Conference moira::parenting_v3

  I had similar problems when my son was born.
    
    Be careful not to put your husband down because he will get defensive.
  Just accept that since you are with your daughter most of the time you
  know her needs better.  Let him discover his own methods of taking care
  of her.  They might not be what you would do but most of the time the
  children aren't any worse off.  

  Examples are: when I came home last night Stephen was put to bed in his 
  clothes instead of his pajamas and my husband fed the baby 'baby food' 
  because he didn't know she can eat real food yet.  Just tell him as much as 
  you can about how and what the kids are doing and then let him have a
  go at parenting.  

  I have gained insight into my husband by watching him parent, and have
  also learned quite a bit too.  He has some great parenting ideas if I let 
  him get a word in and he isn't too intimidated to express them to me.
  It is so easy for the Mom in me to take over sometimes!

  Cheers,

  Karin 

    
    Hmmm...my suggestion would be to NOT try "to teach a new father";
    but to let him learn on his own.   It can be difficult to let go, 
    but I have gradually learned (somewhat painfully at times!) that my 
    husband will never do everything just as I would do *and* that our
    son was not worse-for-wear because of his different technique.  It
    is their relationship and I can not define it for them.   
    
    However, when I go out and Jason is home with dad (I don't like the
    term babysit for one's own child!), I do write a list of "ideas"
    for him...what to have for lunch, chores that need doing, times 
    and doses for medicine...which Michael (my husband) seems to 
    appreciate; takes what he needs from the list or does his own
    thing.
    
    Good luck.  It gets much easier as they get older and can eat from
    the table and/or communicate their needs.
    
    Carol

    Mary,
    
    I am not sure you will get an answer for your question.  I always
    think that there is something about mothers that cann't be replaced
    by fathers.  Somehow mothers can tell their babys' needs better
    than fathers.  My husband is the same as yours.  I always hesitate
    to ask him to babysit.  Because everytime he babysits, there is
    something screwed up.  He either forgot to change the baby or
    messed up the feedings.   However, I still feel that I am lucky.
    At least, he is willing to help out.
    
    
    Wendy
    

    Speaking as a father who tries to do more than just babysit on
    occasion, I'll make two points:
    
    o	If you _absolutely_ have to have something done, write
    	it down.  There is no substitute for this: verbal instructions
    	won't be remembered 100%.
    
    o	If you don't _absolutely_ have to have something done
    	exactly the way you would do it, leave him alone and let
    	him learn.  Intervene only if there is a real danger to
    	the child.
    
    Most of us don't start out knowing how to care for a baby--we
    learn as we go, getting better as time goes on.  If you've been
    the primary care-taker, you may have several times more
    "baby-hours" than he does.  The only cure for that is giving
    him more hours.
    
    If you keep correcting him, he won't be any happier than you would
    be if some more experienced person (for example, your mother) kept
    correcting how you treated your child!
    
    			-John Bishop

Since you asked...

I think a lot of the problems that fathers supposed have when taking care of
their children are based on ignorance because they are not always included
as "real parents" to do "real parenting".  In our house we have always *both*
been parents, both had "primary" responsibility toward the baby/child.
It has worked well.  We constantly discuss our child's needs and experiences.
We share information on him *constantly*.  Neither one of us ever "babysits"
the child, but both of us have times during the week when we have sole
responsibility for him. 

We still have differing opinions, and when we do, we talk them out.
For instance, sometimes we just agree to disagree, and she will do things
differently than I will.  Other times, if it is a big deal to one of us,
then we will ask the other person to change habits.  For instance, I am
the one who always forgets the jacket/sweater, because I also forget it for
myself.  Our son doesn't seem to mind much, either, but Shellie is of the
school of thought that a person *has* to wear one if it is the least bit
chilly.  She gave up trying to get me to wear one, but we made an agreement
that if it is chilly/cold outside, our son has to have his jacket *with*
him, even if he doesn't wear it.  I can live with that.

I am not trying to put anyone down for their styles, but just want to 
caution that if you want two people fully parenting your child, you have
to allow both parents to do so, and share information so that both parents are
well-informed.

Peace.

      Carol

I'll join the chorus.  What worked early on for me was having my wife
post a schedule of what happened when during the day.  some things were
noted in absolute time (lunch 11:00) some were relative time (juice
after he gets up.) I'd refer to the schedule during the day.  I didn't
consider it absolute, but it was a helpful guide, especially if it got
updated to reflect changes (like when the switch from baby food to
table food happened.)

The other useful thing was that we always chit-chat over dinner about
what's new in the daily routines, who's doing what, what's stopped,
what new vocabulary has been picked up, what the trends are etc.

Other than that, you have to learn to delegate.  Be more goal-oriented
(kids fed, bathed and in bed) rather than process oriented (kids fed
specific food at specific time, bathed a specific way dried with the
specific towel and in bed with the head pointed North.)  The kids
themselves instinctively understand that things are going to be
different with Dad than with Mom, so, barring things that are saftey
related, it's better for each of you to worry about your own tasks
rather than the other's.

                    >>>==>PStJTT

    Thanks for the advice.  Most of you suggest that I relax and let him do
    what he feels is best. It's hard. but I think you're right.
    
    One item I forgot to mention that has an impact here is that I work
    full time and we have a day-time nanny come to our house to take care
    of Ellen.  Being older and more traditional, she always waits for me to
    talk about what the baby did on a particular day, even though I would
    prefer she share that type of information with my husband as well.
    Seems that if I can get the two of them to discuss the activities more
    often my husband will be kept informed better on the what is happening
    with Ellen's care.  He and I can then discuss things between ourselves.
    
    Maryz

    Being a "new" mother while Philip already has two grown children and is
    the 3rd out of 12 himself, I've been on the receiving end of the
    greater knowledge that he of course says he has.  Let me tell you it
    can drive you crazy!  So do lighten up.  I agree with the advice about
    compromising on some things which are really important.  Philip hated
    it that the baby got messy when I fed her.  I hated it that he wiped
    her mouth after what seemed every spoonful.  We finally realized that
    it didn't much matter as long as she ate.  
    
    Philip has more caretaking time with Daniela than I do, since his
    schedule allows three days a week devoted to her.  I only get weekends. 
    I think it's really taken about 6 months to iron out how we wanted to
    manage things, without grumping about this and that all the time.  So
    if this new knowledge of how long it takes to integrate a new person
    into the household is correct, you're right on schedule.  Good luck!

A couple of comments, in addition to the excellent advice that
you've already gotten.

     -    Some men learn better from "experts".  Does your husband
          ever take your daughter to the pediatrician, either with
          you, or by himself?  How about having HIM go to the six
          month checkup and ask the doctor about the weight issue. 
          Also, do you have any books (e.g. Spock, Leach,
          Brazleton) around the house?  That might help, if he's
          the kind of person who likes to get information from
          books.  Who knows, he might be right on occasion, or it
          may make no difference.

     -    If you have a full time job, then IMO, he should do more
          than babysit "two night a week and helps out on
          weekends".  Maybe 50 - 50 is not possible, or even
          desirable, but don't let it be 90 - 10, even during the
          times that you are around.  If he has more direct contact
          with her, then he may start to be more cognizant. 
          Sometimes this may involve going against instincts (both
          your instincts to do it, and his to let you do it).  Even
          if you COULD, for example, change the baby, ask him to do
          it.

     -    regarding your nanny.  I know that problem very well.  We
          used to have a babysitter who would, for example, if I
          picked our children up, call my wife later.  It made me
          feel very good when my wife would say "Couldn't you have told
          Clay?".  After a while, she started communicating with
          whoever picked the kids up.  You could do something
          similar.  Also, I suggest that a few times go directly to
          aerobics from work.  Eat out if necessary.  This may have
          a positive effect on your husband, your nanny, as well as
          giving you a nice break.  Another possibility is to have
          her write the information in some sort of log or diary.

Clay

    
    Answer from a dad:  I see a big fallacy here, that being that there is
    only one correct way to do things with ones child.  There are several 
    correct ways of doing things and while your husband might not do things
    exactly the way you would or think they should be done does not man
    they are wrong.  Is this your first child as well?  It sounds like it
    is going to be a learning experience for you both.  It takes a while
    and I am speaking from experience.  You have to (and will) learn to
    compliment each other both in telling one another how good of a job the
    other is doing as well as assisting one another (I see a problem with
    the way you are approaching the situation).  You have to act as a team,
    not good old mom teaching bumbling old dad how to handle a child.  (I
    fear I'm sounding harsh here, but it is not meant to sound that way,
    it's hard to convey ones intentions in this medium)  He will learn, you
    will learn the fun is doing it together.  It is very hard to learn
    anything about parenting from books or from listening to someone...it
    is one job that experience is the only true teacher.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike  

We have a similar problem, in that my husband travels for a living (airline
pilot) and is sometimes away for weeks at a time.  (The last time it was
5-1/2 weeks with only a couple weekends home).

The good thing is my husband wants to do as much as he can when he's here.  The
first day or two can be difficult.  I get used to coping on my own and making
decisions, then all of a sudden, I have to explain what I'm doing and why.  Her
daycare provider and I will be well coordinated and consistent, and she'll be 
happy and content.  Then he'll come home and be out of sync with us and Elise 
will get confused and become hard to handle.

But he has great instincts about her.  I swear sometimes I think he and my 
daughter have a psychic link.

I've found some things that help.  I note how she's changed since he saw her 
last and tell him directly.  (For example, she outgrew colic during the
5-1/2 week absence; I told him it was gone and that she no longer needs or
enjoys the colic techniques, now she wants to watch everything that's going on 
around her).

I also keep a notebook for her of daily activities.  Not only so he can see 
what she does when he is gone, but helps us figure out how much formula to make,
etc.  I started this during her first month;  it got me thru the sleepless 
nights and the colic, by proving that an eating pattern was indeed forming and 
that there really were some non-screaming days.

I still find it hard to let him do things his way.  I have to constantly
remind myself that their relationship is theirs and it will be whatever they 
make it.  If he doesn't respond to her like I would, well, he isn't me.  
Of course, this is the theory.  The practise is much harder.

I also agree with a previous noter about "babysitting".  It isn't babysitting
when it's your own child.

    Though this doesn't seem like a problem for the basenote, it still
    seems relevant here:
    
    When my daughter was a newborn, my husband and I had arguments about
    how best to care for her.  I realized we were competing and discussed
    it with him frankly.  Our problems about competition should not have
    our daughter as a subject, I said.  
    
    Since then, I have trusted him increasingly with her care, and he is
    really very good with her.  We restrain our competitiveness to other
    areas of life, so she's not in the middle.  It's just not fair to her.
    
    By the way, it did get easier when I weaned her to the bottle.  Then he
    didn't have to depend on me to feed her, and could just as easily do it
    himself.
    
    This weekend, we learned to trust my parents with her care.  They
    didn't see her since November.  It was rough at first.  My Mom had to
    re-learn how to care for her with my Dad's help.  It didn't help that baby
    was tired and we were all giving Grandma advice, all conflicting!  But
    things did settle down.  Grandma learned to read baby's signals.
    
    Next, we'll have to trust an evening babysitter.  I think it's harder
    when Mom works full time.  It's hard enough relinquishing control to
    the daycare provider, never mind husband/grandparent/babysitter.  But
    we do need rest and recreation sometimes.  And baby's quite flexible.
    
    Laura  

	More of the same...

	I must tell you that my spine literally crawls every time I hear about
a Dad "babysitting" their child(ren).  As long as you and he have the attitude 
that he's "babysitting" and "helping you out", you'll have conflicts about 
doing it "the right way".  If you want him to be more in tune with the baby,
he needs to have exposure to the baby.  In my opinion and experience, there's 
no magic mommy gland that puts you in sync with the baby.  The reason why 
(traditionally) Mommies were better with babies is because (traditionally) 
Mommies spent more time with babies.  

	Don't forget that when you aren't there, you AREN'T THERE.  I.e. If 
he was there and you weren't, don't assume that you know what was happening 
better than he did.   My first thought on reading your base note was that your
daughter WAS hungry no matter what her schedule with you is.  (My daughter eats
when she is hungry and sleeps when you is tried and NO WAY is she going to 
let you con her into accepting food when she's tired, or sleep when she's 
hungry.)

	Last, hang in there.  It's easy for me to say this stuff, but to be 
honest I still have problems with it from time to time.  Gary actually has 
probably logged more caretaking hours with Katie than I have. (I stayed home 
with her 8 weeks; he stayed home for 3 months.  On a day to day basis, he 
spends as much time or more with her than I do.  When he was laid off last fall,
he almost took over her care, since I was working longer hours and he was home.
Now he's back to work it's a 50/50 affair pretty much.) And I STILL have to 
remind myself that if it gets done, it doesn't matter how we got there as long 
as the kid has no bruises and the house is still standing. :-)  If Gary, an only 
child who never wanted kids (til our surprise happened) can take care of a child 
competantly and lovingly, (and if I haven't made it clear yet, he can and does)
anybody can.

Tracey

 


	

OK,

I'm ready to add some fire to this fat .... ooops wrong! :-)

Anyway ... first things first ... there ARE times when I consider myself
as babysitting and times when I'm being a father;  Generally speaking,
it's a state of mind, and depends on how I feel, what I am doing and
what I wanted to do during the period I do some child-minding.  Sometimes
when I look after the kids, partly because of tiredness or whatever, my
attitude is to basically mind the children and little more.  Moreover,
there are times when I feel rather guilty being the child minder than
good-old dad ... in part to my kids, in part to my wife, but also to me ...
because there are times when you feel if you'd taken a more active role
you'd have got more out of it yourself.

But that is not the same as not following my child's development through
to knowing the kind and level of care and feeding required at any time.
For some there are reasons this happens, for others there are excuses.
If anyone looks at the father's role as just babysitter then that is
an excuse and not a reason.  Father being in the Gulf, for example, is
a reason.

Unfortunately, what this all boils down to is sensitive communication
between husband and wife ...  It's much like the same communication or
lack of, that the infamous mother / mother-in-law child care methods
have caused over the years.  People don't speak so others will listen
and listen when others speak.

If the other parent hasn't followed little Johnny's development and
doesn't realise that he is now drinking from a cup, then you've got
to say so in a manner that does not attach any blame on the other
parent ... either spoken or implied.  The easiest way is to ensure
that the other parent is told as teh development happens.  Later,
the task is harder ... so rather than say "Johnny's been using a
cup for a month now" (with the implied ... where the h*** have you been?)
say "Johnny's really getting on well with a cup now ... he's hardly
spilling anything".  That way the focus is on Johnny and not the other
parent.

Anyway, there's my 2c.

Stuart

    
    I had the same feelings with our first baby. Then, I learnt -
    kids know what they want and husbands are not as dumb as they
    try to look (remember Bill Cosby Himself...). Now, I make any kid related 
    issue, OUR issue. When my husband takes the kids, I don't ask any 
    questions how it went. I figure if he could be an engineer, he could 
    take care of a kid. My mother didn't even finish high school and raised
    3 kids. 
    I don't want to be the parenting police around the house. I have to
    admit that I find some of my husband's approach revolutionary, but,
    you know, having two working brains around is better than one 
    (remember team work...).
    
    Eva.

    
    Golly, these notes sure do bring back memories!!!!
    
    I remember those days when it was of utmost critical importance that
    everything be just "perfect" (perfect -> my way!) ... me, the expert,
    RIGHT?!!!!
    
    Well, 'round about 6 months, I was tired, run ragged, Jim was
    frustrated ... and I finally learned to "let go" -- a diaper on
    backwards is not the end of the world (be thankful they don't fit
    up-side-down!) -- and what a relief to have a husband who WANTS to tend
    the baby, hand me a checkbook and leaves the porch light on  (what a
    pity I didn't trust him enough to enjoy this the first 6 months!).
    
    Juli's now 18 months old, healthy, happy, independent ... and when I
    think of all those "head-gaskets" I blew during the first 6 months! 
    For what? ...  She'd still be the same (carrots for breakfast doesn't
    seem to have affected her any! - Jim said "it's babyfood ... isn't it?").
                                                                           
    Dottie

    In response to Stuarts implied 'where the h*** have you been?'
    
    Yeah, but *WHERE* have 'you' been??
    
    That's probably my biggest peeve.  The rest of the stuff, I don't
    really care about, but I've never been able to understand how a parent
    (in this particular case, Dad) can just completely miss a large portion
    of development when they're home with the kid too.???  It baffles me to
    know end, and I'm quite sure that I've delivered a few of those
    
    He ALWAYS has mustard on his hotdogs!!  Lines, without any idea of how
    it could possibly still be unknown to anyone on earth (-:
    
    Perhaps you can offer some insight to this??  Now we end up joking
    about it (Well, dear, when you took that trip to Brazil (not that he
    went anywhere) last year, Jason toilet-trained himself), but I still
    find it completely baffling.  It used to be that I'd take it to heart
    "He must not care about our children if he didn't notice THAT!", but
    now I know it's the way he is - BUT WHY?!?
    
    Anyone care to comment?
    

Why ?  Well, I can give a little insight maybe ...  For our second child
I was with a different company where at that time my primary goal was doing
the best I could at my job because I was in a demanding job in a demanding
and at times very unrewarding company.  For the longest time, I didn't
realize the effect the job was having on me.  I was becoming more and
more detached from my family as I lived more and more in fear of my work
load, of keeping the boss happy (He was very Victorian and was known to make
life hell for employees who fell out of favour), of losing my job, of
the company surviving (this company was in the mining industry and times
were ROUGH.

I missed a lot of Hilary's development ... or at least was very detached
from it.  If I wasn't at work, I was home exhausted, and if not exhausted
then mentally, very detached from home and pre-occupied with other things.
The worst part was that it took a long time to recognize what was actually 
happening.

So, even if the other parent is "home" and there, s/he may not actually be
mentally totally there.

Some people too have a very hard time associating themselves with children.
Probably similar to the mothers who say that there is no way they want a
baby.


As to the implied "Where the h*** have you been?" ...  It is a perfectly
valid question ... but the risks of asking your partner in *that* way
are high.  So, what you have to do is to find a way of opening up the
communications, which have possibly broken down (not only was I missing
my child's development, I wasn't being particularly attentive to my wife's
needs either ... we weren't communicating very well).  And any questions
along the lines of "Where the h*** have you been" would be met with
defensive arguments and closed ears rather than a willingness to admit it.


Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    	Thanks for the insight .... outside pressures could definitely be
    the cause of most of our 'where the h*** have you been?' remarks. 
    Never really thought of that in the depth that you entered.
    
    ...there's NO way I want {another}  baby!! (-:
    
    
    THANKS!
    Patty

    Another possibility on the "missed" developmental stages, tastes
    and preferences, etc. is that the child behaves differently when
    s/he's alone with one parent or the other.  Especially if one
    parent has been gone more than the other, the child may revert to
    an earlier behavior with that parent -- I suppose seeking
    reassurance they're still loved.  Or it may just be a personality
    difference, or a matter of habit. 
    
    For instance, David "always" has oatmeal with applesauce in it for
    breakfast -- at the sitter's, or when Mama's feeding him.  When
    Daddy's giving him breakfast on Saturday, he wants yogurt or
    cottage cheese.  If Mama tries to give him cottage cheese on a
    weekday, he throws it on the floor.
    
    He doesn't use a bottle at the sitter's, but still uses one at
    home. 
    
    He won't let me feed him anything.  He'll go hungry rather than
    take anything from a spoon I offer him.  But he'll sit there and
    open his mouth like a little bird to let Daddy spoon it in.  
    
    --bonnie

Good point Bonnie ...

Regression seem sto sometimes be the order of the day when one or the other
parent is around.  When potty training, one daughter would gladly fetch panties
if mummy was helping, but if daddy was doing it she'd fetch a diaper!  I can
think of other exapmples too.

Stuart

    I see two points:
    
 1. The father does the job wrong, probably through lack of experience,
    possibly through lack of interest in learning it right. The solution is
    to teach him or put up with it.
    
 2. The mother has a _preference_ for doing a job a certain way, but
    elevates this preference to the level of absolute right or wrong,
    probably based on the fact that she is the prime care-giver and so
    may -- even unconsciously -- invest in her standards a level of
    absoluteness that they do not merit. The solution is to understand that
    people do things differently and that this does not necessarily 
    mean that one way is right and the other wrong
    
    
    Kit

    I feel the need to add my comments here, in a line...
    
    	The feelings don't seem to get any different as they get older!
    
    In a nutshell, I am involved in an organization.  This past Saturday
    night I stayed overnight at the hotel where the function was held, due
    to the fact it was going to be a late night.  
    
    Before I left I had prepared several casserole type meals, and left
    them fully cooked in the fridge, I also had stocked up on deli meats
    for sandwiches (you know the type balongna...for dad! ham and roast
    beef and of course lots of sliced cheeses)  Now keep in mind I was gone
    LESS than 24 hours, noon Saturday to noon Sunday.  
    
    When I got home I discovered they had survived!  (AJ is 4, dad just
    ACTS like he's 4 sometimes)  I found my husband vacuming, a real
    strange site for my chauvanist husband, and he had even dusted, cleaned
    the kitchen, manged to keep the cats fed and what did they eat you ask?
    They shared a one pound ham steak and a can of roast beef hash for
    supper on Satuday, several PB&J sandwiches, cereal for breakfast and
    what seemed like gallons of OJ and milk!  But what was more important,
    they had some serious one on one time together, shared a rented movie,
    went to the playground and let AJ ride his new bike with the training
    wheels, and as it was put to me had lots of "men talk".  More
    important, as I see it, they missed me and I missed them and it was
    great to get home!!
    
    I too was one of those who felt like when I went out I was leaving AJ
    with a babysitter, I wouldn't leave until AJ had been bathed, fed had
    his medicines and I felt all my husband had to do was just watch out
    form him until bedtime.  I blamed my husband the time I was gone and AJ
    dropped a soda can on his toe, causing a bruise, and later realized it
    probably would have happened anyway.  Or if I came home and found a wet
    diaper, feeling he'd neglected to change it, and realizing it had
    probably just happened. 
    
    I guess you just have to step back a little, and go with the flow of
    things!  You know SH**'s going to happen!!
    
    Lyn