Conference moira::parenting_v3

>    When he's sitting in his high chair covered with drippy, sticky food,
>    it's not practical to take him out immediately and put him in timeout. 
>    If we cleaned him up first, he would completely forget what he did by
>    the time he went into timeout.  

How about a timeout in the bathtub?  Just leave him covered with drippy, 
sticky food, for the timeout period.  After the timeout period, you could 
undress him in the bathtub and clean him up.  

Clay

    As an alternative to punishment, is there anything that can be done
    to prevent the tantrum from happening in the first place?  Like
    letting him feed himself (if he doesn't already), or giving him a
    toy to play with during the meal, or allowing him to choose from
    several things to eat/drink.
    
    The other thing that comes to mind, that doesn't exactly answer your
    questions, is to limit the damage...i.e. put food on his tray just
    a bit at a time (less to fling!) and make sure his cups have a lid.
    
    For what it's worth, I recall this age as the beginning of Jason's
    tantrums and throwing.  The tantrums I could handle, the throwing
    absolutely p*ssed me off.   I believe it's one way they figure they
    can exert some control.   For us, neither punishment nor ignoring
    *really* worked but it did pass with time.   Do you want to know
    what's next?   haha!
    
    Good luck.   This Michael sounds like an indepedent, intelligent
    little guy!
    
    Carol

    
    Oh, I thought of one other tidbit.  According to our pedi, it is
    round about 18months that a toddler's appetite may go way down.
    We didn't notice this with Jason, but it might be a factor with
    Michael.  Maybe he's being fed more than he wants/needs and is trying
    to show you when he's had enough (in a rather obnoxious way!).
    
    Carol

    The terrible two's definitely start well before 2 - we noticed it at
    roughly 17-18 months, then a lull in the tantrums til about 25-27
    months. So, beware, they'll return again :-)
    
    I, too, feel awful for yelling sometimes, but if that's the reaction
    that Pat has, sometimes Michael is going to have to see it....
    sometimes I've noticed that raising my voice is what gets Ryan's
    attention and he stops the nasty activity..... not always effective,
    but my point is that it WILL happen, and for Pat not to put more on
    herself by feeling bad about yelling.
    
    Also, buy a dog! they're really helpful for meal cleanup. :-) I often
    wish we could take us with us to other people's houses, so I wouldn't
    have to pick up food bits....
    
    take care - it will pass, just like all the other yukky phases (and the
    good ones, too, too quickly).
    

    I agree with Clay -- time out in the bathtub.
    
    David's meal ends immediately he throws something on the floor, so
    he doesn't get a chance to graduate to the full tantrum.  He
    doesn't get to come back to the table until the next snack time. 
    Usually this happens at dinner, so he waits until bedtime snack.
    
    Though we've found that often the problems start because he isn't
    really hungry and didn't care about food in the first place.  He
    eats most of his calories at breakfast and lunch, and only wants a
    very light dinner.  He almost never has tantrums at lunch.
    
    --bonnie

    One caution about time out in the bathtub...in my house the bathtub is
    a treat..from 12 months on, it was Katie's favorite thing to do after
    dinner...so, taking her from the table, and giving her timeout in the
    tub, with a bath following, would only encourage the behavior.
    
    I agree with the idea of a timeout, but I'd do it in a corner of the
    kitchen...maybe on a sheet or "splat mat" if you're afraid he'll mess
    up the floor further.
    
    Susan

    I'd also be careful with timeouts in the bathtub.  If the
    kid is working into a full blown tantrum, I would consider
    the bathtub a very unsafe place to be (just think if they
    hit their head on the faucet or the side).
    
    What I have done is say "NO MESS!! TIMEOUT RIGHT NOW."  And
    everyone else vacates the kitchen.  My son was shocked at 
    the sudden change of rules around timeout (he is accustomed
    to the usual timeout chair).  But, I figure if nothing else
    I needed to get out of the room and cool down before dealing
    with him and the mess.  
    
    Jacob is now older (25 months), and he clearly understands 
    what a mess is, and how Mommy doesn't like to clean it up.
    The incidents are much fewer.  Still, sometimes he looses 
    control, and tosses stuff.  It is not fun.
    
    /Deb  

    In a similar situation, I have carried the high chair, munchkin and all,
    and put them in a corner while I clean the floor.  Then I remove the
    tray to clean it, and then the munchkin, to clean her/him.  Their high
    chairs are very sturdy.

    We had the same problem and mess with JM, so we did time-out by
    simply turning his highchair around facing away from the table and
    ignored him for a couple minutes.  He cooled down, we cooled down, and
    the dogs had a field day cleaning up!  We only had to do this about
    three times.
    
    Cathy
    

    What I did to stop the food flying was.  I took the tray off of his
    high chair and pulled the high chair up to the table.  That way he
    would be right next to us.  If he was bad and cleaned the table with
    his arm I would put the tray back on and tell him he was not acting
    like a big boy should and that if he was going to act like a baby I
    would treat him like one.
    
    Della
    

    I agree with a few back, that the meal should end right there.  Just
    clean him up quickly (lightly if he's going to have a bath later) and
    put him down away from the table and say "all done"!  This should only
    have to happen a few times before the child gets the picture and
    realizes he won't get to eat if he throws a tantrum!  
    
    I also agree with the person who said prevention too.  Try maybe to
    think of things that he would really enjoy at meal time.  Like maybe
    eating at a small table, or having a special place mat, or cup. 
    
    Also, I watch for any signals (Playing with food etc) that the child is
    finished, or not hungry.

    My son is 20 months, and seems to be coming out of the tantrum stage.
    Throwing food was something we so not tolerate at our house at all. 
    Alex used to love to throw food and rake his plate off his tray. Any
    such action caused an immediate end to his meal. He tested us several
    times. Just dropping one cheerio over the side at snack time, pouring
    a little milk on the floor. All of them terminate his meal. Usually,
    he would throw a tantrum in the floor, and cry for awhile. Sometimes
    he would be done and go off and do something else, other times he would
    ask to be put back in his chair after he had cooled down. It really
    didn't take too long for him to learn that we meant business.
    
    Also, when I am mad at him, I tell him so. I point out the specific
    behavior that I disapprove of and tell him how it makes me feel. (i.e.
    Throwing your food on the floor makes Daddy VERY ANGRY!). I let him
    know that I am loosing it. I don't tell him what I don't want him to do
    before he does it (i.e. Don't spill your milk!), and I don't judge him
    for what he has done (i.e. You are a bad boy for throwing food). He
    quickly learned when I was mad, what made me that way, and that I was
    not very fun when I was mad. 
    
    You have to decide what works best for your family, but I suggest
    making the rule simple, consistent, and make no exceptions. Throwing
    food, whether it is raking all the dishes off his tray, or dribbling
    milk over the side, get a timeout in the corner. Whether he is covered
    with food and you will have to clean up his corner when the timeout is
    over or not. Also, we never cleaned up the mess when we were mad. Wait
    till everyone has cooled down, and then take the time (usually delaying
    some fun activity until we were done) to clean up. Then we would
    explain that we cannot go outside until the mess is cleaned up. Usually
    Alex will "help" with the cleanup too (all the time saying "mess" and
    "Daddy angry")
    
    Bill

The weather's warm.  How about feeding him outside sometimes, too?
Perhaps in a "picnic" on the grass.  Less to clean up, and timeouts
can be done on the grass or other places outside, too.

          Carol

>The weather's warm.  How about feeding him outside sometimes, too?
>Perhaps in a "picnic" on the grass.  Less to clean up, and timeouts
>can be done on the grass or other places outside, too.

Carol, we're in Texas.  Yes, to say the weather's warm is something of an
understatement. It was 99 today, and the heat/humidity index has been well 
over 100 every day for the last two weeks.  Just eating outside would be a 
form of punishment...  ;')

RE: timeout on the grass.  Not with Michael.  The only way we can time him 
out is to restrain him in his "crypen."  If we just try to make him sit 
still, it's a losing proposition.

Steve

P.S.  We've been biting the bullet and ending the meal and immediately 
putting him in timeout, covered with food and all, whenever he throws food 
in anger.  We've also started being extra-diligent to foresee the tantrums 
before they happen so we can remove the plate and avoid the whole thing.  
It seems to have gotten somewhat better, though there's still plenty of 
room for improvement.

There's your answer, Steve!  You need to move to Colorado Springs!
Our weather has been unseasonably hot, around 90 degrees for several days
last week, although it is just around 80 today.  Under the shade of our
big cottonwoods, though, and with the nice breezes we have, it's really
*nice* to be outside!

*ack!  100 degrees in Texas!

     Carol