Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the testing (I
    think it's spelled "Gesell"), but it sounds as if there's something
    wrong with the people who administer the testing in your school system!
    
    I think the kindergarten cutoff date (8/31) pre-empts any haggling you
    might want to do about your daughter.  That's usually not negotiable. 
    But I would definitely question their "reasons".  (A clockwise vs.
    counterclockwise circle?!  Is it *round* or not?!)  Lots of kids can
    write their names at 4 1/2, but lots of kids can't/won't/don't care to
    try.  I think it's unreasonable to use that as a prerequisite to
    Kindergarten!
    
    It seems the administrators were in a great big hurry to get the
    testing over with, when it came to your son.  They took his answer ("I
    don't know her name") as a nonsequitur and left it at that?
    
    Other noters may (I hope) have some concrete advice about how to work
    around these #$$%^&* people, but I wanted to let you know that I don't
    think there's anything wrong with you.  (Or your kids, based on the
    testing performance you noted!)
    
    Leslie
           

    From a friend's experience...
    
    She was told that in order to "pass" the test, her daughter needed to
    test at a 5 1/2 year old level, at the time the test is administered. 
    This district has a 12/31 cutoff...so, in order to be pass the test, a
    child who was born in Jan or Feb, would have to test at a 5 1/2 year
    old level a month or so after their 4 th birthday, to be admitted to
    school.  The idea was to have exceptions to the cutoff admitted because
    they were "advanced", not just equivalent to the other kids.  There
    were three tests, intellectual, psychological/social, and physical. 
    You need to pass all three...if you don't, there's an appeal process.
    I don't know what that entails, because her daughter "failed"(I use the
    term with hesitation") the physical test (couldn't hop on one foot
    acros the room, or something like that), and they decided not to pursue
    it further.
    
    I don't know if this sheds any light on your situation or not; but it
    could just be that they're holding her to a "higher standard" than the
    average kid.
    
    Susan

    This is why I feel the 1-12 grade system needs some changing.  If
    a child is held back, the stigma can be really bad.  It creates
    hostility from parents.  Who wants to be told their child isn't learning
    up to par, up to par meaning the average of others of his age. 
     If they're promoted, but not ready, then you have 9th graders that
    can only read at 2nd grade level.
    
    I think with the higher number of kids attending preschool, most
    are learning what kids learned usually learned in Kindergarten 10
    years ago.  So what's average now could be higher than what was
    then.  
    
    I personally do not really enjoy doing homework with my kids, but
    I force myself to be more involved.  I like it once I get started,
    'cause I love seeing their improvement right before my eyes.  They
    love my involvement too.  We both love the good marks on papers.
     I know of schools that are almost requiring parental involvement
    in the classroom now.  My kids' school is one of them.  I like it.
     It makes a big difference in the kids' work and attitude.  
    
    Luckily, their dad is a real education promoter.  He gives them
    spelling tests during the summer.  Math work, too.  He's more or
    should I say, less lazy than me in working those books with the
    kids.
    Funny, 'cause I wanted to be a school teacher and I do like teaching.
    
    Ask the test administrators for explanations.  I recall my daughter's
    2nd grade teacher showing me writing papers of my daugter and compared
    them to other students.  That's what the grading was based on. 
    I could understand how my daughter's needed improvement.
    
    Whenever a teacher has a student that causes more attention than
    she has time to handle, that student, unfortunately, is labeled
    lacking.  It's totally unfair.  But our education dept. has no funds
    for the teachers needed to teach these children.  
    
    Learning doesn't need to be only one way. Students and parents should
    have more options.                                                      
    

    
    Chris couldn't write his whole name till he was ~6, and even still
    sometimes needs to copy it.  I think he's a REAL smart kid - he could
    just care less!
    
    As for the circle .... my husband makes his circles 'backwards'.  He's
    left-handed and it's more comfortable.  I picked it up from him, and
    now I do -- it IS more comfortable - follows the natural flow of
    writing more.  Or maybe I'm just 'not ready' to be an adult yet! 
    PLEASE!!!  
    
    We had some concerns/problems with Chris last fall and earlier this
    year with his school.  Not sure what level he was at, where he should
    be, and why he was not excelling where he was.
    
    I think the most IMPORTANT thing that we learned was to Listen to Chris
    and his work and see where HE was comfortable and where HE excelled and
    felt confident and happy.  He's a year behind other kids his age - but
    he's also eager to learn now, and confident that he CAN do it.  When he
    was WITH kids his age, he was so overwhelmed he was miserable.  REALLY
    miserable.
    
    So........my best advice is to watch your daughter, listen to her
    teacher(s), and swallow your pride if your child has to be 'behind
    average' ... it affected us more than we thought or would admit!!!! 
    The smiles are worth it in the end.
    
    

    
    re. 0
    
    One question - do you believe your child is ready?
    Apparently, your child will not be old enough by August 31, how can 
    you convince the school system to make an exception for your child.
    Does your kid feel comfortable being the youngest in the class?
    Can she fend for herself?
    
    Here are some of the questions that my daughter was asked during
    the kindergarten screening test last year.
    	1. Her address and her phone number.
        2. Where do mom and dad work?
        3. What does policemen do?
        4. Make something with the blocks
    	5. Complete the picture
        6. Writing the alphabet, numbers and her name
    
    One point I don't agree with you is that - I do not wait for 
    teachers to teach my child things if my kid is ready;
    when it comes to my child's education, I am pro-active.
    My daughter knew how to write her first name when she was 3 1/2
    and her full name at age 4. 
    I taught my daughter how to write her name, I taught her how
    to add and subtract, how to read, taught her to read music,
    taught her about electricity, etc.
    
    This is not meant to be a personal attact. It bothers me
    a lot that parents don't put time and energy into their kids'
    education and expect the school system to do everything.
    I am a working parent too and I can find time to educate my
    kid. 
    
    Eva 

    Reaching back into memories my old childhood development courses: 
    
    Making circles backwards, in combination with the rest of the test
    results, indicates that the fine motor skills needed for reading
    and writing are not quite ready yet.  Not that there's anything
    wrong with the child, though if it continues it can be a marker
    for certain kinds of learning disability. And taken alone it
    wouldn't be enough.  But the rest of the test results appear to be
    consistent with that interpretation. 
    
    The answer to the picture of the girl having her hair brushed also
    indicated a lack of readiness for school -- since the child still
    has to have a name to identify the figures in the picture, the
    ability to generalize isn't quite ready for the kinds of
    abstraction that reading and writing require.  Again, this doesn't
    mean there's anything wrong with the child.  There could be, but
    the child is probably just not ready yet.  
    
    My limited experience as a teacher and more extensive experience
    as a mother leads me to think that the child with the results
    reported on the Gessell tests would not be very happy starting a
    regular kindergarten program right now.  The child would have to
    work very hard to keep up and would have a high likelihood of
    growing discouraged or viewing him/herself as a failure.  
    
    --bonnie

We are "bracing" ourselves for a similar situation ... Juli's birthday
is 9/2 ... the cutoff date in Shrewsbury, MA is 8/31 ... NO EXCEPTIONS!

Although Juli's just coming up on her 2nd birthday, Jim/I are using this
"time" to collect all the data and identify some recourses ... trying to
get some bearings and a "potential" plan for when the time comes, WE'LL
have "some" direction(s) to go.

Whether or not Juli would have qualified for public, "parttime" kindergarten
... Jim/I would STILL have pursued private, fulltime kindergarten.  For two
reasons:  1) I'm not happy with what I see coming out of our town's
public kindergarten system/curriculum; and  2) Shrewsbury has messed up
the schedule SO BADLY (4-days a week, except when a holiday and add all
the monthly teacher's conventions, and don't overlook the rainy days!
...) that I could NEVER arrange a sitter/daycare to sync with Shrewsbury's
kindergarten schedule!!!!  

Private fulltime kindergarten (today) is extremely expensive -- $170/week!  
It is a combination of academia AND play.  Jim/I have it narrowed down to
two choices ... one is more feasible than the other.  I have already placed
Juli on their waiting list (nothing says WE HAVE TO do this in 1993, but 
it does say we will probably have a slot reserved there, if we so decide).

I would, however, have preferred to get Juli into Shrewsbury's public
first grade ... but the "cutoff" date is used for BOTH kindergarten AND
first grade.  The two recourses to this is:

	. IF JULI PASSES the Gesell testing (or whatever!), she CAN
	  attend Northboro's public school system's (kindergarten or)
	  FIRST grade (K: $2,500/yr, 1st: $5,000/year - and no busing).  
	  The appeal process is NOT available to children who don't 
	  meet the cutoff date. Jim/I will flex our hours such to drop her
	  off and pick her up ... OR ...

	. continue fulltime PRIVATE schooling for BOTH kindergarten
	  AND first grade

... and then transition her into Shrewsbury's public second grade.

The above is TOTALLY contingent on Juli passing the testing (for public 
kindergarten or 1st grade - testing is NOT required for private kindergarten!) 
AND OUR BELIEF that she is ready for kindergarten in 1993.  If we suspect
she is not ready (academically, physically OR socially), we wouldn't want
to pursue an early entry anyway.

I know of a couple kids who didn't pass the testing.  One child (in
Shrewsbury) attended special classes (during the summer), was retested
and then "marginally" passed and although she seemed to like going to
kingergarten and all, I do think she had to struggle a bit to keep up with
the other kids.

I do think that kids are "smarter" today than they were 10 years
ago!  I started school knowing my alphabet, numbers and writing my name
(back in the mid-50's), however ...  Juli's NOT the only child "today" who 
can count, identify some colors and knows her alphabet from A-I and P-Z at the
age of 22 months.  She speaks sentences and corrects context (I deliberately
tell her it's an apple and she clearly tells me it's a banana!).  Do I want
a school administrator telling ME in another three years that Juli CAN'T
attend kindergarten JUST BECAUSE she was born 1 day and 4 hours too late?!! 
-- you had best give me some darn good OTHER concrete reasons ... and I'm 
still going to have recourses ready and available to ME (private schooling,
if necessary), because I, THE PARENT, should be able to do what I think is
best for my child.

I wonder if you could have your child RE-tested in an adjacent town, who
might be willing to accept your child if your town doesn't "pass her"
(e.g. Northboro/Shrewsbury)?  Also, I would be sitting outside the
school administrator's office with a very long list of questions ... not
to mention my expectation that they provide MY CHILD with some type of 
recourse (summer classes, special education program, etc.) ... and not 
just telling me to "come back NEXT YEAR" and try again (although you can't
do too much about missing the cutoff date ... you should, however, be able
to do something about a child who fails the test and MET the cutoff date!)

Dottie

>    I just had my daughter "Gizell" (sp?) tested for $40 I might add,

I'm glad other noters are brighter than I am.  My first reaction was "Gee, 
doesn't s/he know how to spell his/her daughter's name?"   8^)

Unless you have some independent reason to believe that your child is 
unusually intellectually and socially ready for school, I'd recommend not 
pushing it.  I think that the consequences of starting too early are far worse 
than the consequences of starting too late.

>    	      I'm also thinking that
>    	      they don't consider society today, where BOTH parents have
>    	      to work.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that point.  School is not daycare, and 
children don't go to school for the benefit of the parents.  While I 
appreciate the hassle and expense of daycare, I think that the CHILD'S 
welfare should be the major, if not only consideration.

Clay

    
    re: .8 
    
    Clay expressed my sentiments on this topic exactly (particularly wrt
    the child's welfare being the main consideration).  And, I too,
    couldn't figure out why the basenoter didn't know how to spell 
    her daughter's name on first reading!
    
    Carol

    Include me among those who did a double-take on poor little Gizelle!
    
    And what's this about "making circles backwards"? It never occurred to
    me that people made circles other than clockwise, but I can tell I'm in
    trouble when even Bonnie Randall Schutzman, that paragon of clarity,
    common sense, and humane values, starts telling me that at age 44 I not
    only don't know how to make circles, but am also too dumb to know it!
    
    Kit

    
    Are these tests administered to all children, or only to children
    (such as Gizelle ;)  )  whose parents are attempting to bypass the
    minimum age restriction?
    
    In the former case, I think that the purpose of conducting such
    assessments should not be to *screen* and bar children from
    participating in classes with children of their own age; instead,
    I think that it should be used to direct the teachers about how
    to effectively teach each child.
    
    In practice I realize how difficult it must be in a large
    classroom, but children could be grouped according to learning
    styles and instruction could be individualized for each group
    (e.g. visual/auditory vs visual/tactile vs ...).
    
    In any case, unless the child is severely delayed (certainly not
    indicated by drawing circles in the "wrong" direction when no
    expectation was placed on them a-priori), I think it would
    benefit the child more to be challenged a bit in the classroom;
    this is in fact the basic premise of "mainstreaming" in Special
    Education -- give the child the desired peer role models rather
    than an artificial environment with low expectations.
    
       /Jim
    
    
    

    Last evening I found myself disproportionately outraged (not like me at
    all, right?  ;-)  ) about the counter/clockwise circle test.  It seems
    to me that the direction a circle is drawn would have to be heavily
    influenced by handedness; is the basenoter's child left-handed?
    
    We also don't know if the task was presented verbally-only, or whether
    the problem was presented as "copy this shape," or even "watch me make
    a circle.  Would you do the same for me?"   I would think the distinctions
    (between "reproduce this shape" and "do exactly as I do") might influence
    expectations and results.
     
    If it was in the form of a question, I see similar distinctions between 
    "write an O" and "draw a circle".
    
    My gut reaction is still: You wanted a circle, you got something
    approximately round, she's only 4 1/2, why are you expecting her to
    know that Os are traditionally written counterclockwise???  Gimme a
    break!
    
    I've asked Alex's kindergarten teacher to see if she could come up with
    any info on this aspect of the Gesell (she thinks it sounds fishy too,
    but we're trying to keep open minds... or in my case, pry mine
    open...).
    
    Leslie
     

    I had my twins Gesell tested as a requirement for entering 1st grade
    here in NH.  I must say, even though they both "passed", I though the
    whole routine to be a bunch of bunk.
    
    The test consists of some activities like building with building
    blocks, drawing the missing parts of a figure like the left arm to
    match the existing right arm, the left half of a bowtie etc., and some
    other stuff that supposedly shows you how "ready" the child's mind is
    to accept the ino it will get in first grade.
    
    Even tho they both did OK, as I was being stepped through this test
    with the school counselors, I sat there saying to myself this is really
    ridiculous -- how can this stuff tell you enough about my child to know
    how mature and ready they are for first grade?  And I dismissed it. 
    Because I know they're ready.  They'll be SEVEN in December of this
    year, so they're well on the older side of their classmates.
    
    In all honesty though I would advise caution against pushing your child
    into a situation she may not be up to.  I would wait a year and allow
    the child to be the older in the group rather than the younger.  In
    fact, my youngest was born on Aug 31, 1989, and when it comes time to
    put him in school, I very well may wait a year.  Especially because
    he's a boy, and boys tend to mature more slowly than girls.  (Don't
    make this issue a rathole!)  
    
    Also, school is not daycare.  WHile you may be tempted to breathe a
    sigh of relief when your child finally gets to school age because of
    the finances 8*), consider the long term.  It may be better for her if
    you didn't puch.
    

    
    My son will be five in October.  He was just tested for nursery school.
    He went through a screening which consisted of him putting a puzzle
    together, drawing a circle, some lines the same way a book had them,
    and talking with the teachers that were testing him.  He passed the
    test and starts nursery school in September.  We would rather have our
    son go through this then start school and then be held back.
    
      I have never heard of a backwards circle.  You would think that the
    teachers would be more concerned that a child knew what a circle was
    rather then which way she drew it.
    
      							carol 

    re: Gessell test
    
    I'm really doing well today, I guess, if people thought I called
    them stupid.  I'm sorry.  I thought I'd said three different times
    that it had nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence.  Learning
    disabilities have nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. 
    (One of the tragic things about undiagnosed learning disabilities
    is that inside the illiterate hostile dropout there's often a
    genius trapped inside an inability to make the letters on a page
    turn into words.)
    
    No one item on the Gessell test means anything by itself.  You
    have to take them all in combination.  That includes the circles. 
    Taken together, the Gessell test can give a ballpark estimate of
    what stage of development an individual's analytical, reasoning,
    generalization, and symbolic processing.  It's like trying to make
    sure a child can walk before you expect them to learn to dance. 
    
    For instance, if a child's brain hasn't matured to the point of
    being able to understand what an abstract symbol is, the child
    won't care much about letters because they can't connect them to
    words and in turn to real objects.  And if they don't care about
    letters, a great deal of school is boring, or they start to think
    they're failures because they can't understand something their
    mind just aren't equipped to handle yet. 
    
    The skills involved in being able to complete a missing part of a
    body, for instance, are more complex than you'd think.  They
    involve being able to relate the picture to the real world, to
    compare the picture to a generalized image of that object, and to
    extrapolate what the missing piece should look like.  When Steven
    took a short version of the Gessell test for 4.5-year-olds, for
    instance, he knew the man was missing an arm, but he could only
    supply a stick-arm.  This doesn't sound important but it's an
    underlying skill necessary for being able to manipulate abstract
    concepts -- and a word is an abstract concept.  
    
    But if a school official tries to keep a child out of a particular
    level based strictly on the fact the child draws a circle
    backwards (and I think "backwards" does vary according to whether
    you're right- or left-handed), they're misusing the test.  But the
    test results reported in the base note were consistent with an
    interpretation that the child isn't ready for school yet.  Though
    again, the three items taken alone aren't conclusive. 
    
    --bonnie 

If you're interested in the more general issue of when to start a child in 
school, as opposed to the  theme of this topic, which is basically metrics and 
testing techniques, see notes 622 and 786.

Though some of the testing techniques may seem a bit strange, IMO, it's better 
than a completely arbitrary system.

Clay 

    Re .8, .9, .10, .11, .13:
    
    It seems that people do not know how to read.  I had no problem when I 
    read the base note.  But One thing that did catch my eye was the fact
    that all of the above said "basenote", and not the correct way of
    base note.  Maybe you should look into some testing for yourselves.
    
    As for the original notes topic, I am the to be step-father of this
    particular little girl.  The way I view this testing is a simple 2
    step process.  One, fire the idiots running the test, because who is 
    to say that their judgement is correct. Second, get rid of the that
    test altogether.  What difference does it make which way a circle is
    drawn.  I asked a few people I worked with to draw a circle and out
    of 5 people, 3 drew the from right to left, but went underneath to make
    the connection.  
    
    My other problem with this test was this: She was asked to complete
    a picture.  The picture was in stick-figure format and was missing an
    arm, a leg, a hand, a foot and some hair.  Bothe the arms and the legs
    were straight lines.  When she completed the picture, they all had 
    fingers and toes, the bend at the elbow and knee were there and to
    top it all off, she told the teacher where the shoulders and muscles
    were located.  Gee, to me that sounds pretty smart for a 4 1/2 year
    old.
    
    Basically what I am saying is that this state should have all the
    schools sit down somewhere and standardize the way things are done. 
    
    Any questions, problems, ideas about this????
    
    
    Kevin

    
    re: .18
    
    Lost your sense of humor over this, huh?  
    
    :-)

    A quick question... .0 says the cutoff in their school system is August
    31st, and the child in question will be 5 on Sept. 18th.  Why is she
    being tested now?  Don't kids who "miss" the cut-off automatically defer
    to the following year?
    

    re: .16   
    
    Bonnie, I just *knew* I should have put one of those dippy little wink
    gizmos in the reply in which I said you called me stupid (but I can't
    bear to use them)!  If you thought I really meant you offended me, you
    probably thought I was being sarcastic in characterizing you as
    being "a paragon of clarity, common sense, and humane values". In which
    case, I've probably offended *you*. But I meant that straight...I love
    your comments, always have.
    
    Oh, dear.
    
    Kit

    I seemed to have flammed off at a few of you, which should not have
    happened.  It is just that with this school system, it seems like
    they expect kids to come in with a Master Degree in Chemical
    Engineering.  The want the kids to be able to do things that were hard
    for me to do when I was 8.  Don't get me wrong.  I am not saying that
    I expect the school to teach the kids everything,  but they still want
    to much.  We spend some time with them.  But, in the case of our 6 yr.
    old, he was put into Special Ed because they felt that he was not up to
    par with saying certain letters like r's and s's.  Things like not
    being able to describe a picture the way they wanted him to.  These
    test leave no room for any other answers but those listed on the test.
    If her answer did not match the one they were looking for, then she
    was automatically marked wrong.  
    
    I just feel that the schools of today place too many restrictions.  Why
    is it that one school systems cut-off date is August 31st and another
    is something different.  Why can't thay all be the same.  I know of a
    few people that have taken their children out of the traditional school
    place and started teaching them at home.  Why????  I feel it is because
    the schools expect too much from these children.
    
    In Susan's case, she wants to learn, to wants to go to school.  We
    spend time with her, but she still wants more.  
    
    By the way, the school that I am talking about are in Townsend, Ma. 
    Does anyone out there know of any parents groups that are concerned
    with today education.  Peggy and I would like to join in.
    
    Thanks and sorry for the flamming!!
    
    Kevin
    

    re: .21
    
    Kit  -- of course I thought you were being sarcastic since it's so
    obviously untrue :)  But I'm not offended, just sorry I hurt your
    feelings.  I mean, sorry I thought I hurt your feelings.  I mean,
    I'm not sorry I thought that, but I'm sorry that -- 
    
    Gee, there isn't any explaining this, is there? 
    
    re: .22
    
    Kevin, it does sound like they're misusing the test.  
    
    Gessell is not a by-the-book test with "right" and "wrong"
    answers.  The tests require the use of particular skills in
    certain areas of development, which taken in combination can
    indicate what level of development the brain has reached, which in
    turn can indicate when a particular individual might have certain
    kinds of difficulties coping with certain intellectual tasks.  
    
    And generally development is uneven -- someone can be way ahead in
    that fill-in-the-shape exercise that your daughter excelled at and 
    somewhat less developed in others. 
    
    For instance, in the block-stacking test, an 18-month-old might
    have the conception of building a tall tower but lack the
    fine-muscle coordination to carry it out, or have plenty of
    ability but not yet have developed the concept of stacking (my
    youngest is at that point right now).  
    
    Usually, deciding when a child is ready for a particular level of
    school is a matter of deciding whether that child has enough of
    the necessary skills to do well at the tasks of that level.  It's
    usually assumed that nobody is equally developed in all aspects.  
    
    It sounds to me like you have a legitimate beef here.
    
    --bonnie 

    Ok, ok...  So I goofed!  I meant to say my daughter SUSAN had just
    been Gesell tested.  Is that better?  Sorry for the confusion... 
    Although I did get a good laugh after reading some of the replies. :-)
    
    Yes, the cut off date is August 31st, with exceptions based on the
    Gesell test results.  
    
    Please don't misunderstand...  I certainly do not want to "force" her
    into a situation where she will have to work harder.  I just feel that
    the school system is placing TOO MUCH emphasis on the test answers that
    they were TOLD should be.
    
    I also do not know where ANYONE got the idea that I was looking for
    school to be "daycare".  What I was trying to say is that the kids go
    to school to learn, correct?  The schools apparently are expecting kids
    to know how to do read and write BEFORE they start school.
    
    My biggest concern is that I do not want her to have to "wait" a year
    to begin school if she's ready now.  My son just finished Kindergarten.
    He went to two year's of pre-school and loved it.  Then in
    kindergarten, hated it!  WHY?  Because he was "tired of cutting and
    pasting".  Now give him a pencil, some paper or a book and he's more
    than ready!  What benefit does learning how to cut and paste animals
    have?  I also believe that my son was BORED in kindergarten.  I really
    believe he was ready to learn how to read and write, NOT how to cut and
    paste!
    
    The other thing I don't like about the test is they take them into a
    room, while you wait outside.  They can't/won't/don't give you a clear
    explanation of WHAT they did.
    
    In reponse to .5  Eva, you obviously have a non-pressure job and also
    haven't been through some of the "troubles" of today's world. 
    Sometimes it's more than just working 40 hours a week!
    
    Bonnie, in .6  My 7 year-old son draws his circle the same way and when
    I asked him to draw it the other way, his answer was "I can't, my
    teacher TOLD me to draw it that way".  
    
    I'm just aggrevated with this particular school system and some of
    their ideas and I believe other parents in the town are beginning to
    question too.  The PARENTS are now doing surveys.  
    
    The amount of kids in the school district that are going into
    "transition" speaks for the school system alone!
    
    Just my opinion...
    

    1. This is a big issue in New Hampshire where most communities do not fund
    public kindergarten.  I don't want to start a rat hole on that, just to
    point out that it has been discussed in the NEW_HAMPSHIRE notes file,
    and that many kids there are being held back into "Readiness" and 
    starting First Grade a year later.  Again, for more discussion on this, 
    check NEW_HAMPSHIRE.
    
    2. I also want to give people a pointer to an independent learning expert
    (with schoolchildren of her own) who can provide an evaluation as well
    as referrals to other experts including neurologists.  If the schools
    start to jerk us around when my daughter comes of age, I certainly
    intend to have Esther evaluate her and give us advice on negotiating
    (or bludgeoning?) to get my child into the right class.  Her name
    is Esther Ross.  She is listed in the Nashua, NH phonebook under
    Joseph and Esther Ross.   She has certifications which she will gladly 
    provide.
    
    3.  While I am concerned that my child be ready and able to perform at
    grade level, I am also concerned to have her graduate high school by
    age 18 unless she is demonstrably in need of being held back at any
    time, including at first grade.  
    
    4.  I believe that many kids who start out slowly in first grade can
    catch up within 1 or 2 years if the teachers are willing to work with
    them.  But in too many schools, the classes are large, the schools are
    overly geared to high achievement scores, and there is no consideration
    for individuality.
    
    5.  Given the current vogue in schools, made worse by reductions in
    funding, I think it is incumbent on parents to participate heavily in
    the child's education both at home and at school.  My Mom was a
    schoolteacher, and she was always thrilled when parents communicated
    with her.  This is true as ever, and even more necessary now. 
    
    Laura  

    Laura,
    
    You're sure right about the class size, etc.!
    
    Could you explain why it's such a concern for you that your child
    finish high school by 18?  It isn't something that I had thought
    to worry about. 
    
    thanks.
    
    --bonnie

    It's been the way things are for so long.  By the time you have
    reached 17-18, you should have graduated from high school.  If you
    haven't there's all these stigmas attached.  
    
    Promotions to next grade level should not be based on age but level
    of readiness.  As to overcrowding in the classrooms, maybe it's
    time for all-year school, with more breaks throughout.  Our way
    of life in America has changed since being an Agricultual society.
     As I don't believe school should be daycare, I do feel that a place
    should be set aside to accomadate the working parents.  Not that
    teachers should become "sitters", but "sitters" could be there in
    the daycare environment after school.  With some options and a good
    attitude, I think positive adjustments can be made.
    
    Learning is not just writing and books.  Hands on pasting and cutting
    is learning.  Some children learn better with hands on technique,
    feeling more than hearing or seeing.
    
    If parents were the sole decision makers  as to what time their
    child should be promoted or beginning, there may be a lack of
    objectivity.  I think I'd a little less objective, honestly.  Hey,
    she's my kid, she's the brightest, smartest kid around.
    
    PTA's claim to be a forum for discussing these kinds of issues.
     However, every PTA meeting that I have ever attended or that my
    parents have attended when I was in school just didn't cut.  Seemed
    like a waste of time.  Now, recently at my kids' school, I've attended
    3 workshops,(required) that I felt were great.  The parents and
    the prinicipal and others were all able to discuss and learn issues.
     Those were the best "pta" meetings I've ever been to!
    

    .0
    My son drew his circle that way also.  They commented that perhaps he
    was a perfectionist.  This did not hinder him from going into
    Kindergarten.
    

    
    Here is an example of something that happened when I was tested for
    first grade years ago.  They had a picture of a man and your had to add
    everything to him.  Well i added a belly button.  The teacher asked
    what it was and I told her.  Well this kid had to go to kindergarten
    for drawing a belly button.
    						carol

I haven't waded through all the other replys, but I can tell you that
I couldn't spell my name when I started Kindergarten!  I could get
"Eliz" and eventually got "Elizab".  It took a while to do "Elizabeth".

Liz (you can understand why I go by Liz)

    
    re. 24
    
    Well, about my non-pressure job. I am a senior software engineer
    working on VAX workstation CPU and grahpics support, ie,
    the hardware groups build it and we make it work.  In short,
    it is life in the fast line. Work can be so stressful that my brain
    can be totally drained when I get home. 
    BUT, I don't let that happen to me, at least, I try.
    I mean, work (in the office or at home) will be here till externity, 
    but my kid will not wait, she'll grow and she'll leave.
    There are much more important things in life than this stupid
    rat race. I do enough work here to earn my paycheck and keep my
    professional integrity and I do enough work at home to keep things
    going. My priority is my family - spending time with them and enjoying
    my short life. Yes, there are problems, always, but I don't lose
    my perspective, I don't want to let life passes me by.
    I think you and I just have very different views of life itself.
    
    It is very easy to teach your kids to read and write. There are
    work book in most big toy stores and bookstore. They are fun to
    do with your kids. There are all kinds of good beginner readers in 
    the library. 
    
    Arts and crafts are very important, it gives us opportunity
    to be creative, original and that is as important as knowing
    to read and write.
    
    Eva
    
    

    Hmmm - I find this discussion very enlightening.  I wish these tests
    had been used when I started school.

    When I started kindergarden, the cut-off date was Jan 1.  I was born
    December 28th, so I just squeeked by and was always the youngest in the 
    class.  In retrospect - it probably would have been best if I had waited
    until the following year.  I was a marginal student for the first 3
    years (mostly C's and a few D's).  Later I became a much better student
    (A's and B's) - but always thought of school as a tremendous effort rather 
    than a fun place to learn.

    For what it's worth - my father is a college teacher and a perpetual
    student himself.  But even his enthusiasm for learning could not undo
    the attitude I developed towards school in those first years.

    This isn't to say that all 4.5 year olds are not ready for kindergarden.
    I just thought my experience might offer "food for thought" for those of
    you who are weighing the pro's and con's of enrolling your young children
    early.

    - Carol

I find this discussion interesting.  When and where I was growing up, there
was no public kindergarten - public school started with first grade.  I
attended a private kindergarten, and when I was old enough, started first
grade (after which they skipped me immediately to second grade, and I now
wish they hadn't, but that's another story.)

Until recently the city I live in now didn't have public kindergarten, and
my son, now just out of first grade, attended private kindergarten.  
With what I saw of the public kindergarten classes, I think he was much better
off where he was.  There was no testing to get in, and he learned well.

I do think that there is tremendous pressure from several directions, and
each side feeds on the other.  Parents want their kids to be as advanced
as possible, so they try to start their kids on the school track as early
as possible.  Schools, faced with this pressure from parents, find it
necessary to erect barriers in order to prevent the lower grades from being
flooded with kids who aren't intellectually and emotionally ready for it.
These barriers, in the form of standardized tests, can't be anything but
arbitrary in defining what is the "right" answer.  The schools can't use
judgement in bypassing the tests, as that would open them up to lawsuits
from parents who are certain that their child has been discriminated
against.

What to do?  I'm not sure.  For me, the answer is not to try to rush my
son through school.  Yes, I might possibly have gotten him "tested" into
first grade a year early, but he NEEDED that extra year to gain the
emotional maturity that served him well when he did start public school,
so I didn't even consider it.

It shouldn't be a stigma to have to wait a bit to start school.  But it
sure seems to be.

					Steve

    I have bad feelings towards these ridiculous test.  When I was
    attending elementary school, we had this so-called counselor who
    took students up to his little domain and tested them.  I was one
    of those students.  At the time I was in the 4th grade.  My schooling
    was alittle different.  From the first til the fourth grade, I was
    in what was known as Inter-Graded day.  This meant that grades 1 + 2
    wer held in the same classroom and 3 + 4 were held in the same
    classroom.  And when I got into the 3 + 4 mix, they gave us the option
    of advancing ourselves upto the 6th grade level in math and science.
    By the time I had finished the 3rd grade, I was working on 6th grade
    math and science.  Now back to the counselor.  He showed me a picture
    of a woman holding a bag of groceries.  He then asked me to to tell him
    what she was.  I said a lady.  He told me that I was wrong and to go
    back to my class.  He then scheduled an appointment with my parents
    to tell them that I have a learning disability.  He told them that the
    correct answer should have been "a mother".  Why, the asked.  Well,
    that is what the testing manual says.  He said that when I grew older,
    I would have all sorts of trouble learning and adjusting.  At this
    point in my life, I work with computer on a System manager level and I 
    pick things up rather quickly.  
    
    From what I can see, things haven't changed much since what our kids
    would consider the 'DARK AGE'.  The testing still seems to be the same
    as well as the teachers who administer them.
    
    Kevin

    	And I also was tested at an early age by the elementary school
    system.

    	The question was "How do you make a bed?"

    	My answer?

    	First you go to the woods and cut a tree down, then you plane the
    wood. Next you saw the wood into the right lengths and nail them
    together...

    	I couldn't understand the look that I got from the instructor but I
    do know it resulted in me taking a lot more extra tests than my peers.

    	Also, when I was tested earlier, they found out I could read before
    I went into Kindergarten. Because of this , I was always in advanced
    classes and as a result know how to recognize words but never learned
    my phonetics. To this day, I cannot spell and rely heavily on Spell
    checks. 

    	Even if you score high on some of these tests, if you miss the
    basics, the skills don't help you in the end.

    			Wendy

I have three gripes about schools.  One I think I've mentioned before, where
I learned to read before I entered school and they wouldn't let me, because 
"we hadn't learned that yet".

My second one is that I had to take the last year of high school, even tho I
had every credit the state and the school required for graduation.  They would
not let me out to attend college classes, even tho I had been accepted at a
college near my parents house.  I ended up taking a year of garbage classes
because they said if they let me do it, other students would want to also.
(This is bad?)  I *was* allowed to leave early if I was going to work instead.

My third gripe is the guidance counselor that told my very intelligent husband
that he was too stupid to take regular science class (in high school) and so
placed him in the remedial science class (insultingly known as science for
jocks).  It took the science teacher three days to figure out that a very
large mistake had taken place, and had him put in the advanced class.  It had
a big effect on his self-confidence for years.  (This is the guy who reads
Stephen Hawkings books and books on cosmic strings and actually understands
them).

I think sometimes school officials, like the rest of us, have a bad day and
screw something up.  Unfortunately, they can cause *real* damage, where the
rest of us only have the opportunity to cause minor damage.

I cannot believe the ordeal that you people down there seem to go through
with your school systems, and the incredible variation between them.

Here in the province of Ontario, Canada, the system is very straightforward.

Depending on your local school board and available funding schools have

Junior Kindergarten (otherwise known as 4 yr old kindergarten)
(Senior) Kindergarten (or 5 yr old kg)

then Grades 1-12 / 13  

The Kindergaten programs are optional ... in as much as the boards don't
have to provide them and even if available, children don't have to go.
Spaces, in particular for JK, are limited and available to the immediate
school neighbourhood children first, then first-come first served basis
to other bussed areas that the school serves (on a pure practicality basis).
Some schools don't have JK.

I cannot remember the cut-off dates, but from what I remember it is
the required age by the start of the school year.

There are no "eligibility" tests, although if your child only just makes
the cut-off date, the school may suggest that you delay a year ... they
cannot refuse you for that reason.  They do use a system called "Early
Identification" testing, though, to identify and work with children who
may need additional assistance.  If a child is considered not ready for
grade 1 in some boards, a child MAY be "recommended" to be held back in
Kindergarten but it is rare and is usually done for maturity reasons
and again promotion to Gr 1 cannot be refused.

In this way, your child will have been evaluated for one or two years,
so the recommendation is not on some arbitrary test.

The only provincial legality is that your child must be in a recognized
learning facility in the year he/she attains the age of 6, be that a
public or private school, or an agreed home schooling program unless
there are extenuating other circumstances.

Stuart

    re: -.1
    
    >There are no "eligibility" tests, although if your child only just makes
    
    Several respondents seem to have the misunderstanding that the testing
    described in this note is required for all children entering school.
    What people are describing here are tests to get your child into school
    at an age younger than that which the authorities have established as the 
    minimum age (based on the "cutoff date")
    
    Only those kids not making the cutoff date have to take a test, and, in
    most cases, there is a final date past which even testing won't get you
    in.  Theoretically, these dates are based on principles of educational
    and social readiness. Actually, they have as much to do with
    educational finance in these starved times (which is why they have
    generally moved up from an average Dec 31 cutoff to an August 31 cutoff
    -- all very short-term of course, since the kids you saved on this year
    show up next year, but that's life in a country with near-third world
    social services).
    
    Kit

Kit:

In Shrewsbury, MA ... the pre-entry kindergarten testing is REQUIRED 
for ALL children who MEET the cutoff date.  Children who "missed" the date
can't even take the test to see if they qualify!

In Northboro, MA ... the cutoff date is August 31st.  However, if your
child was born before December 31st, h/she can still take the test and if
h/she passes, can enter kindergarten.  If a child who's birthdate is after
the cutoff date (August 31st) fails the test, h/she can NOT use the appeal
process (retake?).  So "premature" children have only one crack at the test.

You'll find this varies from town to town, state to state ....

Dottie

    Dottie, you beat me to it.  Alex took the test (BTW and FWIW, they 
    administer it in rooms out of sight & earshot of the parents) and
    passed, but that's ALL they told me (mimeographed pass/fail notice 
    a few weeks later).  The test is segmented; since each child is given a
    mimeo of a teddy bear at the beginning and acquires a teddy-bear-part
    (ears for the hearing test, for example) for each section of the test
    completed.
    
    I put Alex in a private, full-day kindergarten for this past year
    anyway; I couldn't deal with the half-days-and-if-that-isn't-bad-
    enough-you-have-to-change-sessions-halfway-through-the-year scheme. 
    Little did I know how much worse it would get for the coming year (as
    you've pointed out elsewhere)!
    
    Leslie

    Dottie -
    
    I don't get it -- are we talking about the same thing here? 
    
    I'm not surprised that a school system would test all children entering
    kindergarten, in order to determine their needs (theoretically, at
    least).  Your Shrewsbury example could fit this scenario. But are you
    actually saying that, based on the testing, the school department would
    make the kid wait another year, even though he or she was withing the
    "cutoff" date?  That sounds bizarre.  For one thing, I can't imagine
    the legality of that.  Next year, when the kid was 6 within the cutoff
    date, he or she could go to first grade without ever having been in
    kindergarten.  And it may well be that the law now treats kindergarten
    with the same weight that it treated first grade in the past -- a 6 six
    year old has the right, if not the requirement, to attend first grade.
    
    Kit 

    
    RE. based on testing the school department would hold your child back
    
    That is my understanding of the way it works in Fitchburg also.  The
    child is tested just before kindergarten.  The test and is performed to 
    determine your childs readiness for school.  The cutoff date determines 
    IF your child will be tested.  If the test determines your child isn't
    ready for school, they wait a year or you can appeal the decision.
    I can't comment on early testing because I don't know anyone who's ever
    tried it.
    
           

    Kit,
    
    In Townsend, MA (at least), the kids that MEET the cutoff date are
    screened in MAY!  for the next school year.  What happens if they
    don't "pass" the screening?  I don't really know...  From what I've
    seen of this school system, I believe they would place them in a
    Special Ed program.  Which is not right.  
    
    The problem in Townsend is they take the tests too seriously and don't
    allow ANY room for "other" correct answers.  They expect an answer to
    be exactly what the tests say they should be.  If the answer was not,
    the it was incorrect or there is something wrong with the child.
    
    IT's RIDICULOUS!
    

I've had two different experiences here in Switzerland (Canton of Vaud).  They
DO NOT want children younger than the cutoff in the public schools.  There are 
two years of kindergarten.  The cutoff date is 1 July (4 years old for the 1st
year of kindergarten).  The children start part time (two or three half days per
week) and then gradually go to regular hours by the end of the first year.  
They will test for readiness up to the 1st of September.  This includes a whole
battery of tests involving psychological testing of the entire family.  One 
friend had her very bright daughter who was born on the 28th of September 
tested.  No way.

I didn't even try for my son who was born on August 3rd.  I figured he needed 
every additional day of maturity to pass the tests in 5th grade which decide
whether children go on to university or not.  Still didn't help.

Now the boys (10 and 12) are both in the International School.  There, the 
_only_ criteria for placing incoming students is their age.  They have children
from so many different school systems in such different stages of development
that they place them by age and then sort out the missing parts or the
advanced areas for each individual as the children's scolarity advances.  I have
almost never seen a child in a class ahead of their age (which is good for
sports, etc., school isn't ALL bookwork).  But you occasionally see children
who have repeated a year.  This year my older boy had a lot of difficulties,
especially with math.  Rather than deflate an already damaged ego even further
it was recommended to pass him with additional work on math during the summer.
If he hasn't done the work when school starts, he'll have to repeat.

Children here "graduate" at any age between 18 and 20.  There is no stigma 
associated with being older or repeating a year (well... repeating maybe a bit
but many otherwise good students will repeat, just to get the extra time.)  This
is perhaps due to the fact that to "graduate", the final two years (12 & 13) 
consist of preparation and taking final exams.  These exams are the sole
graduation criteria.  They cover the entire academic career.

Cheryl

Kit:

.42 (Fitchburg) is the same as our Shrewsbury process ... to verify:

1.  Even though a child MEETS the cutoff date requirements, if s/he fails
	the prescreening testing process, they cannot enter kindergarten.

	Recourse?  I believe Shrewsbury offers Special Ed to the children
	who fail the prescreening and then they are RETESTED and STILL MUST
	pass the prescreening testing process OR lose the year and start
	all over again "trying to clear the prescreening for kingergarten"
	for NEXT YEAR.  

	With the cutoff dates being pulled up further and further, it's
	conceiveable that some kids who get caught up in this bureaucracy
	could find themselves starting kindergarten as they approach their
	SEVENTH birthday!!!

	There will ALWAYS be children (for whatever reason!) who are not
	ready for kindergarten, HOWEVER, pulling up the cutoff date is
	not the ANSWER ... you end up targeting and penalizing children
	who ARE ready at the cost of those who ARE NOT!

2.  In some towns (Northboro, for one), they have a lot of flexibility
	... although their cutoff date is 8/31 (like most towns here
	in Massachusetts), they allow any child who's birthday is prior
	to 12/31 to be tested.  If the child passes, s/he's in.

	Only difference being, if your child's birthday is after the
	8/31 cutoff date and s/he fails the test, s/he can NOT do a
	retake.  So the kids between 9/1 anbd 12/31 have but ONE crack
	at the test.

3.  Julianne WILL attend fulltime private kindergarten (for one of many
	reasons!), but we would have liked her to AT LEAST have the
	"option" of being tested for public FIRST GRADE.  Shrewsbury
	is adamant about the 8/31 cutoff date for BOTH kindergarten and
	1st grade (they could care less whether or not the child is
	ready, s/he MUST first be born on or before 8/31 (and not a
	minute into 9/1!).  They make absolutely NO ALLOWANCES for
	even the best of cases!  (Please, don't get me going about
	Shrewsbury's school system ... it's a very highly rated school
	system -- PROVIDING your kid was born on a certain date! --  
	but of the many parents I have spoken with, I haven't
	heard very many good things about the ADMINISTRATION (and
	consquently "policies and procedures"!) of kindergarten.

	When they chose to drop ALL WEDNESDAYS from the kindergarten
	school calendar and overlap the morning/afternoon sessions,
	A LOT OF PARENTS got irate (to put it mildly!).  I understand
	a petition circulated which "clearly" stated how the "parents"
	felt about this, but "the change" cleared the School Committe "hands 
	down".  Why?  Because whatever "administration" says, goes!.  
	Who cares what the parents think!

    re: .45
    
    Hmmm, thanks. Very interesting. It looks like, even with the provision
    for special ed, they are skating over the line into denying public
    services that are not only appropriate, but, I still maintain, legally
    yours to avail yourself of.
    
    I'm sure this (and the Wednesday closings, etc that you mention) is all
    the result of the desparate financial conditions of towns stuck at the 
    2 1/2% increase, and now without the state to make up the difference.
    It's a damn shame, but it shows what our priorities are.
    
    Kit

    I think this is related to this topic, so here goes.
    
    I had a recent conversation with a friend who mentioned a school,
    (sorry this is going to sound vague) somewhere in the Lincoln Sudbury
    area, that allows the child to start school "whenever he's ready", and
    there is no structured curiculum, she described it as when you are
    "ready to learn" a certain subject (she sited math as an example) you
    "contract" with the teacher, and that's when you learn that subject. 
    She said it was accredited, and the children seem to come out learning
    more willingly.  She said she planned on keeping her son at home until
    he was about 8, I presume doing home-teaching, and then sending him to
    this school.
    
    Can anyone elaborate on this, what seems to be an unusual method of
    learning?  I was so taken back by her description I can't remember much
    of the description.  Has anyone any Personal experience?
    
    

    Its called the "Sudbury Valley School", and is located in Framingham or
    Wayland.  The school has quite a bit of literature;  they had a booth
    at the last La Leche conference that I attended.  It was a bit too
    loose for my taste.  As I recall most of the students went on to the
    arts or humanities...You could call the school for more info, if you're
    interested.

Couple of things since I last responded to this note ...

Have you heard Gov. Weld's (Massachusetts) latest proposal?  "IF" your child is
ready and has been accepted for enrollment in a school AFTER having first
been refused by your town/city ... YOUR TOWN/CITY gets to pay the tuition
fees!   YEAH!!!! -- this ought to change some of these rigid school 
administrators who are making these rigid policies with little (if any)
regard for a parent(s)'s choice for what they believe is best for their
child(ren) ... and removing all possible parental recourse!!!

Secondly, my cousin's son's birthday is August 22nd ... cutoff was 9/1.
"She" thought it was best to hold him back a year ... she told me Sunday
it was the BIGGEST mistake she ever made.  He's miles ahead of the kids and
bored silly (which is bringing about some discipline and attitude problems).
She said she had wished she gave it more thought than just "based on age"
(and some personal feelings around "letting go", etc.).  She said "I can't
move him up a year NOW!"

Dottie

    RE ,48, thank you for the info.  Interesting how you found out about
    it, since the woman who told me about the school is *extremely* active
    in La Leche in our town. (as in 6 mos pregnant with #2, and still
    nursing #1 who is 26 months).  She was in fact working in the LL booth
    at our recent Founder's Day weekend in town, when we had this
    conversation.
    
    Does anyone have or know children who have actually attended this
    school?  Is it for the "average" or geared more toward either the
    "gifted" or even perhaps the child with a short attention span? (I'm
    not referring to ADD here, just a shorter attentions span than the
    average kid).  Up to what graded level do you go?  And when you
    graduate do you get a diploma equivalent to any other school?  If you
    change from this school to a regular public or perochial school is
    there difficulty "getting up to speed"?  And one more thing, since I
    live quite some distance from that area, is transporations provided or
    do I end up as part of a car-pool?
    
    Inquiring minds want more info
    Lyn

    Wow, I just read all these notes and I'm in total shock. Where do I
    begin?
    
    Gesell - I think it is a wonderful "test," but maybe I think it is
    wonderful because I've been lucky enough to have learned a lot about
    it. Amherst, NH holds a 3 week seminar on their Readiness and 1st grade
    curriculum and testing. At one of the seminars they actually "tested" a
    child in front of all of us (30 parents). We were able to see it in
    action and see how it was scored. There was no pass or fail, but a
    grade of 5, 5 1/2 or 6 years for each of the activities. There were also
    specific behaviors these test administrator needed to look for. I was
    sold on it. I came home and gave the test to my son. By the things that
    he did and by specific behaviors I learned to look for, I could see that
    he scored at about the 5.5 year level, which shows he is not ready for
    1st grade.
    
    I do not live in Amherst however. I live in Merrimack. Merrimack does
    not use the Gesell test! Instead, they put 10 or so kids in a classroom
    one morning in May. They are tested, observed, etc. Scores are sent
    home a few weeks later. There are 4 parts to the evaluation:
    
    Parents opinion (I said He was not ready for 1st grade)
    Kindergarten teachers opinion (She said he was not ready for 1st grade)
    Testing  (Scored from 1-9 Stanine)
    Behaviors
    
    The children who scored 7 or less, or had some other reason to question
    whether or not they were ready for 1st grade then attended a week long
    summer diagnostic school. And then after that week, they made a
    recommendation. Parents are welcome to disagree.
    
    Well, to make a long story short, I feel that the Merrimack schools got
    to know my son well enough and when they said that they recommended
    Readiness, I agreed. (Of course I want him to go to Readiness too, but
    I  have my own reasons. I was curious to know theirs.)
    
    But, I asked a LOT of questions. They answered. I
    got answers on his fine motor skills, his gross motor skills, his
    speech, his visual memory, short term memory, visual discrimination,
    sentence memory, work habits, social life...
    
    I don't think they would have offered all this info if I hadn't asked
    though.
    
    This is my frustration with reading some of the previous notes. I think
    a lot of people don't understand Gesell, or don't understand all the
    things the teachers are looking for. It really, really helps when you
    understand. Looking at one or two aspects like circle drawing or adding
    limbs to a picture sounds so weird out of context, but when you see the
    whole thing put together, and when you understand the whys for each
    exercise, it helps. Plus, it is important to understand that the test
    administrator doesn't grade on one thing alone. If the child draws the
    circle the "wrong" way, it would be graded according the age of the
    behavior. I don't remember the grading exactly, but a 5 year old draws
    a circle starting from the point closest to them (bottom of the page)
    , then goes up. A 5.5
    year old does some other iteration, and a 6 year old starts at the top
    of the paper and goes counter clockwise - or something like this. As I
    can recall, the reason they look at this at all, is because if drawing
    a circle "correctly" goes against their natural tendencies, it will be
    harder for them to learn to write. They will be forced to draw a letter
    top down even though it doesn't feel right to them. Now give this child
    6 months to a year to mature and it all falls into place. Drawing a
    circle top down then comes naturally.
    
    Now, PLEASE keep in mind this is only one of MANY, MANY behaviors they
    look at. Your child may score a 5 yr level for this and a 6 year level
    for everything else. Then, most likely your child will be 
    recommended for 1st grade.
    
    Get involved. Ask questions, try to understand.
    
    By the way, for the person who gave the belly button story - funny you
    should mention that. The child that was testing in front of us all, drew
    in a belly button. Long after the child was out of the room and the
    test administrator discussed the test with us, she told us that drawing
    a belly button is very typical of 5 year olds and almost never seen in
    6 year olds. Now it may not mean anything in and of itself other than
    she's showing a 5 year old behavior in that one particular area.
    
    The whole purpose for this testing to for the child's benefit. No one
    else's. We don't want force a child to do things they're not ready for.
    We don't want to set up our children for failure.
    
    My only concern was that Readiness might not be challenging enough for
    my son academically. He does fine with academic tests, but he's shy and
    very young (September birthday). They reassured me that the program is
    individualized enough that they will keep him academically challenged. 
    
    I have faith. I'll let you know how it goes.
    
    Gale
    
    

    
    As a school committee member I am extremely distressed to here of the
    experiences of parents in communities with regard to Kindergarten
    screening. No one should be told that a child "failed" this test. It's
    not that kind of a test. It is supposed to be used to assess the needs
    of the individual child. There will be children who will not test at or
    above the norms. These children, most likely, require some form of
    remediation but placement should not be an issue. In my community we
    offer a number of different programs based on learning styles but never
    turn away age eligible children. Parents wishes are respected but all
    children are urged to attend.
    
    I'm surprized as well at the level of dismay shown by Shrewsbury
    parents with their administration. John Collins, the Shrewsbury
    Superintendent, has always been an above board, open, and honest
    guy. I hope you all approach him with your issues. Does Shrewsbury
    only offer 1/2 day Kindergarten? That's all the state mandates but
    many communities offer full day Kindergarten on a tuition basis
    expressly for the working parent situations.
    
    Mike