Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Tracey:
    
    Although I had my doubts about Santa around 6-7 years of age, I didn't
    really believe he didn't exist (probably for fear that when I gave up
    believing, the gifts would go away, too!) until about 8-9 (so I waffled
    for a Christmas or two).
    
    When I finally did broach the subject to my Mom, she pointed me to a
    wonderful story in the Book of Knowledge which didn't really say there
    was or there wasn't ... but rather explained how St. Nicholas came
    about and how St. Nicholas IS the SPIRIT OF CHRISTMAS AND GIVING and
    represents all those wonderful things like love, peace ... etc.
    So I can honestly say, in my early-40's I STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA!
    (because I believe in what St. Nicholas and the holiday spirit
    represents).
    
    I sense more and more parents are being honest about Santa right
    upfront at a young age because of honesty, integrity ... an slew load
    of reasons.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I am noticing a
    trend towards that.
    
    Jim/I will go traditional ... here's Santa!!!  But we will also try to
    dwell on the "purpose and spirit of Christmas" and try our darndest to
    avoid Christmas from becoming one big party with tons of presents and
    it's purpose dwindling away through the years.
    
    Dottie

    This is very timely - I've been thinking about posting a note about
    this but hadn't got around to it.  I haven't got any answers, only
    questions.
    
    My daughter is 18 months old, so this is reallt the first Christmas that 
    we've had the Santa problem.  When I was little my parents told me that
    Santa was a fairy story character and Christmas presents came from
    Mummy and Daddy, etc.  I don't remember having any problems with this -
    after all it is the truth!  On the other hand, my husband's parents told
    him that Christmas presents came from Santa.  He can't remember when he
    finally realised that Santa wasn't real, and I don't think that it
    worried him when he found out the truth.  
    
    My husband decided that we should follow the same pattern that he had
    been through, and tell Alison that presents come from Santa.  I didn't
    have any strong feelings either way, so went along with this, however
    it does raise some questions, which I was wondering how other people
    cope with.  Yesterday I took my daughter Christmas shopping with me. 
    Now, she's not old enough to ask, but when she is old enough, how do I
    explain why we have to go Christmas shopping, when presents come from 
    Santa?  How do you explain that there's a different Santa in every
    store?  If Santa only comes on Christmas Eve, what's he doing handing
    out presents at the Nursery Christmas party on 20th December?  Perhaps 
    I'm taking this a bit too seriously, but my husband can't remember how
    his parents explained this, and my parents never had to.   
    
    Well, I don't think this counts as one of my major parenting problems,
    but I'm curious to know how others coped with this. :-)
    
    - Janet            

    
    Janet:
    
    Some kids will accept the most unreasonable logic, with absolutely no
    questions ... because they WANT to believe it's so.
    
    Other kids will notice and question lots of things ... my niece asked
    me why Santa strung a string from one ear to the other!  (because it
    keeps his fake beard on!).   When the kids ask, I try to be honest,
    without being blatantly obvious.  My Mom played little games like:
    well, all these Santa's are really Santa's helpers because Santa is so
    busy ...  Now, with that explanation, fake beards, skinny Santas and
    purple pokka-dotted jackets (only kidding!) all makes sense!
    
    My sister played cool.  What she did was mark half the presents from
    Mom/Dad and half the presents from Santa ... that way she could pile up
    her car with bags of presents and the kids just thought "well, these
    must be our Mom/Dad presents" ... when they were really from Santa,
    too.  She also didn't want them to think Santa or them would shop
    until they drop ... so they spread the wealth amongst themselves.
    
    Growing up, all presents were from Santa ... whether or not we
    believed.
    
    Funny how many different approaches and solutions there have been to
    these dilemnas over the many, many years and generations!
    
    Not sure how I'll handle things.  I never gave it much thought.  All
    the tags on our presents to Julianne say "to:  Julianne  XXXOOOXXXOOO".
    I guess she'll "assume" they're from Santa!
    
    At 15 months, she's not the least bit interested in the tree, ornaments
    or decorations, EXCEPT ... she watches the lights, rearranges the
    presents (quite gently) and pulls HER stocking off the fireplace ... 
    and hugs our 3' ceramic Frosty and calls him "baaBBeee ... hi,
    baaBBEee!"  (cracks me up!)
    
    The "true" joys of parenthood!  Makes you forget all the difficult
    moments ... booohooo, I'd love to be home now, sitting under the tree
    with JA!
    
    Dottie

    I gave up on Santa when 3-year-old Kathy asked me on the day after
    Christmas,  "Mama, why didn't Santa Claus bring any presents for
    Lacey [her cousin]?  Is he mad at them because Uncle Ken lost his
    job?"
    
    I don't go out of my way to tell my kids there isn't a Santa, but
    I don't do anything for him, either.  It's CHRISTmas, not
    Santamas.  All our traditions focus on the shared joy of God's
    precious gift to us, and on reflecting that love and joy back to
    each other.  [And on remembering the Jewish tradition that comes
    through Neil's side of the family.]
    
    When they do ask questions about Santa, I take the same approach
    that .1 does -- that St. Nicholas was a good man who did good
    things for people, and that in his memory and because we love God
    and want to thank Him for sending Jesus,  we pretend to be Santa
    for other people.  The joy of Christmas isn't in sitting on
    Santa's lap and telling him what we want, it's in finding
    something special that will make a beloved friend or family member
    happy, or in helping make Christmas a little better for someone
    who is poor, or ill, or lonely, or distressed.  
    
    But I won't engage in any lies to keep up a commercial deception. 
    If Santa wants to deliver any presents at our house, he's going to
    have to do it himself -- and I'd really prefer that he skip our
    house and take the presents to the people who really need it, like
    the people who got laid off on Thanksgiving Eve.  
    
    --bonnie

    I think I'm somewhere in the middle with the whole Santa issue. Being
    raised Catholic and attending Catholic schools from day one, I think
    Santa was the fun side of Christmas which was a celebration of Christ's
    birth. Now try explaining the whole religious aspect of Christmas to an
    almost-3-year-old. Now both my husband and I love Christmas. My husband
    came to the States when he was 5 and Christmas is not celebrated in
    Turkey so Christmas to him is Santa (no religious implication) and a
    time for family. I just love the traditions of Christmas and am trying
    to tie all of them together for my son. He knows about "baby Jesus" and
    the whole manger scene and that the 3 Wise Men/Kings brought gifts to
    the "poor" baby Jesus. We sing the little drummer boy and he knows the
    best gift is the gift from the "heart". I've told him that everyone
    gives presents to remember those given on the first Christmas. So he
    picked out a good present for Daddy that he could really use or would
    like - a new loofah sponge - simple but what Daddy needs. 
    
    Then I tried to explain how Santa got into the picture. It's not all
    that easy because of all of the commercialism of Christmas. Shows like
    Santa Claus is Coming to Town helped a little because they showed how
    he wanted to do something good for the children and even for the Winter
    Warlock - that kindness and thoughtfulness are very important. 
    
    We also told him that Santa will bring him one present - not a list -
    despite the fact that he's asking for machineS. I intend to have only
    one present make a magical appearance under the tree Christmas
    morning. We will put out presents under the tree before Christmas eve
    so he gets used to the fact that we are giving presents to each other
    and this isn't a "gimme, gimme" celebration!! When taking him shopping,
    I explain that we are getting presents for others. So far he hasn't
    asked if people are getting him presents (nor has he assumed it).  
    
    I think it will be harder next year because he will be more intuned
    with the commercialism aspect of it all. Right now he is totally
    unaffected by any commercial that airs and has never asked for anything
    he has seen on tv. We're lucky so far. Starting next Thanksgiving,
    we're only watching PBS!!!! 
    
    I want him to think of Christmas as a magical time, a time for family
    and thinking of others; a time of celebration and reflection; a time
    for giving (even to those you don't know). That's the light I want
    Santa to be brought into - a good man who symbolizes all of that. 
    
    As for Frosty, Rudolph, the Grinch and the Burger-Meister, they are all
    part of the fun fantasy aspect but those stories have a "moral" if you
    really watch them. That is what I plan on stressing to him. 
    
    Andrea (who is a FAITHFUL Grinch watcher!!) 

    I think this is a major issue, as it's one of those "my family did
    it this way" issues with a lot of emotion attached to it.  But it's
    a major marital issue, as well as a parenting issue.
    
    My wife and I disagree on religion, but have had no major arguments
    or disagreements on how to present our beliefs to our son (now only
    one year old, so we have time to go yet).  On the other hand, we have
    had several "energetic discussions" about Santa Claus, and it's still
    a source of great tension.  My wife remembers the Santa business with
    great pleasure, and believes the warm fuzzys require faith at some
    point; I strongly feel that the bottom line is that I will NOT lie to
    my child.  I don't plan to take him aside and say "it's all a fake"
    first thing, but I will say it's a story.  And yet I like doing
    gifts "from Santa", and like the idea of passing a fun practice
    on in the family.
    
    Recently I gave some magic tricks to three children (6, 11, and 15).
    The 11-year-old and the 15-year-old knew what the situation was, and
    I felt fine showing them how to work the trick and how to say the
    patter (i.e. while fictional, it was known by the audience to be
    fictional and thus came under the heading of "art" rather than "lie").
    But the 6-year-old had truely believed that I made a nickel disappear
    by tapping the envelope containing it once.  That bothered me.
    I could explain things to her, but it made me think about younger
    children who might not understand.  I don't want to feel that way
    about my son and Santa Claus.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Just a couple of comments, since I'm one of those "no children, yet"
    people! ;-)
    
    Some of the ways of dealing with this mentioned here are wonderful! 
    They're pretty much the way I plan on doing things.  After all, I
    always knew that the Easter Bunny wasn't real and it was mom/dad.  But,
    that was easier to conceptualize because, even as far back as I
    remember, I knew that there's no such thing as a 6 foot, animated
    rabbit (right, Harvey?)!  But, Santa looks like a real person and that
    makes it tougher.
    
    John, don't be so hard on yourself about the magic trick.  Just about
    everything that fascinates a young child isn't completely understood by
    the child, anyway.  Why should a magic trick be different?  When
    they're older, they'll figure it out.  For now, though, you haven't
    lied to the child.  You've just brought her a little bit of magic, a
    moment of wonder for her.  Think of it as showing her a hot air
    balloon taking off.  They'll comprehend the scientific reasoning later.
    
    This discussion reminds me _Miracle on 34th Street_ because the child
    has been raised to believe that Santa isn't real and the whole concept is
    for the purpose of commercialization.  I love this movie because I
    love the ending (for those who haven't seen it, and care, I won't say). 
    I have to see it every year because it seems to bring the magic back
    into the holiday.  I'm sure many of you would disagree.  But, while
    we're busy teaching our children about the real reason for CHRISTmas,
    and the true origin and reason for Santa Claus, can't we allow that
    little bit of wonder and excitement enter our lives, too, that you only
    find in make-believe?  If you don't think so, then I'd like to know
    which of you read bedtime fairy tales to your children?
    
    -d  

    
    I am really glad to see that there are disagreements between Moms and
    Dads as to the Santa Claus issue--at least I know I'm not the only one
    (although my situation is different than most of yours).
    
    Both my husband and I are Jewish.  We don't celebrate Christmas at
    all--we don't have any lights, trees, etc...we celebrate Chanukah
    (which started last night--8 days of presents!).  In the Jewish
    religion, it is a real no-no to have decorations of any kind at the
    holiday season--except for lighting the Menorah on the 8 nights of
    Chanukah, making special foods (ie: potatoe latkes), and playing
    dreidl.  It a way, it is sort-of sinful to partake in Christmas
    activity--sort-of like betraying ones own religion and beliefs.
    
    Now to the hard part.
    
    When I was growing up, my family (including my cousins, Grandparents,
    aunts, uncles, etc.) always did Santa Claus.  Everyone in our family
    had stockings that we hung on the hearth.  Even the dog had a stocking. 
    We got lots of presents for Chanukah--but EVERYONE always got at least
    ONE BIG present from Santa Claus.  I honestly did not know that Santa
    Claus wasn't real until I was 7 or 8 years old (and I will NEVER
    forgive my cousin for telling me!).  I was shocked to find out that
    Santa Claus was a fake (and since he had no religious conotation for
    me, it was indeed nothing more than a ruse by my entire family!).  I
    got over the deception fairly quickly however, and went on to lead a
    fairly normal life...(!).
    
    I remember Santa Claus as being a magical, mythical, wonderful
    figure--it was such a large part (for me) of the magic of childhood.  I
    never associated him with "Christianity" or anything betraying my own
    heritage or religious beliefs.  
    
    My husband however, views things quite differently.  He feels that
    Santa Claus is a religious figure ONLY--and that we have no business
    instilling any kind of belief in Santa Claus in our children (ie: in
    Hannah).  He did not have Santa Claus at all when he was growing up--he
    was told that Santa Claus ONLY went to the homes of Christian children. 
    
    I cannot argue with him--because in a sense, Santa Claus is not a part
    of our religion and Santa Claus is a religious figure--when truth be
    told.  I guess I am just heartsick--because I would like Hannah to have
    the "Santa Claus" magic that I had when I was growing up.  I don't feel
    that having Santa Claus has made me any less of a Jewish person or has
    made me any less loyal to my heritage or religion.
    
    It gives me a little relief to see that some of you have disagreements
    on this issue as well (although for different reasons).
    
    Anyway, I don't hope to resolve it in my favor--or even reach a
    compromise.  We're not having Santa and that's it.  When I see a Santa
    in a mall or whatever, I avoid him or if we have to pass, I don't point
    him out or make a big deal.  I've asked Hannah's nursery school not to
    have a Santa--no sense getting her confused.  
    
    So--those of you who are having disagreements with a spouse--take
    heart--it happens to the best of us.  I always thought that
    mix-religion marriages would be difficult during the holidays.   I
    guess that when you meld different family traditions together--all hell
    can break loose no matter what the basic premise!
    
    Happy Holidays to all of you.  Happy Chanukah.  Merry Christmas.  Happy
    Quanza.
    
    Bonnie
    
    

    Re .-1.  Bonnie, this is a tough one.  My husband and I are both
    Jewish, and though neither of our families had Santa Claus, I'm already
    starting to rehearse for next year how I will explain to Marc what
    Santa Claus is and why we don't celebrate Christmas, etc. etc. (I don't
    think it's possible to separate Santa Claus from Christmas) without
    making him feel like he's missing something.  I would think that if you
    yourself _wanted_ to have Santa Claus be part of your holiday
    celebration for whatever reason, this would be doubly hard.

    RE .9 - Your final sentences explain exactly what I hope Christmas
    means for my son - a very special holiday based on a very special 
    origin that allows us to combine magic/fantasy with tradition. 
    
    I'm probably a bigger kid right now over Christmas then my son is and
    it is just so exciting to see him thrilled over this time of year. We
    want to instill a Christmas spirit in him that he can carry on to his
    family. That spirit will be made up of many things - the real Christmas
    story, Santa, fantasy, etc. 
    
    Andrea (who really wishes Santa took care of toy shopping and can't 
    	    wait to eat the cookies Berk leaves for him!!!)

Bonnie,

re .-1 
		In the Jewish
    religion, it is a real no-no to have decorations of any kind at the
    holiday season--except for lighting the Menorah on the 8 nights of
    Chanukah, "
    
I don't understand what you mean by this.  There is no Jewish authority, custom
or text that I know of that comments on, let alone forbids 'decorations at the 
holiday season'.  If you want to put up paper dreidels on yr walls, or humungous
plastic Menorahs on yr lawn, I guess I might question yr taste, but I don't
know what you mean about its being a 'real no-no'.  

    It a way, it is sort-of sinful to partake in Christmas
    activity--sort-of like betraying ones own religion and beliefs.
    
I'd like to comment on this for a moment.  Christmas, at heart and bottom
line, is about celebrating the coming of the Christian Messiah.  Judaism
explicitly rejects the notion that this person is the Messiah... i don't want
to go on too long about all this.  Now, as you probably are well aware, being
an American Jew does not require any great commitment to or understanding in
depth of fine points of Jewish theology, but it is hard to ignore the basic
underlying reality of Christmas and the degree to which it is a rejection of
Judaism.   So celebrating Christmas seems to be a terrifically silly thing
for a Jew to do.    Which leads us to the next part of your story:
    
    When I was growing up, my family (including my cousins, Grandparents,
    aunts, uncles, etc.) always did Santa Claus.  Everyone in our family
    had stockings that we hung on the hearth.  Even the dog had a stocking. 
    We got lots of presents for Chanukah--but EVERYONE always got at least
    ONE BIG present from Santa Claus...
    I remember Santa Claus as being a magical, mythical, wonderful
    figure--it was such a large part (for me) of the magic of childhood.  I
    never associated him with "Christianity" or anything betraying my own
    heritage or religious beliefs.  
    
I find this so poignant, moving and (to me) fascinating.  The reason 
some American Jews participate in these Christmas practices is because
these traditions are so nice.  Everyone likes giving and getting presents;
everyone also likes fitting in with the norm (and the norm in this country
is to be (at least nominally) a Christian).  But, nice as it all seems, I 
don't see how it's possible to do these things and ignore the Christian context
without practicing a lot of self-deception.  Well, it's not the end of the
world if you (or yr family) give in to temptation and do this stuff, I just
want to explain that its not so much a matter of some unexplainable, awful
unfair Jewish Grinch or Scrooge telling you that its sinful or treasonous
to celebrate Christmas if you're a Jew - it really is highly contradictory
to any consistent understanding of Judaism I know of.  The fact that there are
many people who entirely reject Christianity as a religion and still are happy 
to celebrate Christmas isn't a factor - it *still* happens to be true that
Christmas is a Christian holiday, and is also an anti-Judaism holiday in the
sense that what it affirms (the coming of the Messaiah of the Jews) is anathama
to Judaism.

    told.  I guess I am just heartsick--because I would like Hannah to have
    the "Santa Claus" magic that I had when I was growing up.  I don't feel
    that having Santa Claus has made me any less of a Jewish person or has
    made me any less loyal to my heritage or religion.

It certainly hasn't made you any less Jewish!  It's not hard to see the 
temptation of lights and presents and music and cookies... don't feel bad
that you found it so enjoyable as a child or that you want yr child to have
similar good experiences.  I hope you and yr family find ways to recreate
the good vibes from yr childhood.  It seems as though perhaps the best
thing about Christmas celebrations is that families get together to celebrate,
and this particular 'holiday' custom is no stranger to Jewish tradition either.

Now, for tachlis!  My advice regarding Hannah is that you ignore Santa Claus.
If she asks about Santas she sees, perhaps you could explain that he pertains
to someone else's religion.  I frankly don't remember ever being confused about
Santa, or believing in him even in the sense of believing he came to give my
Christian friends gifts.  I *do* remember being envious of the beautiful trees
and ornaments and presents my friends had but that sort of greed is basic
human nature and was hardly limited to Christmastime.  As far as having magic
in a child's life - so much of her life is magic to her at this point.  I hope
you don't worry that she's judging and grading you as a parent on whether you
'give' her Christmas.  Whatever you do in your family will probably become
for Hannah the right way to be and the right thing to do.  Such is the power
of parenthood.  I think that in your family the person will be suffering
from the lack of Santa Claus will be you, not Hannah!  I hope with time you 
will feel less deprived about this - I bet it will eventually seem quite 
natural to you to not have Santa in your life. 

I suppose that the more information and experience Hannah has about living a
Jewish life, the less concerned you might be that she is feeling deprived
for not leading a Christian lifestyle, so that is also something you might
consider.

My son is 18 months old, and he already has a pretty strong sense of the 
difference between shabat and the rest of the week.  He recognises, in some
sense, shabat, shul, lighting candles, kiddush, challah, havdalah, davening, 
a talit, a kipah.  He says amen when he hears us say it and seems to have some 
independent recognition of when its appropriate to do so; he covers his eyes 
when we say Shema at night (and sometimes signals time for the end of the 
pred-bedtime routine by saying 'Shema' and pulling my hand over his eyes!)
I'm not worried that he's going to feel deprived because he doesn't have 
Santa in his life! Focus on what IS in Hannah's life because of your family's
traditions and beliefs, not about all the million and one other possibilities
out there! 

    We do not tell our children about Santa Claus, except as they notice
    and ask about him. Then they are told he is a fun story type of person
    that people pretend about at Christmas, but he is not real, and has no
    more magic than Cinderella or Winnie-the-Pooh. A small part of our
    reason for this is the desire to be as totally honest with our children
    as possible (and we bend over backwards to do that), but the most
    important part is that, being fundamentalist Christians, we want our
    children to understand that Christmas is Christ's birthday, the day
    God put into motion his plan of salvation by sending His son to earth.
    And they not only *understand* that  very well, but have since they
    were each less than 3, but then agian we talk about Jesus all year
    long. They suffer no loss of excitement and wonder as a result of no
    Santa Claus. They have enough excitement with Christmas trees and
    decorating, the train set I set up under the tree each year, baking,
    buying and wrapping gifts for others, eagerly ticking off the days till
    Dec. 25th. They are totally enchanted with "Jesus' birthday", and give
    weird blank stares to those adults who ask if Santa is coming soon! I
    have told Josh (5) that some parents let their children believe Santa
    is real, and that they should not tell other children that he is not.
    So far, there have been no problems i this respect.
    
    As far as children having no imagination because they are only told the
    truth....that's just plain not true! Our kids, and quite a few other's
    we know who don't believe in Santa, have some of the most vivid
    imaginations I've run across! Give Josh and Carrie a cardboard box, and
    the adventures that result will astound you...*I* couldn't be that
    imaginative!
    
    I also don't strictly agree that Santa is a religious figure. As a
    matter of fact, to me, he detracts greatly from the religious reason
    for the Holiday, which most people don't even seem to acknowledge any
    more. Yet, he is inextricably linked to a particularly Christian
    holiday, and I can see how difficult it might be to Jews to permit him
    to be allowed, and still stay away from the Christian aspect of the end
    of December. My wife grew up in a neighborhood that was, at least from
    the time she was 7 or 8 yrs. old, predominantly Jewish. Many families
    struggled with just this issue. Lots gave in, and had, what they
    called, a Chanukah bush (to match Christmas trees), and some did Santa
    and the reindeer and all the other secular symbols associated with this
    Christain Holiday. Be interesting to go back to their kids and find out
    how it has affected their perceptions of their Jewish heritage, and
    whether they cling to traditional Judaism, or have basically forsaken
    it.
    
    Our kids like knowing we choose very special things for them, and they
    had a *blast* going shopping for mommy (they wanted to get absolutely
    everything they saw for her, but settled for some very special things),
    and don't suffer the least from Santa not being involved.
    
    --dave--

    It's funny that we're saying everyone else forgets the real Christian
    reason for Christmas.  All my friends, too, say that same thing. 
    Bottom line is:  I think there's a real trend (not the best choice of
    words) towards traditionalism and religious grounds for things we do,
    including Christmas.  Unfortunately, I think it's probably only Madison
    Ave. that's commercializing it more and more.  
    
    As for Jewish folks and Christmas...I don't know any Jewish people who
    don't, in some way, take on some of the Christmas traditions, just
    because "'tis the season!". They love doing it and I appreciate them
    being able to participate, understanding full well that they do it as a
    seasonal tradition and usually have with their families.  I always felt
    that children in a mixed-religion home had the best of both worlds!
      
    What I don't agree with is what a friend of mine (roommate, at the
    time) wanted to do.  We both, clearly, wanted to put up a Christmas
    tree (she's Jewish, I'm Christian).  She even had more decorations than
    I did!  When it was finished, I mentioned how we needed a star for the
    top.  She didn't want one because it symbolized Christ.  Well,
    hello...?  I always thought the Christmas tree was a Christian
    tradition?  Needless to say, the tree got a star.  I reminded her it
    was a star of *David*.
    
    If we can combine different religious *beliefs* in a home, why can't we
    include other beliefs...like Santa?
    
    -d

    I disagree with the earlier note that claimed that non-Christians who
    have a tree-and-Santa celebration are reinforcing the Christian nature
    of the holiday.
    
    As a third-generation non-believer, I'm certain my gifts and tree and
    so on have _nothing_ to do with a certain popular belief system, and
    refuse to agree that my having a tree with lights on it contributes 
    to any religious atmosphere benefiting that religion.
    
    I'm also aware of the history of the winter solstice celebration: most
    European pre-Christian traditions have one, and ours is clearly mostly
    the German one, with extra elements taken from various other traditions,
    the whole covered over with a thin Christian gloss (much like two other
    feasts: Halloween ghosts and the Easter Bunny are both leftovers from
    a pagan past; and the Tooth Fairy is totally pagan).  The Puritans even
    decided Christmas was too pagan to celebrate at all, for a time!
    
    		-John Bishop

    I think many religions have borrowed from and been influenced by
    eachother, and the Christmas tree certainly did not _originate_
    as a Christian symbol although it was made into one.  This was a 
    question to Ask the Globe a few weeks ago.  (Sorry, I know this 
    isn't the Religion notesfile).
      More to the point, I can remember when I believed in Santa but
    don't remember when I found out that he wasn't real.  It must have
    been a gradual process.  I do remember noticing that the presents
    from Santa had the same handwriting as the presents from Dad.
    	Linda

re: .17

>    (Sorry, I know this isn't the Religion notesfile).

Linda,

Thanks.

While all of these notes have relevant portions, some of them spend a lot of 
time on matter that is extraneous to this notesfile.

Stating what your religious beliefs are is useful background to stating how 
you treat Santa Claus, and/or celebrate Christmas WITH REGARD TO YOUR 
CHILDREN -- that's germane to this notesfile.  Discussing the the religious 
beliefs themselves is NOT.  

I would be very, very, suprised if these subjects are not covered extensively
in the various notesfiles on the various religions.  I suggest that you take 
the theological discussions there.

Back to the regularly scheduled topic . . .

Clay

	re: -.1 Actually the christmas tree is a hand me down from a *pagan* 
tradition as are many "Christmas" traditions.

	In fact, the very timing of Christmas itself is influenced by 
Pre-Christian tradition.  Scholars believe that Jesus' birth was actually in 
the spring.  The early church moved the celebration to December because of a 
non Christian celebration called saturnalia (that celebrated the Winter Solstice
and the coming of longer days).  Too many Christians celebrated this (and the 
celebrations tended to be rather -- shall we say wild?) so the church pre-empted 
the date to give them an alternative celebration and to bring them "back into 
the fold".

	My husband (who is obviously NOT a christian) keeps threatening
to get and wear a shirt that says "saturn is the reason for the season.... :-)

	The saying "there is nothing new under the sun" is doubly true for 
religions, who have a tendency to "borrow" from each other shamelessly.	So I 
would be careful in my judgements about whether someone is being "religiously 
inconsistent", you might be surprised to discover the source of some of *your* 
traditions.

	Tracey

	Obviously several replies slipped in while I was writing, so my 
refeerence to -.1 was off. :-)

	Tracey

    Good point, .19.
    
    Back to the "Santa Question":  I think everyone wrestles with this
    because everyone wants to be honest with her/his children.  In our
    house (so far -- James is only 2.5), both Santa and Mom & Dad give
    presents.  Santa brings not just toys, but clothes and books.  Mom &
    Dad also give much-wanted items, like balls and cars and videos.
    This way, the deck isn't "stacked" in Santa's favor.
    
    I do not make a big deal about Santa.  I don't care if James or any
    of my other kids EVER sit on his lap.  Holy crow, you spend the 
    other 11 months of the year telling them "don't go anywhere with
    strangers" and then all of a sudden, it's December and they're
    supposed to _sit on the lap_ of some guy who doesn't even dress like
    anyone they know...!
    
    Anyway, we soft-pedal the Santa bit since James is scared senseless
    of him.  I don't bother to point department-store Santas out to him,
    nor have I made a big deal out of the Christmas specials on TV. 
    (Even though *I* like to watch them!)  We've pretty much kept it
    to "Christmas is a special day that honors the birth of Jesus.  
    We give each other presents because the Three Kings gave Jesus
    presents."  
    
    I would NEVER use Santa as a threat, or tell a child that if s/he
    doesn't behave, Santa won't give them anything, or will take away
    the toys that they did get for Christmas.  To me, that's terrorism.
    
    As James gets older, we'll go to the toy store together and pick out
    a toy for the Toys for Tots drive.  Our church also collects things
    for the patients at Danvers State Hospital, so we'll pick up a few
    things for them too (sox, soap, razors, etc.).  
    
    I do believe that kids take their cues from parents (for the most
    part), so if you don't make a big deal out of Santa at your house
    -- and it's a choice only you and your spouse/SO can make -- then
    your kids won't make a big deal out of it either.
    
    Sorry to be so long-winded.  Peace to all this holiday season -- 
    whether you celebrate Chanukah, Christmas, or Kwanzaa
    
    Kate

    By the way--what is is this "Kwanzaa" people have been refering
    too?  It looks as though it's an African festival, but what are
    the details?
    			-John Bishop

    I can't argue with individuals' religious interpretation of the Jolly
    Guy.
    
    But... I do think it's very, very sad that some kids will be denied
    this magical fantasy figure because their parents refuse to "lie."  I
    wish they would lighten UP!  When their toddlers throw a teddy bear
    across the room in frustration, do these parents never LIE ("Aww, Teddy
    hurts, kiss and make it better")?  Do these households have no Easter
    Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, no Sandman?
    
    When I was a kid, presents came about 50/50 from parents/Santa (it
    seems from these notes that some households have *all* gifts from Santa
    - that surprised me).  When I was in first grade, and we were lined up
    next to the 2nd grade to come in from recess, I overheard a 2nd-grader
    reminisce, "when I believed in Santa" - I'm still mad at that kid, but
    I've never been angry at my parents for the "lie"!  Au contraire!
    
    As for S.C. being in every store, in major department stores you
    usually have to *look* for the "Santa's Village" - it's pretty easy to
    avoid.  True, malls usually have a Santa out in plain sight, but
    reindeer fly mall-to-mall a lot faster than gridlocked cars can crawl,
    so it's no surprise that Santa's at the next shopping center by the
    time you get there.  You don't have to get close enough to inspect for
    differences in the beard or buttons (good heavens, you don't let your
    kids sit on Santa's lap every time you see him, do you?!).  The
    Salvation Army Clauses are S.A. people in S.C. suits, or helpers or
    elves.  And "Santa Claus, the Movie" makes some excellent points about
    time standing still when the sleigh is flying, and Santa's immortality.
    
    Leslie

    .23 > When their toddlers throw a teddy bear across the room in
    .23 > frustration, do these parents never LIE ("Aww, Teddy hurts, kiss
    .23 > and make it better")?  Do these households have no Easter Bunny,
    .23 > no Tooth Fairy, no Sandman?

    The answers are no [frankly, I'd rather they'd throw a teddy bear
    than something that really could be hurt], no [religious holiday],
    sort of ["Daddy, don't forget you're the tooth fairy tonight"],
    and no, in that order.  But that doesn't mean we don't have fun,
    or imagination, or fantasy.  We just don't get it mixed up with
    reality. 

    We do read fairy tales.  Mother writes science fiction -- and if
    that's not a fairy tale, I can't imagine what is!  The imagination
    to picture the world as it might be and to go out and change it,
    to imagine what another person is feeling and empathize, to build
    a dream world and enjoy it, is one of the greatest gifts human
    beings have.  Myths that explain something about living, even if
    they aren't literally true, add immense richness to life. 

    But none of that requires pretending that something is literally
    true to the extent of attempting to provide physical evidence like
    packages that the myth is true in a physical sense.  Santa does
    exist, obviously, as a creation of our minds, as a representation
    of things that are important to our culture and as an explanation
    of how our society works. 

    Imagination isn't reality.  Or rather, is reality of a different
    kind.  Saying Saint Nick isn't physically real doesn't seem to
    have dampened my kids' enthusiasm for Christmas or their
    appreciation of the magical aspects of the season.  Trying to
    convince kids that Santa is physically real strikes me as on a par
    with taking your four-year-old on a hunt for bean seeds for a
    giant beanstalk to prove Jack climbed to the sky -- probably not
    harmful, but certainly not useful.
    
    --bonnie

    Tracey has the origins of the Christianisation of Saturnalia about
    right in .19, according to my own recollections, though the "early
    Church" that did this was, if I remember, something like 2nd century.
    
    Even so, it took a shade less than 2 millenia for Christmas "as we know
    it" to emerge (although all sorts of other mid-winter traditions got
    blended in along the way, like the Germanic tree element).  The
    "Christmas spirit" as we know it actually stems from Dicken's
    "Christmas Carol," and most of the details of our knowledge of Santa's
    actual procedures come from "The Night Before Christmas."  Christ and
    Christianity play no role in either story.  One might suggest that
    another inspiration of contemporary Christmas is (implicitly) Adam
    Smith; we each may hold our own opinion whether Free Enterprise and 
    The Invisible Hand are particularly Christian concepts.
    
    My boys have (at least to some degree) the best of both worlds, as they
    have one parent who is Jewish and another who isn't and views Christmas
    as a fine general purpose holiday whose theological content is in the
    eye of the beholder.  So they (boys) get Chanukah and Christmas, too! 
    Christmas was modified by the elimination of stockings (to prevent
    absurd over-proliferation of presents), and the tree was constrained
    for awhile to have neither star nor angel atop it.  But now they have
    Christmas at one house and Chanukah at both, and they find that not
    peculiar at all.  We DO read The Night Before Christmas, etc., but do
    not feel compelled to initiate any discussions on the reality of Santa. 
    His name is apt to appear on presents, but it is also generally
    understood that it would be risky for us mortals to leave the entire
    burden upon him.   We are wrestling right now with the problem of the
    context in which the boys might give a present to their mom, since at
    her end (and everywhere else I know) Chanukah presents flow in only one
    direction across the generation gap.
    
    			- Bruce

    Thanks, Bonnie, for a well written reply, a couple replies back!
    
    As for our house, while we may give living characteristics to stuffed
    animals, we never pretend they are *reall* alive, and the kids know
    that very clearly. And, no, we have no sandman, Easter Bunny or Tooth
    Fairy (to be fair, we've had no need for a Tooth Fairy yet). We will
    not pretend something is real when its not, but will allow and
    encourage all the make-believing that their little hearts could desire. 
    
    Joshua has a small, hand-sized stuffed dog which is his very most
    favorite companion. Now he pretends to feed him, dress him, comfort
    him, etc., but also clearly knows he is not alive! *That* to me is the
    basic difference. I just don't see why there is a need to so vigorously
    "prove" to our children that Santa is real (as in a living, breathing
    human being, as opposed to a general Holiday spirit), telling lie upon
    lie to make it believable. Yes, there is a lot of "magic" involved,
    but, my point is that there can be just as much magic from other
    sources. Our kids aren't deprived! They are as excited and eagerly
    aniticpating as the next Santa-believing kid! And I *do* know that my
    wife remembers being gravely disapointed in her parents when she found
    out Santa was not real, and wondering why they had made it up. And, no,
    of course, it didn't warp her for life, but it was a bit painful when
    it happened, and is an unhappy memory which clouded some of the
    previous good ones. My personal observation and opinion here.....it
    seems to me that it's the parents who are much more concerned with
    preserving the idea of Santa and the magic, so that *they* can enjoy
    it! Sort of like recapturing one's childhood. It seems like the parents
    are much more concerned that their kids won't know Santa than the kids
    ever would be. I know my kids don't feel they've missed anyuthing in
    Christmas by not believing in Santa...and I think the same could go for
    other kids, as well.
    
    --dave--

    Some of your friends make sure that their children know that Santa is
    not real.  And then they tell them that part of the fun of Christmas
    is pretending that he is real, and that they should pretend real hard.

    Geez, we don't want our kids to experience anything other than reality
    do we?  It seems as though this is what I'm hearing from alot of
    noters.  Let's let our kids be kids, they are growing up too fast these
    days anyway. 
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

>    Some of your friends make sure that their children know that Santa is
>    not real.  And then they tell them that part of the fun of Christmas
>    is pretending that he is real, and that they should pretend real hard.

Some wonderful, serious, comments in here, particularly Dave Orth's note.  
But thanks for this different approach.  It brings back memories.

The last time I left out milk and cookies for Santa was my senior year in 
high school.  Well, not exactly.  My senior year, I felt a little mischievous, 
and left out a beer and a bowl of peanuts.  I guess I didn't want to 
_completely_ break the tradition.

I find my views have changed on the Santa issue.  I used to hold it very dear, 
but don't any more.  One thing is clear to me, though.  If your child 
believes, then it may or may not be OK to go along.  But once s/he starts to 
doubt, there's nothing to be gained, and something to be lost, in perpetuating 
it.  I think that most of the situations in which a child being crushed when 
they found out about Santa were cases in which the parents went to extremes to 
preserve the myth.

I think most every parent can tell when their child seriously doubts the 
Santa's existence.  When a child is asking questions about what does Santa eat 
for dinner, or what color socks he wears, s/he still believes.  When the 
questions get more direct, they don't.  At that point, I think that it's time 
to 'fess up.  I had "the discussion" with my son last year.

	Gary:  Is Santa real, or is he just some adult?

	Daddy: What do you think?

	Gary:  I think he's just some adult.

Clay

    In our household, we have two radically different religions, a pagan
    and a catholic tradition.  However, we don't have a problem.  The
    Solstice tree is set up as well as a creche, and the real and
    traditional Solstice/Christmas stories told.  
    
    I will not take the magic of "Santa or Father Solstice" away from my
    youngest.  (The oldest twigged when she was 7, but always plays along
    with the stockings, etc.)  There is nothing like the face of a
    youngster on her first winter holiday, seeing the candy canes that were
    hung "by Santa" on the tree,  or opening the stocking.  
    
    In our household, Santa fills stockings and hangs the canes on the
    tree.  The bigger presents come from Santa when the kids are smaller,
    and Parents as they grow older.
    
    Do I feel I am "lying" to my kids?  No, in fact I still believe in
    Santa and the magic of the holiday season.  If I go to my parents,
    Santa still fills my stocking as well.
    
    We do the toothfairy, Eostare rabbit, and all the little things that
    make magic happen for the seasons, and age.  More of a celebration of
    life, the seasons, and passages, for the kids, for the parents, and for
    freinds, than anything else.     
    

I read with some delight that some parents are not for taking
that bit of Christmas myth called Santa Claus away from children.
Like all childhood traditions, if the modern-day phrasees
succeeds in removing the Easter bunny, Haloween or Santa Claus,
then what will they fill in the myth with?

Sitting between the secular world and the world of the religious,
I find contempt for those who will not value the difference of
others; even if those "others" are fellow religious.

My $2 (that's 2 cents with inflation).

calvin

	Oh what a tangled web we weave
	when we practice to deceive

More and more, this is my attitude toward perpetuating the Santa myth.

Personally, I like Santa Claus a lot and always have.  I hope my daughter
grows to like Santa Claus.  But I have *no* desire to tangle myself and
others in lies about who he is so that she may (or may not!) enjoy some
fantasy feelings.  I have *yet* to hear a testimonial that someone who
grew up knowing the truth about Santa did *not* enjoy Christmas because
of it.  (I'm sure that there must be some, I just haven't heard them.)
I certainly *have* heard testimonials from those who were sorely disappointed
when they discovered that Santa wasn't real (including myself)

I think that my wife and I do a great service to our daughter by enjoying
our culture (including Santa) and not making some of that enjoyment
*dependent* on the belief of a lie.  We may never know for sure, but
my belief is that she'll enjoy Christmas just as much as if she had
believed the full Santa myth.

Of course, Christmas is about the birth of Jesus Christ and this is the
message we focus on.  Santa just isn't a big deal.  But even if he were,
I don't want to have to lie once or twice leading to lying 5 or 10 times
leading to lying 25 times... (which I observe other parents doing and
which I have later heard them say - Why did I ever start???)

Collis

    re .32
    
    Christmas, of itself, is a religious festival, but the holiday as
    practised is far more than that. It is a festival of winter, a festival
    of the year past, a festival of the year to come.  As such it is a
    fitting time to step back and consider others ... which makes it fit
    in with the Christian Christmas festival rather well.  In considering
    others, we like to give and receive gifts.  Part of that giving is
    based on the giving of Saint Nicholas or whatever name you chose to
    give him.
    
    So, when gifts are given from "Santa Claus", they are given in the name
    and selfless style of this man.  Now, that nice warm and fuzzy myth
    that has built up around Santa Claus is of itself harmless.  After all,
    it adds to the embellishment of the anonymous benefactor.  How often
    have you given gifts ananymously, and secretly (Valentines ???)?
    
    To that end, I see nothing wrong with Santa Claus, providing the myth
    is a myth shared when the time is right (i.e. when the doubts appear).
    When I was a child, I joined the myth and it was every bit as enjoyable
    as being on the receiving end.  Our eldest (9) has joined the Santa
    myth and very much enjoys it, and understands it.
    
    If we build bigger and bigger lies to perpetuate the myth then we are
    doing harm.  But the myth of itself is wonderful ... it actually helps
    to teach the idea of selfless giving from what I've seen with our
    children.
    
    Stuart

    If you are dead honest with a child about this, I guess you'd have to
    be the same way concerning the Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, Dan
    Quayle, and other ficticious characters.   8^)
    
    I think it's fine to tell a little one the Santa story, because they
    are too young to understand the religious meaning of the holiday.  As
    they get older (and wiser ...) I don't think it's emotionally harmful
    for them to be told or find out that Santa isn't real.  I got over it.
    
    Kids need to play - everything shouldn't have to be a learning experience.
         ^^^^
    
    Jerry

    I was going through V1 of Parenting and topic 113. discusses this
    same question.  It also pointed to an article which is located
    at 8.0 of V1 called "How Parents Can Remain Credible While Dealing
    With The Myth".  It's pretty good - especially if you're one of
    the people who want to pretend to your kids that there is a Santa
    Claus, but are feeling a little guilty about it.
    
    Donna
    

Re:          <<< Note 562.6 by TLE::RANDALL "Bonnie Randall Schutzman" >>>
                      -< white middle class Santa Claus >-

"right on" Bonnie!

    -Bill-

I wasn't sure whether to include this is the "Christmas Lessons Learned" or 
here.

I mentioned in an earlier note that Gary (7) last year had strong suspicions 
that Santa was "an adult dressed up in a suit".  Well this year, I asked him,


	Daddy:	Well, Gary, what do you think about Santa.  Do you believe
		in Santa?

	Gary:	(thoughtfully)  Yes, I believe in Santa.

	Daddy:	That's interesting.  Last year, you told me that you thought
		Santa was an adult dressed up in a suit.

	Gary:	Oh, that was 1989.  This is 1990.  I believe in Santa in 1990.
		I didn't believe in Santa in 1989.  I believed in Santa in 
		1987 and 1988.

	Daddy: (baffled) Oh.

I can't figure it out, unless he was hedging his bets, or something.  I was 
real careless this year.  Once he was helping me wrap presents.  As I 
finished, he put them under the tree.  Several times, I filled out a tag "To 
Soandso From Santa".

Also, I now think that intentionally leaving clues, like not disguising 
handwriting, and using the same wrapping paper is actually a good idea.  I 
think that it gives kids a feeling of accomplishment if they can figure it out 
from "clues".

Clay

    Kat, 17, who has known since she was 3 that the Santas in the
    store are adults dressed up in Santa suits, and always gets
    factual answers from her mother, informed me this year that she
    definitely believes in Santa Claus.  "Not literally, but he's
    still true."
    
    The conclusion I arrive at is that one should stay true to one's
    own beliefs, whatever those are, and let the child form his or her
    own opinions.  Which they'll do anyway.
    
    --bonnie

    Well, Clay (.37), Aaron was talking up Santa a lot in 1990, too, after
    indifference the last couple of years.  But it was clearly laid on for
    the benefit (?) of his little (?) brother.  I think that Aaron believes
    that Eric believes in Santa (although they may be conspiring to trick
    me into thinking this!).  Whereas my guess is that Eric "knows" better,
    but chooses to disregard this knowledge most of the time.  We did have
    an interesting conversation about how Santa would have a hard time with
    our chimney, which connects directly to an always hot coal stove.
    
    		- Bruce
    

>    Kat, 17,  . . . informed me this year that she
>    definitely believes in Santa Claus.  "Not literally, but he's
>    still true."

It would be so nice if they could leap from the literal belief to 
understanding the metaphor.  

I TRIED to explain it metaphorically to my then nine-year-old, but I could
tell it didn't take.

Clay

    I'll bet more of it took than you know, Clay.  There have been
    times I've tried to explain something to Kat and gotten nothing
    more than a blank look, and I've gone away feeling like I had been
    talking to the wall (or even made matters worse).  And then a year
    or two later she'll tell me, "You were right about x" or "Now I
    understand what you meant by Y."
    
    And it seems to matter very much that I explain what I think, and
    why I disagree with other people.  Even when she doesn't
    understand, or disagrees  with me, she seems to care that I took
    the time to explain it to her, rather than just telling her what
    to think, or saying "Because I'm the mommy ,that's why."  And this
    has been true from a very early age, long before she understood
    most of the issues.
    
    --bonnie