Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I believe the rules say two weeks prior to your due date.  If your
    doctor has set the due date as June 12, I don't see how they can
    refuse to let you leave on May 28th or whatever 2 weeks before June
    12 is.  You won't get 14 days, but I think you are entitled to the
    9.
    	Linda

    I agree.  Just because your C is planned, should make no difference as
    to what you are entitled to.  In fact, if a woman gets two weeks off
    before the baby is due, and the baby is born a week later than the
    expected date, doesn't she still get 6 weeks AFTER the arrival for
    recuperation time?  My last child was a planned C, and my doctor wrote
    some medical reasons (all legit) and there was no problem.  I don't
    agree that anyone should have to work up until they're due (unless by
    choice).  
    
    Also,  who can predict whether-or-not you may go into labor on your own
    BEFORE the due date.  The last thing you need is to have your water
    break at work!
    
    Keep in mind that medical reasons may surface in plenty of time for
    your doctor to write DEC a new letter!  For instance, just a bit over
    two weeks before my scheduled C I developed a persistent pain on my
    right side that became so severe I had to be placed on Tylenol 3
    tablets.  This condition, called Round Ligament Syndrome, could happen
    to anyone, couldn't it?...
    
    Speaking of due dates, at my first OB visit, the doc said I was due on
    July 29th.  Then, based on a couple of beta bloodtests (that are
    extremely accurate for detecting HCG and determining how far along you
    are), and a few early sonograms, the date was adjusted to July 23rd. 
    Now I know that it's not a big deal, but I would like my doctor to send
    John Hancock a new letter reflecting the adjusted date for the same
    reason that you're writing this note -- I feel I'm entitled to be off the
    two weeks prior to my due date!  When I asked my doctor about sending
    the adjustment letter, his reply was "Oh, you'd probably just be bored
    if you were home for the two weeks."
    
    How can I get him to update the insurance company?
    
    Dale

Just so I'm clear, do you mean that you will be forced to work, or
that you can take some time off, but you will not be paid under
the disability plan?  

What is your source of information?  Your manager?  Personnel?

Clay
    
    

    Clay-
    
    I actually submitted the paperwork to Benefits, met with the Health
    Services rep at my site, and was denied the leave by the "medical
    consultant" (physician) at my site. As far as being allowed to take the
    time off, I would be allowed to use my vacation time if I wanted to do
    so. But as I mentioned in my base note, I don't think it's fair that I
    am treated differently from a woman due the same day but not planning a
    C-section who can leave a week earlier (not to mention my concern about
    going into labor at work).
    
    Of course, anything can change medically in the next six weeks. But the
    aggrevation from this and an even worse situation I'm in with this
    company (I'm being layed off as of June 28 with my whole organization)
    isn't doing me or the baby any good. But that's a different story...
    
    Nancy-

    I find it amazing that American Digital Employees have such a short
    maternity leave to begin with. Here, the arrangement is;
    expectant mother will choose the date she wishes to start her leave. 
    This can be as late as the due date or earlier. I was told that the
    best is to put down the due date, that way if there are difficulties,
    you can take short-term disability before the date, and if the baby
    comes early then the maternity leave starts then. We are given 17 weeks
    of unemployment topped off to 95% of our salary by digital, and an
    additional optional 10 weeks of just unemployment (up to a maximum 
    amount). There is also an optional additional 26 weeks without pay.
    
    Before the screaming starts down there, I just want to note that these
    terms are because of federal or provincial legislation, and not because
    Digital of Canada is more generous than the mother corp. 
    
    In the case of a planned C-section, I would expect that this would be
    considered the due date, and the same terms and conditions apply --
    i.e. work as close to the due date as you can to save the m-leave, but
    if you have to leave early, you can with a doctor's note, putting you
    on short-term disability until the baby's born.
    
    Monica
    

    Nancy-
    
    I am in the same situation as you are, I am scheduled for my third
    Ceasarian on July 18th.  (Which by the way is exactly my due date to
    the day.)  I also checked with human resources regarding the benefits I
    was entitled to.  I was informed that I would receive two weeks prior
    to my due date...until I mentioned that I was a planned Ceasarian.  At
    which time I was informed that women having Ceasarian were not entitled
    to the two weeks prior.  When I pursued further, I was told that
    because C-sections stay out 8 weeks,  and natural births only get 6
    weeks.  If I feel well I will probably work up to my due date anyway, I
    did with my second child.  However, my first child was due August 31st,
    confirmed by Ultra-Sound, I took two weeks off before he was due, and
    he wasn't born until September 12th.  I was home a month before he was
    born!!  My point is this...the reason that women are given two weeks of
    disability prior to the birth of a child is not because they are only
    going to get 6 weeks of Disability after the child is born!  The reason
    they are given the two weeks is to protect the company from liability
    in the event of an emergency, and to protect the mother and child since
    so much can happen two-three weeks prior to a due date, regardless of
    whether you are planned for a C-section.  On behalf of the company, I
    will also tell you that six years ago when I had my second C-section
    the standard procedure was to take the child at 38 weeks to circumvent
    the two week danger period that faces all expectant mothers between
    week 38 and 40.  Today most physicians attempt to not schedule a
    C-section date, but rather try to get the mother to go right up to the
    due date if they feel there is no risk of complication.  I think what
    we have here is a case where Digital has not caught up to the changes
    in Medical procedures over the past 6 years.  I feel if you pursue this
    further in the ranks of human resources, you may see that this policy
    is open to some interpretation and possible change.
    
    Carol Kinney

    Are you in Massachusetts ? The law in that state is that a woman must
    be allowed eight weeks for maternity leave (she does not have to be
    paid) and still return to the same or substantially similiar job.
    Digital choses to break it out by 2/6 for vaginal births. 

    First let me offer my support both to the basenoter and also .6 for
    your situations.  Fortunate (or was it unfortunate?) for me I was sent
    to bedrest at almost 2 months prior to my duedate with AJ, I was having
    extreme back spasms and the doctor wanted to try complete bedrest
    before drugs, plus I was starting to show signs of eclampsia with an
    elevated blood pressure and swelling.  Of course this happened 2 weeks
    before the Christmas holiday, so my poor hubby and mother inlaw had to
    finish our shopping both for the baby and Christmas.
    
    I've been thinking about this a lot today, and as objectively as
    possible would like to pose this scenario:  If you were scheduling to
    have surgery, say to remove you appendix, or gall bladder or something
    serious, but something that required no pre operative testing or prep,
    would you take two weeks off before that surgery?  My guess is probably
    not.  Now on the realistic side of you definitely ARE pregnant, and I
    agree that seems to affect every system in your body, you get tired
    easily, and yes there is the danger of preterm labor, or your water
    breaking at work, but is it a REAL possibility?  
    
    I'd say that if your doctor agrees that you working up to the day
    before your Csection might start your labor, then he ought to put that
    into a note to Human Services.  On the basis of a doctors note they
    would seem to have no choice but to  allow you to go out on STD.  You
    also mentioned that your group is being given "pink slips" anyway near
    your due date, if you think this may be part of the decision making
    process then bring it up as and EEO issue.
    
    I just want to mention that in this "fine?" Commonwealth in which we
    live, the Nurses at UMass Medical Center (a state owned medical school
    with a teaching hospital, for those of you out of state) are given 6
    weeks only, that's it, now we're talking women who are on their feet,
    moving quickly most of the time, and lifting and moving heavy patients,
    bending and pulling, who I know from first hand knowledge, are giving
    their due date as the beginning of their leave date, usually in the
    hope they'll deliver prior to their due date.  Because if they
    were to to out 2 weeks before their due date, and lets say were 2 weeks
    over due, what does that leave them, 2 weeks after to birth with pay. 
    I'd say not enough time for recovery.  They also have a policy that
    they do not have to put you back in your old job.  A friend of mine
    worked in the emergency room, and when she asked for an extention of
    leave they said they would grant it, unpaid, and she'd have to go back
    to work in a general nursing floor, because they couldn't hold her job
    past her expected return date.
    
    I know from where you both sit it very stressful, but please try to
    relax, for the sake of your baby!
    Lyn

    Apparently .7 was being written as I was writing mine.  If that is the
    case I will stand corrected on the UMass thing, but either way if it's
    2 or 4 weeks after birth, neither period is enough time to recover and
    get to know your new baby.
    
    Lyn

    re: basenote and .5
    
    Digital has a largely undeserved reputation as being "good to mothers"
    (could we make that "good to families"?)  In terms of vacation, leave,
    child care issues, part-time work, etc, Digital is barely competitive,
    and is well behind the enlightened segments of industry.
    
    Let alone Europe.  (But then that is a problem endemic to the US and
    its near-Third World level of social services.)
    
    Digital is a great place to work, but I wish we could muster the
    analytical skills to differentiate between Digitals treatment of us as
    workers, and as members of other groups (i.e., families).
    
    Kit

    
    Well, I had a planned C-section last Sept. I had the 2 weeks before
    and 8 weeks after. We didn't have a scheduled date for the section
    ahead of time. Even if you do, you don't have to tell DEC.
    My due date was the calculated due date. I went on leave 2 weeks
    before, had an ultrasound the following day and the section was
    then scheduled for 3 days before my due date. So, if you could get
    your doctor to not mention the "scheduled" part of the deal, then 
    I think you can get the time off. 
    
    If you need anymore info, you could contact me offline.
    
    Eva

    I just went in to see our personnel dept to discuss my due
    date, and the first thing she asked was "Are you having a
    planned C-section?"  I asked her why she wanted to know and
    she said the same thing that all of you are being told - you
    do not get the two weeks before your due date.  Since it is
    not an issue with me - I am not having a C-section so far - I
    wasn't that concerned, but after reading these notes I just 
    wanted to state for the record that in Cincinnati - the rules
    are the same.
    
    Kara

    In response to .7 or was it .8, in California you are entitled to 6
    weeks of paid leave/disability for vaginal birth and 8 weeks of paid
    leave/disability for Ceasarean.  This is regardless of when you went
    out on leave prior to the birth of your baby.  The leave begins the day
    you begin birth.  The real question here about the two weeks prior to a
    woman's due date is...Why is this time given in the first place?  I
    contend it is given because a woman is substantially physically drained
    between these two weeks!  Not because she is going to give birth
    vaginally and Digital is trying to compensate for the extra two weeks
    that Ceasarian mothers receive after the birth.  I've had two
    Ceasarians, and the recovery time is longer!  Digital just needs to be
    consistent and clear in their reasoning for doing this.  I don't care
    personally, because I intend to work as long as I can.  I can't stand
    to sit and wait.  But for some mothers this time is necessary,
    regardless of whether they anticipate a normal vaginal birth of not.

    
    
    Just to add another twist,  I had a planned repeat C-section in
    February, 1989.  The section was scheduled for 1 week before my
    official due date (which was 2 weeks early, but that's another story).
    I was scheduled to go on std 2 weeks before my planned section date.
    I had no problems with Health Services in LKG about this timing of std
    and a planned section.  As it turned out, I went out on std 4 weeks 
    before my planned section for various medical reasons.
    
    My feeling after 2 pregnancies at digital is that it depends on the
    nurses in your Health Services office.  I've always had the best
    rapport with them, discussing different pregnancy/work issues with them
    all along, keeping them informed of problems as they came up, and such.
    Maybe I lucked out with getting some understanding nurses at ZKO in
    1987 and LKG in 1989, I don't know.   My understanding of digital's
    maternity policy is that nothing is written in stone because every
    pregnancy can be different and basically, your doctor and the Health
    Services nurses 'negotiate' your leave, using the basics as a
    goal or guideline.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Donna
    
    
    ps - Nancy, say hi to Dale for me please.
    

    I just want to restate the basic problem here----
    
    The amount of time and when it is taken is based on your MEDICAL
    condition only--DEC does not have a maternity leave, this is STD we are
    talking about.  C-section Moms get 8 weeks after delivery because they 
    have had major surgery requiring additional recovery time than a vaginal 
    birth.  
    
    The disconnect the base noter is talking about is that women who do not
    have a scheduled c-section are considered to be MEDICALLY disabled
    (unable to work based on their physical state) two weeks before their 
    natural due date.  This is a widely accepted medical concept.
    (Women can decide whether or not they want to work during this time
    frame but it requires no additional medical documentation to be placed
    on STD for these two weeks.)
    
    Now, WHY would a woman having a planned c-section NOT be medically
    disabled two weeks before her NATURAL (not c-section date) due date? 
    What is different about her physical condition?  Her pregnancy is just
    as advanced, her body is under the same amount of stress, she has the
    same risk of pre-mature labor as any other normal pregnant woman at
    that stage.  She wouldn't go out two weeks before the planned c-section
    date, but two weeks before her natural due date. (This would mean a max 
    of two weeks and a minimum of 0 days, depending on when her c-section
    is planned for in relation to her natural due date.)   
    
    So, this is the unfairness of it.  They are suppose to be using standard
    medical guidelines, but in this case, it discriminates against women
    with planned c-sections.
    
    
    

Maybe things are real different out in the field (away
from GMA) but I thought it was your doctor who placed u
on STD and also your DR that signed you back to work?

My due date was 18 October and he put me on STD on 1 October
claiming I needed bed rest (my pressure did go up towards
the end of my pregnancy). Personnel never questioned it-
I did have the baby exactly 2 weeks later (10.15.90).

When it came time to "signing me back" to work and off of STD
I saw that when personnel sent me copies of the paperwork
he had signed me back to work 7.5 weeks after I gave
birth (I had a vaginal delivery). Again - no questions 
asked so I certainly wasn't goin to complain. I don't have 
the orange P&P manual here but I think the 6 and 8 weeks
after are guideline and not rules (?). If you are on STD
(which you are after giving birth) you have to get signed
back to active duty by your doctor.

So if your doctor fills out the STD paperwork saying you
shouldn't (can't) work 2 weeks prior to your c section,
who can say *no*? Do the Health care nurses have a say??

Dena

    The difference is that scheduled c-sections are usually scheduled
    well before the due date, to avoid having labor start before the
    surgery.  But that's the same motivation DEC has: they want you out
    of the office before labor might start, hence the two weeks.
    
    And yes, of course, if a real disability starts before a scheduled
    c-section, STD time is appropriate and allowed.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I don't have time to read all the replies here but can offer what I've
    done with DEC, and 2 planned c-sections.
    
    When they asked what my due-date was, I gave them the date for the
    planned c-section.  THAT was the date that the baby was DUE to be born.
    Period.
    
    As far as afterwards, I was told that the reason c-sections had 8 weeks
    after delivery was because it was considered major surgery and the
    recovery time was much more significant. 
    
    I never had a problem with either pregnancy.  Christopher was born a
    few days later than planned, Jason a few days earlier.  
    
    There were medical reasons for my c-sections, but no one even knew they
    were planned c.'s, let alone WHAT the medical reasons were.  It sounds
    like it's probably too late for the basenoter to get all her time, but
    for the rest of you, I'd just put down the C.- date as your DUE DATE,
    and then AFTER the baby's born, tell them it was a c-section.
    
    It can't be true that the reason is so that everyone gets 8 weeks, no
    one gets 10, because if I'm planned vaginal birth, take my 2 weeks, go
    in right on time, have an emergency c.section, I still get 8 weeks
    after - CUZ IT'S SURGERY!!
    
    I'd fight it!
    

    Well, I think it's time for me (the basenoter) to reiterate my
    situation so that anyone facing a planned C-section in the future won't
    end-up like I am (my true purpose for entering this note).
    
    I *was not* aware of Digital's policy on planned C-sections when I
    called Benefits for the disability paperwork (following standard
    procedure). During that call, the Benefits person asked me many
    questions, some of which concerned plans around the birth itself
    (that's when I mentioned the planned C-section). She then informed me
    that unless I had a *MEDICAL* reason for leaving earlier than the date
    of my surgery, I would be expected to work until the day before.
    
    At that time, I believed that she (the Benefits person) was quoting a
    policy based on the time when planned C-sections were typically done at
    38 weeks, and that I would still be allowed to go two weeks before my
    *due* date, since my C-section is scheduled for five days before my due
    date. Obviously, I was mistaken, since the medical consultant at my
    site since rejected my doctor's note because it didn't contain a medical
    reason...just her policy that her patients cease working at 38 weeks.
    
    In summary, had I known about this policy in advance I would've handled
    the situation in a much different way. Nevertheless, I'm *not* sitting
    back and doing nothing and will continue to pursue this until the
    situation is resolved in an acceptable manner.
    
    To those who have offered support through this notesfile, thank you
    very much.
    
    Nancy-

    
    	RE: Nancy
    
    	Without getting into a huge benefits discussion/argument
    	here, since it's not the appropriate place.
    
    	I commend you for pursuing the matter.  There are a lot
    	of things I don't particularly care for either regarding
    	the supposed "benefits" when going out on STD.
    
    	They aren't right, nor are they fair.  Let me know if I
    	can help!
    
    	/Kim