade. He gets $1 per week
    allowance. If he falls off precipitiously on doing his chores, he
    starts getting docked 25 cents for each lapse. This happens seldom.
    
    50 cents goes directly to "long-term savings" -- untouchable, for
    college. 25 cents goes to "short-term savings" -- things he wants to
    save up to buy. 25 cents is spending money, or can be put to the other
    two funds.  He also collects soft drink cans (from parks, streets, etc
    -- we don't buy soft drinks) and gets the nickel deposit back. Same
    allocation. Ditto for birthday money. 
    
    In the year or so we've had this scheme, he bought half of a $50
    nintendo cartridge (this was a special deal where we said we'd split),
    a $10 "string racer" game, and is close to having the 40-odd he needs
    for a Ninja turtle technodrome.  We tell him what we think of his
    planned purchase (thumbs up for the string racer, yuck on aesthetic and
    monetary grounds for the technodrome), but we tell him it's his money
    and he'll have to make the decision and live with the consequences.
    
    The two girls are too young to deal with it yet.
    
    Kit

    
    
    	Mind you, this is not a flame or any kind of derogatory
    	remark, but curiosity only and because I know the time
    	will come when allowances will be a decision I'll have
    	to make (albeit far away)
    
    	What are the reasons behind the parents decision to give
    	their child money regardless of whether they do "chores"
    	or not??  I know it's been said that it's to "learn the
    	value of money" but never in my life have I been given 
    	money each week without working for it.... Does that make
    	sense???
    
    	/Kim

    Kim,
    
    Ours get their allowance (technically) "no strings attached". We
    explain to them that as they are an important contributing member of
    our household, that they are entitled to share in the "wealth" of the
    household. They are expected (we explain) to do their share of the work
    (which mom and dad decide on) cheerfully and reasonably promptly. So
    far (about 18 mos., in my son's case), we have never had a major
    problem. No, he does not always do everything he is supposed to
    immediately and cheerfully, but he usually needs only gentle reminders.
    The chores *do* get done. He is usually disciplined in some other
    manner if he refuses to do his share (this rarely becomes a serious
    problem). They have all grown up knowing we do not tolerate rebellion
    on this topic....you live here, you work here! What are their chores?
    Joshua (will be 6 in August): feed the dog, give her fresh water, let
    her in and out anytime she needs it (sometimes we need to remind of
    each of these); straighten his bed each morning (not so good on this,
    but improving); pick up his pajamas and bfing them downstaris to the
    laundry (does without reminding 50% of time); bring in outdoor toys at
    end of day, or when told (reasonable good about this); set the table;
    help empty dishwasher; help fold clothes; plus....anything misc. asked
    to do.
    Carrie (just 4): shares the dog duties, except letting her out and in
    (can't open the door!); shares settign table, folds laundry, empties
    dishwasher, *loves* to help put away groceries; gets herself completely
    dressed in morning (she is develpoping an amazingly good sense of
    coordinating clothes!); brings pajamas downstaris in morning. 
    
    Daniel, age 2 helps in whatever we we ask him to, but has no set tasks
    yet. He is eager to do most anything he is capable of though.
    
    Tasks required are not overwhelming. By not setting exp[ectations too
    high, we do not set them up for failure. They actually enjoy helping
    (most of the time!), and so we see no reason to link allowance to
    chors, since it simply is not an issue (yet..........).
    
    --dave--
    
    BTW, don't think I said in last note. Joshua gets $1.25/week, Carrie
    gets .75/week. Both save for what they want, without an awful lot of
    prompting. Josh is learnign well about cost of things. He found a $10
    bill in a parking lot the other day (why don't *I* ever find these
    things??!!??), and spent great quantities of time just figuring our how
    many or wht types of Legos he could purchase with it! Then choose quite
    well, and went out to get what he wanted, very proud of himself for the
    way he planned and figured it all.

    
    re. 12
    
    I believe that everyone in the family has to help out and nobody
    should expect to be paid for doing chores. I will not pay my child to 
    clean up her mess and I don't expect to get a nickel for each
    diaper change! Chores are facts of life, not optional jobs!                  
    Money doesn't come from trees, but kids can't grow up thinking
    that they should be paid for everything they do.
    
    I think most parents that give out allowances without strings
    attached DO expect their kids to do their chores, but they do
    not want to associate a monetary value to the chores.
    
    I think if I don't want to pay my kid to help with housework,
    then the only way to teach her about money matters is to
    give her allowances. I never had allowances, a big mistake
    on my parents' part. It takes a long time to unlearn bad habits.
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    
    	RE: .13
    
    	Thanks.... I guess I've just become accustomed to equating
    	chores with money.  I assume this means that if they didn't
    	help around the house, you'd still allow them the money?
    
    	/Kim ...who was never really forced to help around the house
    	     but who will make sure her daughter does (after seeing
    	     what it's done to me)

    re .15
    
    I plan to start giving Alex an allowance ($1.25/wk) this September
    when she enters first grade, and it will be a "no strings" type.  I
    feel strongly that each family member should perform age-appropriate
    chores to help out the family, relatively cheerfully and for free!  (I
    have a life-sized picture of the pay-per-chore system backfiring as
    soon as the kid decides the garbage is too stinky and he has enough
    money for today....)
    
    If Alex won't do an assigned chore, or reasonable non-scheduled
    request, then she'll get a privilege taken away or get a punishment
    that is somehow "crime"-related.  The allowance won't be withheld unless
    she violates some *allowance* rule we've agreed upon.  I think the idea
    of 50% going into savings is a good one.  Not sure how any of this will
    really play in Peoria (the September application of my theories)!
    
    Leslie

re: .12

>  never in my life have I been given money each week without working for
>  it.... Does that make sense???

     Sure does make sense, and I'm glad you brought up the point, because I
think that both views are valid.  As I mentioned in an earlier note, we are
among the "no strings attached" camp.  However, for the sake of completeness,
we do have a non-monetary system (poker chips to be exact) that matches task
completions to privileges.  I suspect most "no strings attached" folks have
something similar, but probably not as exotic or formal as ours.  Perhaps
some day when/if I have time I'll describe the system completely.
     The most important reason, in our view, is that we believe that each
person has a responsibility as a member of the family to do things that
contribute to the running of the household.  You do those things because it's
your responsibility, not because you will get paid for it.  You do NOT have
the option of forgoing your allowance because you don't feel like doing
something.  And those responsibilities will stay there (in fact probably
increase) even when you are no longer dependent on your allowance for
spending money, and can make more money babysitting or mowing lawns.
     An issue you have to be prepared for if you link allowance with task
completions is that the linkage may be used against you e.g.  "That's not my
responsibility.  If I do it, how much will I get paid for it?"  IF IT GETS
OUT OF HAND, it can lead to a value system that places a monetary value on
everything, even courtesy type favors.
     The reason that I emphasized "if it gets out of hand" is that I don't
think that "getting out of hand" is inevitable.  I remember picking weeds in
the garden for $.25 an hour (pretty good wages -- this was when a quarter
was worth something!), and I don't think it messed me up.  When my dad was
working in the garden, I often did also, with no expectation that I'd get
paid.
     I had never thought about Dave's "share the wealth" philosophy, but I
think it's a good point, because it's the flip side of the "you have
responsibilities to the family" philosophy -- the flip side being "you have
some privileges as a result of being a member of this family."

Clay

    When I was growing up, we NEVER had allowances or spending money or
    anything like that.  If we were DOING something in particular, we had
    to ask for money - sometimes got it, sometimes not.  If we wanted to
    stop at the 5&10 on the way home from school, we never had money to do
    that.  We did ALWAYS have very specific chores, and there was no
    getting out of them.  We never got paid for doing anything 'extra' - or
    ever received any type of money to 'manage' or just whittle away.
    
    I think it ended up with two very negative results;  a) Because I
    really WANTED to stop at the 5&10 on the way home and get something, I
    resorted to shoplifting or stealing money from my parents.  I was only
    about 7-8 when this started.... no other way to get money!!  and b)
    Since I never learned how to manage money and save, I'm **TERRIBLE**
    with money now.  Burns a hole right through my pocket!
    
    Chris is 6 - he doesn't have an allowance.  Probably mostly just
    because we never even thought about it!!  We will start by the time he
    goes back to school, and probably sooner -- thanks to this note!
    
    So anyway, even if chores are complete to perfection, I think there's a
    big benefit to making money available to kids to learn to manage and to
    help steer them away from 'other means' of getting money.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    Patty

Ok, there's been a lot of discussion of how much kids get per week as allowance,
whether it's dependent on completion of chores, requirements that some gets put
aside for long-term needs (aka college :-)  From reading the previous replies, 
in terms of spending money, it seems that some kids get low (net) allowances, 
but get (a lot) more from present money and/or other optional chores.  Others 
get (all of) a higher base allowance, but it's their only source of income.  I'm 
finding it hard to judge what the typical "disposable income" is.... :-)

So here's another view of the question, (please, still for a 1st grader!)

	-How much *spendable* money do you feel the child should have available 
	monthly, on the average, from ALL sources of spendable income?  (that 
	is, including not just allowance, but birthday/holiday presents, other 
	paid chores, etc)  Describe both amount saved vs what's available for 
	spending immediately, if you divide it that way....
	
	-What is it supposed to pay for?  Toys/souvenirs?  Snacks (as in vending
	machines or ice cream trucks)?  Visits to 5&10, toystores, and the like?
	Presents for parents, siblings and other family members?  Clothes, 
	accessories, or other expenses beyond what you'd normally provide (or
	approve :-)?  

	-How long should a kid be expected to save for toys they'd normally
	want (be it Transformer, action figure, Barbie doll clothes, or Lego
	set)?  Should this require saving (almost) every penny they get?  How
	often do you buy these things for them?  

Maybe there's a consensus on these issues, rather than on the actual number
of dollars per week?
		Helen

    Helen,
    
    I think the intent of your original question is a bit clearer now.
    
    Our children may spend up to 90% of their allowance any time they
    choose (we require them to follow Biblical tithing...giving 10%... to
    the church). they are strongly encouraged to have a goal in mind for
    their money, whether it be to have enough for a major toy, or to have
    enough for their brother's birthday present. Sometimes they manage to
    wait patiently for that goal, sometimes not. W've found that Josh
    usually maxes out after waiting for 4-6 weeks, and then wants to spend
    his accumulated wealth on something. Carrie usually follows his lead.
    They don't get much for gifts, overall I would say maybe $25 a piece
    for birthdays and maybe $30 for Christmas. They are encouraged to use
    these for something major that they might otherwise not be able to wait
    long enough to save for. (for example: Carrie got $30 for her recent
    birthday. We also had a $5 certificate for the toy store. So, for an
    additional $10, which mom and dad chipped in, she got a Littel Tykes
    kitchen, shich she has been wanting for some time now). 
    
    They do not get tons of opportunites to earn additonal cash. They can
    shovel snow when it is of a depth that necessitates this (only 3x last
    winter). They can pick up fallen apples in the back yard before I mow
    (pretty much only applicable in Sept.). They can help with leaves in
    the fall (we get almost none in our yard, for some reason...our
    neighbors seem to get them all!!!). As they get older, other things may
    become more feasible (washing the car, weeding the garden, vacuuming
    the pool, etc.)
    
    So...bottom line is: Joshua, on average probably has betwen $1.75 and
    $2.00 per week to spend as he pleases. Carrie, on average probably has
    between $1.25 and $1.50 per week to spend as she pleases.
    
    We do encourage wise choices, but do not force them. Unless a
    toy/product is something we feel strongly against for its implications
    (promoting excessive violence, or that sort of thing) they will be free
    to buy it, although we may warn them about it's shoddiness or too high
    price. They'll learn best about wise consumer choices this way, we feel
    (we hope!!).
    
    They are not required yet to spend their money on clothes or
    accesories, unless it is clearly above that which they would reasonably
    need. This may or may not change. I think we will probably alwyas
    provide the essential wardrobe stuff (underwear, socks, pj's, shoes,
    coats, and several appropriate outfits), but at some point they may be
    givena a clothing allowance to help them learn to purchase clothing
    wisely, too. This would be for clothes which were over and above what
    they really "needed" and would be for things they "wanted". They are
    also not expected, at this tiem, to buy gifts for family out of their
    allowance, but that is something we may begin encouraging in the near
    future.
    
    Hope this made it clearer to you what *we* do in our family. I'm sure
    that's there are as many other approaches to this as there are
    families!
    
    --dave--

    I'm curious with this helping children spend/buy .... do you also help
    them Shop for something to find the best price ?  Or encourage them to
    look for a comparable, but cheaper brand?  Is there an age that this is
    reasonable to start?  I know that lots of times I drag my kids out of
    the Early Learning Center and down to J.R.'s where they can get twice
    as much for the same money.  I'm not sure that they really understand
    what's happening though - any thoughts on this?
    
    Patty

    I remember feeling very smug about my unit-prices lesson with Alex (who
    is 6 1/2) at the grocery store one day.  I'd found a devious bit of
    pricing where the 6-pack ("economy size") of microwave popcorn was
    actually more expensive per lb. than the standard 3-pack.  So I made a
    very big deal about it, explaining that if we wanted to buy a whole
    pound of it, it would be much cheaper to buy lots of little packages
    than a few big ones.  I threw in some indignation at this marketing
    ploy, too.
    
    Now I get a big lecture from Miss Comparison Shopper every time we go
    down the micropop aisle!
    
    Leslie

    
    re .22
    
    	In most supermarkets, you can find the unit price, along with the
    cost of the items. Unit price is the number to check, in case 
    there is a marketing ploy.
    
    
    Eva 

re .23 (Eva)

> Unit price is the number to check, in case there is a marketing ploy.

I agree, except when they use the marketing ploy of using different units for
different variations on the same item! (count, weight, volume...)

Couldn't resist that one...

Jill

    Re .23
    
    > re .22
    
    > In most supermarkets, you can find the unit price....
    > Unit price is the number to check, in case there is a marketing ploy.
    
    I deleted my tacky knee-jerk defensive response, which was in here for
    a couple of hours, but I wanted to point out that in .22 I *was*
    talking about unit prices:
    
    .22> ...my unit-prices lesson with Alex... if we wanted to buy a whole
    .22> pound of it,...
    
    The unit in this case was a pound.  I just assumed most people in here
    are aware of the (usually orange) unit price tags on supermarket
    shelves.
    
    Leslie

    Yes, I've noticed that one thing will be "unit-priced" in dollars per
    quart and the other in cents per ounce...
    
    		-John Bishop

    A coule things here.....
    
    a recent conversation in the store with AJ went something like this:
    
    AJ:  Mom I want that toy
    me:  Not today AJ, mom's broke
    AJ:  So if it's broke, then fix it mom, I want that toy!
    
    Guess I'll have to think some to of these adult phrases through before
    rattling them off so freely!
    
    In our house AJ's (he's 4.5) allowance is not so much real money, but
    after he does certain things, like make his bed (OK it's not perfect
    but he'll get it right eventually) till then I just quietly tidy it up
    when he's out of site and don't say anything.  He also is responsible
    for making sure his laundry makes it to the hamper, that he puts his
    dishes in the sink and other small tasks.  For each of these he gets a
    sort of point system, we use colored chips. He gets a colored chip for
    each task, and when you have a "cupful", which is a small coffeecup, we
    "cash" them in and go to the store for a toy, or two or three.  He
    loves the little things sold at the Christmas Tree shop, and I just
    like going there in general so it works out well.
    
    He has a fire truck which is also a bank, he is allowed to keep any
    money found on the floor, or in the clothes dryer, and his dad is a
    great one for leaving change around!  His grandparents will frequently
    give him some loose pocket change for just being a good kid, and he's
    most anxious to put it in "his bank".  He also takes some of his found
    money (I think sometimes my husband spills money on purpose), and we go
    to Kmart to ride the mechanical merry go round.  We explain to him he
    needs 25 cents, and show him a quarter, two dimes and a nickel, or
    count out 25 pennies etc. to be able to make the horses work.
    
    A friend of ours has two girls now age 7 and 11, they were given
    allowances several years ago and "blew it" on the vending machines at
    the supermarket.  They soon learned that a quarter didn't buy much in
    these machines.  Their mother has decided this year not to hire a
    sitter for the summer while she's at work, she out roughly 9am to 1pm
    as a visiting nurse and is allowed to do her paperwork at home.  For
    this responsibility the girls have had a large increase in allowance,
    pretty much the money she would have paid a sitter, and they are
    required to do certain household tasks like unload or load the
    dishwasher, walk the dog, clothes into or out of the dryer, make their
    beds and clean their rooms.  She said it has made both girls much more
    mature and responsible this way.  For me I can't wait til he's old
    enought.  She has a neighbor who is "on call", they can call her at
    anytime the mother isn't home if they have a crisis.