Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Boy, to sit and figure out these expenses was a real shocker--I
    had never actually looked at it all on paper!!  The following are
    the average expenses for my almost two year old son, and they would
    probably be much higher but he gets many of his clothes and toys
    from his grandparents (only grandbaby!!!:})
    
    Housing =  $210 month (1/3 of house payment but we would have this
                           expense anyway)
    Food    =   20-30 week (this is just things we buy for him like
                            snacks, Hi-C juices, etc.)
                            Formula for his first year was 15-20/week
    Health  =   11 week for insurance plan
                 8 month vitamins
                30 yr. prescriptions
    Toys    =  200 year between birthdays, Christmas, etc.
    Entmnt. =  100 year birthday party
                20 month for balloons, amusement park, swimming (most
                   places he is still free)
    Daycare =   80 week
    Clothing=   20-30 month for essentials (shoes, socks, etc. --Nana
                      buys 95% of his clothes)
    Diapers =   50 month 
    Life ins=   30 month (2 policies)
    US bonds=   10 month (bought in his name for future, car,
                   education,etc.)
    
    Wow!!  Who says 3 can live as cheaply as 2??
    
    Pam
    
    

    Well, we have 3 children, and will have a fourth in another couple of
    weeks. I realize our expenses are probably not typical, but we consider
    our kids (so do others) quite well fed, clothed, house, etc.  But we
    live *much* more cheaply than most.
    Our kids are boy, 5 yrs, 9 mos. old
                 girl, 3 yrs., 11 mos. old
                 boy, 2 yrs., 1 mon. old
    
    Housing: tough to divide out...Their two rooms are 1/3 of the house,
    and then they share "common areas". *BUT*, as previous reply indicated,
    we'd pay it all if they weren't here, so they cost us, in actuality, no
    more. If we'd had to build on to accomodate them, or buy a bigger house
    and therefore have a bigger payment, I'd include that, but they cost us
    nothing more in the way of housing.
    
    food: We spend $70 per week on food for our entire family, including
    laundry products, and paper goods. So, figure about half of that for
    the kids......$35
    
    health: outside of insurance, about $3-$6 a month for office visits
     and maybe $10 month for prescriptions. Figure maybe another $5-$10 a
    month for stuff like band-aids, tylenol, etc.
    
    toys: Ridiculously little, but that's our tastes. Kids get tons from
    relatives, so we spend maybe $15 per child at birthday time, and maybe
    $25 per child at Christmas, for $120 per year, or $10 a month.
    
    entertainment: almost nothing. We do the free stuff, and don't buy the
    goodies at places we go to. Tops would be $10 a month (okay, maybe
    $15-$20 month in summer, counting ice cream!)
    
    daycare: nothing for us. My wife stays home with the kids full time. We
    pay maybe $25 a month for babysitters. (Take the kids with us a lot, or
    trade babysitting time).
    
    clothing: We buy almost nothing from stores except underwear and shoes.
    We shop garage sales from spring till fall, and get given *tons* of
    both new and used clothing. Ours kids have more clothes than we can
    keep up with, and it is all reasonably new and in really good shape. We
    spend, likely, about $200-$250 a year on all of them togehter.
    
    We haven't gotten to the age, yet of intense outside activities,
    lessons, etc., so we don't have those expenses, but I see them as being
    in line with the rest of the way we spend.
    
    Oh, a couple more things...
    Added laundry: Yes, you do tons more laundry with kids! My wife does
    about 10-12 loads a week, counting sheets, towels, etc. We also wash
    all our own diapers. What does a load cost? I have no idea! Our water
    bill is about $20 a month, total. Probably 1/3 of that is laundry. We
    wash just about everything in cold water. Dry everything in the dryer.
    Electric bill is about $85 a month....maybe $20 of that for laundry?
    Soap...one 64 oz bottle of liquid deteg/week at approx $2 a bottle (we
    buy the cheap stuff). Total=$35-$40 a month?
    
    Disposable diapers: we use 'em for when we're out. Maybe $15 a month.
    (Will increase when baby is born, till #3 is out of diapers).
    
    Two children do not cost 2x as much as 1, and three do not cost a whole
    lot more than 2...much equipment, clothing, toys, etc., is shared. 
    
    Totals for us for 3 kids: (taking the highs and lows of each item)...
    $158-$181 per month, or $1896 - $2172 per year. 
    
    Most people will vary... :-)!
    
    --dave--

    We have a two year old this was hard to do. Even more shocking after I
    got it done.  This is done on a monthly bases
    
    Housing          191
    food             120
    Health            30  Ins. and colds
    toys              40  They get bored with toys very easy
    Enter.            30  We like the turtles
    Day care         500  that is for a home care sitter and all of his
   			  food and snacks
    clothing          50  they grow out of there sneakers quick and my son
                          has very wide and flat feet.
    misc.             80  diapers, wipes, toothbrush, shampoo, soap,
    			  lotions,
    
    that is about $1050.00 a month.  If you want to look at it this way
    that is a house payment.  
    
    And number two is on the way Hopefully on time in August.
    
    Della
    

Actually, I've found having kids saves money.  When we didn't have
kids, my wife worked and we spent everything the two of us made every
month.  Now, she stays home with the kids so our income has been
reduced to about 60% of what it was and we spend everything I make
every month.  A savings of 40%!!

>>>==>PStJTT

    Wow Dave, that is impressive budgeting!
    	Linda

    No one has asked yet, but I'm curious to know why the basenoter wants
    to know.  It reminds me of the general feeling about having children. 
    If we really knew what we were getting into would we do it?!!!!
                                                 
    Mary - who would do it again in a minute!

    Bare in mind, especially as far as infants are concerned, that noone has
    made much mention of the "capitol expenditures" sometimes necessary. 
    You know, crib, mattress, carseat(s) (the requireds) and swings,
    snuglis, walkers, swing set, sand box (the "extras").   These can
    add  up as well.
    
    Carol

    A lot of the cost of having a child or children is discretionary,
    depending on your lifestyle and what's important to you. 
    
    You can hold the initial expenses way down if you need to.   The
    only real essential is a car seat, and you can usually rent that
    from a local organization for less than the purchase price.   I
    know people who have made baby beds out of cardboard boxes with
    mattresses of folded blankets wrapped in a sheet.  You can use
    blankets or pillows to make a safe space on a twin mattress, or
    you can have the baby in bed with you until it's old enough for
    its own bed.  You can get by without a high chair by holding the
    baby in your lap for feeding.  You can get by without a potty seat
    or a playpen or a swing.
    
    All these things are nice, and they make it a lot easier for the
    parents and a lot safer for the baby.  I certainly wouldn't
    recommend that anybody who can afford playpens and cribs and such
    should do without them.  But if you don't have the money, it's
    possible to raise a baby well and safely without them.
    
    For us, expenses actually drop when the child reaches the
    post-diaper, post-baby-food age.  They gradually climb as the
    child is old enough for piano lessons (presently running around
    $12 for a half-hour lesson), athletic activities, socializing, and
    all the rest of it.  
    
    And if your child is really talented at something, the costs
    skyrocket.  Kat's ballet lessons run $400 for a 6- to 10-week
    term, but that's lessons 5 days out of 7.  Then there's shoes (toe
    shoes, jazz shoes, character shoes, regular ballet slippers) and
    leotards -- $400 a year, probably.  Music lessons, art lessons,
    sports equipment and programs, all run about the same amount for
    someone who's seriously involved.  There are often scholarships
    and such available to defray costs for someone truly talented and
    truly needy, but for the average among us, you'll have to decide
    how much you're willing to sacrifice.
    
    Not to mention the routine issues of whether you're going to buy
    designer jeans and Reeboks, or whatever's trendy 14 years from
    now.
    
    --bonnie

    Not to belittle this, but raising kids seems to take every spare dime
    you have, and you tend to give it to them lovingly!  And if we waited
    until we could "afford" kids, there wouldn't be ANY!
    
    Over the weekend, even though we're facing some severe financial
    difficulties, I still found the money to buy him a bottle of "bubbles",
    the kind you blow.  It was just so wonderful watching him have a good
    time.  We also found the time and money to go to Webster lake
    yesterday, family time is so important.
    
    Of course Murphy's Law says: sneaker wear out, and clothes get too small 
    when you can least afford them!
    
    Lyn

    RE: .6
    
    The reason I ask is two-fold.  But I must admit it is based on a
    'discussion' my husband and I had on the cost of raising children. 
    First, I'm curious because we want to have children and are trying to
    save and budget should we be blessed.  Second, we have a friend (male)
    who is being sued for child support by an ex-girlfriend.  The friend
    feels betrayed because he believes the child is a result of
    manipulation on the part of the ex.  My husband feels the same way -
    and can't seem to look beyond the betrayal and focus on the child. 
    
    Therefore, I'm curious about reasonable costs for child rearing to
    satisfy my own curiousity.  But also to point out to my husband that the
    costs are real, and support money doesn't necessarily buy the mother a
    new sportscar.  
    
    The main reason I didn't explain my motivations on the base note was
    because I wanted rational, honest estimates, and I thought these
    reasons may spur some emotional responses.

    I feel the same way...If you really, really understood how much
    it costs to have kids, the human raece would have become extinct!
    Besides, you can't put a dollar amount on a little one running
    down the driveway to meet you at the end of the day...or "I wuv
    you, Mummy" at bedtime...or "Dad, you're my best friend!"...or
    the pride you feel when someone says, "He's a nice kid"...or
    the nice clean way they smell after their bath....sorry to wax
    sentimental, but some things haven't got a dollar value.  My
    $.02.
    

    	My husband and I are having these very same financial discussions
    and ours will be born in September! The point made previously is well
    taken, if you wait until you are "financially set" then you will never
    have a child.

    	Whenever we get very concerned (a polite word for crazy) about our
    financial situation and whether or not we can actually afford this
    baby, we just remind ourselves that lots can be improvised on, budgets
    can be put in place, second-hand equipment works as well as new things,
    and that environment, care and attention are low cast but high reward.

    	We're not out to give this child everything material, we're out to
    take it on walks, to teach it how to play, to laugh and to have a good
    time. This does not mean that we won't buy what we can, because we
    certainly will strive to, however, on the days when both cars break
    down or the tax man comes knocking at our door, we'll just have to work
    with what we have.

    				Wendy

    
    The costs to raise a child very greatly from one situation to another.
    If you both work you can afford more materialistic items but usually
    sacrifice the childs best interest(MOM or DAD being home with child).
    
    My situation is I work during the day and go home to watch my two
    girls(3 and 5) so my wife can work at night. The money is available
    to support the expenses and the children are with a parent at all
    times(no daycare expenses).
    
    I'm not an advocate of Day care but it is needed in some situations(ie:
    Single parents).
    
    If people looked at the costs of daycare, I wonder if the expenses are
    worth it vs staying home. 
    
    

    Speaking as comod:  Gently, please, everybody. . . this is a
    sensitive issue.
    
    Speaking for myself . . . 
    
    I will simply point out that there are many reasons other than
    monetary gain for both parents working outside the home, and that
    in general most families make decisions on what is best for the
    entire family, both as a unit and as individuals.  Generally there
    will be some tradeoffs, so everyone has their needs and desires
    considered and accommodated but no one person dominates all
    decisions.  It's a delicate balancing act to meet the best
    interests of both parents and all the children all at the same
    time. . . 
    
    To deal with a strictly monetary example, my staying home with our
    youngest would mean that we couldn't afford to let our eldest
    continue to study dance, even though she has potentially
    professional-level ability.  Which child's "best interest" counts
    for more?  
    
    --bonnie

Jim/I were able to flex-hour the "first" year.  I am eternally grateful we
COULD and we DID ... however, it was not easy.  For "us", I believe Juli
benefited most from the arrangement, as it sure did NOT ENHANCE any
"family time" (for ALL of US to be together), nor did it ENHANCE any
"private time" for Jim/I.  We were not necessarily a FAMILY, but rather
we found ourselves being a "Mommy and baby" ... OR ... "Daddy and baby"!!!!

When Juli turned "1", a lot changed ... she was walking, active, independent
... and just plain becoming a "Little People" of her own ... and we ALL
THREE started to develop individual "needs", as well missing that 
very much needed family time AND private time.

Homecare did NOT work out for Juli (as a child) ... nor us (as parents).
All three of us are very happy with our current daycare arrangement ...
not because our dual income allows us to have more "materialistic" things!
-- in fact, quite the contrary when you get done paying daycare expenses!
-- but it allows ALL THREE OF US to build our individualism, fulfull our
individual needs ... AND STILL be a family, too.

I have yet to figure out WHY so many tug-of-war's occur over this
daycare vs. homecare vs. NO daycare/homecare issue!  I read an interesting
article in a Parenting magazine (I should have entered it here in
PARENTING!), but the bottom line was:  most stay-at-home Mommies attack
working-Mommies, while very few working-Mommies attack stay-at-home
Mommies!!! In fact, working Mommies were usually extremely supportive
of stay-at-home Mommies -- not because they envied them, but because
they didn't feel THREATENED by them  (they could be a stay-at-home
Mommie IF THEY WANTED TO!).  Working-Mommies were generally very happy
with their choices and lifestyles, they didn't have to DEFEND THEM!

For the ka-zillionth time! -- each parent is different, each child is
different, each daycare is different ....!!!!!  And if it works well
for you/your SO/your child ... then hip, hip, horray for EVERYONE!!!!!

Geeesssh!

Dottie

PS:  Jim/I are both working professionals (DUAL INCOME), we do not live 
     in a gorgeous home, let me see if I can find $5 in my wallet! (I
     would probably have $10 if I did NOT pay for daycare!) -- and we
     both drive old jaloopies!  So ... I guess "dual income" MUSTN'T be
     the reason Juli's in daycare!

    Let's see here, I came back to work full time when AJ was roughly 18
    months old.  I came back, as I keep saying, because our mortgage
    company would like me to!
    
    Now where does it go...
    
    One third goes to TAXES
    
    One Third goes to pay DAYCARE
    
    One Third pays for gas for my car alone, clothes and shoes for AJ, some
    clothes for me, lunch money for me at work, and a lot of food that can
    be prepared quickly since I don't have a lot of time for a gourmet meal
    after work.
    
    So tell me again, What did I REALLY come back to work for???!!!
    
    Oh yes, the privilege of talking to GROWNUPS..!!
    
    Lyn

My experience has been that I spend an amount proportional to our income.
Before Michelle was born and I was working full-time, I spent an
embarassingly large amount of money on her crib, room decorations, etc.
Only the best would do.  Before we were spending thousands of dollars on 
stereo equipment and cars, now I was spending it on her.

But then I was off for 6 months after her birth, all but 6 weeks of it unpaid.  
I bought almost nothing!  Of course I was also too busy to shop.  Sometimes
during that period I would look at her crib and think of how I could have
better spent that money; I would justify it by thinking it would last 'til
the end of time!

Now I'm back to work half-time, and I buy things now and again.  But
now I look at the second or third best, use coupons, or sometimes (egads!)
go without.  I also never used to shop at Target; now I'm there at least
once a week!

As to planning ahead for financial security before having kids, I can
empathize.  We saved a lot of money because I wanted the option of quitting
work for good if I wanted to, and being able to fall back on the savings
if needed.  The trouble with that logic is you hate to think about spending
*any* of your savings, no matter what it's earmarked for.  And it's pretty
hard to save up the amount of your yearly salary, multiplied by a few years
(or however long you're planning on staying home).  Even though we lived
pretty cheap during that 6 months and we have no debts except our mortgage
(which is modest), we were amazed at how much money we *did* spend.

Looking back, I'm glad we had saved a tidy sum in preparation, but most
of the financial planning (sometimes worrying) was unnecessary.  Just have
the kid(s)!!!!

Kyra