Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Cheryl,
    That would be a scary situation, indeed! 
    Let me give you our perspective....we have a *very* mild mannered dog,
    who bascially ignores the kids, although sometimes does like to romp
    with them outdoors. But our 2 yr. old, Daniel, just *adores* her (and
    most any animal, for that matter) and likes to "play" with her. The
    problem is, his playing can become overly rough, and he sometimes hurts
    her. Her usual reaction is to just get up and leave, although Daniel
    will usually follow. If he really hurts her, she growls, and has
    snapped, which Dan thinks is hysterically funny. Unfortunately. We keep
    telling him, "Don't tease her! She'll hurt you!". But so far she hasn't
    really hurt him. We find ourselves wishing sometimes she'd give him a
    little nip (but, of course, not on the face!), just so he'd take her
    seriously.
    
    I suspect that that is what happened to your David. He probably got a
    bit rough, even is it was accidently. He may have stepped on her or
    otherwise surprised her (our dog snapped quite hard at Josh once, when
    he stepped on her leg while she was sleeping....he's a big boy, and
    besides waking her up, it must've hurt a *lot*!). I would talk to David
    about it. Does he act scared? If not, I'd just tell him that he
    probably hurt the dog (stress that you realize it was probably not
    intentional), and that's why he got bitten. Tell him to play gently
    with the dog, and to be careful not to startle her or step on her. If
    he knows what it was he did that caused the dog to bite, talk about it
    specifically.
    
    Since the dog never did this before, I wouldn't go asking the neighbor
    to lock the dog up, or be overly monitoring of the dog. Sounds like one
    of those things that just happen, and will probably (hopefully) not
    happen again.
    
    --dave--

    We have a dog (Molly) well Molly is an older dog (10yrs) so when Katie
    came along, she didn't like that at all.  She is my husband's dog, at
    least that's how she feels..  Katie absolutly loves Molly and every
    other dog she runs into.   Okay get to the point...Molly has growled at
    Katie when Katie does anything to Molly - look, touch or kiss.  Molly 
    would neverbite anyone, she's just a brat.  Katie is now 3.5 and Molly
    now allows Katie to touch her and kiss her, sometimes she just slightly
    growls.  
    
    If the neighbor said there was unintentional roughness that would
    explain why a dog would do that.  Ever time Molly growls at Katie we
    tell Katie to pet Molly on the dogs terms, if she growls keep away.  By
    reinforcing that statement, Katie (I believe) understands that.  If
    Molly is being totally unreasonable about why she's is growling we
    tell Molly to mellow out.
    
    I hope this helps the author of both .2 and .1.  Be careful of creating
    (unintentially) a fear of dogs.  My niece is just 3 and has a real fear
    of dogs for no reason, nothing caused it (other than maybe her mom's
    dislike of dogs).
    

    	
    	My daughter was also bit in the face about a month ago. She is 
    2 1/2 yrs. My sitter lives next door and she has two dogs. She usually
    sits at my house. She has three kids also so once in she needs to go
    home and get somthing, whatever. She told me when she first moved in
    that her dog has bit or as she put it "nipped" her daughter twice.
    I asked her if her daughter, who is 7, gave the dog a reason to bite.
    She said no that the dog did it out of the blue. Now I have had many
    dogs and cats horses hampsters you get the picture right? If I had an
    animal the nipped my kids for no reason I would put the dog to sleep.
    Now don't jump down my neck I am quite an animal lover BUT I would
    not take the chance of that dog biting someone else down the road.
    Anyway my sitter had to run next door to start up her dishwasher and
    clean up the kitchen and the kids were all playing outside together so
    she asked if Deanna (my girl) could walk over with her. So I said 
    sure just make sure your dog is tied up. She said he is always either
    on his chain or put in a locked in a room. Well her husband had stopped
    home for a second to get somthing that he needed. He went into the room
    where the dog was. The dog pushed by her husband and bit Deanna right
    in the face! She was cut just under the eye (i'm talkin 1/4 inch!) and 
    scratched her forhead just above the eye and punctured inside and out
    of her nose. All I could picture was the dogs jaws open on her whole
    head. I tell you I wanted to rip that dogs teeth out with a pair of
    pliers!! If I didn't have to rush Deanna to the docs I would have!
    The doc put tape on under her eye and washed everything else out with
    peroxide. Then put her on antibiotics for 10 days. I told the sitter
    that I wanted the dog put to sleep before I got home. She agreed but 
    was told that she can not do anything with the dog for 10 days!
    I was really upset. She put the dog over to her fathers house for the
    10 days and he was supposed to bring it to the vets to put it down.
    HE took it to a shelter and I don't know what happed to it. I don't 
    even know if he told them it bites! She won't tell me what shelter it
    went to! I suspect that she had the two weeks to think about it and 
    did not want to put it to sleep. It was a two year old dalmation so 
    I doubt it would be put to sleep unless they knew it bites. How can you 
    place a dog that bites?? I work nights and she came over to
    my house when my husband was home and was sighing about how she misses
    her buddy! And I was told by my doctor the dog bits or any scars to the
    face will never go away!!!!!
    Now every time I look at my little one and see the scar I get furious!
    As you can probably tell I still am.
    As far as I can tell she has no fear of dogs. I go over my moms and she
    has no trouble with her dog. She won't let it get close to her face for
    kisses but she will still pat it. I tried not to make anything of it
    tho my heart stops every time she wants to pat someones dog.
    One thing I thought was strange was that she never mentioned it.
    Usually when she gets a scratch or someother boo-boo she goes on and on
    about it. With the bite she never did. 
                           
    Well now that I am upset again I think it is time to end this.
    
    Good luck and I hope thing turn out well for you.
    Good luck 

    Did you get the details of what happened from the neighbor?  So
    many things could have happened besides malice on the dog's part.
    
    It's possible that the dog has an illness or injury that hadn't
    been noticed until now.  If the child bumped the sore spot, the
    dog might have snapped when he ordinarily wouldn't have.  Our
    normally mild-mannered cat once bit me hard on the hand while I
    was combing him when I stuck the teeth of the comb in an infected
    squirrel bite on his leg.  He's a very thick-furred cat and none
    of us had noticed the wound until then.  So cat and I both went to
    our respective doctors' offices for antibiotics . . .
    
    Also, the dog we had when I was a teenager once bit me badly
    totally by accident.  We were chasing each other around the yard,
    and I went one way at high speed and he didn't see me change
    direction.  He ran into my leg with his mouth open, and in trying
    to stop, made his teeth rip into my thigh.  Ouch.  Your son might
    have fallen just as the dog snapped, or something like that. 
    
    --bonnie

    re .3
    
    I think the reason that a vet would want to wait the 10 days before
    putting the animal to sleep is to benefit the victim...its to be sure
    that the dog doesn't have rabies.  The only way to tell ( i think) is
    to watch the dog, because treatment in people has to start before it
    would show up on a test.

    Thanks for the replies.  Bonnie, my thoughts have been along the lines
    of yours - I think it's likely that it was an accident, that the dog
    only meant to snap, but David's face was in the wrong place.  My
    neighbor was in the next room, so she didn't see what happened, and
    David's not quite sure either, but what I do know is that both the kids
    were kissing the dog (I think that explains why the bite was on David's
    face).  I think it's very likely that they unintentionally did something
    to hurt the dog (poked her in the eye, maybe??), though playing a sort
    of 20 questions with David has given me no clues as to what they did to
    hurt the dog.  I have a long list of things that he says they *didn't*
    do, though. :)

    But what worries me is that some combination of circumstances caused this
    accident, and how can we keep that combination from happening again?  If
    we had a dog of our own, I think David would have a good understanding of
    how to treat dogs by now.  But he has relatively limited contact with
    dogs, and I don't think just talking to him is enough to teach him
    how to play safely with dogs - he needs actual experience, and somebody
    pointing out to him when he's doing something that the dog doesn't like.
    Since I'm not around when he's playing with my neighbor's dog, I think
    that she needs to be giving him this kind of guidance, or else not let
    him play with the dog at all.  It's also very common for the 2 kids to
    get extra wild when they're playing together - things sort of escalate -
    so even if David was extremely good with animals, he might still not be
    reliably good when he was additionally interacting with his friend.

    Cheryl,
    Makes good sense to supervise the play with the dog to teach them the
    right way to play with an animal. And it does seem that if your
    neighbor can't, then maybe the dog needs to go in another room, at
    least till the kids are older and better able to understand the
    quantitative concepts of how gently to pet, etc.
    
    Re...fear of dogs. It needn't be permanent (I don't believe). Our
    daughter, Carrie, was attacked by a dog when she was just over 3. It
    was my sister's dog, known to hate and bite kids, and she got a little
    lax about watching it. Carrie wasn't doing anything other than standing
    in front of me, but Josh made a loud noise and quick movement on the
    other side of the room and the dog lunged at Carrie's face and neck. I
    can't believe how quickly I leaped onto that dog, and pinned it down
    with my knees on its neck and chest! Carrie was not hurt, but was
    scared out of her little mind! It took forever to calm her down. Well,
    for weeks after that, even a picture of a dog could evoke tears and
    trembling. Except for our own dog...she never generalized the fear to
    her, for some obscure reason. We worked very diligently to desensitize
    her to dogs. We exposed her to lots of pictures, first, with softly
    spoken gentle descriptions. Then worked with the sound of dogs barking
    and pictures. We did a lot of holding her outdoors, cause if she even
    caught a glimpse of a dog a hundred yards away, she'd panic. We
    gradually accustomed her (while holding her) to moving closer and closer
    to dogs (making sure we knew the dog and how it would react). Then we
    would pet the dog while holding her, then encourage her to do it. It
    took probably 3 months total, of very diligent work on our part, but
    she is, essentially, completely free of dog fear. Only exception is
    that she is still leary of the dog that attacked her....yes, my sister
    still has him :-(...but we don't allow her near the dog, or the dog near
    her. Other than that she is good with them. We did stress heavily the
    bit about not approaching strange dogs, not touching *any* dog unless
    it was our dog, or unless you asked and received permission of the
    owner. She understands. We didn't do this in a scary way, just very
    matter of fact.
    We would have though Carrie would be scared of dogs her whole life, but
    I believe we really have cured her of it. Time will still tell, I
    suppose.
    
    --dave--

    Dave and .2 (was it Karen?  sorry, I forgot!) - your reassuring words are
    helpful.  David appears to have no fear based on what happened yesterday.
    He talks very calmly about what happened.  He hasn't been back to see the
    dog yet, though.  The way I'm handling it is by talking about how the
    dog made a mistake (he understands very well the difference between
    naughty, silly, and a mistake - he's done many things in each of these
    categories himself!) and I've also told him I think he shouldn't kiss
    the dog any more.  (I'm a little uncertain about this last part, but I
    do think his face wouldn't have been near the dog's teeth if they hadn't
    been doing the kissing stuff.)  I plan to also tell my neighbor that I
    think the kissing game seems too dangerous to me right now (until David
    gets a little older), and that she should discourage David from doing it.
    Just another silly "Mom" rule. :)  I also plan to go over to visit later
    this week, so that I can be right there for moral support, if necessary,
    when David next encounters the dog.  I think that my biggest problem may
    be to make myself relax when he's around dogs, so that he doesn't pick up
    anxiety from me.  (Someone else mentioned this earlier.)  Fortunately, I
    have a lot of good past experiences with dogs that should easily outbalance
    this one bad one.

    .3, your note really helped me put David's experience in perspective, and
    I thank you for writing about an obviously emotional situation.  The doctor
    told me that David shouldn't have a scar (even if he does, it'll be tiny -
    the wound is quite small).  I hope that you can find a way to dissipate
    all that anger that you feel towards your neighbor - letting it burble
    around inside you is very hard on you.  (I may have misinterpreted - maybe
    you don't feel angry at her?  That's what came across to me, anyway.)

							cheryl

Reading Dave's note made me smile.  Our son used to be terrified of a 
neighbor's dog.  Even seeing "Bear" (aptly named, from a size standpoint) 
across the street would cause him to come wailing into the house.  (We have no 
idea where the fear came from -- Bear certainly never attacked him, and never 
even barked at him at close range, to our knowledge).

Well, on their last few vacations, our neighbors have hired our kids to take 
care of Bear.  We accompanied them on sometimes, because it was after dark.  
Well, here was Gary, with Bear on a very short chain, pulling Bear along.  I 
asked Gary if he remembers being afraid of Bear.  Gary looked at me like I was 
crazy for even thinking that he would be afraid of such a docile animal.

Clay

    I had an experience when I was about 10/11ish I guess.  I went to go
    pet a neighbors german shepherd one day.  This dog was always very
    friendly never showed any signs of bad temperment.  I was playing with
    one of my mother's old purses that day, went to go pet the dog, and the
    dog bit me (didn't break skin, but it was startling).  After reveiwing
    the situation, I realized that the dog probably thought I was going to
    hit it (for some reason) with the purse.   
    
    I was older and should have known better, but ... lessons you learn.
    
    Karen

    I was the victim of several dog bites on my forehead as a child.  If
    there's one lesson I learned, and am strictly enforcing it with AJ is
    to NEVER put you face in front of a dog's mouth!  At least twice my
    bites came from hugging the dog, as kids frequently do. 
    
    AJ is being taught never touch a strange dog, never put your face near
    his face, and Always ask permission to go near a dog, we also teach him
    to extend his hand first-palm upward, and let the dog smell his hand to
    assure the dog he means no harm.  (I remember some dog expert
    explaining this to me as a child)
    
    Just as reasurance, almost all the scars, which required stitches have
    left no noticable scars.  As I think I mentioned somewhere else, Pure
    cocoa butter, bought in tube like stick deodorant comes is excellent
    for making scars less noticable.
    
    After reading the replies I'd tend to think it was an accident, and
    perhaps his face was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But
    isn't it just like kids though, he's not the one traumatized by this
    whole thing, you are!
    
    So this is why mothers go grey!
    Lyn
    

    I believe the proper way to handle this is to find out everything -
    yes, you did question David, but have you thought that something might
    also be bothering the dog (like illness, or injury, or new disability
    that might cause the incident to recur)?  I think that the dog should 
    have a thorough checkup, and yes, supervision of dog/boy play for awhile 
    is in order.  
    
    Hope both child and dog get back together and enjoy each others'
    company.
    
    
    -m
    

    	
    re.8 Cheryl,
    
    	I hope that is also the case for Deanna, in that the scar will
    fade away. Now it still red and raised up but the ones on her nose are
    going away. You are right that Im angry but I am more mad at myself for
    letting her go over there knowing that the risk was there. She did 
    assure me that the dog would be tied up or out of the way. I think if
    I had just said no to De and made her stay with me than it would not
    have happened. We are next door nieghbors and probably will be for
    awile. The dog is gone now but I am not ready to be buddy buddy with
    her just yet. I have not seen her since the incident(mostly because I
    work nights) so we have not talked. She is upset about getting rid of 
    the dog even though she told me she was trying to find a home for it
    before it bit Deanna. I dont know maybe time will tell. 
    
    
    
    Sounds like you are on the right track with your son and I'm sure 
    everything will be fine in the future...8*)
    
    Robin

    We had two dog bite incidents as my children were growing up.
    My 18 year old son was bitten on the eye brow by my sister in law's
    dog who had just had a litter of pups. Peter was 2 or 3 and he got too
    close to the puppies and the mother bit him. He still has a slight
    scar on his eye brow but no fear of dogs.
    
    My youngest daughter Jessica, had a much more scarey experience.
    She got out of the car and ran back to see some adult friends 
    after they had let out a dog that they normally kept chained up
    when children were around. It bit her badly on the buttock, and
    left a scar that she carries to this day. (I also found tooth marks
    on her vulva tho the skin was not broken! Scared the *&^%^%$$ out of
    me!) The dog was subsequently destroyed. (She was also between
    two and three at the time.)
    
    She also has and had no ongoing fear of dogs.
    
    Bonnie

    Another thing to check, Cheryl -- is the dog pregnant?  Pregnant
    dogs get VERY crabby, and if so, she should be separated from the
    kids until after the puppies are gone.
    
    --bonnie

    The thing I have taught my Carrie and Lolita, and attempt to teach 
    to other kids who visit is to never put your face in the face of 
    another animal. This includes me.  
    
    The language the dog speaks interprets "in your face" behavior as a
    direct threat to its dominance, and will react in classic dog/wolf
    fashion to reestablish dominance.
    
    In our case, my dog is partially blind, and getting in her face 
    also frightens her, as she sees only light and shadow, and the shadow
    blocks enough light so she can't tell what is coming at her.  She will
    generally try to get away, but if she is cornered she will get very
    defensive.  
    
    The only times we have had any problems has been with OPK's who haven't
    been around pets enough to understand them.  In the case of these kids,
    Iris is generally happy to go outside and avoid them like the plague.
    
    I would definitely see to it that the play around the dog is supervised
    more closely, and reinforce the fact that your child should never get
    into a dog's cats or other pets, (and in my case my) face with him. 
    Teach him to love, and respect pets and hos to read their language, and
    with any luck he won't be bitten again.
    
    Meg     

    
    I was just wondering what the owner of the dog thinks, or plans to do. 
    I know that if my dog bit someone elses child, I would feel so
    responsible, guilty, etc., that I would be worried about having a child
    around my dog again.  LIke a previous reply said, you can't be sure
    those circumstances won't be recreated and it might happen again.  
    I think I would find it hard to face the parents.   Just wondering.
    
    

    Here is the end of the story (I hope!).  David's injuries are almost
    invisible now, and I think his grandmother will have to look hard to
    see any sign of the bite mark when she sees him next week (thank goodness).
    My neighbor does feel very guilty.  In retrospect, she probably was not
    really feeling good enough that day to be keeping up with the kids (she's
    been having some problems with her pregnancy - Bonnie, the dog's not
    pregnant, but my neighbor is!).  She did hear the kids goofing around
    from the next room and thought she should go in and break it up, but
    before she got there, David had already been bitten.  I am being extra
    careful now to make sure she's really, really feeling up to supervising
    the kids before I take David over to play.

    I took both kids over for a visit a couple of days after David got bitten.
    David was completely nonchalant in his attitude toward the dog, and the
    dog seemed to be acting completely normally - friendly towards the kids,
    and quite tolerant.  David has been over to play one or two more times
    since then, with no problems.  I have spent some time talking about
    keeping his face away from dogs' faces, and he seems to accept that idea
    (though we haven't had the chance to reinforce it with actual experience
    yet).  My neighbor is very conscientious, and has been much more careful
    about supervising the kids' playing around the dog.

    I was even pleasantly surprised to get the emergency room bill and see
    that it was under $100!  I didn't think that was possible. :)

							cheryl