Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I would suggest that you go to the library and this will give you an
    opportunity to review the material yourself to see if it is palatable.
    
    Genna (currently 3) has been exposed to Christianity since she was an
    infant.  We have regularly attended church, read scripture and have
    regular prayer.  Genna has asked me will she ever get to meet God and
    Jesus, and I told her that when she died she will meet God and Jesus
    and live in heaven with them (She wanted to know if she'd have her own
    bed and room).  I think that this kind of information is best heard
    from the parent and not from a book.  
    
    Lastly you might want to pray, as God will show you what should be
    done.
    
    (I'm sure he'll be glad to hear from you as well :')) 
    
    
    
    Peace, and I hope you get what you need,
    
    Mike

    You might also look for a local UU church that has a program
    for children. UU tends to be a good place for people who are
    searching among the varieties of religous experience.
    
    Bonnie

    I'm sure that at some point I too will be faced with this dilemma.  My
    husband is christian and I am Jewish.  Neither one of us is very
    religious.  We plan on exposing our child to both religions.  However,
    we too take the less religous approach to things like dying.
    
    While I don't know the names of any books, I do know they exist.  There
    are books that explain to kids about dying without touching on any
    religious information at all.  You probably just need to look around
    some of the larger bookstores or library.
    
    By the way, if you do find a good book, please put the name of it in
    here.  
    
    Thanks.
    
    Nancy

    There has been a note about books on dying for kids in this file
    before I think.
    
    Two that I can recall are "Polar Express" and one about a mouse?
    that befriends an old shrew? and helps her out and then is there
    when she dies.
    
    Bonnie

Perhaps I read you incorrectly, but I think that you are mixing issues.

One issue is the issue of death.  The other issue is the issue of religion.
I think that both issues are important.  If we end up with two distinct 
strings of notes, I will create a new topic.  

If you are looking to religion to resolve your son's desire to avoid death, 
I think you may just be trading one problem for another (set of) problem(s).

Until a certain age, kids believe that their parents are infallible.  They can 
understand that you run out of ice cream, but they know that you (the parent) 
_can_ get some more.  They might be able to understand that _you_ don't control 
whether or not they will die, not, but they may (in fact probably) believe 
that you can take them to someone who does, sort of like taking them to the 
doctor when he's sick.

If your son finds out "who has the controls", then he may start wanting "who"
to ensure him that he will not die.  If you don't deliver "who", your son may 
very well interpret this as if he is sick, but you are refusing to take him to 
a doctor.  

If that's what he wants, there is no way, short of an out and out lie, to it 
to him.  NO religion that I know of teaches that we will not experience 
physical death.  Most teach, as .1 has, that there is something pleasant on 
the other side of death.

Also, if your son starts learning religious concepts, be prepared to discuss 
your own beliefs.  If your somewhat ambivalent, that may be difficult.

I am NOT saying that teaching religion isn't important, or that it can't have 
an important, perhaps even critical, role in dealing with the concept of 
death.  I am saying that religion is a much, much, broader subject.

re: .2

UU?  Universalist Unitarian (or vice-versa)?  Remember the base noter (and 
many other noters) isn't particularly religious, and may not be familiar with 
the acronyms.

Clay

    sorry clay
    
    unitarian universalist it is.
    
    (i'm an episcopalian, but have a lot of uu friends and I forgot)
    
    bonnie

Clay,

The base noter did say the little one wanted to get at the
controller to the grandfather.

I lead a note discussing since we were dealing with the
possibility of my nephew seeing his grandma die of cancer (thank
God, mom is still alive and doing as well as we can see). We
found several books in the children's section that deals with
death. One in particular is about a leaf and it's life cycle.

I am religious and that seems to make my job a little easier.

I hope that you will find the right answers.

cal

    A good book on this subject is TALKING TO YOUR CHILD ABOUT GOD by
    David Heller.
    
    Also, when my mother died, I used the butterfly analogy to explain
    death to my then-three-year-old daughter.  You know, the cocoon to
    caterpiller to butterfly metamorphisis idea -- this seemed to help
    a lot, as she was full of lots of questions and fears, especially
    around MY dying.
    
    "Organized" religion may not be the answer for you in this regard, but
    it does help children understand some hard concepts (such as dying).
    
    Regards,
    
    Jeanne
    

    This is a difficult and painful stage that kids go through, but
    they do go through it whether they're religious or not.  As Clay
    pointed out, he is eventually going to die just like all the rest
    of us.  Most kids figure that out some time between 5 and 7 or so.  
    
    They will cope with the crisis differently depending on whether
    they've been raised to think life will go on after physical death,
    to think "This is all there is," or with some other set of
    religious beliefs, but the basic crisis will be there no matter
    what. 
    
    I can speak from personal experience as this is when my mother
    started religious involvement for us, when I went through this
    crisis.  All I got from it was a vague concept that if I was very
    very good and did whatever my parents and my teacher told me,
    maybe God wouldn't punish me by killing me.  I'm not saying this
    is what my parents or my religious instructors told me.  It's just
    how my seven-year-old mind interpreted it.  I went through another
    later crisis realizing that I was going to die no matter how good
    I was, and that religion is for living, not for dying.  I believe
    in an afterlife but that's for the future.  For now, I have to
    live the life I have here, and live it as well as I can -- but
    that's another issue.
    
    --bonnie

    Also see PARENTING_V2, topics 1496 (13 replies) on "what is a soul?"
    and 1501 (37 replies) on "Separation of Church and Child."  Both
    include discussions about explaining death to a child, and the latter
    is *not* just atheist noters reinforcing each other!!  Everyone got in
    on that discussion - traditionally religious, non-traditionally
    spiritual, agnostics, etc.
    
    Leslie

    I hope this isn't too off the track of this note..... Lots of people
    who say that they are not particularly religious but have small
    children seem to be thinking of beginning to systematically expose
    their children to a particular religion - even when they're not sure
    what that one will be.  I can understand some reasons for this: it
    provides a ready-made framework for the teaching of morality, often
    offers a cultural context,  helps explain the inexplicable, etc. 
    
    Still, this seems such a utilitarian use of religion, a kind of
    condescenion toward the depth and power of real religious feeling.
    Equally strange to me is the view that a person doesn't believe in any
    particular religion, but has some generalized warm fuzzies about there
    being some sort of God overseeing everything.
    
    I speak as one with no religious feeling, who believes that on balance
    religion causes considerably more harm than good, and that the welter
    of religions is solid evidence that no omniscient and omnipresent god
    is able or willing to reveal him or herself.  If I truly believed in a
    religion, I would want my children to believe as well. Otherwise, I'd
    rather work through the utilitarian by-products of religion outside
    that context (i.e., how to deal with death).
    
    Kit
    in, say, a God who is creator

    Another book that deals with dying:  The Fall of Freddie The Leaf, by
    Leo Buscaglia. 
    
    

re:                       <<< Note 588.11 by CLUSTA::BINNS >>>

<<    I hope this isn't too off the track of this note..... 

   I do not believe so..

<<    ...  If I truly believed in a religion, I would want my children
<<    to believe as well. ... 

   Therein lies, I believe, a very important issue.  It is much easier
   and more credible to teach that which you believe in, not simply
   that which you believe is a good idea to know about.  I believe
   this is an extension of the "do as I say, not as I do" theory -
   that kids will watch our actions more than listen to our words to
   learn by.
   
   - Tom

    
    Haven't had a chance to read all the responses ... but I WILL!, as this
    is an interesting topic for me, too.
    
    Jim, his brother and mother were all raised in a very, very strict
    Mormon upbringing.  Consequently, they are all three turned off from
    religion ... his mother and brother are now atheists and Jim is "could
    be and maybe isn't, but not sure, so I won't deny ..." (and doesn't
    practice any religion).
    
    I was raised in a very UNdemanding protestant faith, so although I
    don't attend church as "regularly" as I should, I do attend church. 
    Jim and I agreed to expose JA to a "liberal" religion (Congregational)
    and then let her decide which direction she wants to go when old enough
    to decide (teenager).  So I take responsibility for JA's religion
    (Jim did participate in her Christening at 3 months, but probably won't
    take any responsibility in her religion -- just support).
    
    This seems to work very well for all involved ... us, our familieSSS,
    her godparents, etc.
    
    When Jim's grandmother passed away (just a couple of days before this
    Christmas!), his little 7 year old sister was very affected by this.
    Since her parents don't practice any religion, she, too, was very hurt
    and confused by the thought that a life has now terminated forever.
    While on the phone talking with Jim's Dad, Catherine picked up an
    extension phone and said "Dottie, Grandma died ... she's gone forever
    now ..." and started bawling her eyes out.  I didn't know what to say
    (knowing his family does NOT practice a religion), so all I said was
    "Honey, I know ... but remember that Grandma was quite sick and she's
    not in pain anymore, but even more important than that she's where her
    heart is ... with Grandpa ... wherever Grandpa is, Grandma is there
    with him ...".  Catherine calmed down and Bill thanked me for 
    "the help".
    
    Death is very painful and difficult for a child to understand ... I
    just try to find some good in it without making any religious-like
    statements ... especially to anyone who doesn't practice a faith.
    
    I guess I'm trying to say that love and compassion AND HOPE exists 
    OUTSIDE of religion, too.
    
    Dottie
               

    Hi, another good book for children on dying is Nana Upstairs, Nana
    Downstairs (sorry, I don't know the author's name off hand).  I bought
    the book almost 3 yrs ago when my Nana died and my, then, almost 3-1/2
    year old daughter was asking me all sorts of questions - the book
    seemed to help a great deal.
    
    

    Just another opinion:  When my own daughter went through this stage
    at 3, I probed a bit to find out just what her fear was.  Her fear
    was that she wouldn't see Daddy and Mommy and her friends.  She was
    also unsure of who would take care of her.  She didn't realize that
    she wouldn't need someone to feed her, etc.
    
    I didn't really have a good answer for her -- just assurance
    that death was just a new experience and that God would take care
    of her.  We're not religious, but she knows about God from Christmas
    discussions and occasional visits to Grammie's church.
    
    This helped her enough so that she doesn't dwell on the subject
    anymore.
    
    I read somewhere that children don't really understand death because
    they usually don't realize that they're alive until about the age
    of 6.
    
    I'd suggest probing a bit to find out what the exact fears are about
    death.
    
    Diana

 
 .16 > I read somewhere that children don't really understand death because
 .16 > they usually don't realize that they're alive until about the age
 .16 > of 6.
 
 I don't agree with that.  I'm not sure I could identify any adults who
 "really understand death," but my kids have had a reasonable understanding of
 the difference between alive and dead, and what it means that a person or
 animal dies, since they were considerably younger than 6.  
 
 		- Bruce
 

    I'm not entering this with any kind of absolute knowledge, but isn't
    there a book by Dr. Seuss and/or Mr. Rogers on dying?  I seem to recall
    a program on both Mr. Rogers and Sesamie Street on dying as well. 
    Perhaps with these tools it might assist with the situation.
    
    AJ just turned 4, and recently he's made some profound statements like
    "dead is forever, right mom?" also heard recently was "bad accidents
    cause you to get dead" (bless children's grammar!).
    
    AJ was baptized in my husband's church, Roman Catholic but since he
    goes to church maybe once or twice a year, I decided to start taking
    him with me to my church (Protestant; Methodist) he now recognize
    *his* church whenever we drive past it, and kind of cute is a child's 
    association, he now knows when I tell him that we go to church on Sunday, 
    he usually asks, can we get donuts there? (coffee and donuts are served 
    after services).  He recently picked up on one of our favorite phrases 
    "Oh God", and I realized that I need to start watching what I say! 
    (no opinions, I know what I've done!)
    
    Lyn

    Another thing that I did not see brought up yet is that the child may
    be worrying about what will happen to him once you die, and if that is
    soon, will he have to cope with life on his own?  It may be another
    angle to look at...
    
    Adrienne