Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Robin,
    
    My son is also 10 monthes.  He knows the meaning of the word no.  We
    also do time out.  Our time out is in the play pen ("baby jail").  He
    now will say no when he goes to do something forbidden.  But he still
    tests us.
    
    Keep trying, she will learn.
    
    I use to try to re-direct his attention, then I realized it was giving
    him positive reinforcement by picking him up and playing with him
    whenever he did something wrong.
    
    In my opinion you are doing the right thing.  I don't slap Nicholas'
    hand, but I do believe guide lines have to be enforced some how in all
    childrens lives.
    
    Good Luck, if anyone has any other ideas I would love to hear them as
    well.
    
    Lisa
    

    You may not like this, but...
    
    Is 10 months old too young for time-outs?  IMHO...yup.  I wouldn't
    start time-outs much before two years old.
    
    If your child is having trouble with the silverware, put a latch on the
    drawer.
    
    

Time outs for 10 month old? They should be in a play pen or a
crib. If she can sit up, you could put her in the high chair.

cal

    When mine was about that age I did just as you have done but then
    I would place her in front of the tupperware cabinet or the
    drawer that held the dish towels.   She got very good at knowing
    what she could get into and what she couldn't.   I had to move
    the tupperware and the dish towels to places that were easy for her
    to reach into.

    I agree that 10 months is too young for timeout.  My son is 11 months
    and there's times when I certainly DO want to put him in "baby-jail" as
    a time out, but it's a time out for me not him.  How can it possibly
    work until they understand the meaning of it all??   I, like previous
    reply don't slap his hand, but do say stern no's and he usually
    persists (just out of curiosity I think).  I just move him to another
    area and re-direct his interest to a "legal toy".
    
    

I think 10 months is too young for her to understand timeouts (and I
think you've already reached this conclusion yourself).  I agree with
previous replies that at this age, your best bet is to say no, move the child
away from the silverware (or whatever), AND provide an attractive alternative.
If the silverware is more attractive than anything else, then, like Liz says,
make it inaccessible.  Can your daughter perhaps sit in her high chair with some
toys and safely watch you put away the dishes?  

Also, we tried hand slaps with David at around this age, and found that they had
no effect - didn't seem to help him remember that he was supposed to not do
something (in our case, the biggest problem was knocking all the books off
the bedside table).  So we stopped doing hand slaps.  Find out what works for
you - and expect to keep changing your techniques as the child gets older!

I think 10 months is a delightful age - hope you're enjoying it!
								cheryl

    I think Berk had his first time-out when he was about that age but he
    probably could have used them a couple time prior to that. I just
    didn't know whether he would understand. I will never forget his first
    one - he was so stunned that I was going to make him sit (in the middle
    of the floor, facing a large wall with very little of interest for
    him). I didn't have to stay with him and make him sit there - he was
    too shocked to move. I am going to qualify this all with the fact that
    Berk walked at 9 months and he was not one for being "jailed" in his
    playpen or crib, so I think I already went through the stage you
    are going through right now. At your point in time, I encouraged him to
    "help" with things like the dishes. It takes a child of that abilty
    about 10 mintues ot put away a plastic bowl (which we kept in a lower
    cabinet and he was allowed to play with). We did keep stressing what
    things were okay to touch and what was off limits. Maybe try a
    "softer", more teaching approach for her (like you seem to be doing)but 
    only you can really tell if time-outs are right for her ability and age. 
    
    It can be very frustrating when you are trying to accomplish things and
    the little ones just don't seem to grasp the "importance" of what you
    are doing or touching. That's why they need things that look like
    your's but aren't really. If a dishwasher is a favorite for her, it
    might only take a plastic bowl (keep in on the counter) to keep her
    busy "helping" Mom. 
    
    Hang in there.
    Andrea  

    Well, Robin, at least Kati's not climbing onto the open dishwasher door
    and pulling the glass off the top rack!  :-)
    
    Seriously, we have this problem as well and even at 14 months, I think
    Jason is too young to understand timeout.  Besides, I was under the
    impression that timeout was to be used to settle an out-of-control 
    child, not as a discipline technique (this is under debate in another
    note).   I confess that I am not a good disciplinarian so my solution
    to this problem is to do the majority of the loading/unloading of the
    dishwasher after the baby is in bed or when he is playing contently
    in another room.   I think placing the baby in the playpen until you
    finish up is a good idea as well (but we don't have a playpen set
    up).   I think they'd learn after several occurences the cause and
    effect of their actions.
    
    Carol

    We didn't start using time-out until Eric was 1.5 years old.  Even
    then, I think it is a little too early.  Eric also liked to play
    in the kitchen at that age.  What we did was to put some plastic
    bowls and spoons in the lowest drawer which he could reach.  
    This usually kept him occupied, while I was cooking or doing dishes.
    Sometimes, I will just move the playpen into the kitchen.
    This way, we both could see each other, and Eric could play with
    his toys and I could get some work done.
    
    Wendy

>    Well, Robin, at least Kati's not climbing onto the open dishwasher door
>    and pulling the glass off the top rack!  :-)
    
    But David, 13 months, is . . . 
    
    I'm afraid we take the lax approach of just removing him from the
    dangerous things when he gets too close to the silverware or
    easily breakable glasses, or climbing up onto the door.  But we
    let him play with the plastic glasses and such.  If he's really a
    nuisance we remove him from the situation -- usually one of us is
    available to take him into another room, but if not, the high
    chair so he can watch is usually the best choice.
    
    I figure that if he's this interested in the dishes now, maybe in
    a month or two I can trick him into helping out. . .
    
    --bonnie

    Well my youngest son, Michael, is 14.5 months and he DOES NOT know the
    word NO.  Our house is child proofed, and has been for nearly 4 yrs. 
    The only things he can get into are the buttons on the TV (I can deal
    with this) and the lamp cords!! Michael keeps going back to the plugs
    and pulling out the cords.  This really scares me with those drool
    covered hands and all.  I have even caught him pulling out the outlet
    covers in my kitchen.  That little bugger started this 2 months ago and
    I don't know what to do anymore.  If I close the doors too long, the
    rooms get COLD and usually my older son forget to re-close the door if
    he goes in the room.  I have tapped his hands, told him no, and moved
    him to something else, but he ALWAYS goes back.
    
    Any ideas out there???
    
    Thanks,
    Donna

re: .11

I'll swear there was a discussion about this, but I don't remember where.

There are devices available that prevent cords from being pulled from outlets. 
Hard to describe, but it's a cover that fits over the outlet _and_ the plug, 
held in place by a very long screw.  There's a hole in it for the cord 
to come out.  It's not suitable for situations in which you are constantly 
putting a cord in and pulling it out, since you have to unscrew the cover to 
plug or unplug anything.  But it works fine for lamps.


Clay

    
    For distraction in the kitchen, I recommend a lightweight saucepan,
    with lid, in a low cabinet or drawer.  Much more satisfactory noises
    than with plastic bowls or the like.  A set that nest would be even
    better.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    Re:.11
    
    in addition to the covers which Clay has mentioned, there are special
    covers available for outlets that are plugged/unplugged more
    frequently.  These look more or less like the 'normal' outlet covers,
    except that each opening contains a sheild that will accept a 2 or
    3-prong plug.  There are holes in the sheild which look like the holes
    in the outlet,  but are offset from the outlet by 45 degrees (WAG) to
    prevent enquiring minds from sticking an object into the hole and
    directly into the outlet. These sheilds are spring-loaded and are
    designed to rotate; the idea being to insert the plug slightly, rotate
    the plug & sheild to line up with the outlet, and then push the prongs
    thru to the outlet itself. When the plug is removed, the sheild
    'springs' back into its offset position. We only use a couple, but so
    far our 13-month old son hasn't figured it out...:^).
    
    re: Base note & replies.
    
    Since timeout's for 13-month olds don't seem to work (at least in our
    case), how *do* you shape the behavior of someone so young? 
    
    Nick's been getting into everything lately, and doesn't seem to
    understand the word "NO". We can distract him away from the 'temporary'
    situations (i.e. unloading the dishwasher, putting groceries away,
    folding clothes, etc...). But how do folks deal with situations
    involving more permanent objects: climbing onto dining room chairs, 
    playing with or slapping the TV set, standing on the couch,etc., etc,...
    
    We remove him from the situation as soon as possible, and we explain to 
    him that he "shouldn't be doing such-and-such" (he listens intently, but 
    I'm sure he's only aware of the tone, and not the words...), and we give 
    him positive reinforcement when he stops doing something 'illegal', but 
    sooner or later (usually sooner :^}), he goes back to doing the same 
    thing. We've slapped his hands in extreme cases, or when he's been 
    especially persistent, but this, too, has only a short-term effect on
    his behavior.
    
    Any thoughts or advice?
    
    Freddie

    
    At JA's 1-year checkup, the Pedi evaluated her development and said her
    actions displayed the fact that not only was she "ahead of most kids
    her age in development", she was also clearly displaying some signs of
    "manipulation" ... he said we'd see some "early Terrible 2 actions"
    soon and to brace ourselves and accept the fact that she's not an
    infant, but a "TODDLER" ... and toddlers are well aware of what's going
    on, they can set the stage, carry out the action AND manipulate the
    consequences!
    
    He suggested to avoid spanking and try a "box" - something other than
    her playpen, crib, highchair, etc. -- so she wouldn't see those things
    in a negative way (means of punishment at times when they're not!).
    
    We have not used a "box" ... yes, JA has had a few hand slaps (not
    hard) and only for REAL SERIOUS stuff (like the stove buttons [she
    melted my enamel tea pot to the stove coil AND nearly set a potholder
    on fire!], etc.), she's never been restrained or "time-out'd" (YET!).
    
    I can count on one hand the times I've slapped her.  I first try to
    reason with her (with tone, action, etc. -- not screaming, just
    harsh conversation AND KEEP EYE CONTACT!) ... SHE DOES understand! ...
    and if she chooses to "continue", I remove her from the environment
    (usually "gate" her in her room where she can play, turn on Teddy
    Rexpin, etc. -- or cry and carry-on -- her choice! -- until we BOTH
    settle down).
    
    When JA's really getting to me (and at 14 months she is learning all
    the right buttons to push), I clearly hear the Pedi's message "she's
    going to start getting testy, fresh, etc. ... and you had best have a
    game plan for CONTROL, as once you lose CONTROL, both you and she will
    be in BIG trouble ..." ... but I haven't quite reached the point where
    I have to bring out any heavy artilliary (spanking, "box", time-out, 
    take things away, etc.) YET.
    
    We seem to be able to control JA with lecturing, diversion and a little
    hand slap for only the ultimate bad things with severe consequences
    (fire, etc.).  She used to open and climb in the dishwasher ... eat dog
    food ... clean off end tables ... bathe in the toilet ... none of which
    she does anymore.  But she's moved onto doing other "unacceptable"
    things, which we are now working on curbing.  She's learning and with
    time, making progress!
    
    So I hope we don't have to resort to any "heavy artillary" for a while
    ... save it for the truly, testy Terrible_2's!
    
    Dottie
          

    Prevention.  Latches on cabinets. Covers across fronts of low
    bookcases and record cabinets (pegboard, held on with bow-tied string, for
    parental access to contents).  And my one real innovation here, the
    flexi-barrier.
    
    This was a collection of pegboard slices, each 2' by 4'.  They were
    connected together in sets of 3 to 6 pieces using small hinges (with
    bolts, rather than screws).  They can then be used as portable,
    reconfigurable barricades, to fence off "safe" from "unsafe" areas. 
    Just zig-zagged across the floor, they stand on their own, and are more
    than adequate to constrain an infant or toddler, but not a grownup (or
    pet).  And can also be folded up into almost no space at all when the
    occasion calls for it.  I would want something more secure to protect
    the top of a stairway (for example), but these met all of my
    one-floor-only problems. I needed one that was real long because my
    living/dining room is a giant 24' by 28', and typically 1/3rd of it was
    walled off.
    
    			- Bruce

    Time-outs are not appropriate for a ten month old, IMO.  They are too
    young to connect the sitting of oneself down in a corner, or whatever,
    and some behaviour they just performed, which you deemed inappropriate. 
    Too young!
    
    Now 1 1/2 to 2 is another story.  At that age a child can make the
    connection.  As for what do you do in lieu of time-outs, you remove
    them from the situation, put them in a safe place, and distract them,
    or finish up whatever it is you're doing.  My son plays with the stuff
    in the dishwasher all the time, he pulls everything out, then tries to
    climb in it.  I tolerate it for as long as I can, then when I can stand
    no more, I put him out of the kitchen, put the gate across the doorway
    and let him whine.  It's more ME that needs the time-out than him.
    
    And while I don't recommend this, my kids have gotten their share of
    "buzzes" from an electrical outlet or two.  They persist, and persist,
    and persist, and finally get a shock, and never touch it again. 
    Sometimes that is what it takes to learn. Although with my youngest, 14
    mo., he has shown no interest in electrical outlets.
    
    Put furniture in front of the outlets, try the kidproofing plugs.  I've
    moved a toybox or other piece of furniture in front of my VCR to
    prevent Josh from getting close to it.  He can see it, but now he can't
    reach it.  Remember, be creative, you don't necessarily have to cover
    something up or remove it entirely, just make it inaccessible for your
    child in some way.
    

re .14:
>    Since timeout's for 13-month olds don't seem to work (at least in our
>    case), how *do* you shape the behavior of someone so young? 
    
You're far better off changing their environment than trying to shape their
behavior at this age.  They understand a lot better by 1 1/2 to 2 years old
(at which point they do just as many unacceptable things, but they know
they're naughty!), so consider storing things away and rearranging furniture
for the relatively short time that they're getting into trouble just by
exploring.  My neighbor completely rearranged her living room (put all
lightweight tables behind big heavy chairs, moved the couch several feet away
from the window, things like that) when her daughter was around this age.
A technique that seems to work for me is to leave a 6" layer of toys on the
floor at all times, so there's plenty of distraction (ok, I admit it, this
was really my son's idea).  :)  I don't have any suggestions for keeping a
child this age off chairs and couches - I let my son freely do that sort of
climbing.  I did find that I spent some days constantly plucking him off the
top of the dining room table, though.  Moving the chairs well away from the
table helped for that.

			cheryl

This is off the subject of timeouts for 10-month-olds, but I can't help 
responding to the base note.  The noter is concerned about his 10-month-old 
playing in the dishwasher.

That's Michael's favorite toy in the kitchen. While Pat's getting dinner,
she opens the door (our silverware basket is in the door) and Michael
"helps" Mom by unloading the dishwasher.  She removes any sharp knives,
kitchen shears, etc. and lets him go to it.  He throws all the silverware
on the floor, then plays with the thingie that goes around and sprays
water, opens and closes the detergent holder, and generally entertains
himself.  He's close where he can be watched, and yet he's happy and
doesn't require constant attention.  One thing we do is make sure he has a
binkie in his mouth when he's playing in the dishwasher, so he doesn't put
the dirty dishes in his mouth.

Before we started doing that, his favorite kitchen activity was "unloading" 
Pat's cookbooks and wine.  One end of our island has shelves for cookbooks 
and the other end is a wine rack.  Michael was very fond of both ends, and 
drove Pat crazy tearing up her cookbooks and endangering himself with wine 
bottles.  The dishwasher has proven to be a godsend by distracting him from 
the other "interesting" kitchen activities.

Offering him cabinets full of Tupperware and drawers full of dish towels 
succeeded in distracting him from the more fun activities for about two 
nights.  After that, he couldn't have cared less about either.

Steve 

    re .19
    
    >>She removes any sharp knives, kitchen shears, etc. and lets him 
    >>go to it.  He throws all the silverware on the floor
    
    So you do a midnight silverware load?  Get up before dawn to unload it? 
    Or get Michael to throw it all from the floor to a dishpan, and get him to
    wash, rinse, dry and put it away???!!!  Sheesh, even if I just washed
    the floor, I wouldn't want Alex to think it was OK to sling utensils
    underfoot.
    
    L.W.

>    So you do a midnight silverware load?  Get up before dawn to unload it? 
>    Or get Michael to throw it all from the floor to a dishpan, and get him to
>    wash, rinse, dry and put it away???!!!  Sheesh, even if I just washed
>    the floor, I wouldn't want Alex to think it was OK to sling utensils
>    underfoot.
    
    I don't understand the question about a midnight silverware load. 
    Michael goes to bed at 7:00pm, and Pat just picks up the silverware and
    puts it back in the dishwasher.  As far as dirtying the floor, she gets
    *all* the food off the silverware before it goes into the dishwasher,
    so there's really nothing to get onto the floor unless it's a little
    water, which she wipes up.  And as far as getting up at dawn to unload,
    again I don't understand.  Pat is at home all day, and she runs the
    dishwasher and empties it every afternoon after she and Michael have
    lunch so it'll be empty when she starts dinner.
    
    Steve

     
    I didn't understand .20 either but decided that the writer just
    had different standards of what was "OK" behaviour than I did and
    was dead set against saving this chore to do during nap or bedtime
    (which is what I think I recommended doing).   Different strokes
    for different folks!
    
    cj/

    Throwing silverware around the kitchen while I'm trying to work
    isn't acceptable behavior in our house, either.  The chances of me
    tripping on something -- like David -- while carrying something
    hot are too high, and I think I have a right to a safe workplace
    that overrides David's right to have fun.  If my kitchen were 
    better designed, so I didn't have to walk around so much (our
    dishwasher is between the fridge and the stove) I might not care
    whether he emptied the silverware rack. 
    
    We left the drawer under the stove (which has pots and pans) and
    the cabinet that holds the baking dishes unlocked so David can
    pull out the contents and bang them together and so on.  The good
    stuff (the teflon pan with the glass lid, for instance) are in a
    locked cabinet.  
    
    --bonnie

    OK, ok.  Re midnight dishwashing, my sarcasm ran away with me (again).
    
    My fixation with the floor is *not* whether food will dirty the floor! 
    It's whether the floor will dirty the flatware!  It's not OK for Alex
    to put silverware (or anything else that goes in or near our mouths) on
    the floor.  To me, a floor must always be assumed to be *dirty* -
    people walk on it, they track germs and dirt and lord-knows-what in on
    it.  And the reason I said "even if I'd just washed the floor" is that
    I wouldn't want a child to think it's OK to throw stuff on the floor! 
    Period!
    
    Not only that, it's NOT ok to make Mom or Dad or anyone repeat a task
    for no reason.  I realize that it doesn't burn a lot of calories or
    take an inordinate amount of time to put the silverware back in the
    d/w.  But it doesn't have to happen at ALL!
    
    Leslie 

    I still don't get it (or I'm an extremely negligient mom).  My son,
    at 14 months, still puts toys and what-not in his mouth for a good
    chew now and then.   Certainly, most of those toys touch the floor
    from time to time and some of them are stored on the floor for that
    matter.    At least the flatware gets picked up and then cycled 
    through the dishwasher before we eat off it....more than I can say
    for his toys!
    
    cj/

    Bonnie, I agree with you about the danger of tripping if the little one
    is playing in the traffic pattern.  Our kitchen is arranged such that
    the sink, stove, refrigerator, and island work area are all to the
    right of the dishwasher.  When Michael's playing there, he isn't really
    in the traffic pattern.
    
    > It's not OK for Alex to put silverware (or anything else that goes in
    > or near our mouths) on the floor.  To me, a floor must always be assumed to be *dirty* -
    > people walk on it, they track germs and dirt and lord-knows-what in on
    > it.  
    
    Still does not compute.  What do you do if a piece of flatware
    accidentally falls on the floor?  Throw it away?  I suspect you run it
    through the dishwasher, exactly the way we do the pieces that Michael
    puts on the floor?  I fail to see the difference.
    
    > And the reason I said "even if I'd just washed the floor" is that
    > I wouldn't want a child to think it's OK to throw stuff on the floor! 
    > Period!
    
    Well, Pat has a choice of allowing him to play with the dishwasher,
    throw her cookbooks on the floor and eat them, pull bottles of wine out
    of the wine rack onto the floor, or put him in his "crypen" and let him
    scream.  That time of day he's tired and cranky anyway, and it seems
    harmless to us to let him occupy himself with something he enjoys until
    time for bed.
    
    As someone said earlier, to each his own I guess.
    
    > Not only that, it's NOT ok to make Mom or Dad or anyone repeat a task
    > for no reason.  I realize that it doesn't burn a lot of calories or
    > take an inordinate amount of time to put the silverware back in the
    > d/w.  But it doesn't have to happen at ALL!
    
    We repeat tasks all the time.  Pat (and I on the weekends) probably
    pick up Michael's toys at least four or five times a day.  When he's a
    little older we certainly intend to make him pick them up himself, but
    at almost 10 months we don't feel he's quite ready for that yet.  And
    we don't mind doing it.  Yes, you're right, it doesn't *have* to
    happen, but we choose to do it.
    
    Steve

    I think this is another case of "choosing your battles". I'm with
    Steve and Pat -- it didn't bother me when my baby pulled out the 
    harmless stuff, even if it meant rewashing it, because he was happily
    occupied while I was doing the necessary chores. I'd rather have a
    happy, busy kid and a messy house (which I do, believe me) -- just my
    choice. We live in a small apartment and don't have a lot of
    alternative play areas.  
    
    Lucy
    

    .26> Still does not compute.  What do you do if a piece of flatware
    .26> accidentally falls on the floor? ... I fail to see the difference.
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
         There's the difference.  I didn't allow Alex to dump out the
    contents of her dresser drawers, or mine, either--no matter how happy
    it would have made her.
    
    Leslie
    
    

    Boy, are we off the topic! But I couldn't help but agree with Leslie.
    The idea is to avoid *teaching* the child by allowing him to do
    something, that it is an okay thing to do. And I suspect that it will
    not always be okay with you if he throws silverware, clean or  dirty,
    on the floor. The question is *what* he's throwing on the floor, not
    that he *is* throwing something on the floor.
    
    Still, if that is your only choice, I can see why you'd choose it over
    ripping cookbooks or breaking wine bottles!
    
    Did I understand you right, Leslie?
    
    --dave--

    Thank you Dave, you expressed in few words what I've been obfuscating
    with many!
    
    My living room floor was also always knee-deep in baby toys, but I
    guess I just consider that a condition that comes with the (infant-
    in-the-house) territory.  Picking *that* stuff up, repeatedly, was a Mom
    job.  But I think things like dumping clothes out of dresser drawers
    (I'm not accusing any of *your* kids of this--I'm just remembering
    Alex's demonic glee) or throwing silverware on a kitchen floor are
    deliberate acts making chaos out of order, and making work where
    there's no need.  (Besides the dirty-silverware issue.)
    
    Sorry to have been chief perpretrator of the flatware-rathole.  I wish 
    I had such clear-cut feelings on, say, Desert Shield....
    
    Leslie

    
    ( In re: .30
    
    	How can you be sure this isn't a ratware flathole?
    
    		- Bruce  )

    .30> ( In re: .30 How can you be sure this isn't a ratware flathole? ...)
    
    ( If I were a college hacker maybe it would be a fratware LAThole....)
    
    Anyway I thought you all might be amused to hear that I got some karmic
    comeuppance this evening, in the form of a thoroughly peanut-butter-and-
    jellied knife which had been carefully placed into the clean knife
    section of the silverware drawer by my flawless daughter.  {:-P  The
    knife lost no time consorting intimately with its previously pristine
    peers, so by the time I opened the drawer there was a crusty band of
    insolent blades leering up at me.  I had it coming.
    
    Leslie 

    I was sitting here reading this, trying to picture what you're going
    through, I also remember fondly the first time AJ discovered, about
    that same age, the cabinet with the pot, pans and lids and at first 
    gingerly pulling them out and then KABOOM they all came out at once!  
    He was just glowing, and I guess I was too that he had decided to start 
    exploring the kitchen in a "safe" place.  His second favorite spot was at 
    his godparents' home, they kept a cabinet full of those Travel-mugs, which
    have *lots* of "pieces-parts", bases, cups and lids all made of plastic
    and a few odd tupperware pieces in that cabinet too.  My sister took a
    two shelf bookcase and stocked the bottom shelf with tupperware and
    opague cotainers with colorful and "shakable" things, that worked like
    a charm for her.
    
    I too recall a note on keeping the little ones busy and safe, and
    covering plugs.  Guess we're both loosing it Bruce!
    
    Lyn

    I've done a few searches and haven't come up with this one...so
    I'm asking it here
    
    How do you discipline a very determined 1 year old.  By discipline
    I mean when I tell her NO, she laughs, thinks its a game and repeats
    the action.  I tell her in a serious manner, raising my voice, and
    giving stern eye contact.  I've told her 6 or 7 times and then had
    to physically remove her from the room, otherwise she would continue
    the behavior...for example, sticking her fingers in the VCR.
    
    I believe in the 'time out' theory but will it work with a 1 year old,
    has anyone had experience?
    
    A second part of the question is regarding my home-care sitter.  How
    do people handle discipline of their children from their sitters?  Do
    you allow taps on the bottom, time out (keeping in mind she has just
    turned 1)?
    
    Any replies would certainly be welcome.
    
    Thanks
    Elena
    

    
    It has been my experience that true disciplining of a 1 year old
    is not really possible and would reserve the raising voices, etc
    for when you really mean (i.e. where safety is concerned).   At 
    this age, I think distraction is far more effective.  I know that
    others think that time-out is good at this age, but I found that 
    it wasn't really an effective punishment *for my son* until about
    18 months of age.    Currently (22mos), we use "I'm going to count 
    to 5" and he stops whatever he's  doing usually by 2!
    
    I'm not sure what you question about the sitter is.  But, the key to
    any discipline is consistency.   So, you might want to discuss with
    your sitter how you'd like it to be handled.   We usually end up
    using the method that our sitter uses (unless we disagree with it)
    since she always has such good ideas!
    
    Carol 

    let me clarify the point about the sitter...
    
    My home-care sitter has asked me how she should discipline my child
    and I'm torn.  I usually tell my child NO several times and if that
    doesn't work I take her from the situation (ex. leave the room and go to
    another room).  The sitter can't do this as she has 4 children all
    together (2 of her own, my daughter and another 1 year old -  ALL 
    children must be in the same room).  She thought making her sit in a
    chair for 5 minutes would teach her NO meant NO, but my daughters very
    active and I doubt if she'd sit still for 5 minutes.  I don't want the
    sitter spanking her, so I'm stuck for alternatives I guess.
    
    I could suggest the distraction idea and see how that goes.
    Thanks for your suggestion.

    5 minutes is a very long time for any child, never mind a 1 yr old. The
    general rule for timeout is 1 minute per the age of the child.
    
    Distraction is really a more viable alternative at this age.
    

Ditto, Carol ... At 12-20 months of age, "time out" only got Juli more 
vocal and determined, more frustrated -- and Mom madder!  I, too, found
that distraction and "reasoning" (as best you can with a pre-toddler ...
AND TODDLER for that matter!) was the most successful.  

Unfortunately ...
until they're about 2, they really don't remember, so the incidents keep
reoccuring -- although they're "spaced out" with time (at 1 year, the incident
would reoccur 10X daily, but at 18 months of age, the incident might only
reoccur once daily ... once weekly ... and sometimes Juli would FINALLY
remember it was not allowed).

Jim/I do NOT spank.  Juli's 22 months of age and has tested our patience
to the limits (she, too, is very active, persistent, determined and easily
challenged by ANYTHING!).  We found that we had to 1) catch her IN THE ACT;
2) hold both her hands in ours; 3) make eye contact (this was important!);
and then 4) speak in a harsh, "I mean business" tone ... then remove the
object OR remove her from it (stove buttons).  If this reoccured over and
over and over (within a short time), then worst case is we would "swat"
(not slap or spank) her hand and always make eye contact and speak.

Over time, yelling will be TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE.  Yeah, at first Juli would
become very loveable and affectionate ... but I could see myself getting
suckered into a trap of becoming a vocal, obnoxious scream-head.  It was
very hard not to resort to yelling, but I did!  I do not yell.  I take
action!  (and Juli's more fearful of the "action" that the "yelling" -
which she would have learned to tune out in time!).

Every homecare provider is different, but our first provider DID believe
in screaming at the kids ... and DID believe in slapping bottoms (and she
does believe in spanking her kids -- and I've seen her slap the bottoms
of kids she's babysitting).  I am deadset against this!  I told her many
times that I would not tolerate her "hitting" my child ... but I also
know this fell on deaf ears (since SHE told me she slapped Juli for not
allowing her to tie her shoes!).

Jim/I have not done any "timeouts" yet (Juli's now 22 months old).  Juli
is still responsive to the above "action taken".  We will probably start
using timeouts when the above action is ineffective.  We do not ever use
the highchair or crib as a mechanism to "keep her put" while Mommy calms
down.  In the very few incidences when Juli HAS hit my nerve endings,
I pass her off to Jim and "I" GLADLY take the timeout!

At the learning center, the kids sit on a chair.  Jim/I have not seen
"anyone" on the chair in the many times we've been there, though.
We have seen the instructor(s) approach a child with a stern warning --
and if Child_A takes a toy from Child_B, then they make CHILD_A return
it (the instructor doesn't ... they make the child do it).

Juli tends to follow the activity of the other kids (if they climb
in their sleeping bags for "naptime", SHE WILL!).  So she gets good
behavior reports from daycare mostly because she "follows the older kids
who already KNOW the rules".  When Jim/I attend parents get-togethers
at her daycare, I actually see a totally different child than the one
that lives with us!

So, I believe a lot has to do with what age your child is compared to the
ages of the other children ...  Juli benefits from being the runt --
she follows along and the other kids take her under their wing.  I also 
find that Juli will respond and behave much better with others outside our
home (daycare instructors, Nana, a friend's Mom ...) than with Jim/I 
(where's she's more comfortable with testing and RE-testing the limits).

I also think that Jim/I are more in sync with our current providers'
attitude towards what is acceptable behavior, how to control the kids
and how to discipline the kids ... than we were with our previous provider
(eg. I can't imagine "losing" it because Juli didn't want her shoes tied!
-- even if it were the end of a very long, difficult day!)

Dottie

    Gee, have you got my son over there?
    
    Distraction is effective when it works, but David (20 months) is
    extremely focussed, and when he gets his mind on something, he
    doesn't get it off.  I have taken him for long walks to get him
    away from something he doesn't want to do, and as soon as we get
    back in the house he goes straight for whatever it was he was
    doing that got him in trouble in the first place.
    
    Sitting him down for about 15-20 seconds, holding both hands in
    front, and telling him firmly, "The stereo isn't a toy.  When you
    change all the buttons it makes it sound funny for everybody else,
    and it's expensive besides" seems to be finally getting through to
    him.
    
    --bonnie

    I have both a one year old (actually, almost 14 months) and a home
    sitter (nanny in our home).  
    
    At our house, discipline for Laura is "no" and a distraction.  She has
    the same reaction as your child...she laughs and goes about what she's
    doing.  But the distraction works.  At a year I focus more on shaping
    the environment rather than "disciplining" the child.  What I can
    remove, I do.  
    
    As for time out, I don't use it before the child is around 2 years old 
    and then at the "standard" rate...one minute per year.  
    
    I've found with my first that the distraction technique stops working
    as the child gets older and can remained focused.  Then it's up to
    parents to be *really* creative...
    
    I don't allow my sitter to "tap" my kids.  She uses "time out chair"
    for Elizabeth (almost 4) and distraction for Laura (almost 14 months).
    So far...there hasn't been a problem.
    
    Regards,
    Lois
    

We've started using timeouts for Michael (age 17 months) and they seem to 
be working nicely.  We can't just sit him down somewhere, though -- this   
child never stops moving, and he'd be up and away before our backs were 
turned.  We put him in his "crypen" and set the microwave timer for 1-1/2 
minutes. He fusses, screams, and yells.  However, he knows what the work 
"timeout" means now, and the mere mention of it will often (but certainly 
not always!) stop undesirable behavior. 

Steve

    I have a question that would seem to be a logical string to this.
    
    When does the daycare provider's discipline stop and your's take over.
    The situation in question is NOT meant to be critical of mine or any
    other provider, but to clarify something that makes ME feel awkward.
    
    Sometimes while picking up our son (4.5years) at daycare he gets
    excited, runs (which isn't allowed inside) and other type of things. 
    The teacher threatens him with a timeout before he can leave for the
    day.  Or sometimes when I drop him off in the morning he goes running
    in, without dropping off his lunchbox and backpack in the proper
    places, and is again threatened with a timeout.
    
    I'm totally agreeing with what the teacher is doing, but just not sure
    what I ought to be doing, especially when he looks to me after being
    threatened with timeout, for a reaction.  I just feel sort of awkward,
    and sometimes wish I were invisible when this is happening.  Where does
    the break from parent to teacher and vice versa happen?
    
    Lyn

    I think that you should provide the discipline when you witness the
    action and you will remain with him long enough for the discipline.  In
    other words, in the morning, perhaps you should warn him of the
    possibility that _his teacher_ may give him a timeout if he doesn't
    stop __________.  In the afternoon, you administer the
    warnings/threats/whatever and follow through.  I think I'd just tell 
    the director (or the teacher herself, if you have a good rapport) that 
    you prefer to handle the discipline when you witness the action, and 
    that sometimes when you pick him up in the afternoon you might not 
    have time for timeout, which would make hers an idle threat.
                                        

Kristen (Cox):

I think this is the FIRST time we have ever disagreed!!!

First off, I can't really agree on TIMEOUTS for "running" to/from 
Mommy/Daddy at daycare.  Come on!!  I'd sure be excited to see my 'friends'
OR my Mommy/Daddy ... and the natural instinct is to run.  I'm sure running
is not allowed at Juli's daycare, HOWEVER, I've NEVER seen them reprimand
a child for "running" to/from Mommy/Daddy  (and I'd be a bit 'set back'
if they did!) ... and almost EVERY kid at Juli's daycare DOES run to
Mommy/Daddy!

Juli's daycare also has a "typical process" ... hang up your coat, put your
box in the refrigerator, come through the door (and close it), etc.,
HOWEVER, since Jim/I usually spend a few minutes getting Juli settled in,
the instructors pretty much let Jim/I & Juli do what we're comfortable with.  
I have seen MANY A KID wearing his/her coat or hat and carrying their
lunch boxes about, ESPECIALLY if they're feeling a little "down and out"
because Mom/Dad just left.  Juli's instructors ARE VERY UNDERSTANDING about
this and helps the kids "finish the process" AFTER they've calmed down and
settled in (even if it takes to 11:30 am).  I can see the boxes being a
potential hazard (in the play area), but a hat on a kid's head?

As for "who" disciplines ... 
I've been in a situation where Juli was clearly wrong or breaking the
rules "while on daycare's turf" (eg. taking a toy from another child, etc.).
I am NOT offended if her instructor steps in and corrects Juli (in my
presence).  Juli is on daycare turf and daycare providers do have the
right to handle the situation "whether or not" Mommy/Daddy is present.
I may correct Juli "before" the instructor makes a move, however, there
have been times when the instructor beat me to the punch (either I'm
not aware Juli broke a rule OR I just wasn't quick enough).  Either way,
when on daycare turf, I pretty much accept what Juli's instructor does
(keeping in mind that Juli's instructor is very easy going and very fair,
so when the instructor does make a move it's usually very clear cut and
dry that Juli's wrong!).

Jim/I also want to know the daycare rules we don't break the rules ... or
worst yet, set Juli up to break the rules.  There have been some instances where
we didn't "understand" why they have a certain rule, but upon questioning
it, Jim/I have always felt comfortable with their reasoning.

I guess I'm comfortable with the disciplining in my presence ... but NOT
comfortable with the running and the "following the process" issues.

Just my 2 cents!
Dottie 

Dottie,

I'm not so sure that we disagree (or disagree totally, anyways).

IMO timeouts for a 10-mo-old are totally unacceptable (the topic of this note).
And I also disagree with the specific example that was given for the teacher
who administered the timeout.  That sounds much too rigid and cold.

My answer was really geared toward who AND when the timeouts are administered.
I have no problem with the daycare teachers providing discipline for my
children.  (Caviat:  if I don't agree with the rules I have a say)   HOWEVER,
there are times when I show up at daycare, and have somewhere we all have to
be - I AM IN A HURRY!  If I have to stop and wait for the teacher to follow
through with her threat of a timeout, then I am even more late to get where
we are going.  I would rather assure her that I'll handle the discipline, and
then do it.

FWIW (okay, even if $0!)

Ditto, Kristen.

Glad to see you're back into PARENTING (notesfile, that is!!!!!).

Have a fun day.

Dottie