Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Patty, I don't consider myself an expert on this subject, but I do have
    a couple of things to say.
    
    My nephew (age 7, second grade) was very upset about going back to
    school this year.  He has attention deficit disorder (ADD).  Anyway, I
    think the reason he was so upset about going back is because he feels
    different from the other kids.  Also, the other kids teased him a bit. 
    Do you think your son is having trouble getting along with his peers
    and this is the reason why he doesn't want to go (rather than the
    boredom, etc.)?
    
    Anyway, my nephew is now very happy in school and my sister brings him
    to some type of occupational therapist who teaches him
    social/interactive skills.  Maybe something like this will work.
    
    Nancy

    I am having the same problem with my son who will be 5 in February.
    He has started his crying fits and complaining he doesn't feel well on
    the mornings we have to go to school.  His pre-kindergarten class is in
    the same school he was in last year and he has the same teacher and
    some of the kids are the same.  When I ask him why he pulls this stuff
    every Tuesday and Thursday (class from 8:30 - 12:15) he tells me he is
    bored.  I did find that on the days when he knows there is no school
    and he is going to stay at the day care, he doesn't give me a problem. 
    I think what he hates most about school is the rules and the structured
    activities like learning his alphabet, numbers, etc., whereas in the 
    day care it is structured but it's a different kind of structure
    (reading books, coloring, outdoor play, etc.).  
    
    When he pulls these stunts, we ask him what he wants to be when he
    grows up and he tells us and our reply back is "If you want to be
    _________ then you need to go to school to learn all there is to know
    in order to become what you want.  This seems to have worked for us, he
    stops his crying and when I get home at night, he is so excited and
    tells me all about his day.  An I know he is learning something,
    because now he will pick up the newspaper and spell each word and ask
    me what they mean.  He really wants to start learning how to read.
    
    I'd be interested in knowing what school you son goes to and what
    teacher he has.  You can send me a mail message to TUNER::CLEMENT or
    phone me at DTN 264-4465.
    
    Regards,
     

    Patty,
    
    I don't know much about this but, my niece has ADD.  At five years old
    she practically couldn't put a sentence together because her mind would
    jump to another thought and she'd be unable to hold a thought very
    well.  I remember many frustrating times I'd try to hold a short simple 
    conversation with her like "what game is that?" and she'd look at me
    and reply "where's aunt rosie?".  She really didn't know how to listen
    or concentrate on anything.  They finally discovered that it was ADD. 
    She now goes to an occupational therapist.  The results were really
    amazing.  I saw the difference in her within a matter of months!  She
    would think before she spoke.  (One aside, because of her
    attention/concentration problem, her motor skills were behind and she
    was about 1 1/2 years behind where she should have been development
    wise).  They worked with her motors skills and I mean she's doing very
    well now.  She'll be 7 in a week.  It's worth checking into the
    possibility of ADD.  By brother in law and sister in law were so glad
    they did.
    
    I can't imagine the frustration when you feel lost when other kids can do
    things well and do them for a relatively long time and having no ability
    to do it yourself no matter how much you may want to.  
    
    Good luck, I hope you can zero in on the problem soon.
    

	I would echo the suggestions to check the possibilty of ADD.  But from 
my uninformed layperson's point of view it would seem to me that he CAN 
concentrate (you gave some examples yourself)  he just doesn't.  

	Perhaps he's just the kind of kid that has a different learning style. 
You said he does well at daycare with the more physical stuff and that he 
enjoyed (at least for a while) playing cards as a way to work on numbers.
You might want to check into the Montessori schools. I understand that they use 
a lot of movement in learning.  Some people just do better when learning 
kinetically.  Another possibility is a Waldorf school.  I understand they 
advocate waiting to develop reading skills until quite a bit later than most 
schools. and concentrate on learning to think and explore mentally.  (I sure 
I've mangled what they do horribly in my description but I can point you to two
sources of information on Waldorf: 1) Note 35 in this conference has information
on Waldorf Education 2) Neil Faiman (one of our moderators :-) ) has a child in
a Waldorf School  and is quite an advocate for them (to the point that I am
considering looking for a Waldorf School here when the time come for Katie to 
start school.) 

Tracey

A long repetition of previous advice.

I also recommend that he at least be evaluated for an attention deficit (AD) 
problem.  Your town may have some program attached to the elementary schools, 
or your pediatrician may be able to recommend a source, or you can look in the 
learning disabilities notesfile (asabet::learning_disabilities) for evaluation 
sources.

The experience that I speak from is that my daughter has an attention deficit 
problem, so I have my own observation, plus I have done some reading on the 
subject.

re: .4

>	I would echo the suggestions to check the possibilty of ADD.  But from 
>my uninformed layperson's point of view it would seem to me that he CAN 
>concentrate (you gave some examples yourself)  he just doesn't.  

re: .0

>    he can sit for a VERY long time
>    concentrating very hard on something and do very well at it, without
>    being distracted,  . . . he is
>    COMPLETELY engrossed by some television shows, to the point that you
>    could remove all the furniture in the room, and as long as the T.V. was
>    still on, he'd never know you were in the room.  So he CAN concentrate
>    with AMAZING ability

The ability to concentrate sometimes is _not_ an indication that there is no 
AD problem.  There is a video game in the waiting room of the learning 
disorders unit of a major hospital.  Some kids with _serious_ AD and 
hyperactivity problems can concentrate totally on that video game.  But if the 
activity doesn't "grab" them, they lack the ability to focus their attention 
on their own.
	
I don't like to diagnose over the net, but there are many things about your 
sons behavior pattern that are typical of children with AD problems.  To point 
out a few:

>    When he's not at school, he's at a home
>    daycare with his younger brother, and 2-3 other younger kids.  I also
>    wonder if part of the problem may be that he is only interacting with
>    much younger kids outside of school, and would prefer to act like a 3
>    year old than a 5 year old (sometimes displayed in other behaviors).
    
AD is defined in terms of "age appropriateness".  That is, an attention span 
that is appropriate for a three year old is not appropriate for a five year 
old.  So if he does have and AD problem, he may do very well interacting with 
younger kids, in a setting that is designed for younger kids, and where the 
activities are either unstructured, or are structured for kids with the 
attention span typical of their age, and in which his different attention span 
doesn't "stick out".
	
>    When he was switched to pre-K, he was ECSTATIC!!  He LOVED
>    his new teacher and the new class . . .
>    Now over the past few school-weeks, all of his old feelings about
>    school are coming back, but much more intensely negative.  

AD kid often do well in new settings for a period of time, because the 
"newness" keeps their interest.  But then as the newness wears 	off, the 
distractions -- like being tired, hot -- start to affect them.

>    He is easily bored with writing and/or
>    identifying letters/numbers, but he doesn't KNOW them.  He tries for a
>    few minutes (does pretty well), gets bored, and then just doesn't even
>    try anymore.  . . . If you MAKE him think about it, he'll tell you.

AD kids often APPEAR to be bored, when the real problem is that they they 
simply can't focus their attention.  When you MAKE him think about it, you may 
just be helping him to do that which he can't do himself.

>    . . . to the point of aggressive/dangerous behavior.

This is an almost word for word description of one (of several) symptom of AD 
problems.  Even if they understand the potential consequences of their 
actions, they lack the ability to restrain themselves.

>    there is
>    something WRONG and we haven't been able to put our finger on it, and
>    he isn't able to explain/identify it, except to know that it's at
>    school.

If there is an AD problem, a school setting is where it is most likely to 
manifest itself.  That's where concentration is required.  That's where, 
it's most difficult to limit distractions.  Our daughter takes medication
(ritalin), but only on school days.

>    If he can't get his socks on, he'll scream and throw them down and
>    start crying and stomp out of the room.  

One of the things that has been very hard for us to deal with is the fact that 
our daughter has major explosions -- goes completely out of control, becomes 
totally irrational, etc. over (to us) absolutely trivial incidents.  If I 
remember correctly, the same mechanism that controls the focusing of attention 
span also controls the ability to control behavior.

>    Patty who has the "What have I done to my Child??" Blues....

If it IS an AD problem, there is NOTHING that you did.  As far as research 
knows now, it's physiological, not psychological.  But one thing I would 
caution you about is to understand that it may be something he CAN'T do -- as 
opposed to something he WON'T do.  Focus on the behavior, don't apply value 
judgments:

>    Even if you get
>    him to look at it, he just DOESN'T CARE.  He KNOWS that it's an H, but
>    he could care less to tell you that.  

He may care very deeply.  He just can't do it.  I don't mean to lecture to you.
I just know how guilty I felt when I thought that my daughter wasn't trying 
very hard to learn her spelling words or her multiplication tables when in 
fact she was probably trying a hell of a lot harder than most kids in her class.

Please feel free to contact me off line.

Clay

Tracey beat me to it ...

My own inclinations would be to wonder why a child in a pre-kindergarten 
needs to be learning to write and identify letters and numbers.  In our
school, kindergarteners color, play, learn songs, listen to stories, etc.

I guess if your son wonders why he has to do all this stuff, I sympathize
with him.

	-Neil

    Just from your base note, your son sounds a lot like my Steven,
    who doesn't suffer from any kind of learning disability.  He just
    doesn't handle pressure well.
    
    And I found out from stepping back and listening to him that I put
    a lot more pressure on him to behave well all the time than I
    thought I did.  I was always supportive of his artistic endeavors,
    etc., so I didn't realize how often I was landing on him for
    basically just being -- even wiggling too much while he was
    sitting.  
    
    But a few months ago I realized that compared to most kids his
    age, he's an absolute angel.  Kat was always such a quiet loner,
    although sociable, (like her mother) that I wasn't prepared to
    deal with a real extrovert who isn't happy unless there's another
    person around.  He doesn't even like SLEEPING alone.  So a lot of
    the feedback I was giving him was based on a gut reaction of not
    liking his personality style.  I was trying to turn him into a
    quiet introvert.
    
    A regular but not rigid schedule helped provide some structure
    within which he could move more freely. I try to make sure he has
    more unstructured time where he doesn't have to meet anybody's
    expectations, especially mine.  Neil and I each try to spend some
    time alone with him, without any of the other kids or the other
    parent around. 
    
    He might need a different approach to learning.  For instance, an
    extroverted child usually likes to work in groups doing team
    projects; if his class and teacher are set up to favor the
    work-alone style, he might feel very uncomfortable and implicitly
    criticized.  A child who prefers structure, like my eldest, is
    often distracted to the point of boredom in an open-concept
    classroom -- or vice versa.
    
    Perhaps he's not ready yet.  I  know with all the emphasis on
    early reading and so on, US society assumes a kid starting school
    should already know this stuff, but not everybody is.  Maybe he
    just needs some time off to try again later.
    
    Do members of your family read and write at home?  If he doesn't
    see people around him using words and numbers regularly, he quite
    likely won't see any reason why he should learn it.
    
    Steven was helped by getting into an individual athletic activity
    (gymnastics, in his case, but karate and swimming are other good
    ones, and I'm sure the other noters will have ideas) that helps
    him burn off energy, learn how to control his body, and feel good
    about something he can do.  As he learns to do more with his body,
    he seems to be less out of control emotionally.  
    
    The bouts of lack of control are worse when he's in the middle of
    a growth spurt or hasn't had enough sleep.
    
    I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of a learning
    disorder, and having him evaluated would be a reasonable step.  If
    it is a learning disability like ADD (another possibility is a
    seizure disorder; petit mal seizures lasting fractions of a second
    can cause a child to lose concentration and control) it should be
    treated before it compounds itself into a negative self-image.
    
    But I wouldn't push it, either.
    
    --bonnie

    You are entitled to a special education evaluation of your child.
    
    Contact the special needs department of your school and tell them
    you want an assessment.
    
    The school will get back to you and tell you that you have the
    right to a pre-assessment meeting.  Go to the meeting and tell
    them what you want assessed (i.e. why does he hate school, why
    doesn't he pay attention, etc.)
    
    You should get the assessment back in a few weeks.
    
    At that time the school should be able to tell you precisely what
    they've discovered and what steps they will take to help.  For
    example, they might provide some sore of occupational therapy
    as other noters have mentioned.
    
    If you are *not* satisfied with the school's assessment - if you
    don't understand it or don't believe it - you are then entitled
    to an independent evaluation.  At the indepenedent evaluation
    you get to choose where you want to take your child (for example,
    I've had my son into Children's Hospital in Boston where they've
    given him a full day of tests ranging from psycho-neurological tests
    to simple tests of academic skills).
    
    Good luck.  It's great that you have recognized the signs of your
    child hating school so early.  Some kids get through the early
    grades and don't display their lack of interest in school until
    they're in later grades, when there's less time left to help them.
    
    --dick
    

    Hi,
    
    THANKS so much for all the replies!!!  It's helped a lot for me
    emotionally and also knowing that there is some help available.  The
    school he's in now mostly focuses on blaming someone rather than trying
    to really FIX the problem.
    
    I am going to have him tested to see if something is wrong.  I think
    that I will probably go after both his doctor AND the public school at
    the same time so that we can be SURE that we get lots of testing and
    hopefully uncover whatever (if!) the problem is.  
    
    In the meantime, and understanding a little more about ADD, we are
    working with him 1 on 1 so that we can try to be more helpful to him
    and to whoever ends up testing him.  At the advice of one of the notes
    here (Steven's mom - sorry!), I have taken a step back and tried to
    watch how *I* behave with him, and whether it may just be my
    perception.  It seems to be mixed in that a) I do tend to be a bit hard
    on him at times, and b) he does tend to act immature for his age.  Over
    the past couple days, I've tried to treat him - emotionally- the same
    as I would treat my almost-3 year old, and the difference has been
    ASTOUNDING!!  We've dropped the whole alphabet/number thing for a
    while, but otherwise, intellectually, we've still be treating him like
    he's 5, but when it comes time to get ready or during playtime, we give
    him the same kind of space/freedom/forewarning that we give his younger
    brother, and he seems to be responding well.  Which sort of leans me
    toward the possibility that he may have ADD. ... or maybe I'm just
    coming down on him too hard, and he's appreciating the letup.  Hmmm.
    
    But now the plot thickens ..... my husband has completely shut off, and
    will barely even discuss the topic.  He is convinced that his son is
    fine and that there's no problem at all except that he's WITH little
    kids, so he's going to ACT like a little kid.  I brought home the
    basenote and all the replies, and he wasn't even interested enough to
    want to read them.  A  "What's this all about? The kid's fine!"
    attitude.  That's the attitude that we took last year, and it's only
    gotten worse, not better.  Have any of you had any experience with
    this?  I'm not looking to put a label on my son, and maybe (HOPEFULLY!)
    there is nothing wrong with him, but I'm concerned that if he senses
    the/any tension around the subject that it will only add to the
    negativism that Christopher already feels about school (and himself!).
    I've told my husband that I am going to have Christopher tested, just
    to be sure.  He is not supporting the decision, but probably won't
    fight me on it.  For Christopher's sake, I think we NEED hubby to be
    supportive.  Any ideas on how to do this??  Is this just a normal
    denial reaction that will fade with time?  Also, since I'm the one that
    brings Christopher to school, he doesn't see the behavior as much as I
    do, so that might be part of it.
    
    And .... as a reply to the note (by Neil??) "If your kid is wondering
    why he needs to know all this stuff, I sympathize with him" ... well,
    maybe to a point.  But the problem is that he's almost 6, and he does
    not know his alphabet and he does not know his numbers, and he's
    SUPPOSED to start 1st grade in the fall, but probably won't pass the
    readiness tests, which means he's already a year behind right now.
    A year may not be so bad to deal with, but for HIS sake, I want to
    minimize how many years he is behind other children.  *I* really don't
    care if he doesn't learn to read till he's 12, but the fact of the
    matter is that if he doesn't, he's going to be WAY behind the rest of
    his peers, and the social pressures of being much older than your
    classmates are pretty hefty.  It's something that we'd really like to
    avoid.
    
    We're (well, I am!) going to check into the Waldorf and Montesorri
    schools.  I never realized that that was what they were for ... I
    always thought they were for kids that were severely handicapped.
    Christopher definitely has a unique learning style, and does learn much
    better if he can be involved with whatever he's learning, and learns
    MUCH better in a group.  I guess we've always taught him that way too,
    and have always tried to take something new that he's learning and
    relate it to something that he already knows.  He's really a very smart
    kid - he's just not responding to what's going on right now.  And, for
    what it's worth, I've always been in support of those who march to a
    different drummer.  
    
    Thank you so much for all your help and support -- it's meant SO much
    to me and Christopher - I'm glad I came here with our questions!
    
    Patty
    

    Here's Steven's mom again.
    
    Neil and I don't have quite the degree of disagreement that you
    report with your husband, but Neil never was as concerned about
    Steven's behavior as I was.  I attribute some of it to sex-role
    conditioning:  behavior I don't see as acceptable for anybody he
    sees as okay for boys.  I know he wouldn't have put up with this
    from Kat. And I suspect it's related to why girls often do better
    in school than boys -- they're supposed to be more aqueiscent. 
    Boys are supposed to be more rebellious.  I was convinced that
    Steven was going to have all kinds of trouble in school, but so
    far [halfway through first grade] there have only been a couple of
    minor incidents.  
    
    In general I hold that if the parents have a gut feeling that
    something is wrong, they're usually right, so if you really think
    there's a problem, the testing is the right thing to do.  But it's
    possible that in this case your husband has a more accurate take
    on the situation simply because he's a bit more detached.  Would
    it be possible for him to take Christopher to school for a while
    so he can see the behavior you're talking about?  
    
    It's been my experience that when a five-year-old [with or without
    learning disabilities] complains specifically about hating school,
    it's often because he or she doesn't like something about the
    people or procedure -- not getting along with the teacher, for
    instance, or being bullied by bigger kids at playtime -- rather
    than anything specific to learning.  His school does not sound
    like a particularly supportive or pleasant place to be, and if
    their teaching style doesn't match his learning style, it could be
    creating a problem that wouldn't exist in another context. 
    
    It does sound like Christopher might be emotionally young for his
    age, but that's not a learning disability.  But even if he does
    wind up needing an extra year, it's not an end to his chances of
    growing  up to be president :)  Kat's a  year older than her
    classmates -- I never thought of it as behind -- because we moved
    to New Hampshire after the New York cutoff date but before the NH
    cutoff.  She's now a straight-A student, popular and happy, and
    going out with a guy who's also a year older than his classmates. 
    It's pretty common in the Nashua school system.
    
    --bonnie

Some more free advice:

    Please...  Relax.  Relax.  Relax.  

    I side with your husband.  There is nothing wrong with your son.  He's 
    probably gifted just like every other kid is.  But, from what you've 
    said, if I were 5-1\2, I know I would hate going to the school that your 
    son is going to.  Think about it.  Kids learn by playing, doing, and 
    being involved.  I encourage you to look for a school that will let him 
    relax and have fun, and just discover the joy of learning.  It would 
    make all the difference.

    As for reading, kids will learn to read if they are read to a lot and, 
    especially, if they like what is being read.  Topic 20, I think, has 
    some recommend books.  Read only books he wants to hear.

 I thought that Clay, Neil, and bonnie gave quite thoughtful advice in entries
 .5 - .7 (or whatever).  The fact that they completely contradicted each other
 just shows that these are tough questions to judge, particularly over the
 net.
 
 I don't know whether your degree of worry shows anything about the boy, but
 it is worth attention anyway.  I think you should seek an assessment through
 your school system.  You will all benefit even if the result comes back
 "Normal!"  Your concern is entirely appropriate, whatever the outcome, and if
 there is a problem, the sooner you know about it, the better.  Maybe you can
 get your husband to support the assessment if he views it more as a response
 to your worry than to a problem in the kid.
 
 Different kids do prosper in different learning environments, and perhaps
 something like Montesorri or Waldorf would be beneficial; they are certainly
 not targeted at handicapped kids.  I will also note that around here (metrowest
 Boston) it has been very fashionable in recent years for the most competative
 parents to conspire to have their kid be a year older than most others in
 their class, on the theory that they will do better and gain more self
 confidence.  Of course, it is hard to arrange a class where every kid is older
 than average, though they do manage something similar at Lake Woebegone.
 
 		- Bruce

    Well, this hasn't been a whole lot of fun so far .... the Nashua Public
    Schools refuse to test kids until they're at least 6 years old, and
    only starting in Sept.  They also only test for very broad learning
    disabilities, and said that if there was something like an attention
    span problem, that they probably wouldn't catch it (They'll test for
    hearing, sight, dyslexia, retardation etc)
    
    I've repeatedly tried to get in touch with his Dr. to have him tested
    there, and have not had any of my calls returned. (I'm going to keep
    trying though...)
    
    In the meantime, we looked into the possibility of switching him to the
    public kindergarten in hopes that things would smooth out for him, and
    if he really _was_ tired, it's a shorter day, so should've helped
    alleviate some of that for him.  Come to find out that Nashua does not
    bus Kindergarten children at all, and they also don't provide any type
    of 'after-school' activities/babysitting or anything.  If the
    kindergarten classes run from 8:15-10:50   and 11:30 - 2:05  *HOW* do
    working parents get their kids to school and back???!!!?  It's beyond
    me.  Anyway, we decided that we would try to work out something, and
    try to get him into the public school anyway.  THEN we found out that
    his school is not the school that's a mile from our house, right
    between our house and the babysitters, but it's the school that's
    downtown, 3 miles from our house, and 7 mi. from the sitters.  Do other
    people run into these types of problems?????
    
    We finally decided to just try to talk to Christopher some more.  When
    we explained what his options were, he suddenly decided that his
    current school wasn't so bad - and he's been quite happy there since
    then.  I think I've been had.
    
    BTW - This is the same kid who just magically trained himself from
    bedwetting - I wonder if the 2 were related?
    
    The good news is that he seems thrilled again to be there.  HOPEFULLY
    this will last.  I'd rather not have to explain all this again every
    month or so.
    
    Our next question is what to do in the fall.  We think that
    scholastically he could handle 1st grade, and emotionally he seems like
    he's about the same as the other kids.  We'll have him evaluated for a
    recommendation for 1st grade or Readiness, but what we're wondering is;
    
    How difficult is it (based on your experience) to take a kid that's not
    used to going to school all day or every day, and put them in a
    situation where they do go every day, all day ??  The public school
    runs 1 break, lunch and a recess during the day (6 hours), so it's never 
    more than a couple hours before he can have a break.  Do you think
    that's too much all of a sudden?  He's used to being at the babysitters
    all day that he's not in school, so it's not a problem of being away
    from home.  Also, Readiness is the same length/type school day, so if
    this was too much, it would mean Kindergarten (and I STILL haven't
    figured out how someone could work that out!).  Right now I think it
    would be a struggle for him, but September is a long way off .... and
    transportation for Kindergarten is a major problem!  He'll be 6 in May.
    
    Any advice/experiences would be greatly appreciated!!!
    
    Thanks!
    Patty
    
    P.S. as far as the Waldorf school goes ... I could send him to UNH for
    less than that!  YIKES!!!

    The Nashua Public School's policy is illegal.
    
    PL 94-142 requires all schools in this country to identify, locate
    and evaluate children with special needs from the age of 5 to 21.
    In 1991 (which is now) the law has expanded to require inclusion
    of children at the age of 3.
    
    I suggest you put into writing what you want from the public school.
              ----------------------------------
    Dear Nashua Public Schools:
    
    I am afraid my 5-1/2 year old son may have learning disabilities.
    I would like him to have a comprehensive CORE evalauation that would
    include evaluation for specific learning disabilities, attention
    defecit, speech and language, psychoneurological testing and other
    tests that will assure we understand any special education or related
    services he may need.
    _______________________________________________________________
    If the school will not do the testing, then ask them what you must
    do to get a hearing to require the testing.
    
    If the school's testing is inadequate in your view, you may, after
    they test, get an independent evaluation at their expense.
    
    If testing shows your child needs special education then, by law,
    the school MUST provide you with transportation (even though this
    transportation is not provided to other children his age -
    educationally handicapped children are entitled to this.  Indeed,
    your child will have extra legal benefits if he is designated
    as educationally handicapped that extend beyond transportation.)
    
    Because educationally handicapped children have added legal benefits,
    that create additional costs, schools are often inclined to
    try to ignore parents and get away with whatever they can get
    away with.  You will need to become an advocate for your child's
    needs with the school system.
    
    I suggest you contact the Mass Federation of Children with
    Special Needs (800- 331-0688) or (413) 562-3691 and ask them how
    you can learn more about the New Hampshire Special Education rules.
    
    Also, Buffy Dewey (508) 263-7993, has had a good deal of experience
    with the New Hampshire schools and may know of other NH resources
    available to you.  Tell her Dick Amann suggested her as a resource.