Conference moira::parenting_v3

Steve,

You'll survive!  Really!  It sounds to me like you've got a normal,
healthy 14 1/2-month-old!  Your note sounds a lot like notes that
Dottie Jensen entered a while back about JA - you might look them up
for some comfort in shared experiences.

I, too, was surprised by the climbing stage that followed the walking stage -
what a nuisance to be doing yet more baby-proofing just when you think you're
almost done with it!  We moved stuff to closets (and added latches to some
of them) when David was in this stage.  Anything out in the open was fair
game to him, but just getting it out of sight helped.

Does he like music?  David has always settled down pretty well to listen
to music cassettes (Raffi, Tom Paxton, any of those tapes that the yuppie
kid store rack is full of).  This also helped (and still does) to get him to
rest quietly, and usually fall asleep, at nap time.

Does he play outside much?  That's usually a good way to use up energy
harmlessly, and often my kids nap a lot better if they've been playing
outside.

I wouldn't push on the milk thing.  I'm a firm believer in making only healthy
foods available, but letting my kids pretty much decide what they want to
eat/drink out of that healthy selection.  (Well, ok, we won't talk about the
Girl Scout cookies.) :)  If it bothers you and Pat that he's not getting enoug
milk, try dairy products in him in other forms - cheese, yoghurt, milk-based
soups, etc.

Messy eating will continue for a while.  I think David was pretty neat somewhere
between 1 1/2 and 2.  He still (at 3+) eats oatmeal, spaghetti, etc. with his
hands sometimes, rather than silverware.  So what?  He's washable. :)
The throwing is something you probably need to preempt - can you see when he's
working up to it and remove the cup/bowl/whatever before he has a chance
to throw it?  Usually David would go through a "goofing around" stage before
actually throwing the food, and that was a signal to get the food away from
him!  Trying to teach him that throwing is forbidden is rather futile at this
age, in my opinion.

Nobody can tell you for sure how long any given stage lasts, but what I've
found is that they *do* end, and you get a peaceful interlude before the
next set of problems start.  Usually.  You may look back fondly on this
stage when he reaches 2+.

			cheryl

    STEVE,
    
    One comment you made at the end triggered some thoughts.  "We tried
    hard not to react..."  That is your (IMO) mistake.  When you let the
    kids get the best of you and control the situation you get just what
    you asked for - complete and utter chaos.  When you take control of a
    situation and train the child from early on what behaviour is expected
    (and except nothing less) you will see a big difference in both the
    child and in yourself (wife included).  Who is the adult in the house?  
    
    We had a foster baby who had absolutely no controls placed on him - as
    well as no love and attention.  We (thru a lot of hard work and tears)
    turned this kid around to learn to love - to give love and take love. 
    We weaned him from a bottle (which was his only source of food at 12
    months) and taught him to use utensils when eating.  The funniest thing
    would be when Jamie sat in his highchair to eat.  I would give him a
    spoon or fork.  He would put it in the bowl, lift the food, and take it
    with his other hand to put in his mouth.  I would remind him "Jamie,
    use your fork".  He would immediately put the food back on the fork and
    put it in his mouth.  It became a natural part of mealtime for about a
    week.  I would always say "Jamie, use your <fork/spoon>."  Even if I
    wasn't looking at him - I instinctively knew what he was doing.  After
    a week, he had the action down perfectly and fed himself cleanly and
    neatly.  We never had to wash the floor after mealtime again.  Jamie
    was 14 months old at this point and had been eating table foods for
    about a month with assistance.
    
    My children have been taught from early on (less than a year old) what
    they were allowed to touch and not touch, to climb and not climb.  Give
    them their boundaries - stick to them without faltering.  Explain why
    you don't want them to climb up on the stove.  Have mom hold him near
    the stove so he can see what is happening.  It may come to him wanting
    to be lifted to see, but hey life is very boring from two feet off the
    ground.  I taught my kids how to use the TV properly, how to use the
    VCR, the stereo, etc.  They were able to use these items since two and
    they did it right!!  If we provide the proper instruction, they won't
    be trying to do it "their way", because the right way will be their way.
    
    You may also find that your son doesn't need milk.  If he is getting
    the same vitamins and nutrients milk offers from his other foods, he
    shouldn't need milk.  Broccoli is a great source of calcium and
    vitamins and with cheese on it - it will be sure to disappear at
    mealtime.  Experiment with his diet.
    
    Just think - you haven't even come into the "terrible two's" yet!!
    
    Good luck - and it's never to late to start showing them who the boss
    is.  If you let him rule the roost - he sure will.  Remember - he has a
    lot less of life's experiences to draw on than you.  Scary thought!
    
    Sorry if I rambled - but this is a sore spot with me - and I am willing
    to take any and all flames.
    
    Good luck!  Take this for what it's worth!
    
    -sandy
    

Some thoughts/suggestions.....

Sleeping:  Has Pat tried laying down with him?  Kati takes her nap every day
at school, but refuses to take one at home unless I lay down with her.  She
has never napped in her crib, always on my waterbed.  If I want her to nap we
just lay down on the bed and talk/play until she falls asleep.  Then I either
sleep too, or get up and do chores.

Excess energy:  Have you and Pat considered a play group, mother's day out,
or something similar????  Every day when we get home from school Kati is
EXHAUSTED.  I have never had to babyproof anything in my home (though I do
keep a few harmful things out of reach) because she has so much playing,
exploring, excercising, etc.... at school that when she comes home she wants
to cuddle/read/help cook/etc....   I don't think Michael is hyper or anything
but normal, but I think that getting him in a setting where he can do some
major playing, without worry of babyproofing or you/Pat entertaining him, might
help.  Even when Dottie had similar troubles, JA was (I believe) staying with
her daddy all day while he tried to study/work.

Milk:  I agree that it's probably no big deal if he is getting vitamins.  Try 
Flinstones or something, and I'm sure you feed him healthy foods.  The more you
push the milk, the more he will resist.  Try having 2 cups - one with milk and
one with water - PUSH him to drink the one with water in it, and he'll probably
insist on the milk (or that may come closer to age 2!)!

Food:  How about ending his meal when he throws something.  You can give him a
firm "NO Michael, we do NOT throw things" then take it all away....  Again, we
never went through this, but food is Kati's most treasured thing and she would
never let a morsel get out of reach!

Good luck!
Kristen

Hate to say this ... 

He sounds perfectly normal to me !

He has reached the stage where he's learning SO much he can't stand the idea
of missing out on anything.

For naps, that's the tough one ...  You've got to find a way that he enjoys
a qiet time in his crib, even if he doesn't actually nap ... maybe some
hardcover, or cloth books in with him might help.  DO't force him to try
to nap per se ... just say this is a quiet time ... you can lookat these books
etc and see if he just unwinds a bit ...

As to the kitchen looking like a bomb struck ... that won't change till
the kids leave home!  Honestly ... the mess just moves from the floor
to the table, counters and sink!

Stuart

    I think Michael could use a play group.  while James has never been
    a non-stop kind of kid, I notice that we have the most "problems,"
    if you will, when he's home with us on the weekend.  It sounds like
    Michael is smart and he is BORED!!  It's not too soon to put him
    in with other kids.
    
    It's kind of late for this, but when James started getting around,
    we put a gate up between the front living room/dining room and the
    kitchen.  You have to walk through our kitchen to get to the 
    bathroom, the bedrooms, to go down to the basement -- talk about
    a disaster area!!  So we babyproofed the hell out of the front
    room, and everything else was off limits -- till the day that
    James, abuot 17 months, knocked over the gate.  But by that
    time, he had a little more sense and I didn't have too many
    problems.  He did break the answering machine in our room, though.
    
    Naps I can't help you with -- but I would still put him down in
    his crib for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon.
    Tell him it's quiet time and you'll get him in an hour.  Put on a
    tape or something and leave the room.  CLose the door.  Go down
    to the basement and putter.  Let him holler!  James still sometimes
    protests going in for a nap.  They hate to miss anything.
    
    I definitely agree with the noter who wrote, "Let him know who's
    boss."  It is true, you hate to be hard-nosed, but you do have to
    put your foot down.  You don't have to be mean, but you do have to
    be firm and consistent.  This has been the hardest parenting lesson
    for me to learn.  Since it sounds like Michael is smart, sit down
    with him for a minute and tell him what your expectations are.
    "Mommy will put you in for a nap at this time...we don't throw food
    or sippy cups...etc., etc."  Maybe start instituting time-out for
    rules infractions.  The point is, start taking control now. 
    
    There is a book I'm going to buy, it's called "The Strong-Willed 
    Child," and I think it's by Dr. James Dobson.  A lot of his theories
    are pretty conservative for my taste (and this is from a woman whose
    MOTHER-IN-LAW thinks she's pretty strict!), but he does make sense
    in that he urges parents to take a leadership stand in the home.
    
    Of everything you listed in your base note, I would put Michael's
    not liking milk at the bottom of my worry list!
    
    Good luck.  I think a play group will help use up Michael's excess
    energy and will give Pat a badly needed break.
    

    First, you  need to enter shorter notes so I don't forget all the
    topics by the time I get to the end of the note !:-)  He sounds like a
    greatly rambunctious, active 14 month old, which is what you want.
    
    Sleep - if he won't nap, he won't. Perhaps Pat could institute quiet
    time in his crib each morning, giving him some books and/or soft toys
    and being firm to say that this is his quiet time in the crib for a
    bit. That way she'd get to have a cup of coffee to herself for a few
    minutes. Have her set the timer for 15-20 minutes if it's difficult to
    restrain herself from getting him up.
    
    A playgroup is  a must at this age - any contact with kids is - as is
    as much time outdoors as you can each day. By 8-9 months, Ryan had
    little interest in us except for food and cuddles - he was much more
    stimulated by other kids.  And, are there any 11-12 yr. olds in your
    neighborhood who want to be mom's helper in the afternoons for a couple
    hours? Not so Pat can get out so much as that she can have someone else
    to divert his attention and/or take him for a walk around the block.
    
    My doctor's attitude about milk is that as long as the kid is healthy
    and growing don't make an issue of it. Supplement generously with
    cheese and yogurt what are as good, if not better sources of calcium.
    Yogurt has more per cup than milk.  Keep offering milk but don't make
    an issue of it. We simply have a rule that milk is for meals and juice
    in between.  
    
    As for eating - get a dog! The mess on the floor is minimized. Throwing
    food isn't a great idea when he's done but they all go through it. Ryan
    used to put it in his mouth and then spit it out when he didn't want
    anymore - I find that grosser than throwing it. But we just keep
    reinforcing that it's not a good behavior - and make sure to offer him
    another way to let you know he doesn't want anymore.
    
    Pat WILL survive this stage only to encounter the terrible two's which
    start any month now -- she needs to get out though, is my bet, and get
    some time to herself.
    
    One last thought about child proofing the house - like a previous
    reply, we blockaded off rooms - Ryan had the run of the downstairs as
    an early toddler but our room and the dining room had gates up. So he
    could crawl/walk/run from the living room all the down the hall to his
    room. At one point the bathroom door was also closed so he couldn't get
    in there by himself. Then, each available room was child proofed so he
    couldn't demolish himself or something else in the 2 minutes it takes
    to get him there. Make the rooms you spend time with Michael in as safe
    as possible so you don't have to spend your time as you described -
    chasing him from one no-no thing to another. 
    
    Best of luck,
    Lynn
    

    About the sleep question -
    
    I agree that Ferber doesn't always have *the* answer. I usually
    end up improvising based on a combination of his theories and
    my own "wisdom" (ha!) Is it possible to try to nudge Michael's 
    naptime to a later time, so he will be more ready to let go? This 
    may take some rearranging of your morning schedules for a while.
    Maybe doing a few errands early, then being at home mid-morning and
    trying to get him to sleep at 11 or 11:30. 
    
    When he does fall asleep in the car, will he stay asleep if you let
    him? Sometimes I just leave Daniel asleep in the carseat, with the car
    parked so that I can see him from the kitchen window. Then I get a 
    few chores done while he's conked out. Likewise when he used to fall 
    asleep in the stroller during a walk. If I tried to move him to bed
    he would wake up.
    
    Lucy

    I don't think I have much to add....
    
    Naps, I found the best way to force a nap is to get outside with Justine
    and take a walk. Or we start with some quiet time together reading 1 or
    2 books. She also has an organizer over her cirb where we put some
    books for her to read.
    
    Milk...as stated, milk only at meals, she doesn't get to choose.
    
    I also agree with the noter who said its time to start putting your
    foot down on bad behavior. My husband brought it to my attention when
    Justine was about Michael's age. I'll bet he understands a lot more
    than you think. Not harsh but firm.

    Well, here's my two cents worth....  You could change the name
    "Michael" to "John Michael" and you would have been talking about my
    little guy!  He actually didn't start that stage till about 16 months
    and held us hostage for a couple months till we figured it out - we'll
    do better the next time around!
    
    We learned the hard way about reaching stuff on the counters -
    Christmas morning I had pulled out the fancy holiday mugs and had just
    filled one with *hot* coffee for my husband.  That fast, JM saw it,
    reached up and hooked it with his fingers and pulled it off the counter
    and onto himself.  Needless to say, we spent the a.m. in Emergency with
    2nd and 3rd degree burns on his chest.
    
    I agree with .7 about getting a dog - our Brittany is so fat from JM's
    food flinging that I can't show her this spring till she looses weight!
    
    As far as getting into rooms, we allow him in the kitchen/family room
    and living room and his room.  All other rooms, including bathrooms,
    have those hook and eye locks on them - way up high.  You only have to
    fish your toothbrush out of the toilet once for that lesson....
    
    At the grocery store, JM is really active.  One market has seat belts
    in the carts and the other I shop at does not, so I take an old cotton
    webbing belt and keep him in the cart that way.  
    
    Naps - that was a real battle till we figured out a strategy.  We told
    him he didn't have to sleep, but he *did* have to stay in his room.  He
    could read or play with his legos (or something quiet), but he had to
    stay in his room.  Every time he would open his door and come out, we
    would walk him back in and remind him of the rule and then close the
    door behind us.  There were a couple weeks of him being upset (not
    every day, but fairly often).  But we stuck to our guns both at nap
    time and at bedtime and it has worked.  We also slid bedtime later, to
    about 9:00 and that seemed to help.  And we will usually play a radio
    in his room very softly.  One thing we don't do is lay down with him
    because we are afraid to start a new problem of him not wanting to
    sleep alone.
    
    Eating - his best meal is breakfast and it goes down hill from there. 
    Try finger foods - JM really likes green beans and (get this!)
    broccoli if he can eat it with his fingers.  
    
    Time out - we also started time out at the suggestion of his day time
    sitter (she watches him about one day a week).  It gives him a chance
    to settle himself down without any stimulation.  At home, I will
    usually put him in his high chair facing away from the activity in the
    room.  At this age, less than a minute works very well.
    
    Day away - my husband has his office at home, so he has JM with him
    most days.  But he does need time away from JM to get work done, so we
    use a drop in sitter for that purpose and it also serves as a
    play/social group for JM.
    
    Don't be afraid of the "Terrible Two's" - JM is now 2.4 yrs and he is
    really a lot of fun.  Yes, very active, very curious, very intense, but
    every day is a learning experience for him and he is like a little
    human sponge, soaking in everything - good and not good.  So we try
    to roll with the punches on the stressful days and try to turn some of
    those situations into positive experiences for JM.  When he gets
    totally obnoxious, we try to completely change activities - even if it
    means taking a walk around the block at 9:00 p.m.  Some days it doesn't
    work, but most days it does!
    
    Take a deep breath - you'll survive!
    
    Cathy Koos Breazeal

    
    I don't think the problem has anything to do whatsoever with his
    behavior.  It's the name... Michael.  It's a real nice name (in fact my
    favorite for boys) but for some reason I haven't yet met a Michael who
    WAS a quite type kid.  They're all a bit rambunctious.  (Including my
    brother, Michael, a friend, Michael and a few other Michaels out
    there.)  
    
    Any other "Michael" parents that can comment on this?  
    
    
    (rathole?)
    
    
    jean

    Somebody brought up a very good idea and that was to find something
    for your wife to do that was out of the home without Michael.
    Perhaps you could find someone to sit for a morning or afternoon
    a week which would give her some time for herself.  Or perhaps
    she could find some daytime activity which provides a sitting service.
    
    My wife joined a ladies bowling league.  It gets her out and the
    kiddies are looked after by someone paid for by the league in a
    room at the alley.  It has been very good for my wife, and it gets
    her out of the house and fends off that dreaded cabin fever.
    
    Stuart

    
    re: .11
    
    I hope thats not true of ALL "Michaels"....The only boys name my husband 
    and I have picked out, both agreed upon, and both like, is Michael.
    (Michael John actually)
    
    Your making me "think" now!  ha ha
    
    (Not that these Michaels or JM's sound terribly out of the ordinary
    though than most kids at their age...)
    
    :-)
    

    Jonathan, who is also 14 1/2 months old, does the same thing as your
    son Michael.  
    
    He takes about 4 hrs nap during the weekdays for 10a.m. till 2.p.m. 
    He sure wants to give our babysitter lots of free time.  In the weekend
    he can pass the whole day without even 5 mins nap.  I don't know how he can
    do it.  No matter how tired he is, he is very excited that we are
    around, that he just doesn't want to go to sleep.  Weekend is the time
    we do most of the cleaning and run errands, but everything depends on
    Jonathan.  Of course, if one of us take a nap with him he will sleep,
    but he will wake up as soon as we are awake. 
    
    
    I myself wanted to enter a separate topic regarding the milk problem.
    Just after he cut his first 2 teeth, he does not show any interest in
    drinking milk.  Morning milk he drinks about 3 oz. without any fuss,
    and the rest of the day we have to force.  He doesn't like to drink
    from a cup, and he takes about 45 mins to drink 2 oz. of milk from the
    bottle.  He does keep sucking, the nipple hole is big enough to trickle
    down, still he is successful in drinking it slowly.  On top of that
    he should not have any distractions while drinking milk.  I feel very
    bad for I have to ask my 2 girls to leave the room and be quiet while
    he is drinking milk.  I just don't know what to do about it. Planning
    to ask our Pedi during his 15 month  checkup.  As I am not giving any
    vitamins to him, I am a lot concerned about this.  He does not like 
    juice or water either.
    
    We cannot have our Dining table set before dinner, as he can climb up
    the chair and then on to the table and try to clean the table.  He does
    not want to see anything on the table.  It is so hard to host anyone
    when he is awake and around.  I never felt this way with my 2 girls.
    He does not want to sit in his high chair but wants to sit in adult
    chairs.
    
    
    Going in a car is also an adventure for us.  He loves to go out with
    his  jacket and shoes on, but does not like the car ride.  Within 2
    mins, he will start to cry, as he does not want to resticted to one
    place.  
    
    One thing he loves music, so if I turn on his favourite songs he will 
    start to dance to the music.  He can listen to the music for a max. of
    15 mins, of course we should be around while he is listening.  
    
    While eating solid food,  I feed him so that there will not be much
    mess for me cleanup later.  He does sit and snack with us by himself
    while we are having dinner.  
    
    Boys are alot different from Girls - this is what I feel after having
    Jonathan.
    
    If only he would drink milk and eat properly, I would forget all the 
    other complaints I mentioned above.
    
    - Elizabeth.
      

    Milk:  Have vyou tried chocolate milk?  My son loves it (18 months)
    
    Sleep:  Have you tried waking him up earlier in the morning?  I can't
    believe he sleeps till 7:30!!  None of mine ever slept much past 6 am,
    and they were so pooped by 11 that naps were not a problem.  Of course
    that means YOU have to get up earlier too!
    
    Eating:  Aaahhh!  I can see you haven't developed the keen eye and
    graceful swoooop necessary for being the parent of a young toddler yet. 
    What you have to do is hover over the child, eying him carefully while
    he eats.  At the FIRST move of his, indicating he's ready to launch his
    plate onto the floor, fling his cup to the ceiling, you say "All done?" 
    Good!  And snatch that plate and cup, whisk it into the sink, and
    promptly clean him up (or hose him down, whichever is more
    appropriate).
    
    Energy:  Does he understand the word "No"?  This is a necessity.  Also,
    gates latches closed doors and (yes) play-yards.  He sounds pretty
    typical to me, and I have to agree with the others, he sounds like he
    could use some company his own age.  At his age, I wouldn't attempt to
    leave him alone for any length of time without expectign him to get
    into trouble/mischief.
    
    Welcome to the world of toddler parenthood.
    

    Wow, does this sound like my little girl too!  You should have your
    wife and son some and visit us!! They would feel so normal.  I work
    three days and some days I feel like I really get a break coming to
    work - and my job is really hectic!!!
    
    I can't offer much else than everyone else here already has - but my
    husband bought me one of those trail bikes with a baby seat for Kelly
    and she LOVES it.  And she has never fallen asleep in it.  It gives me
    a break from chasing her all over the house, the yard, the mall...oh
    well, you know how it is!
    
    My babysitter keeps telling me that this type of child always grows
    up very smart because they are so inquisitive...I hope I live long
    enough to see it!!!
    
    Good luck.
    
    Donna
    
    P.S. Do you have a toddlet playgroup near you? that helps.
    

    Boy, can I relate to the climbing antics.  My 16 month old son sounds
    exactly like Michael, including moving the diningroom chairs around
    (heavy chairs, moving on carpet) to get what he wants.  My counters
    have never been so clean!  For dinner time, we sit him in his high
    chair right up to the table, and give him ONE food at a time.  Give him
    chicken, potatoes and veggies, and he flings them around and plays with
    it.  Give him one selection at a time, and he MAY eat it.  Usually we
    resort to baby food, but we keep trying. My mother did comment last
    weekend on how "busy" he is.  Guess some kids ust have different energy
    levels, but he doesn't sound clinically hyperactive.
    

    This sounds exactly like my daughter Amanda now 12 months old.  She has
    been climbing on the table and desk for about 2 months.  She can't move
    the chairs on the carpet so if keep them tucked in she will climb up on
    them and bang her head on the under side of the table and scream.  The
    chair for the desk is on a tile floor so there is nothing to do but
    keep removing her.  She like to get on the desk for the telephone.  The
    other day my husband was watching her and had a contractor over to look
    at the basement they went down stairs with Amanda and while he wasen't
    looking she went back up the stairs( she has been able to go up and
    down the stairs since 9 monthes old when she became proficient at walking)
    and climbed up on the table and proceeded to write all over the
    contractors papers he left on the table.

       She also throws her food but usually only when she is done eating.
    I need to teach her how to use a spoon.  I have started but am not sure
    when I should push this isue.  She does not drink much milk which
    bothers her father but since I don't drink much milk and am pretty
    healthy I'm not worried, besides if she got much healthier it might
    kill me.!! One idea I read somewhere in this notesfile is to use a
    fancy straw you know with swirls and stuff use this only for the milk
    and it may help.

    She doesn't have any problems with naps though because she wears
    herself out.  The play groups might help because when she is at the
    babysitters she doesn't get into as much there is a little girl there
    about 18 months old and they play together.

    This blows the theory of kids named Michael!!
                                                      Mary 

    In re Michaels ;-) my Michael, now 21, was also a climber and
    hated naps at an early age! :-)
    
    I'd second the suggestion of flavoring in the milk. We used strawberry
    quick, since chocolate was at the time considered a no,no for kids.
    He drank 'pink milk' for about a year.
    
    We also had the problem of his falling asleep when we were only
    a few minutes from home and then waking up and not wanting to
    sleep any longer. At first I'd talk to him, shake him gently etc
    to keep him awake. Then we discovered that 'reverse psychology'
    worked wonderfully. When it looked like he was about to doze off
    we'd tell him to go to sleep. In response he'd do his best to
    stay awake.
    
    They do out grow all of these stages. Michael is now 21 and the
    father of a 3 month old daughter!
    
    ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    I concur with the "it's normal" opinions regarding sleep.
    I hated the 14-15 month old sleep stage.  Our pediatrician
    explained that that's when they move from one nap to two naps.
    It was difficult because my daughter was always sleepy in the
    morning, but still wanted to stay up to enjoy the world.
    
    Slowly moving the am naptime to later in the morning with a
    good size "brunch-snack" before hand helped to keep her asleep
    for a length of time.  Without it, she would wake up from hunge
    and then be a real pain around 5:30 and dinnertime.
    
    Take heart though, it's only a stage.
    
    Diana