Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    Hi Terry - 
    
    Jason, 20 months, is also into this independent phase.  I suppose
    it's what people call the "terrible twos", but I prefer not to
    refer to it as that as sometimes such labels can be self-fulfilling!
    
    My way of handling the tantrums is to allow Jason to do as much
    as possible; barring things that are unsafe.  This strategy seems
    to avoid many of the power struggles altogether.  For example, at 
    breakfast, I allow him to pour his own cereal from the box and
    add the milk himself (from a small cup) and praise him for doing
    a good job.   Occasionally, I pay the price and he makes a mess
    but in all, he does real well doing things himself and it makes
    him feel real proud.
    
    Also, I try to refrain from asking him questions (do you want a banana?
    Do you want to pour your milk?) because he'll say "NO!" and then scream 
    at me for doing it!   He just doesn't seem to be ready for too many
    choices...
    
    Good luck, it can be very trying.   I've also noticed that this
    behaviour is at its absolute worst when he is hungry and/or tired.
    He'll start off dinner with a fit and then be fine afterwards...
    
    Carol

Ditto, Carol ...

I bought Brazelton's book "Parents and Toddlers" (or maybe it's
TODDLERS and Parents?!) ... anyway, it, too, says about the same thing.

When the kids enter "early" 2's, they realize decisions can exist, so they
make a decision (or so they think!)" ... eg. I want a drink ... then they're not
sure it's what they really wanted ... eg. I NO want a drink ... then they think
you TOOK their drink FROM them ... eg. my drink!  I want drink ... but then
they remember they really didn't think they wanted it in the first place! 
... eg. NO drink! ... and then YOU THINK "OK, let's see, you don't want YOUR
drink, but you don't want ME to HAVE YOUR drink ... sooooo, we'll just put 
YOUR drink over here for now ... and then if YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND, it's here 
... AND I did NOT take it or DRINK IT! ...".    (awwgh!)

Another thing Juli's clear about is OWNERSHIP ... "mine"!  (People warned me
that the "no" word would be frustrating ... well, the MINE word really bugs
the daylights out of ME!)  Try to put on her shoes ... "mine! my shoes!", as
she grabs them out of your hands -- so you have to find a way to reassure her
that YOU know they are HER shoes, while trying to get them onto HER FEET so
SHE can get to daycare and YOU can get to work!  (eg. here, Hon, you put the
right shoe on the right foot and I'll put the left shoe on the left foot ...
and keep talking ... see, while I'm blabbering like a blooming idiot, Juli's
trying to make sense of what I'm saying -- fearful she might miss something
that will benefit HER -- and I'm venting my frustration, while trying to
maintain my composure and SANITY!  Singing is also equally effective! -- Make
up the songs ... eg.  And the right shoe goes on the right foot, while the
left shoe goes on the left foot ... fa, la, la,la,la,la,la,la,la,laaaaa ...
and then we tie the right lace ... faaa, laaaa, la, la, laaaaa (the
fa-la-la's ALWAYS catch Juli's attention, she can't let one of those buggers 
slip by without joining in! ... and keep doing them all-the-way-to-the-car!)
WHEW! - she made daycare and you made work -- except now you've got fa-la-la's
stuck on your brain for the rest of the day!)

I agree with Carol ... it's finding a grey area.  A way of holding the reins
WITHOUT always pulling on them.  I try to understand the point Juli is trying to
get across (before it becomes a power play) and then try to "edge her" over
a bit and I try to "move over" a bit ... and try to avoid a full-blown, bloody
battle that both of us will lose.  Some battles have to be fought, but the
bulk of them are Juli's way of saying "I'm a little people now and I'm going
to tell you just what I want, how I want it, when I want ..." and if I can
read into her BEFORE she gets mad and adamant, I can usually maintain more
control (and, thus, the end result).

But ... then there's those few battles that all us parents HAVE to fight --
so just pick the battles you KNOW you HAVE to WIN!  Pull on the reins when you
know you have to HANG ON to this one ... and then just let the rest slide by.

Dottie

PS:  When the ground warms up more, I just KNOW Juli will be going to daycare
     "carrying" her sneakers more often than not!

PSS: Remember:  Motherhood is NOT for whimps!

    It may comfort you to know that there are LOTS of us going through the
    exact same thing now.  Stephanie will be 2 in June and we've been
    battling her incredible will for a few months now.  Her favorite trick
    is to insist the other parent do it.  Just as I'm about to bring the
    wash cloth to her face to clean up after a meal I hear "Daddy do it!".
    If Daddy brings the wash cloth, it's "Mommy do it!".  They are learning
    that they do have choices and are learning how to exert their power.
    
    I know how you feel, Dottie.  There are some days that I'm exhausted
    when I GET to work!  Dealing with a 2 year old always seems like a
    battle of the wits!  Hang in there!
    
    					Mair
    

.3 shook out some cobwebs in my memory bank ...

Another thing Jim/I observed was that Juli has an incredible memory.  Jim/I
tend to program ourselves and fall into routines, so consequently we end up
following patterns ... like I cook dinner, Jim gets Juli settled.  I clean
the kitchen, Jim bathes Juli.  I dry/dress Juli, Jim cleans up bathroom ... 
and then reads/plays with her and pops her into the crib.

Well ... if something disrupts this "pattern" (eg. JIM attempts to dry/dress
her ... OR ... I attempt the bath ritual), all havoc breaks loose!!!
Juli remembers that "Daddy do ... not Mommy!" ... or vice versa.  She even
remembers the schedule of events! -- eg. eat vitamin BEFORE brushing teeth
... and she gets so upset and adamant when things don't go as expected ...
and I get so frustrated because I don't always know JUST-HOW Daddy usually
does things!

Maybe as they get older and can be "clearer" about what's wrong it will be
easier ... as I believe half of Juli's "upsets" are caused because we can't
figure out just what's wrong!
 -- and could be so easily corrected if ONLY
WE KNEW!  (And she gets soooo miffed ... like I'm tormenting and teasing
her by playing dumb and stupid and then deliberately doing the OPPOSITE of
what she thinks she wants!)

Awwwghh!

Dottie

PS:  And it really blows my mind when daycare says "Juli is so easy-going,
     fun-loving ..." ... there MUST be two different kids both named Juli
     at daycare ... as this is NOT the kid "I" LIVE WITH!

    re: .0
    
    Wait a minute.  Have you been spying on David?
    
    He's 19 months also and is doing the exact same things.  His
    favorite tantrum is to throw the food on the floor if I serve him
    something he doesn't happen to feel like eating . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    You all could be writing about Andrew.  He's now 21 months.  He was
    starting to get real pushy around 18 mos., but NOW at 21 mos. he can be
    a horror!  Everything is NO - even when he means yes ("what do you mean 
    you CAN'T READ MY MIND!!?".  He won't take naps for us on weekends
    (he'll scream bloody murder for an hour or so; we can hear him rocking
    his crib, jumping up and down, occasionally cuts his lips on the side
    of the crib rail (because he's such a wreck while he's jumping up and down)
    then he's so upset he's forgotten how to regain control (this one is lots 
    of fun!).  It can really be the pits.  But you know what I found to be
    really odd?  It was that the REALLY NASTY tantrums just started up this
    past weekend.  Like he took a nasty pill and it hasn't worn off yet.
    BTW, he naps like an angel at daycare.  
    
    We're pretty good at setting limits with him, he knows most of the
    rules and he knows when he's crossed the line, but sometimes he just 
    doesn't care.  I know he knows he's crossed the line because we're
    really pretty consistent with him - plus the look they give you when
    they've gone too far gives them away!
    
    I've just discovered, as someone earlier mentioned, you can't give them
    too many choices at this stage.  It boggles their minds I think - which 
    makes the situation even worse!!  
    
    Where we're at now is trying to find a way to let him be his independent 
    self, without him forgeting who the parents are.
    
    To the base noter:  I don't know which is worse a kid that likes to
    stay in all the time or one that WON'T come in!  Andrew has us out all
    weekend from 9:00 to 5:30pm (only lets us in to use the bathroom, get
    lunch - which we had to eat outside - and to change his diaper - which
    of course he strongly disapproved of!).
    
    Please let this be a passing stage!
    
    Nancy

    
    For what it's worth, there are a couple of topics dealing with
    this charming :-) stage in PARENTING_V2...in particular, 1173,
    2037, 2235.
    
    Carol

    It wasn't that long ago that I was agreeing with what you're all
    writing here.  With Jason who's always been very independent, the twos
    were incredible.  I am happy to report though, that at 3+ a little,
    he's turned out to be QUITE the charmer, does an awful lot to take care
    of himself, and has returned to his previous (pre-2) pleasant self.  We
    still get the MINE or ME DO IT!  But there's hardly ever a battle, and
    we've been having a lot of fun this spring now that he's so
    independent.
    
    Hang in there -- this too shall pass!!
    
    patty
    

    And, gosh, I thought I was the only one who arrived at work each
    morning frazzled, frizzled, and out of breath.  I made the comment
    this morning to a coworker that by the time I get Josh (23 months)
    up (the battle begins here), dressed, fed, washed, in the car, and
    to daycare I am ready to go back to bed and sleep the rest of the
    day.  You know what confuses me?--These tantrums and moods seem
    transient and unpredictable.  We went on vacation for 5 days and
    Josh was a perfect angel the entire trip, yet two days after we
    come home he became that monster baby that sometimes appears without
    rhyme or reason.  Seems like there is no middle ground--he is either
    following all the rules, being sharing, giving, pleasant and wonderful
    or he is a screaming, whining monster.  Luckily, the good days outway
    the bad 5 to 1 but on THOSE days!.....This morning began with a
    battle over shoes, "Blue ones, mamma!"  me:"O.K. Josh, we'll put
    on the blue shoes."  Josh:"No, brown ones!!"  So then I tried to
    get the brown ones on him--NO WAY!!  Then it was Josh:"NOOOOOO
    SHOES!!!!!!!!"  Well, Josh went to daycare in the blue ones with
    tears streaming down his face and mad as h*ll at his mama!  That
    was only one of the battles this morning--we still had breakfast
    to eat, clothes to get on, hair to brush, face to wash, etc.
    I arrived at work dragging to say the least.  Please, let it be
    the angel baby that I pick up this afternoon!!!  Is there such a
    thing as manic depressive babies???!!!!;-)  Just kiddin'
    
    Pam

    The one thing that I've noticed that helps to curb the morning battles
    is to make sure that Andrew gets PLENTY of sleep.  I mean, if he goes
    to bed at 7:30pm and we get him up at 6:00ish am - he's relatively
    cooperative - BUT, if he goes to bed at 8:00pm and has to get up at
    6:00am, that's enough to rock his boat and make for a fitful morning.
    So we TRY to make sure he gets 10 1/2 to 11 hours sleep a night.  He's
    not a good napper for us, so he makes it up with his night time sleep.
    
    Yep, I'm familiar with the old mood swings and how they make you feel
    that your responsible for all that wrong in the world.  But again, I've
    noticed that this is amplified when he's tired.
    
    
      It's nice to know that we're "not the only ones" isn't it?
    
    Nancy