Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Gee, some of this sounds familiar.   My mother-in-law links all traits
    to her family, even when I have some of the same traits.  I try to make
    jokes and say something like, "Do you think that I, as the mother, had
    some input into her?"  
    
    That type of thing is minor.  Some of your other comments have me
    concerned.  I wouldn't allow anyone to plan an overnight visit without
    consulting me.  *I'm* the mother, not them, and I expect that.  
    
    I think you should talk to your husband about this, and make him
    understand where you are coming from.  Then the two of you need to have
    a united front with his parents.  
    
    But do keep in mind that they are the grandparents and they *love* your
    child and have her interest in mind.
    
    Lastly, one of my tricks when I wanted time alone with my baby was that
    I nursed her.  If you are nursing, this is the perfect way to go to
    another room without hurting anyone's feelings.  The baby has to eat,
    after all.
    
    Good luck!  New generations make whole new rules in family
    relationships.
    
    judy

    Sandie,
    
    Unfortunately, I have no advice for you.  But I do have lots of
    sympathy.  This sounds very much like the situation I have, too.  
    If anyone has any advice, I would like to hear it too.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lauren
    
    P.S. this is not the first grandchild.

    I'm presently in a similar predicament, but think that I've worked
    it out.  My mother-in-law, who I adore and think is a wonderful
    person with a great sense of humor has been with us since Courtney
    came home from the hospital tow weeks ago.  She too has become overly
    infatuated and "ignorant" of my desires in that she wouldn't let
    me spend time alone with my little girl when I get home.  I too,
    tried to be blunt about it and she just laughed at me as if I was
    just kidding.  (I usually kid with her a lot so I could almost
    understand how she could've misunderstood.)  What I did was have
    a series of small converstions with my wife Patty about the subject.
     I needed to have several converstions with Patty because I didn't
    want her getting upset with me "dictating" what her mother did and
    didn't do.
    
    I convinced Patty to let her mother know that Courtney is our child
    first(!) and then related to everone else.  Patty was then able
    to talk sensibly to her mother about my feelings and that as the
    father I deserved some special time with my newborn.  (After all,
    they're home with her all day to enjoy her while I'm at work thinking
    about her, looking at her pictures, etc.)  The other point that
    Patty was able to gently get across to her mother is that we want
    to raise *our* child in a manner that we see fit, right or wrong!
    After all, that's part of being a parent- making mistakes.  (My
    philosphy is that our parents had their turn at making mistakes
    and now is our turn.)  I'm not trying to sound like I'm harsh on
    my m-i-law or my parents, but this is what parenting is all about,
    and we're all adults who need to be respected as much as we respect
    others.
    
    Sorry for the rambling, I guess I needed to vent just a bit more.
    Try to discuss this with your partner first and make sure they
    understand your feelings first and have them play the arbitrator
    with their parents.  So far, its workng for me!
    
    Ron

    Sorry that I forgot to mention that this is my mother-in-law's first
    grandchild, complicated by the fact my wife is her only child.
    
    Ron

    Ah, and we expect this very same behavior from Marc's parents. Already,
    they are *telling* us to take vacations so that they can take care of
    the baby. (my response to that is, we're having children because we
    want them, why on earth would we be going on vacation without them?)

    Thankfully, these people live seven hours away and trips back and forth
    number only a few each year. We do have to handle the visit after the
    baby is born which is already causing a few anxieties, we've decided to
    have them hold off on visiting until at least the second week. As a
    previous noter stated, we are the parents and we want to figure out how
    to do things, we do not want to be told what is right and what is
    wrong. We figure that we will spend the first week alone getting  used
    tot he new baby and *then* we will be willing to have them visit.
    (visions of my mother-in-law taking the baby and allowing me 5 minute
    visitation rights on the hour do haunt me and justifiably so, she has a
    history of already obsessing about this first grandchild).

    Funny thing is that my parents are causing no great concern, this will
    be their 10th grandchild and they have already made it clear that they
    do not intend to come up from North Carolina to visit. 

    I think that the main thing to remember is that you are the mother
    (parents) and you have a right to confront unacceptable behavior and
    to say no.

    				Wendy

    Boy can I relate to this one, in a different sort of way.  We were
    living with my inlaws when AJ was born.  Everynight my mother inlaw
    would come up to our room and check to be sure AJ had a tshirt under
    his nightsack, wrapped in a recieving blanket "her way of wrapping",
    and placed in his crib under at least one blanket, with the house heat
    set at what we called "nursing home" level (extremely hot like 80)  
    
    In AJ's 4+years I've endured the baby pictures of my husband telling me
    how much he looks like my husband's baby pictures, excuse me, he looks
    like ME too! and how whatever he does it because "his father did that
    too!".  So what am I chopped liver?
    
    I think 11 weeks is a bit young, but AJ is over 4, and no one *ever*
    has taken him overnight.  I'd give my right arm about now to sleep
    pasat 6:15 in the morning!!  If you feel your baby will be OK away for
    an overnight, I'd say do it!  If your gut says otherwise then wait til
    the baby is older.
    
    Hang tough!
    Lyn

    I dont think that anyone is alone in this kind of situation.
    
    I know we went through it and are still going threw it and Andrew is
    two years old.  They want to take him on their summer vacation which is
    two weeks (no way to long).  My feelings about overnight stays is
    that you work all day the only time that you get to have quality time
    with your child is in the evening and on week ends.  If they want to
    see their grand child make it durning the day when you are working. 
    then they get to have all day with them and do everything with them
    feed them change them  etc.  
    
    That is what we have done and it has worked out just fine.  
    Some times you just have to say no not to night we have a family evening
    planned with your new family.
    
    Della

    It's terribly easy to make the baby a pawn in a relationship
    struggle -- with spouse, with parents, with siblings, with the
    sitter.  I know; I did it with my firstborn and my parents.
    
    One thing that will help is if you can sit down with yourself and
    see if you can separate your real concerns for the baby's
    well-being from emotional issues of who's in control.  You don't
    have to tell us if you're worried about the baby's health and
    well-being or you're jealous of all the attention the baby's
    getting while you feel neglected yourself, but until you know what
    you're really feeling, it's easy to escalate little disagreements
    into major fights that increase hurt feelings without getting you
    any closer to the real issues. 
    
    You might simply be having differing assumptions about what being
    a family means.  If you're only living an hour from your husband's
    parents, they (and he) might have visions of big noisy extended-
    family gatherings while you're looking at private evenings with
    just the kids.  Both are legitimate, but it's important to know
    what you want and then to talk to your husband and your in-laws
    about those differing expectations. 
    
    I found that I was terribly jealous of Steven after he was born. 
    He was Neil's firstborn and they were absorbed in each other.  I
    felt excluded by their closeness, and like nobody took me
    seriously, that my opinion of how things should be done didn't
    matter.  And I found it was partly because I wasn't taking myself
    seriously.  I was making myself into an emotional doormat and then
    wondering why everybody in the family walked on me.  I thought
    that it reflected poorly on me as a mother that the baby should be
    closer to his father than to me.  
    
    I eventually learned that the children's relationships to other
    people -- to their father, to their grandparents, to each other,
    to their friends -- don't threaten their relation to me.  In fact,
    their ability to develop other friendships both inside and outside
    the fmaily is probably partly a reflection of the relationship
    they have with me.  After that it became a lot easier to deal with
    Steven preferring Neil, and with infringements on what I saw as
    "my" territory.  
    
    Post-partum depression was also a part of it.  It can start as
    late as 10-12 months after the baby is born, when you think you're
    recovering perfectly, and it can last for years.  That made coping
    with real issues so much more difficult, but once I was aware of
    it, I could at least cope.
    
    --bonnie

    Well I guess with me it is rather different. First I didn't have
    a lot of interference from either set of parents when my kids
    were babies. They all lived too far away.
    
    But with my granddaughter, it is almost like my son and her mother
    are over joyed to let me take her for a day or over night. This may
    well be because they are both college students in their senior
    year and they are so incredibly stressed out that they need the
    occasional break.
    
    I love having my granddaughter around very much, but don't like having
    total responsiblity for long periods of time. Fortunately with
    2 aunts and uncle and a grandfather around most of the time this
    is not a problem.
    
    Bonnie

    Let me say first that I have sympathy for the basenoter.  And envy.
    My son is 3 and my dad has never seen him.  I invited him to come
    up for James' christening and Dad said "it takes too much gas to
    drive up."  He's never said,  "I'd like to see him," or anything
    like that.  His wife has already told one of my other sisters that
    "We won't be visiting New England; it's too long of a drive and it's
    too hard on your dad."  Mind you, they spend four months of the year
    in Florida.  And they don't fly down there.  FWIW, they live in
    Pittsburgh, which is a 12-hour drive or a 90-minute flight.
    
    So, .0, I wish you lots of good luck....in a sense, I almost wish
    I had your problem.
      
    

    Sandie,
    
    I don't envy you...my in-laws are possessive, now, *before*
    our baby is born...they live 1 1/2 hrs away and seem to
    think we should be over there every weekend....both my
    husband and I are very independent.  He was *single* in 
    the military for 8 years and I moved away from my family
    5 years ago.  So we are used to not having family around.
    
    We are often *fed guilt trips* to try to get us to see
    them....I dread it when the baby comes.
    
    I will definately remind my mother-in-law that she has
    *ALREADY* raised her children and I will raise mine
    (and make mistakes) on my own.
    
    Maybe you should remind yours that they already had their
    chance and you want yours....Maybe even show them your note.
    It was nicely written....
    
    Maybe they will take you more seriously....  
    
    I think babies change people and sometimes you just need
    to set the ground rules up front....They may/may not hurt
    people's feelings but this is *your* time with your baby
    and that's more important isn't it?  Your in-laws will
    get over it...and if not, ask them how they would feel
    if they were in *your* shoes?  I think grandparents
    forget that *selfish* love in the beginning a mom
    has for her baby...
    
    Good luck, Kristen

    
    
    	Hmmmm... Well, FWIW, here's my two cents.
    
    	This is my mother's first grandchild from her only daughter.
    	If she had her way, she'd spend every waking (and sleeping!)
    	moment with her. It's been a long time since she's had
    	the opportunity.  Even relatives have been scarce on the
    	baby scene lately.
    
    	While I was out on maternity leave, she'd come over every day 
    	for lunch.  She worked about 10 minutes away and it made a nice 
    	break for me (I could shower, go check the mail, etc.) while
    	she watched Cassidy.  She also knew that once I went back to
    	work that the visits wouldn't be as frequent so I let her
    	change her, feed her, etc.  My feelings were Hey! Knock
    	yourself out and have a good time .. I'll be doing this every
    	day for the next few years.
    
    	As far as overnights.. Cassidy is 10 weeks old and has already
    	stayed at Memere's twice.  She's a very good baby and doesn't
    	give a lot of hassle.  My mother raised my brother and I
    	just fine so I trust her.  She may do some things differently
    	than I would but at that age, I'm not too concerned with it
    	affecting the baby.  
    
    	And if she does things that aren't quite "right" such as
    	giving her too many ounces of formual at a time or putting
    	three blankets on her when it's 85 outside I just give her 
    	a little prod and remind her that it's been a LONG time
    	she's had her own and times have changed...
    
    	Maybe I sound selfish but I need time to myself (it's
    	nice to sleep in until 11:00 when she's not there!) otherwise
    	I'd run myself ragged.  I know it's not quite relevant
    	to your situation, but...
    
    	/Kim

    
    	Kim...
    
    	You seem to have the same attitude that I am hoping to have with
    	my unborn child when he/she arrives. This will be my parents first
    	grandchild, and I am hoping they will want to take the baby over
    	night etc once a month or so, and if so...I am going to accept
    	gladly. I trust them, and my fathers wife does daycare herslf and
    	loves infants...so I don't think I'll have to worry about the
    	babys care.  My mom is already going out and picking up things
    	like an extra carier/seat, porta crib etc..to keep at her house
    	for when the baby "comes over". I'm hoping I don't get TOO 
    	over protective..
    
    	After 9 months of pregnancy (10 mos)..I think I'm going to be DUE
    	for a night or 2 out with my husband alone (as much as I will love
    	my child)... and will welcome a chance to "sleep late".
    
    	but I can also see the other extreme as far as the grandparents 
    	being TOO overpowering also... I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
    
    	Chris                        

    I believe that Grandparents are an extremely important part of a childs
    development. I was extremely close to my grandmother(lived in the same
    town) as a child. My other grandmother lived across the country and
    there was not the same closeness/bonding that developed.
    
     As a new parent you feel that they are intruding on your time right
    now but that will pass. In a couple of years you will appreciate it if
    your inlaws pay as much attention to your child/children as they do
    now.
    
    I believe that if you stay home all day with your children you relish
    the opportunity to let your inlaws/parents spend as much time as they
    can with your kids. If you work during the day it is a different
    situation.
    
    Your parents/inlaws are not going to live forever. If they love your
    children and ENJOY spending time with them, let them. You could be in
    a situation as some of the previous noters had stated where they would
    gladly trade situations with you.
    
    Your child is very young now but as she/he grows up the demand as a
    parent increases. You will look back and appreciate that you had
    caring loving inlaws who WANT TO BE WITH THIER GRANDCHILDREN. Plus your
    kids will be better off by the bonding that occurs with GRAMMA and 
    GRAMPA.
    
    Randy................Whos own mother could care less but has the
    GREATEST INLAWS/GRANDPARENTS to my children.
     
    

    	Kind and loving grandparents are one thing.
                                                   
	Overpowering and intrusive grandparents are quite another.

    			Wendy

	RE: .15
    
    	I don't think anyone is arguing with you about the fact
    	that you've got a problem situation on your hands.  I
    	think they're just trying to see both sides.  I'm lucky
    	enough not to have that overpowering sense with either
    	set of grandparents.  Would you or could you imagine 
    	the overpowering grandparents not being involved in
    	your child's life at all?
    
	RE: Saudelli
	>I believe that if you stay home all day with your children you relish
    	>the opportunity to let your inlaws/parents spend as much time as they
    	>can with your kids. If you work during the day it is a different
    	>situation.
    
    	Eek...  I went back to work six weeks after my daughter was
    	born and I'm still more than happy to let my Mom take her
    	for a night.  I do get out of work at 3:30 every day, though,	
    	so I still have ample time with her unlike some folks who	
    	don't get home until 6:00, etc.
    
    	
    	/Kim

    I hear what Wendy is saying in .15, though.  To me .14 was talking
    about a totally different situation.  I have a friend whose
    mother-in-law is obsessed with the first grandchild.  The situation
    is very much like the problem in .0 and it's horrible.
    
    You can also have the problem of grandparents who are kind and loving,
    not obsessed, BUT will tell you how everything you're doing is wrong.
    I'm very hopeful that with my second, everyone won't be telling me
    "baby needs a hat, baby needs socks, baby needs sweater, baby should
    be eating solids".  At least this time around I'll have the confidence
    to tell them to get off my back (but not in those words, of course).
    
    Donna

    re.16 

    	Could I imagine the overpowering grandparents *not* being involved?

    	Absolutely.

    	But I also realize that I have a very, very different situation.
    And I also realize that thanks to some pretty tough experiences and
    guidance, I can say that. To me, blood ties do not justify
    inappropriate behavior.

    	As an example, one of my siblings is an active, violent alcoholic.
    I have no intentions of initiating involvement with him and our child.
    If he is at a family function, then with supervision, he would meet our
    child, but I would never intentionally put the child in a situation
    where it might be harmed either physically or emotionally.

    	I understand what you are saying about caring grandparents, I
    really do, and for those of you who have them I am truly envious. I
    read about the kind of support that you get and I think how wonderful
    it would be to have that both for myself and for the child. 

    	But for those of us that do not fall into that category, wishing it
    could be like that and ignoring what *is* to pursue what *could* be, is
    a very dangerous game to play with anyone.

    				Wendy

    Time for some honest communications?   Don't lightheartenly talk about
    what you are feeling, 
    discuss your true feelings, "I don't like it when you...., it makes me
    feel .....".  Don't make it a game, don't laugh.  You might even cut
    out the .0 you wrote and give it to them if you feel you can't
    communicate it any other way.
    
    There are other [normal] issues at work here where you feel the need to
    assert that you are in control.  Try not be get into a power struggle.
    Enjoy having someone to give you time off.  When it comes time to
    differ with some point of upbringing .i.e length of hair was one issue
    my inlaws and we differed on, simply state what how something is going
    to be done and don't enter into a debate over it.  That'll show them
    that your all grown up and can make the right decision.
    ed
    

    I finally isolated what was a fairly minor communications problem with
    my mom but which was gave me a lot of angst!  I realized that when I
    tried to recount an anecdote about the baby, Mom would immediately
    provide *the solution*, even before I got to the end of the story. 
    What I wanted was an audience, not an *answer*!  Mom wouldn't let me
    get to the denoument--whether it was the incredibly inept way I'd
    handled it or the unbelievably ingenious solution that presented
    itself; whether I'd narrowed it down to a few dozen possible courses of
    action or decided to ignore the situation.  I finally said "Mom, that
    was NOT a QUESTION!  I just wanted to chat!"  She was a little stung at
    first but we eventually agreed that I'd make it clear which was a
    question and which was a request for commiseration/applause....
    
    Leslie

I was in the beauty salon the other day and my stylist was a vietnamese
woman whose husband is also vietnamese.  We got to talking about kids (imagine
that) and I asked how many she had.  She said she had four (25, 23, 19, 14),
and three lived with her).  I learned that the oldest was in France with his
grandmother.

After asking a few questions, I learned that the grandmother took him
immediately when he was born, then later moved to France with him.  He came
back to visit his mother when he was four, and again when he was six.  Other
than that he has been with his grandmother (paternal) all his life.

I mentioned that I could NEVER do that with any of my children, and was curious
as to how come she did it, and how she handled it.  She said that she did NOT
want to, nor did her husband.  But that the m-i-l was VERY insistent on raising
him, and her husband thought it best to give him to his mother and have a new
baby, than cause family problems!

Is it that different in Vietnam, or is this a unique situation?  I was appalled!

	Kristen

    Well, another factor might be that the child was born in/around 1966.
    Not the best of times to be a boy growing up in Vietnam...

In many oriental societies, the eldest parents rule the roost.  The daughter-in-
law who probably lives with her husband's family is low man on the totem pole,
even lower than her sons, when they are born.  This is particularly true in
rural societies.  

But this is their culture and they have lived like this for thousands of years.

ccb

    I believe this is not uncommon in Southeast Asia, as Cheryl described
    in .23.  I met a family in the same situation in Thailand.  Grandma
    lived several hours away (by bus) from the parents.  I don't know how
    they could cope emotionally.  I believe it is done frequently with the
    first son.
    
    Laura

The social structure in these countries has evolved in such a way that a
young married women is an "apprentice".  She has a complete supporting
family to help her and guide her in what is "correct" in child raising, keeping
a house, etc.  For this she works very hard.  She will have her chance when she
is grandma.  

In return, grandparents have a true "job" in these societies.  They are highly
honored.  They have main responsibility for child rearing, a task they are more
physically able to accomplish than the hard work of cooking, cleaning, etc.
They are well looked after and supported by their children till they die.

Who is to say that this is less humane then packing them off to a home?  And 
when this is the norm, I don't believe that it is emotionally stressful.  The
strain comes when you try to mix cultures whether through marrying into a
different culture or through living in a different culture.  Then the values
you have learned since birth begin to be questioned or you don't have the
backup/environment to know what to do.

Cheryl

    Even in rural European cultures, it's common for the family to
    make a collective "sacrifice" of a firstborn or talented child in
    order to help the child fulfill his or her potential and to try to
    better the family's collective position -- for instance, going
    into debt to finance a college education, sending the child to a
    richer relative to live, sending an especially talented child away
    to a special school, and so on. 
    
    The family misses the child, certainly, but the feeling is that
    it's better for everyone in the long run, and you're sacrificing
    parental feelings for the good of the child.
    
    --bonnie

    Since we're on this tangent...
    
    An ex boyfriend of mine had many relatives in Paris.  Upon visiting
    them once I learned that an aunt of his had given her third child to
    her sister because her sister could not have children.  The aunt then
    went on to have three more children.  So it does happen, not all that
    uncommon, but it would be very difficult for me to do.
    
    

    I haven't read all the replies to this note .... but the basenote sure
    rings a bell (more like a Gong!).  My mother is extremely possesive
    about my children.  My mother-in-law barely acknowleges that they're
    alive.  Weird.
    At first, we were thankful that the boys and my mom would develop a
    good 'grandparent/child' relationship.  But the more she saw of them,
    the more obsessive she became.  It was also a little more difficult
    because my husband was happy to have the time without them (just the 2
    of us), so he was more willing to put up with her behavior.  The fact
    that she still treats me like a 'little girl' doesn't help much either,
    but that's another story...
    
    Anyway, this all came to a head about 3 years ago, when Christopher
    (then 3) was visiting her.  She was supposed to have brought him home
    by 7:00.  By 8:00, I hadn't heard a word and they weren't here, so I
    called.  The response on the other end was infuriating to say the
    least.  I asked if she wanted me to get him (she lives an hour from us), 
    or when she was bringing him home.  She said that they (they=her!) had 
    decided that it would be much better that he just spent the night
    there again, and that he wasn't coming home.  Aside from the fact that
    this was completely out of the question because of other plans and
    needing enough time to de-program him from being with her, she had
    absolutely *NO* intentions whatsoever of letting me know (forget about
    asking!).  She said I didn't need to know - he was fine.  ARGH!!!!!!! 
    And then she hung up on me.  I called back and (Thank God!) Christopher
    answered the phone and I just told him I was coming to get him.
    
    To make matters much much worse, by the time I got there, she had told
    him that I was coming to get him because I didn't like her and thought
    that she was abusing him, and that sometimes I can just be mean and
    don't understand.  She also made out that she was afraid that I was
    going to hit her or something (which I've **NEVER** done!!), and called
    my father (whom she hates), and told him he had to come over to protect
    her. (ok, so the lady's tapped!)
    
    Obviously, things went downhill from there.  Bringing him into the
    middle of it was *WAY* over the line.  After that, and until this year,
    she was forbidden to have them stay over or see them alone.  It has
    definitely affected everyone's relationships, and all for the worst
    A few times she arranged for one of my sisters to watch them, and then
    she would send them out and watch them herself ... which affected my
    relationship with my sisters as well.
    
    Soooo .... I would suggest that you at least be careful that this
    doesn't get out of hand.  My kids don't go anywhere unless I say it's
    ok, and I know exactly what's going on.  I always call to say
    goodnight, and I be sure to ask THEM what's going on instead of
    listening to the line of dribble that they're told to repeat from the
    other end of the phone.
    
    I'm sure that this all arose from the fact that my mother has never
    been able to accept the fact that we are grown, and is completely
    obsessed with small children.  If she had her way - and she's quite
    open about this - she would just take the kids away so that she could
    raise them 'properly'.  A previous noter said "They had they're chance
    to make mistakes - now it's mine"  MOST Definitely!!  Mom turned out 5
    kids -- all with fairly significant problems .... she's not getting her
    hands on my two! (-:
    
    *GOOD LUCK* ... hopefully you can nip this in the bud!
    
    Patty

Geez, I don't know how you can live with things like that.  You can't trust
your own mother!  It breaks my heart.

I'm extremely lucky - my mother is wonderful.  She was so
supportive thru the entire pregnancy (ok, ok, she had a little trouble with my
decision to use a midwife, but she got over it when I explained I would be
having the baby in the exact same hospital as if I was using a doctor).

Then she came *5* times last winter to help me.  She taught me a lot about how
to be a mother, but was and is very clear that *I'm* the mommy and so whatever
I decide is what happens.  If I don't know what to do, she'll help me decide,
but *I* have to make the decision.

It wasn't always like that, but sometime in the last 10 years, we started
being honest with each other.  I wish I could say, just do that and it will
all work out with the parents and parents-in-law troubles, but it takes
committment and respect on both sides for it to happen.

I thought I appreciated my mother before, but after reading this topic, I don't
appreciate her enough....

    	Boy, we just had a visit from the in-laws from hell and it was
    terrible. It pretty much confirmed everything that we had feared and
    more. At the time many of these things were said I was so shocked that
    I couldn't come up with legitimate responses (not that they would have
    heard them anyway).

    	The grandparents have arranged to have the baby (due mid-September)
    transported out to their house for a week (alone) sometime in the fall
    so that they can take care of it and get to know it. (over my dead
    body).

    	Whenever they referred to the baby they called it our (not your as
    in you and your husband's) baby. A few times, the mother slipped and
    called the baby "my baby" (she has made it clear that she wants to own
    this baby and is very upset that I am the one that is pregnant and not
    her, every time I would mention a symptom of pregnancy she would say
    that she had it worse *right* now and knew exactly what I felt like,
    she even wants to own the pregnancy for God's sake).

    	They were disappointed to hear that it was a boy (girls have such
    nicer outfits).

    	They intend on "spoiling the baby" which reads that if they give
    the baby enough, the baby will like them better than us.

    	They brought their new puppy to our house (without asking us first)
    and thought that it was "so cute" when the puppy shit and peed on our
    living room rug. They are letting the puppy be around children so that
    it will be good when it comes time to let it play with "our" baby.


    	The mother thought that "mama" or "mommy" would be a cuter name for
    her instead of "grandma".


    	How do you set boundaries with people who are so removed from
    reality? We tried to respond to a few of these comments but we were
    caught so far off guard.

    	I'm afraid that we are all in for lots and lots of battles over the
    ownership and parenting of Marc and my baby.

    			Wendy

    	

    	

    	

    They aren't in-laws to both of you.  Get the spouse to tell them to
    back off.
    
    I'd seriously consider not letting them have the child in September.
    
    		-John Bishop

    	Just as a clarification, there is no way in hell that those people
    are taking any child of mine for a week before that child is at *least*
    21 years of age (and has a car so that he could leave on his own
    accord). I say this partly in jest and partly as the law.

    	The point of that story was that the in-laws made the arrangements
    on their own without consulting us (why would we matter, we are only
    the parents - they see us as merely being a nuisance on the way to
    their baby), in fact, they didn't want us to even be there, the plan
    was to take only the baby out (8 hour drive one way) to take care of it
    after it was a few weeks old. (yeah what are we supposed to do in the
    meantime, rent a lot of videos?) The fact that I would be breastfeeding
    was not even a concern in their plans (she stopped breast feeding after
    a few weeks, I could also). I was just aghast that they would even
    assume that we would go along with this, but again, they really feel
    that they own this baby and that they will do the parenting.
    
    	I seriously don't think that these people have any basis in reality
    and if they were trying to show us how much they wanted to care for hte
    baby they failed miserably. We just want to keep them as far away as we
    can from any of our children.

    	It truly was frightening to see their attitude towards this baby.

    				Wendy

Too bad you can't further away so that it would take a 70 hours
or something like that to drive the distance.  Of course even if that
could be a reality rather than wishful thinking they'd probably plan
on flying :-{.

It sounds like you and your husband, are going to have to be really
tough with them.  Maybe a letter, clearly stating your position would
help make things clearer to them.  Maybe you could talk to some good
friends of their's, gently and tactfully explaining the problem, and
have them talk to your in-laws on your behalf.  I am just thinking that
maybe having a peer rather than son & daughter-in-law point out to them
what they are doing might be more effective.  (not that something like
that should be necessary, but in this case ...)

Hope you can make them understand that you are grown-ups now, the 
parents of this child to be, and that have no legal authority or guardian-
ship of the child.

My parents have taken care of my sister's son for extended weekends on
occasions & my Mom has a wonderful relationship with the little guy, 
everybody in the family refers to it as a mutual admiration society.
But then, my Mom does not try to interfere in anyway with my sister &
her husband's parenting, and is not possesive or domineering.  It's a 
lot easier to be generous with your children to the grandparents when
they're not jealously trying to take over.

Good luck.

Leslie

    
    Wendy,
    
    There's nothing like a grandchild to turn 2 normal adults into
    babbling {you fill in the rest}.
    
    Think about what kind of relationship you envision your baby having
    with this set of grandparents - then talk about it with your husband.
    It sounds like you and your husband are putting a plan in place for
    setting some limits for them. Make sure you both agree to the plan
    and discuss all deviations to it. Even my dear Kevin tried this one,
    "I told the babysitter it was okay for my teenage sister and her boyfriend
    to pick up the baby and meet me 90 miles from here."
    
    The comments they made would make me feel threatened....
    I would shudder at the thought of ANYONE taking my newborn away for a week.
    (Especially 8 hours away!) Although, breastfeeding has a way of taking care
    of any separation issues.  You and the wee one will be a package deal. 
    I had a very supportive pedi on this issue.....
    "Have your mother-in-law call me if she questions my judgement"  The La
    Leche league had a good pamphlet written especially for grandmothers
    explaining breastfeeding and how to be supportive in other ways than
    feeding the baby.
    
    Maybe you could find some ways to include your in-laws without them
    taking the baby away? They sound like they really want to help - Would
    they be insulted if you asked them to cook, clean, laundry, or make phone 
    calls? [This didn't work with Kevin's folks] 
    
    I'll stop rambling after this last tidbit, it was DREADFUL having my
    in-laws visit ALL day both days I was in the hospital.  Besides
    being exhausted, dripping from every oriface, breastfeeding was a learned 
    behavior and I really didn't appreciate the audience. Who says
    grandparents aren't visitors?
    
    Good luck Wendy - You've impressed me with your logic SO many times,
    I look forward to reading your reply on how you managed this one!
    
    Rochelle
    

    
    Yes Wendy, you and Marc sure do have your hands full with his parents.
    I'm so shocked that they could actually talk like that, never mind
    thinking they could take her/him away from you so soon after birth for 
    a whole week!  They really have nerve.  My opinion is the same as many
    others, I would get Marc to talk to them, or the 2 of you sit down and
    talk to them together before this goes on any further. The longer you 
    don't say anything, the more plans they may start to make, and the
    further along the problem will get. 
    
    I seem to have the opposite problem with my parents... my father and
    my Step mom actually....they dont seem to be very excited at all.  And
    the hardest part is, that my step mom LOVES infants (has her daycare
    license) and now takes care of one 10 mos old 2 days a week. Well, this
    childs mother is about to give birth to another in Sept (me in October),and 
    thats all I ever hear about...."I can't wait for so-so to have her
    baby"...over and over again..   Nothing about can't wait for ME to have 
    your grandchild ("step" I know...but...still..)....Just so-n-so's 
    baby. Granted, she will be taking care of this infant 2 days a week
    later on....(and will not be doing daycare for me because of
    traveltimes) but it just really hurts hearing it over and over, and
    not hearing much excitment for mine.    Luckily my Mom is really
    excited for me, and about being a "grandma"....so thats takes my mind
    off of it a bit...   Guess I can't have everything.    
    
 	Chris
    

.-2 mentions that it sounds like these people really want to help.  It
doesn't sound like that at all to me ... It sounds like there is more
than the issues of baby involved here ... in effect they are denying
your marriage to their son for whatever reason, and therefore, the baby
is their son's baby which they intend to raise for him (probably because
at the same time their son is too young to be married and have a baby).
In essence, you don't exist in their eyes.

What to do ?  Good question ... but you will have to get Marc's 110%
co-operation that they must be stood up ... unflinchingly and *no*
compromises, whether they are his parents or not.  They will have to
learn that this is going to be yours and Marc's baby and that you are
rearing the child.  This is going to be anything but easy.

(My grandmothers were shall we say possessive and the family rifts
lived on for years!)

Stuart

    	Marc and I have had many long talks about how we are going to
    handle his parents (and mine, we have problems on my side as well, they
    just don't come up to visit ;-)).

    	It took until last night for us to feel safe enough from his
    parent's assault (insult) for us to talk about it rationally.

    	One of the earlier replies to this note helped. The title was
    something to the effect "their hearts are in the right places". When I
    first saw that, I wanted to respond and say, no, you don't understand,
    these people are destructive, they don't care about *us* they only want
    to fill their own needs.

    	Then I realized that both of Marc's parents are just that, children
    who have never had their needs met. They are stuck in some sort of
    development phase. They don't know (and I dare say, may never know) how
    to communicate on an adult-adult level, they only know how to
    communicate on a child-child level. They also can't fulfill *our* needs
    as parents because they don't have a clue as to what we need, they only
    know what they want. I honestly believe that they think they are "doing
    the right thing" and that because they do not recognize us as adults
    (or I as the mother of this child, you are right Stuart) that they feel
    they have some sort of obligation to take care of him. Having realized
    this, for one of the first times, I was able to get beyond the anger
    towards them and actually feel some pity for them.

    	This, however, does *not* excuse unacceptable behavior, it only
    makes it easier for us to understand where it is coming from.

    	Marc and I are going to write down a set of agreed upon boundaries,
    for example "no one takes the child out of daycare except for Marc or
    myself" (we've had visions of the parents surprising us by showing up
    one afternoon and taking the child "just for the afternoon") and we are
    going to stick to these boundaries. By writing it down we can be sure
    of consistency and not fall trap to the "well Marc said this, and now
    you are saying this" problem.

    	"There will be no unsupervised visits" etc.

    	We are also going to practice some responses to situations that we
    anticipate, like: "We are the parents and we have decided no" or "we
    do not want an untrained puppy around the baby".

    	I think that initially, it will be very difficult and there will be
    a lot of hard feelings (on their side) and guilt (on our side) isn't
    there always with parent-conflicts?

    	But I'm hoping that with repetition, and consistency, they will
    recognize where the limits are. If they do not agree to our limits and
    boundaries we have the option of telling them to stay away.

    	I appreciate the support and words of wisdom that have come from
    the people in this notesfile, Thanks.

    				Wendy

    Wendy,
    
    Best wishes to you and Marc.  If necessary - consider a third party to
    help you guys through this one.  Everyone has opinions.  Sometimes when
    you are involved it's hard to be impartial.
    
    Personally, I was frightened by this comment:  "The mother thought that
    "mama" or "mommy" would be a cuter name for her instead of "grandma". 
    Sounds like she needs help, big time.  Maybe I'm reading into it, but
    it doesn't feel right to me.
    
    Take care, Wendy.
    marcia 
     

re: -1 

Well, not necessarily *one* mommy and *one* daddy, but I agree that a
grandmother is not a mommy or mommy-figure unless by chance she is actually
raising the child.  *Definately*, Wendy's mother-in-law doesn't qualify! 

re; Wendy's last note

<    	Then I realized that both of Marc's parents are just that, children
<    who have never had their needs met. They are stuck in some sort of
<    development phase. 

Oh, my, does this sound familiar!!!  My mother was like this, too, in different
ways.  She often drove me *crazy*.  Finally one day Shellie described her
to me as being like a 2 year old or younger (Evan was 2 at the time), and we
finally started putting this in perspective, and even being able to anticipate
behaviours from her better!!!!! 

I have good news: my mother has changed tremendously over the last couple
of years.  Evan is now 3 1/2 and she gets along better with him and with us.
I don't even know how my mother is because she has changed so much that now
I don't know what to expect.  Wendy, there is hope.  Your parents-in-law
may actually change one day, too.  In the meantime, hang in there.  I'm glad
you and your husband are making these firm rules and practicing the words.
That will be *very* helpful.  It's basically what I had to do with my mom,
too.  I had to decide on my limits and set boundaries and stick to them.
Then she had to abide by *my* rules.  It has worked well, and I think it
will work well for you, too.

I'm also glad that you are sharing with us about this rough time.  Many of us
have been through rough times with parents and in-laws, too, and we share in
your grief (though your mom-in-law seems to be a severe case).  Thank you for
letting us in, and for allowing us to support you.  You are worth it, and you
*will* succeed. 

      Carol

    Please make sure the day-care people _know_ beyond a shadow of a doubt
    that the grand-parents may not take the child out without written
    permission from a parent.
    
    		-John Bishop

John:

Juli's daycare center (keeping in mind that EVERY daycare center is different
and has a different set of policies/procedures) ... will only release
a child to the person(s) listed on the Release Form.  This form
requires the person(s) name, address AND SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.  When
this "person" comes to get the child, the info on the form MUST match
his/her driver's license and SS card.  Doesn't matter WHO YOU ARE, the
kid isn't going to be released to you unless you are listed on the form
AND have the matching IDs.

Over-protective ... heck NO!!!!  I just made sure I had enough people
listed to "cover us" in case a worst case situation occurs.

    It's true that most centers are very strict about who they release
    a child to (especially touchy with conested custody cases) but if
    you have the less formal arrangement of family day care, you have
    to be a lot more explicit about the directions for things like
    this. 
    
    --bonnie

    The daycare center that I have enrolled my daughter also has a release
    form.  They will not release my daughter to anyone that is not on the
    list.  The list contains SS#, and the persons signature which they
    match at the time of release.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Angie

    re : .41-.43,  while most daycare situations have the "list", I have
    an agreement with both my son's daycare and his school....EVEN if
    the name is on the list, NO-ONE takes my son unless I have sent in
    a written note or PERSONALLY call them to tell them so-n-so is
    coming.  This especially helped out when I was concerned about
    well-meaning relatives wanting to "help out" by picking him up
    when I was in the hospital recently.
    
    Wendy,  I think you and Marc are taking the right approach with
    writing down what you feel best; I would only suggest that you also
    find a way to include (if you can find some) some POSITIVE things 
    to make it more pleasant (:-{) for all involved....for example, 
    instead of saying "no untrained puppy around the baby", think of 
    rewording to when you *might* consider having a puppy around (trained, 
    certain age for your child.....)...when I had conflicts with my father 
    over how I was raising my son (by NO means anything like your's !!), 
    I found he was much more receptive when he felt he was being heard and
    not ignored (e.g., Dad, I understand what you're saying/how you're
    feeling, and I will take your opinions on X into consideration)
    
    Bottom-line, though, you have to do what you and Marc feel is best
    for YOUR baby......everyone else's advice, whether they be friends,
    family, doctor, co-worker...... is often helpful in helping you sort
    out what you really want/need/feel is best....but YOU are the parents.
    
    Best of luck,
    Debbi

My wife and I had a daughter 6 weeks ago and my parents are driving
us both mad.  I was wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation 
and has any advice on how to tactfully handle this.

This is their first grandchild and they are obviously very proud, but... They
come over to see us and pass the baby from one to the other every five or 
ten minutes, they pass comments on what she is wearing - "Oh no, you can't
have a little girl dressed in blue! Oh no, you don't want to buy her that", etc.
They insist on seeing us every weekend, and then on Saturday try to make
arrangements for Sunday too. If she's lying in her cot and makes a few 
squeaks (she does a lot of that), they'll take her out of there without asking
whether that's OK. Similarly, on Christmas Eve, we arrived at their house. I
took her in in her car seat and sat her in the hall, then said, "It's OK, my wife 
will get her out while I get the other stuff". I go to the car, come back and
the seat is empty.

They seem to be "taking over", undermining us as parents and generally 
interfering. Their intentions are good however, so it makes it difficult to just
come out and say the truth about how we feel. I know they'd get upset, but with
the way things are now, they're driving my wife and me up the wall.

Thanks

	Ian

    Boy Ian do you have a problem.  We had this kinda problem with my
    in-laws.  My parents were fine and only did this once, but my
    mother-in-law was a different story.  She would basicly do the same as
    yours parents are doing.  My husband is an only child and this was
    their first grandchild, my parents had 3 others at the time when Alex
    was born. 
    
    Well my mother-in-law held/picked-up/tried to tell us one thing to much
    and my husband got fed up with it and finally told her in a nice way to
    lay off and we would raise him our way and not to hold him to much
    cause he had to get used to being left in his seat etc.  She finally
    agreed after they argued for a half hour.  And know Alex is two and she
    buys him everything he wants.  I think she is getting back at us for
    what we did.
    
    Maybe you and your wife should tell these happy grandparents not to
    pick-up/pass the baby around to much.  Babies are subseptebal(sp) to
    catching alot of germs/colds from others.   So maybe you guys should
    tell them in a nice way not to hold your child so often.  This will
    cause you some problems when you child gets older cause it will want to
    get picked up all the time and you don't want that to happen.
    
    Well I hope this helps you out.  Good luck.
    
    Liz

Does this sound familiar!

A few comments:

Your daughter is only 6 weeks old. Give them some time for the novelty to 
subside. Everyone wants to hold a newborn baby. Once she starts to crawl it may 
not like to be held and the grandparents will marvel in how mobile your child
is 8^).

Whether you realize it or not you are very lucky to have grandparents that are
willing to babysit every weekend. Take advantage of this...get away with your
wife and enjoy your marriage. Don't think of this time as neglecting your child,
think of it as building your family foundation.

Accept as much help and advice as you are comfortable with, but if you feel they
are interfering with your raising the child then politely make it clear to them
that you appreciate their advice but you are going to raise your child your way.
My inlaws sound a lot like yours, and I've had to lay the law down with them. I
think they are just trying to help, they probably think you may not know what
you're doing. In time you will earn their respect and when you disagree with 
them they will honor your decisions. 

Good luck,

Chris

    	Gosh, I've just got to reply to this one ;-)


    	By now most of you know about our in-law (his) problems, well...
    they continue. I really understand what you are going through, it may
    sound trivial that the grandparents are holding your baby a lot but to
    you it isn't. In a way it represents the parents interfering with your
    life (not doubt) *again*.

    	When this recently happened with us, I literally held my tongue and
    kept reminding myself that *we* are the baby's parent's and they are
    not. *NO ONE* can replace us (you see part of this is as much my
    insecurity as their obsession) I held my tongue so much during that
    weekend that the following week I ended up getting a mammoth sore
    throat, coincidence? perhaps.

    	There are certainly limits (boundaries) however. Spencer was in the
    middle of his first cold and when they (a tribe of 9 people) came to
    visit us, he was tired and cranky as were we. The first evening Spencer
    fell asleep and we put him to bed. The grandmother proceeded to have a
    literal temper tantrum the next day saying that she was not being
    allowed to hold the baby. Basically Marc told her that sorry, the
    baby's health comes first and if he needs to sleep then he gets to
    sleep.

    	It's tough, they (as a group) make comments through the baby
    to us (you know, "oooh, doesn't your mommy know that you should be
    doing this... or that... or whatever") because they are afraid of
    addressing us directly.

    	One thing that we have learned is to have a planned schedule the
    next time they visit (and no longer will they come 9 at at time again),
    we didn't have a plan this time and all of those people just sat in the
    living room getting drunk (another story) watching football (in *our*
    house!), expecting us to wait on them, and having no desire (why should
    they?) to leave. Next time, we will set visiting hours or plan to meet
    them somewhere where there is an agreed upon time limit.

    	Each time they come to visit, it does get easier, remember that
    *you* are the baby's parents, and even if they are grandparents, blood
    does not guarantee a relationship. You do not owe them time with your
    baby, whatever time you *grant* is on *your* terms. It sounds a little
    harsh and I'm sure that some will disagree but it takes the power away
    from your parents and gives it back to you where it belongs.


    			Wendy

    
    Oh, Wendy, I couldn't agree more.  I couldn't hold my toungue anymore
    when my in-laws (his mother) said "Grandparents have rights too"  NO
    you have no RIGHTS to my child.  We are the parents, and we'll say how
    the child is raised.  Any time you spend with my child will be on my
    terms.  That time is a privilege, not a right.  (This after such things
    as waking a two week old up because it was a convenient time for THEM
    to take it for a walk!)
    
    I am glad to hear someone else with that same opinion.
    
    Thanks,
    Bev

Oh to find a happy medium ...

My grandparents so dogged my mother (their d-i-l) over raising me that my
mother decreed that she would NEVER interfere in our parenting.  Well,
she took that to it's logical conclusion so that when they came to visit
us 10 years ago not long after the arrival of our first -- she hardly held
her grand-daughter ... didn't feed her ... didn't change her ... basically
did nothing to help.  This from a woman who loves babies.

And it has stayed that way now with 3 of ours, 2 of my brother's and 3 of
my sister's.  She is almost totally hands off, unless asked.

And this is every bit as frustrating as too much interference ... and
in some ways worse, because not only is she hardly a grandparent, she
is no longer much of a "mother" to her family either.

I can assure you a happy medium is DEFINITELY preferable to this!

Stuart

    
    Not to rathole or anything 8-)....but, Ian (.45), what did you end
    up naming your daughter?   Molly?
    
    Carol

No, the wife went off that so we went with a slight, if somewhat
seasonal, variation.....

	Holly Rose Fischer


Ian

ps I haven't seen my parents to tell 'em off yet! I'll let you know how I get on

    I think most parents had some sort of problems with new grandparents. 
    My parents lived less than a quarter of a mile away from us when our
    kids were first born.  My father was always over because he was retired
    and he was not afraid to give his 2 cents worth on child raising.  It
    did not bother my wife or myself too bad.  Anyway involved grandparents
    make great babysitters and their babysitting price was great (free)! 
    So if they aggravate you too much let them sit for a night and go away
    to with your spouse.

    
    	Now this is also a point that I don't seem to understand about the
    in-laws. They keep telling us to go on vacation and they will (gladly)
    take care of the baby for us while we are away. (like they would be
    trusted with our baby in the first place)
    
    	For cryin' out loud! Why on earth do you think we decided to start
    a family and go through all the trouble of pregnancy and delivery? so
    that we could go places without the baby?! We decided to have a baby
    because we wanted to start a *family*. To me a family vacations
    together and spends time together.
    
    	Granted things may change in the future when Spencer gets older
    (although I personally don't see much of a change happening), but
    because both Marc and I work, we look forward to all of the time we can
    spend with Spencer when we are not at work. And to boot, we will have
    time to spend with each other.
    
    	What is the mentality (other than ownership) that suggests we go on
    a vacation without our baby? (Please don't say respect or care of us
    the parents because that is simply not the case).
    
    		Wendy for whom this is a *very* HOT topic

    Wendy, I'm glad you said that!  For me, a vacation without Alexandra
    would feel like an *exile*.  I have enough guilt about time with her
    (high or low quality!) being restricted to nights and weekends, as it
    is with all working parents.  I *love* her; I need vacations from
    *work*, not from my daughter.
    
    Sure, we get ticked off at each other (slam doors, kick wastebaskets,
    plead our respective cases to the cat) and I don't mind the odd evening
    on my own.  But no matter how well-meaning a grandparent's offer is, it
    still reminds me of the old joke: Grand Prize, one week in Pittsburgh! 
    Second prize, TWO weeks in Pittsburgh!
    
    Leslie

    	Wendy,
    
    	Just wait until Spencer is 2-3 years old.  
    
    	Katie:  What's that?
    
    	Me: That's a moose.
    
    	Katie:  What's that?  (pointing to the same moose)
    
    	Me: That's a moose.
    
    	(repeat about 10 times until...)
    
    	Katie:  What's that?  (pointing to the same moose)
    
    	Me: That's a moose.
    
    	Katie: No, it's not!
    
    	ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!  Why do you ASK me if you won't believe what I
    tell you!!!!!  :-} 
    
    	Repeat this whole thing with about 4 more objects over a half an hour
    period while trying to carry on a conversation with another adult and you 
    begin to understand the reasoning for getting away for a while.
    
    :-)
    
    Tracey, 
    Who loves being Katie's mommy -- *most* of the time.
    	
    	

>    
>        Granted things may change in the future when Spencer gets older
>    (although I personally don't see much of a change happening), but
>    because both Marc and I work, we look forward to all of the time we can
>    spend with Spencer when we are not at work. And to boot, we will have
>    time to spend with each other.

I know it seems hard to envision, but after 10 years of children, I can
assure you, we would very much like to be able to take a vacation (albeit
only a few days) away from our kids.  Children do stifle your relationship
with your spouse ...  You end up being parents ... you forget how to be
a loving spouse as you were early on in your marriage ... and you may
forget how to be yourself.  You NEED time for yourself to continue to be
you, you need time for your spouse and not a parent to develop your
partnership.  You need these things for yourselves and you need them in
order to be better parents.

It is easier to start off making time for both yourself and your spouse
rather than discover it 5 to 10 years from now when you discover you've
lost touch with your spouse as a person rather than a parent and suddenly
find you are meeting in front of a judge in a divorce court, or as we did
in a hospital where my wife was being treated for depression.

We cannot manage a vacation without the kids, but we have had a couple
nights alone, but more importantly started to go out regularly both as a
couple and individually to things we enjoy.

So yes, the idea of a few days without the kids is NOT a bad idea.  On the
other hand from what you've described earlier, your in-laws do seem to
have ulterior motives.  That's something you have to reconcile with yourselves
and the grandparents.  I'm sure there will come a time when you'll
understand what I mean!

Stuart

    Wendy,

    There are lots of reasons why parents want to vacation without
    kids of any age.  

    Sometimes it's simply that interest or business calls them
    somewhere they don't think is good for the baby.  People do hike
    Nepal with babies on their backs, but I wouldn't be among them. 

    Many parents find that after a few months of intense baby care,
    their personal relationship deteriorates because they never have
    the time or energy to talk to each other, let alone make love or
    read a book.  It's great if yours hasn't, if you're finding it
    energizing, but that isn't always the case, especially for mothers
    who suffer from post-partum depression.  Or for the parents of
    kids with chronic colic or medical problems or other stress
    factors. 

    Not so very long ago, parents who needed some space away from the
    kids couldn't leave the kids with someone else without being
    considered cruel and neglectful.  Your in-laws might be reflecting
    their own wish that they had had some space when they were new
    parents.  

    Depending on the temprements and interests of family members, as
    well as practical considerations, there are times when everybody
    will be going different ways, alone or in small groups, for long
    or short periods of time.  For instance, I sometimes take
    vacations alone when I want to do some serious work on my writing,
    which doesn't interest anyone else and also makes me very poor
    company.  Neil has taken the kids on vacations without me when he
    has more  vacation time than I do. We usually take family
    vacations, but once we went to Australia for three weeks when the
    kids were 3 and 13, leaving them with my parents.  Now that Kat's
    older, she sometimes opts to stay home. 

    When Kat was our only child, we did more things as a family unit. 
    Now, if one of us takes Steven and the other takes David, then
    each boy has the undivided attention of one parent.  When all of
    us are together, each boy has half the attention of each parent,
    which remains two halves and doesn't add up to one.  Plus we each
    get to share special interests, rather than trying to find
    something everybody likes.  Steven and I like architecture.  Neil
    stands in the doorway and yawns.  Everybody has a better time if
    I take Steven on a house tour and Neil stays home with the baby. 

    Your in-laws might even simply be reflecting a desire to see more
    of their new grandchild.  Neil's mother used to urge us to leave
    the kids with her for a while, just so she could see them for
    longer.  We finally took her up on it and left Kat and Steven with
    her for an overnight celebration of our fifth anniversary.  She
    didn't offer again :)

    None of this means that YOU should want to vacation without
    Spencer, only that many people do want time away from their
    children andd it doesn't reflect anything about the quality of the
    parenting or of the family.  It's just a matter of personal
    situation and taste.

    --bonnie

    re: .48
    
    Wendy, 
    
    not having such a situation as yours makes it tough for me to truly
    relate, but of all the things you've described, the one that got my
    blood boiling was the part about the grandparents saying things like:
    (paraphrasing)"Doesn't your mommy/daddy know that you should be doing
    this or that...". In my opinion, such talk is totally out of line for
    two main reasons (and a host of other reasons):
     
    	- it might cause the child to be confused about what is considered 
    	'right' vs. what is 'wrong'(i.e. your standards vs.those of the 
    	grandparents)
    
    	- it might cause the child to be confused about who is telling the
    	truth. In their basic 'black-and-white' world, what kind of message
    	do they get when mom/dad say "A" and grammy/grampy say "B"?
    
    And of all the problems you've decribed, this is the one I would take
    immediate action to correct. (In fact, we've encountered some minor
    instances of such behavior from both sides of the family, and each time
    we've very quickly and decisively made it clear that we play by our own
    rules, and not necessarily those that we had been raised by.) Luckily,
    everyone was able to accept this and the incidents were quickly put to
    rest.
    
    I wish you the best of luck (and I thank god that our parents are
    comparatively easy to deal with...:^)
    
    Freddie
    
    P.S. Nick's 2yrs/3mos, and so far we've only spent 1 overnight away from 
    him, and you know something...we wouldn't have it any other way...;^)  
    
    P.P.S. It was one of the hardest & longest nights I can remember...:^):^)

    
    	I didn't mean to imply that anyone who goes on vacation without
    their child is a "bad" parent, and if I offended anyone, it was
    certainly not my intention.
    
    	I think that the distinction in my case is that the in-laws keep
    *insisting* that we go on vacation. It rings of falsehood and trickery
    and *that* is why I am so opposed to the idea of a vacation without the
    baby in this particular instance.
    
    	Although again (in our case) I can't imagine Marc and I going on a
    vacation *together* without Spencer. I admit that things may change in
    the future but for now I don't see it.
    
    
    	As fate would have it, Marc "gave" me a vacation (just me not him
    or Spencer) for three days at a place called Kripaula (it's a yoga
    community that I have been to before). I was very grateful for the gift
    and am looking forward to going away for three days to regain some
    personal strength (sometime this summer).
    
    	The difference here is that Spencer will be taken care of and will
    be safe. I know that I will miss them both but I am looking forward to
    this break. 
    
    	So you see, I see and understand the need for getting away and
    having breaks. What I can not understand (and what I could not make
    clear in an earlier reply) is the mentality that we should go on
    vacation so that we can accomodate the needs of the grandparents.
    
    	I realize that they have their own hurts and pains from their lives
    and parenting experience but their unresolved pains and issues are
    *not* reason for us to act in any manner that makes us feel
    uncomfortable.
    
    	The issue is so complex that I am not sure that my intent is clear.
    
    				sigh.
    

    
>    	I didn't mean to imply that anyone who goes on vacation without
>    their child is a "bad" parent, and if I offended anyone, it was
>    certainly not my intention.
    
    Thanks for clarifying your position, I've been biting my lip to the
    point of blood shed.
    

    I moved the following 6 notes to note 31, which covers Travel Without
    Children.  The moderators' consensus is to restore them to this
    location.
    
    Laura
    co-mod

    
    
    I would like to just interject this and hope that no one feels
    offended, its just an opinion.
    
    Grandparents are special adults (most cases) that your child has the
    opportunity to develop a wonderful relationship with.  Your child will
    develop many relationships in their life apart from you.  Some good,
    some bad and thats all part of life, learning and growing.
    
    Most grandparenting relationships that I have been exposed to, which
    may not be the case here (I can't judge that), could be viewed as
    undermining and spoiling of children.  The showering of attention, love
    and gifts.  That is not a parenting relationship.  That is not trying
    to take over your child.  That is usually a person who is trying to
    develop a close relationship different from your own with your child in
    the few hours a week, month or year that they have to spend with your
    child.  That is probably how they see it.  They've raised their
    children (the best they felt they could), giving them values for life,
    doing the day to day care and upbringing of a child.  Now they're
    grandparents who just want to enjoy their grandchild.
    
    
    RE:  Grandparents have rights!  I think thats a topic that is coming up
    more and more in the news.  Their are actually states who are passing 
    laws giving Grandparents visiting rights to their grandchildren.  Most
    cases are Divorce cases.  I don't think your mother in law meant 
    anything more than, I want a grandmother relationship, time to develop
    it with this new person.   Its a new situation for both of you and
    you're just not ready to relinquish any time to anyone else yet and
    that your right.  

    re: last
    
    	I was doing okay with your reply until the last paragraph.
    
    	I am a firm believer that grandparents do *not* have automatic
    rights when it comes to grandchildren. I believe that they must *earn*
    their rights. (and that goes for all family memebers whether they be
    aunts/uncles, cousins, etc.)
    
    	I have heard and read about the court cases where grandparents are
    being given court forced visitation rights and it makes me very
    concerned. I honestly do not believe that *some* of these decisions are
    in the best interest of the children and that instead, these actions
    serve the needs of the adults (controlling, manipulation, retaliation,
    etc.)
    
    	I would very sincerely be interested to hear of why you think 
    "grandparents have rights!"  - blanket statement.
    
    			Wendy
    

    	I agree with .70 
    
    	I have seen a tremendous change in my own parents as each
    grandchild has entered their lives.  With the first one they did come
    off as trying to take over and tell my sister how the child should be 
    cared for, but now that I look back on it, they were just trying to 
    help a first time mom who didn't know the ropes in the best way they
    knew how.  But once my sister talked to them and let them know how 
    she felt, things changed (not right away and not drastically, but 
    it was obvious how they were trying.)   Now that they have 4
    grandchildren the novelty has worn off and they now spend time just 
    being grandparents.
    	I personally wouldn't know what we would do without Shayne's 
    grandparents on both sides doing what they call "Grandparents right
    to spoil".  With the tremendous financial burden we have come up 
    against since Shayne has come into our lives, I quite honestly don't 
    know what we would have done without the gifts of clothes and toys and 
    free babysitting without the grandparents.  
    	I have learned to grin and bear the seemingly "intrusive" comments 
    and be thankful that my son and I have people who truly care about us,
    and try to help us with their knowledge and experience.  
    	One thing that amazes me, is why do we take the advice of total 
    strangers, but when it's family we get very defensive and they are 
    butting in??? 
    
    just MHO 
    Malinda 

While I can understand that grandparents will spoil, will disagree with
your parenting styles and so on, I think, judging by what Wendy has
written before is that there are more family dynamics involved here than
just doting, zealous, jealous grandparents.  So all these comments about
having to come to terms with the idea that they are only trying to help
and or dote on their grandchild are not really going to give Wendy the
answer she is seeking. 

Regretably, I think, Wendy, that you are going to first have to find a
solution to the other family dynamics that you have with your in-laws
before you will ever find a way of graciously accepting their doting on
your son; (whether you will ever be exactly happy or not about it or 
comfortable with it will be another matter).  A discussion of those
dynamics probably doesn't belong here though.

As to whether grandparents have rights really depends on whether you believe
that parents have rights over their children, whereupon the discussion will
boil down further to the definition of what is a right.  We have no rights
over our own children ... we have responsibility for them which confers
upon us a certain status which might be perceived as a right.  Society
defines certain roles for us in the upbringing of our children that if
denied us, such as when children are taken as wards of court and so on,
we feel our "rights" are violated, when in fact this is not really a right.

In terms of parental visitation rights and their grandparental counterparts,
these are anything but rights ... they are privileges ... if abused they
can be taken away.  Your rights cannot be taken away.

Grandparental rights, as in "grandparents have rights", aren't rights either,
nor are they really the privileges as described above ... they too are 
societal norms ... In years gone by, the typical family was probably far
more close knit across the generations ... it certainly was in mine ...
and grandparents played a far greater role in the overall family.  Today,
with families moving across continents and so on this isn't the case.  We
all expect more privacy, more individuality, the right to be unhindered in
the development of our own life.  There are elders out there who feel that
they are, as a result, being rejected by their own children, and thus
are afraid of being rejected from seeing their grandchildren grow up.  Let's
face it, watching children grow up is a marvellous experience.

It wouldn't surprise me that if elders feel rejected by their own children
they would probably feel that they definitely don't want to be rejected
from their grandchildren, so you'd see a "grandparents have rights too"
type reaction, confusing the privileges with societal norms.

Long winded, huh ?

An explanantion ? Maybe...

Helpful ?  Anything in those ramblings help at all Wendy ?

Cheers,

Stuart

My children only knew their paternal grandmother, a wonderful lady who spoiled
them rotten, a very short time.  They could not have had a better oma and we
all mourned her passing.  My parents are too far away to be a big
influence in their life.  When you don't have a relationship to grandparents,
it is a part of life that is sadly missing.

But I wanted to tell another story.  My niece who is now 18 will shortly have a
baby (maybe has already).  She herself was the product of a divorce (her mother
left when she was two, she was only 17 when Mindi was born).  Jim, my brother 
remarried a divorcee who had two daughters of her own.  My sister-in-law Sandi
absolutely hated Mindi who naturally hated her back.  She began running away
when she was about 15, at 17 she ran away and got married, pregnant, divorced,
(in the space of 8 months) and soon the baby will be born.

She has no job, didn't finish high school, and can't go back and live with her
father.  Her natural mother, who has since "grown up" has had Mindi live with 
her at times but has a husband who hates children and is not in a stable
financial situation herself.

Mindi will probably give the baby up for adoption which may be the best solution
in this case.  What I find sad and distressing is that her step mother is
pressuring her to give the child to a lawyer friend of hers so that she can
still be a "grandmother" to this baby.  When Mindi's natural mother suggested
that she wanted to take the baby, Sandi's reaction was "over my dead body".

When "grandparents" becoming interferring and involved to this extent in the
lives of their children, I think this is beyond the bounds of acceptable
behaviour.  I could take a lot of "interference" from my mother-in-law because
I knew she adored my children, had the best of intentions and, as my mother
had told me once when I complained about my grandmother, "They are with us for
such a short time, we should profit while we can."  But you are still the
parents, your word goes.

Cheryl

    	Well if anything, this topic is certainly getting lots of mileage
    at my home in the evenings. ;-)

    	Thank you Stuart for the clarification of rights versus privileges.
    You have hit the proverbial nail on the head (for me) and it is from
    that view that my concern arises when I read about Grandparents being
    granted (by courts) "rights". This discussion of rights reminds of the
    children's book Brother Eagle, Sister Sky: (a must if only for the
    illustrations)

    	How can you buy the sky?
    	How can you own the wind and rain?

    	As a corollary, how can anyone think that they should automatically
    be a part of someone's life just because their is blood? We own
    nothing, even our children are given to us and may at any time be taken
    away.

    	This entire discussion may come across as cruel hearted, but ours
    is simply not the case where we have loving, doting grandparents (on
    both sides not just Marc's - it's just that my parents live so far away
    that we rarely see them - they'll be up in the spring, no doubt you'll
    be introduced to them then ;-)).

    	Stuart, you are correct, some dynamics which are beyond this
    discussion and perhaps this notesfile need to be resolved before we can
    come to some sort of peace in this situation. We're working on it, we
    really are and feedback from this discussion has given us things to
    consider as well as things to reject.

    	Don't you think that it is difficult for me to say that we as
    parents must protect our baby and hence visitations with (certain)
    relatives will be short and supervised. Do you realize that it puts me
    in the same spot years from now if Spencer has decided that we have
    caused him some harm through our parenting (or lack of) skills?

    	Setting boundaries is a tricky business. Sometimes, they come back
    to haunt you. But for now, we have to do what we *honestly* think is
    right and in the best interest for *our* family.

    			Wendy

    It's hard for those of us who grew up in families that were still
    functioning as families, if not fully healthy, to understand the
    workings of a dysfunctional family.  Things that work for us
    aren't much help in trying to restore a healthy family that
    nourishes and strengthens all its members. 
    
    Things that are issues of overpossessiveness, lack of
    communication, or simple jealousy in a functioning family become
    issues of control, secrecy and denial, and retaliation in a
    dysfunctional family.  Most of the ways a functional family deals
    with disagreements over a family member's roles depend on the
    existence of the family dynamic, of bonds that include both give
    and take, and a notion of individual boundaries as well as
    reciprocal responsibilities.  
    
    those bonds, boundaries, and reciprocal responsibilities have been
    distorted or destroyed in a dysfunctional family.  Whereas in my
    family I know if I explain clearly to my mother-in-law that I
    think she's teaching my kids to depend too much on material
    rewards by taking them shopping every time we visit her, and she
    explains in return that where she lives, there isn't much else she
    can do to share an activity with them, we can agree that she won't
    take them shopping at the expensive department store every time,
    they'll go to tag sales or the drug store some of the time. 
    That's because the apparent issue and the real issue are close to
    the same -- our mutual desire to make the kids happy.  Maybe there
    are side issues that I feel like she's trying to buy them away
    from me, but it's not enough to rupture the basic relationship.
    
    In a dysfunctional family, the real issue would be over who
    controls who.  I couldn't count on saying "This is my boundary,
    this is how I feel, please respect it" and having it respected. 
    I'd have to say something firmer, and probably more
    confrontational, like "You will not take my kids to the store." 
    And in all likelihood she'd proceed to sneak them behind my back
    or something to prove that she was in charge.  Or something like
    that.  
    
    It takes a lot of courage to admit one's family is dysfunctional. 
    It takes even more courage to try to heal one's self and one's
    world.  I think Spencer's got a great mom and dad, and that even
    if he goes through a stage of resenting his parents and blaming
    them for what they didn't do (as the mother of a teenager, I can
    assure you: They all do that!) it will be brief because he'll have
    the assurance that you loved him and confidence in the existence
    of the basic relationships.  
    
    --bonnie
    

>    	As a corollary, how can anyone think that they should automatically
>    be a part of someone's life just because their is blood? 
    
	You say this this as if it's ludicrous. The fact that there is a
    blood line does make someone automatically a part of someones life,
    genetically speaking. By this do you mean it's absurd for your in-laws
    to feel they should be able to share sometime with their grandchildren?
    
    
>    	This entire discussion may come across as cruel hearted, but ours
>    is simply not the case where we have loving, doting grandparents (on
>    both sides not just Marc's - it's just that my parents live so far away
>    that we rarely see them - they'll be up in the spring, no doubt you'll
>    be introduced to them then ;-)).

    	Could this be the rub? Sounds a little like sour grapes, his
    parents being closer than yours. I'm sure their guilty of everything
    you percieve, but, would you have the same convictions if your parents
    did the same things on their infrequent visits?
    
    
    > Do you realize that it puts me in the same spot years from now if 
    > Spencer has decided that we have caused him some harm through our
    > parenting (or lack of) skills?

      Like for instance denying him a closer relationship with his grand-
    parents?
    
>    But for now, we have to do what we *honestly* think is
>    right and in the best interest for *our* family.

     Don't you consider immediate blood relations family? 
    
    Wendy, believe me, I'm not trying to engage you in a confrontation. 
    As a matter of fact I fear that when my first is born in 9 weeks I will
    share alot of your sentiments regarding my in-laws. And believe me my
    mother in-law is truely meddlesome. My wife is 5.3 years younger than
    me and I married her when she was 23. She had never lived outside her
    parents home and as a result her mother felt she had to inform her how
    to live as wife and husband. Her mother would try to guilt her into
    visiting more often. I finally had a huge confrontation with her mother
    and told her how it was going to be, she was hurt and cried but we got
    over it and now enjoy a much better relationship.
    
    Her mother is so excited about the baby coming, her first grandchild,
    that I fear she'll forget about the confrontation we had and some of
    the things I said to her about trying to run our life. However, I will
    not try, notice I said try, to restrict the babys bonding with her parents.
    
    I also realize that part of my disdain, in the begining of our marriage
    and a little still, for her mother is because my mother died before
    ever seeing a grandchild from any of her four children. Hell, she never
    even met my wife. In conjunction with that my father is alot older than
    her parents and doesn't get out and about much so I resent that her
    parents are in on everything and mine aren't.
    
    And finally, I never had grandparents growing up. They died before I
    was born and I always felt that void.
    
    Best of Luck!
    
    Sincerely,
    Chester

re: .77

Given your background, I think this note was a good prospect for composing 
your entry outside of NOTES, sitting on it, coming back to it, editing it and 
then deciding to enter it.  People who don't want to "engage . . . in a 
confrontation" don't use loaded terms like "sour grapes."

A couple of your comments came across to me as very sarcastic, so I don't 
really know what your intent was, but I'll respond to them.

    >> Do you realize that it puts me in the same spot years from now if 
    >> Spencer has decided that we have caused him some harm through our
    >> parenting (or lack of) skills?

    >  Like for instance denying him a closer relationship with his grand-
    >  parents?

	If that "closer relationship" is harmful to Spencer, then yes, 
	that's what she should do.  Whether Spencer likes it or not.  

>>    But for now, we have to do what we *honestly* think is
>>    right and in the best interest for *our* family.

>     Don't you consider immediate blood relations family? 

	From the context, it's pretty clear to me that she means nuclear
	family.  Her, Marc, and Spencer.  And I agree with her statement.

Note that I am only agreeeing with the principles.  I cannot comment on 
whether the principles apply or not, because I have not personally witnessed 
the situation.  I agree wholeheartedly with Stuart -- there's a lot going on 
here even without the Spencer issue.

I don't find the "rights" discussion very helpful; I DO believe that 
grandparents have "rights," just by the nature of their being grandparents.  I 
also believe that parents have "rights", and kids have "rights."  
Unfortunately sometimes those rights conflict and one person's right is 
subservient to another; sometimes the "rights"  are limited.  But that doesn't 
mean they don't exist.

Clay

>People who don't want to "engage . . . in a 
>confrontation" don't use loaded terms like "sour grapes."

    Well Clay your wrong, I used the term and that wasn't the intent.
    
    
    To oversimplify my position, try to correct the problem with out
    having to restrict or supervise. Of course drastic situations
    call for drastic measures.

    Please folks, let try to get this back on track and perhaps a little
    calmer.  Although I need to comment this note has taken on some
    interesting aspects and angles.
    
    From our vantage point, we were living with my inlaws, whom I love
    dearly and would literally do, and have done anything for us, from the
    time I was 7 months pregnant until he was 4 months old.  (remember he
    was born 8+/- weeks early, had major surgery at birth, hospitalized
    twice before we moved into our own new home).  Mother inlaw would
    literally do a "tee shirt check" each night, at bedtime.  This woman
    had this "thing" about babies being warm enough.  I think she had given
    me 6 crib sized blankets, and tried each night to put 4 of them on him,
    on top of the blanket sleeper, receiving blanket, and turning the heat
    up to 80! She made it clear that "she had raised 5 children to
    adulthood and had partially raised her first two granddaughters, and
    she knew everything, and I knew nothing"!
    
    Several occations she would take him from me, and ther was no way in
    God's green earth that she was going to give him back to me willingly. 
    What I had to do was start "making up" excuses such as it's time to
    nurse him, after all I had the milk and no one else could do that, and
    even started complaining that I was so "full" that it hurt. (it really
    didn't).  I remember several times retreating upstairs to our area and
    balling my eyes out, and asking my husband why was she doing this to
    us? (post partum depression, lack of privacy? yup probably).
    
    We moved, and Mother inlaw doesn't come to visit often, but we do make
    it a point to stop by their house frequently.   Honestly, he still
    seems to be treated a little more special than the other grandchildren.
    And I still love them dearly.
    
    Lyn

    Even if .77s note hadn't been intended as confrontational, it
    cerainly showed a lack of understanding that there could be more
    to this problem than first meets the eye, and was therefore somewhat
    insensitive.
    
    While I agree with you Clay that a discussion on the definition of
    "rights" is not of itself very useful, I did it to attempt to show
    that some of what we call "rights" are really loaded ways of describing
    "privileges" or "societal expectations".  
    
    For example ... some people would say that they have right to control 
    a child's associations, while a grandparent has the right to have an
    association with the grandchild.  I look at it differently.  I'd
    say that in general society expects a close relationship between
    grandchild and grandparent.  On the other hand, the parent has the
    RESPONSIBILITY to protect the child from what the parent feels might
    be a damaging relationship, even if it is a relationship that society
    in general believes should be good.  There are no RIGHTS involved here.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    	I was away at a meeting at another facility and therefore am just
    now getting back to this discussion.
    
    	My goodness, am I the only one in this notesfile who comes from or
    who has to deal with dysfunctional (yes that is the proper word)
    families?
    
	Regarding .77, I did not take offense, it was merely an attempt at
    suggesting some answers. I can tell you, however, with great certainty
    that this is *not* an issue of sour grapes. (in fact that comment was
    so far off base that it made me smile instead of be angry). Also, if I
    were not prepared for some sort of confrontation, I would not be
    entering my thoughts on this matter in this forum.
    
    	In the ride down to Mass. I cam up with this hypothesis:
    
    	Suppose Spencer's grandfather were Jeffery Dalhmer. (the guy who
    tortured and murdered 17 people). I think that we can all pretty much
    agree that Spencer would NEVER be allowed to spend time alone with that
    person. Let's say that Jeffery claimed that he had blood rights to  his
    grandson and petitioned the courts for visitation rights. You can bet
    that Marc and I would be fighting him in court to deny "rights" to his
    grandson as a method of protecting Spencer. We would probably get some
    sort of court order keeping Jeffery away from our son.
    
    	okay that's a very obvious case and the majority of us would say
    that denying a relationship with the grandparent is in the best
    interest of the child.
    
    	now, let's say that there were one or several of the following in a
    grandparent situation:
    
    	alcoholism
    	drug addiction
    	mental instability
    	violence
    	sexual abuse
    	physical abuse
    	child neglect
    	.
    	.
    	.
    
    	or any of the other hundreds of crimes that are committed against
    children.
    	
    
    	granted the above "crimes" are not as severe as murder, however,
    the *potential* for harm to the child exists in each of these cases.
    
    	Even if the grandparent(s) insist on a relationship with the
    grandchild because of blood relations are you willing to take the risk
    of injury and harm to your child? Does the mere fact that there is a
    blood line indicate that a relationsip *must* exist?
    
    	 And where does one draw the line? Perhaps the grandparents
    demonstrate behavior that is not to your liking: bigotry, sexual
    remarks, ownersip, are the grandparents entitled to a relationship with
    your child *just* because they are related?
    
    	Oh also, that line about not considering blood relatives to be part
    of my family, again sounds cruel but yup, that's the way it is. I have
    close friends that are more of a family to me than some blood relatives
    of mine are.
    
    	I think the old line is that you can choose your friends but you
    can't choose your relatives.
    
    
    			Wendy
    
    

I think that a relationship with particularly a grandparent, even given
all those things would not be unreasonable BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT it is
very much up to you, the parent, to define what that relationship should
be, whether it's a full contact ("traditional") grandparental one, or at
the other end of the spectrum, no physical contact ... exchange photograph 
one.  

You are responsible for the well being of your child and if you believe 
that physical contact with the grandparents would put your child in physical 
and psychological danger then it is your duty to avoid that exposure. I 
don't think that anyone here would argue that whatever the perceived "rights"
a grandparent might have, that your child's safety must come first.

I think that even if I went so far as to cut grandparents off from my
children, I would probably send the occasional photograph of them.

Stuart

    
    
    Since I stuck the proverbial comment "Grandparents Rights" in there
    that is getting so much controversy, I thought I'd try and clarify.
    
    I've been told that I was speaking from my own situation which is
    very different from Wendy's.
    
    When I speak of rights, I guess I do mean privleges.  Denial of
    privleges and granting of privleges are very touchy subjects.  When
    do you Grant? When do you Deny?  The parent is the person who is
    responsible for the upbringing of the child and should Grant/Deny 
    those privleges in most cases.  My intent is just to bring to
    your attention that in the legal arena this is becoming more 
    apparent.  
    
    For every case you would not want to grant these privleges/rights there
    are cases where you would.  I think that I would really have to think
    about it in the cases you have given.  I would have to admit that I
    would be afraid to leave my child with a mentally unstable or alcoholic
    grandparent.  In fact I wouldn't.  But I would allow them to know each
    other and have a supervised relationship, which you are doing.
    
    /Kathy
    

I think the key here is the potential for harm to the child.

No, Wendy, you aren't the only one who comes from a dysfunctional family,
but there are probably few of us here who will admit it.

I try to have my son have a good relationship with my father, as much as
it is possible.  On the other hand, my father sexually abused me, and I 
will *not* allow my son near him unless I am right there as well.  My mother
is pretty good, but I still decided against using her as our son's guardian
if we were to die.  She took this *very* hard.  I still feel I made the
right choice.  

We still visit and encourage a good relationship with my mother and her
mother.

On Shellie's side, her parents were abusive in many ways, and continue to be
so to their other grandchildren.  Therefore, we steer clear of them.  Shellie
has discontinued all contact with them, and therefore Evan does not see them,
either.  Evan *does* see Shellie's grandmother (and sister, and aunt, etc).

So, what we try to do is concentrate on building relationships with the "good"
grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins and protect our son (and ourselves)
from the others.  I believe that the average grandparent should have the
opportunity to spend time with and build a good relationship with their
grandchild.  I believe that privilege stops when the chance of harm to the
child is high.

        Carol