Conference moira::parenting_v3

We have a daughter who is just over 2-1/2.  We have found (and firmly
believe) that telling our daughter something is insufficient.  Unless
we back it up with punishment for doing wrong, the behavior is not
eliminated but will continue (sporadically at best, constantly at worst).
Our preferred method of disciplining her is a wooden spoon on her behind
or legs followed by a prayer asking forgiveness.  This creates a
remarkable change not only in her short term behavior, but her long term
behavior as well.

I think what you are experiencing is extremely normal for kids.  Although
our daughter has never called anyone names (we never call anyone names
and she's rarely with other kids who call kids names, so she just hasn't
been exposed much to this), our daughter did starting hitting others
(primarily Mommy and Daddy) somewhat.  Talking to her about this along
with punishment changed the behavior and it is no longer a problem.

Good luck.  Hope our experience helps.  I know that raising a child is
a very frustrating experience at times.

Collis

    RE -.1:
    
    I am in agreement with you about the need to punish/spank a child for bad
    behavior (unlike many other PARENTING noters). HOWEVER, IMHO, spanking
    should only be used as a last resort after at least a few attempts at
    reasoning with the child, AND (this one really made my blood boil),
    using a wooden spoon or any other instrument other than a hand for
    spanking is a serious form of child abuse. I don't know what part of
    the country you are from, and I'm aware that some religious groups
    actually advocate spanking with an instrument. Still, IMHO, SPANKING
    WITH A WOODEN SPOON OR INSTRUMENT IS CHILD ABUSE (caps are used
    intentionally here).
    
    Now, back to .0:
    
    Kate,
    
    My daughter is the same age as your James, and I'm convinced that even
    at the tender age of 2.9, children are bright enough to understand what
    is right and what is wrong. For example, Jamie (my daughter) gives me a
    hard time about leaving her sitter's house almost every night. So, I
    give her a few chances to cooperate and get ready to go (coat, hat,
    mittens, etc.) before I threaten to swat her bottom. I've NEVER had to
    actually do that at the sitter's, but there are rare occasions where
    she's gone too far and I have given her a swat--so she KNOWS the scoop.
    Another example, last week Jamie told me to shut up. When I asked her
    to repeat what she said, she responded by giving me a bear hug and
    telling me that she loved me. So, she UNDERSTANDS the differences
    between right and wrong, she just tries to test my limits. Of course, I
    HATE when she behaves this way. But I believe it's typical behavior for
    a 2.9-year-old that she can't control YET--but will with time,
    teaching, and a little discipline.
    
    Nancy-
    
    

	1) This is NOT the note to discuss the merits of spanking/not spanking.
Do NOT pursue this tangent in this note.

	2) Be very careful with value judgements.  As a moderator, I think it 
is inappropriate/likely to cause more conflict than enlightenment to tell 
another parent thet there practice is child abuse.  I encourage all noters to
use "I" language.  That is, rather than say "That is child abuse" (which is all
to easy to interpret as "*you* are a child abuser"), say  "*I* would not hit 
my child with anything other than the flat of my hand."  When you use loaded,
terms like child abuse, simply adding "In my opinion" does not mitigate the
harsh language of the statement.

Tracey 
Parenting co-mod and host    

    Thank you, Moderator...
    
    Now back to the subject at hand:  Where in creation is he getting
    this stuff?  We certainly don't call him a bad boy (I admit, my
    tongue is sometimes black and blue from biting it!), and I know
    my sitter doesn't.  The few spankings that have been administered have
    been conducted very formally (i.e., Mother or Dad sits in a chair,
    tells James, "You are getting a spanking for Behavior X, which we
    cannot and will not tolerate," and then he's turned over the parent's
    knee).  I don't swat at James carelessly, and neither does Mike or
    anyone else.  TV is carefully monitored (OK, so Mom is a "Jeopardy!"
    junkie!), so I don't think he's getting it from there.  Short of
    telling his peers to deck him when he hits them, what else can a
    parent do?

    Kate,
    
    I've wondered the same thing (where is he getting this). My son,
    now 3, started saying "You're BAD" a few months ago to whoever he
    was trying to provoke at the time. I figured it came from the kids
    at his daycare or at nursery school, although both are very
    non-aggressive, well-monitored situations. I figure it's just one
    of those things in the air...like gun play. We hate guns and have 
    no intention of encouraging his interest (nor of trying to squelch
    it), so what does he want to play with at his friends' houses? At
    the toystore? Guns, swords, laser thingies, you know...
    
    Sigh...
    
    Lucy

    .4 > Where in creation is he getting this stuff?  
    
    I'd say, just about anywhere in creation.  Quite possibly from his
    parents (this is abstract speculation, not a comment on them in
    particular!), if not from around the dinner table, then perhaps when
    stuck behind some %@$%@#$%@#$% driver in a traffic jamb.  If not from 
    them, then perhaps from mom's soaps.  If not from them, then surely
    from his peers.  Any kid who doesn't see enough of peers to be exposed to
    hitting and name calling is suffering social isolation.
    
    .4 >  What else can a parent do?
    
    I recommend relaxation.  99% of all twos hit one another occasionally,
    99% of the human race calls others by nasty names at least 
    occasionally, and there's no reason to expect an exemption for your
    kids.  Yes, you should continue trying to teach what "nice" behavior is
    like, particularly by example.  But don't overreact to occasional 
    lapses.  And don't lightly assume that the best way to teach a kid not to
    hit others is by hitting them, with or without a spoon.  With a little more
    perspective, you'll soon be joining other noters in entering your kids
    latest nasty insult into the "I have the funniest kids" string.
    
    		- Bruce

    This type of behavior must be "typical" for that age. Over the past few
    months Berk (now 2.9) has been more aware of naughty and nice (and not
    because of Santa). He does tell me when the kids in his daycare do
    naughty things so he must be developing some type of differentiation
    between the 2. 
    
    I also think he is at the age of wanting to experiment with
    consequences. He has become more head-strong because he now knows a
    little more and has discovered the threshold  of parental frustration
    and loves to get to that threshold and totter on the edge. Now Berk
    does get the occasional spanking. He knows if we need to count to 3 
    and he doesn't do as asked (either stop a behavior or do something),
    he's going  to get a spanking. Last Sunday be just refused to get
    dressed and we were late for leaving for a brunch. He was in his own
    little world of excuses to avoid getting dressed and with me being
    pregnant (due in 5 weeks) there is no way I can physically play the
    dressing games with him. I needed him right by my side and to help get
    himself dressed. After 10 minutes of going back and forth he got the
    final warning and ended up with probably 10 spankings because he just
    refused to cooperate. (They weren't 10 successive swats, but subsequent
    because he still refused to help me out in getting im dressed and he
    got a warning before each one.)
    
    I think it is a time of "for every action there is an equal and
    opposite reaction", so to speak. They are willing to see what happens
    with negative reaction as well. They are becoming so in-tuned with
    their world and we just have to accept that they won't always be little
    angels. It is very frustrating as a parent because you don't want to
    lose your cool but we need to stay consistent in our teaching.So
    whomever said to relax, you hit the nail on the head!!!
    
    What we've been doing everytime he exhibits "undesireable" behavior
    is let him know we disapprove and explain why it is undesireable and
    what the "nice" behavior would have been. 
    
    I think this is the toddler version of learning swears and seeing what
    happens when you use them. Remember that first time you swore in front
    of your parents?!?! It's kind of a thrill to see their reaction,
    despite that fact you know what the consequences will be!!
    
    Andrea (who's glad she's not alone)

    
    
    To second Bruce's opinion, there is something illogical about hitting
    your kid because he's not supposed to hit you!  Facial expressions,
    time-outs, etc.. seem more appropriate.
    
    Also, we try to reserve spankings (tune-ups) for life threatening, scary 
    kinds of behavior - walking in the street, playing in the toilet,
    jumping in the bathtub - i.e. behavior which has to stop immediately.
    
    Rochelle

    I agree -- but again, sometimes you have to make a dramatic gesture
    to get a child's attention.  End of rathole.
    
    My MIL says that in six or eight more months, "he'll be so eager
    to please you'll wonder why you were so worried about him."  Is this
    really true?  My sister (mother of 4) said that her kids didn't have
    "Terrible Twos" as much as they had "Snotty Threes."  Moderator is
    this another note?

    
    JA doesn't "strike" often.  I've seen her "give a swat" (not really a
    hit) -- maybe once/twice a week, but usually in retaliation of having 
    "just received one" from another little_tyke.  I can count on one hand
    the times she's swatted Jim/me and it was ALWAYS in retaliation of us
    "swatting" her.
    
    So ...
    
    When she swats another kid, I hold both her hands in mine, glare
    eyeball to eyeball and speak HARSHLY (I don't yell, but just use 
    a very firm tone).  She usually struggles to get loose, but 
    I hold her hands until she stops struggling, her eyes leave mine
    and she pretty much concedes.
    
    As for swatting us, we avoid swatting her as much as possible.  Even
    just a pat on the diaper is teaching her "violence works" and if we are
    resorting to "swats" now (at 16 months), what will WE be resorting to
    during Terrible_2's?
    
    Jim/I usually try to take physical control of her (Jim bear hugs her, I
    hold her hands), make eye contact and speak harshly and hold on to her
    until she calms down (concedes!).  She's usually pretty good about not
    repeating the behavior ... well, not for another day or so anyways!
    
    Only once did I find myself "losing it", at which time I placed her in
    her crib, closed her bedroom door ... and gave BOTH OF US the much
    needed 20 minutes to "both calm down".  I then called my Mom,
    guilt-ridden and teary-eyed and received that much needed support and
    little extra love.  Julianne and I were both very lovey after the "time
    out" and the "almost immediate improvement it made in both JA
    AND me" floored me!   THEY KNOW what THEY DID ... and THEY REMEMBER ... 
    and THEY LEARN -- from "US"!
    
    I recently saw some Post-ems which said "Motherhood is NOT for whimps
    ..."  (showed a cartoon character of Mom, broom in hand, kid in arms,
    hair frazzled ...) ... Just adorable!  Got one pasted on my refrig, one
    on my bathroom mirror, one on JA's BEDROOM DOOR! ...
    
    It's not easy ... and I don't say "I'll NEVER ..." anymore -- as I've
    eatten far too many words these past 15 months!
                                                         
    Dottie