Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Sounds like Matt at 2 to 3 years old.  If the tone is beligerent
    as it sure seems to be I would quickly let him know that it is not
    acceptable to talk to Mom/Dad like that using my tone of voice to
    make my point.  If that didn't work I would take him to his room
    for 15 to 20 minutes.  After he calmed down and could come out of his
    room I would explain to him exactly WHY he was sent to his room to
    reinforce the reason.  It probably won't work instantly.. he is testing
    his limits and needs to see that it produces CONSISTENT unpleasant
    results for him.  It sounds like normal behavior to me.... but you
    must consistently express your displeasure at it with consequences
    to him.  It works with Matt. I hope it works for you.
    
    Jeff

Is Sammy at your house? He smarts off with Judy but I am pretty
swift in getting him to the corner (she is too soft). Last sunday
at church, he said that I can't have him sit in the corner
(church is round). He found himself sitting in the middle of
the isle! (after church, that is).

calvin

                       <<< Note 488.0 by ICS::NELSONK >>>
                    -< Smart-alecky 2.5 yr. old/any ideas >-

>> This morning, he called me
>>    a pain in the ass.

I'm sorry Kate, but I'm giggling up a storm!

Liz

    >> This morning, he called me a pain in the ass
    
    Funny thing that this isn't so funny when they say it back to us!
    
    Normal behavior for the age.  Getting angry will only give him the type
    of response he wants from you. I tell mine that this behavior is not
    funny to me, and if they really want to treat me or anyone else this
    way they can be by themselves. Have him sit somewhere by himself
    (preferably a place that has no toys or anything he can amuse himself
    with) for a while to "consider" whether he wants to do this again.  I
    usually use his chair at the kitchen table...he can hear the others
    having fun in the next room, but cannot join in until the oven timer
    rings.  Ten minutes can be a VERY long time!
    
    -LB

    
    The epithet of choice this month in Eric's preschool class is
    "bumhead."  At least that's what he's using when he gets mad at me!
    
    		- Bruce
    

    I wonder if any of you are concerned about how to balance this good
    manners and "not speaking to mommy and daddy that way," with speaking
    out when adults make the wrong demands on children.
    
    I think one of the issues in child sexual abuse is that children are
    taught to obey ALL adults.  Don't you think there is a danger to over-
    teaching politeness to children?
    
    I remember my son telling me when he was about 11 that he didn't know
    he could hang up on the man making lewd remarks (about me) on the
    telephone.
    
    Actually, I think most parents are, in fact, pains in the ass.
    
    Briana

    RE "bumhead"
    
    My sitter has allowed the kids to call their toys "bummy" when they get
    angry rather than throw them. Apparently "bummy" comes from TM ninja
    turtle-world.
    
    Well, sometimes this carries over to calling me or the dog bummy -
    we've had a talk about using not-so-nice words about people vs. toys...
    
    Ryan, too, is 2.something now, and smartmouths at times - what I try to
    suggest is that if he's mad, go hit a pillow or kick a ball for a while
    - don't get nasty at people.   A woman told me the other evening that
    she bought a Yogi blow-up bear punching bag for her 2 yr. old son, so
    he can vent his anger. If he gets mad, they tell him to go see Yogi!
    

    We use funny names for one another a lot.  Anyone being silly is
    considered a CuckooMonga; an extreme case is a CuckooBookoo (invented
    spelling, here).  But that is quite distinct from insults intended to
    hurt.  I try to convey that when angry, the best choice is a
    semi-rational discussion.  A second choice is mild ranting and yelling
    or punching pillows or the like.  A poor third choice is insults meant
    to inflict pain (rather than express it).  A worse choice is hitting
    and kicking.  The last mode gets a timeout; the third, may, if
    uncontrolled.  Kids and adults live under identical rules.
    
    On the other hand, we occasionally have nice talks about creative
    insults.  Driving home last night past a construction site I was
    reminded of and offered up one from my youth: "Double dirty
    disconnected sour sewer pipe" (this must be delivered at maximum
    possible speed).  Aaron favored me with one going around his school,
    which was 100% longer and at least 75% more disgusting (though I can't
    remember it all).
    
    		- Bruce

    
    
    When I was a kid we were allowed to argue within reason but NEVER
    to hit.  My wife Laura and I have the same agreement with our
    kids... to be realistic you can't expect people to live under the
    same roof and not get into some kind of disagreement at some time
    or another.  Learning to work out disagreements is important to
    how your going to deal with problems and aguements in the future.
    We don't allow the kids to "vent" their anger on pillows or anything
    else ( Punching bags etc... ) I think that the message your sending
    them is that its alright to deal with anger physically. ( MHO :-)
    )  When my kids talk to Mom or Dad in a way that we don't feel is
    acceptable or use a word they shouldn't the first step is explaning
    that its not acceptable and better not happen again.  They might
    even get a second warning if they're lucky... but a third time and
    its a dab ( I usually wet my finger with water and rub it accross
    the bar of soap.. ) or soap in the mouth and time out for a bit
    works wonders.  The time out is something widely used today.. the
    soap worked for my parents and sure seems to make them pick up on
    the message a lot sooner then the time out all alone!
    
    Tony

< Note 488.9 by MSBVLS::ROCHA >
             -< A little soap cleans out a smart mouth real fast! >-

Please be careful with the TYPE of soap that you use. I do not
condone the pratice but if you do, be sure it's non-caustic soap.
Most DECies are well up on their education to know the difference
but there are some who cannot read that had used soap tha could
do serious injury to the child.

I speak from experience as a former paramedic.

calvin

    I think people are talking about basic bath soap here, i.e., Ivory,
    Dial, etc.  At least that's what I'm thinking of.  I certainly
    wouldn't use Lava on a little mouth!  I'd rather not use _any_
    soap, actually...
    
    Someone brought up a good point about the difference between 
    mouthing off to Mom and Dad and speaking up for oneself to an adult
    who tries to get a kid to do something wrong.  The message in our
    house is, "Don't speak to Mom and Dad that way."  I feel as many
    noters do, I believe that it's dangerous --especially in these days --
    to issue rules like, "Do as you're told."  

    Soap????  This is fascinating.  When I was a kid, we used to hear tales
    about how in ages gone by, parents sometimes thought this was
    appropriate.  I thought it must now be as much a nostalgia item as a
    caning out behind the woodshed.
    
    It also seems to me quite inappropriate.  There is no two or three year
    old who is saying anything worse than you or they can regularly hear on
    network TV, their own classroom, any busy traffic intersection, or
    perhaps their own livingroom (at least it's doubtful that they
    understand anything that might seem worse).  To suggest that they have
    a "dirty" mouth that must be "cleaned" suggests only hypocrisy, since
    none of those other speakers get this treatment.  I think an age
    appropriate talk about how different speach is acceptable in different
    contexts - and households - is appropriate.  All this assumes that the
    grownups in your household don't use profanity themselves.
    
    		- Bruce

                       <<< Note 488.9 by MSBVLS::ROCHA >>>
             -< A little soap cleans out a smart mouth real fast! >-

    
    
>>    We don't allow the kids to "vent" their anger on pillows or anything
>>    else ( Punching bags etc... ) I think that the message your sending
>>    them is that its alright to deal with anger physically. ( MHO :-)
    
>>    but a third time and
>>    its a dab ( I usually wet my finger with water and rub it accross
>>    the bar of soap.. ) or soap in the mouth and time out for a bit
>>    works wonders.  

I may be missing the point, but isn't the above a contradiction?  You don't
allow your children to deal with their anger in a physical manner, yet you
turn around and deal with your dismay/anger/whatever_you_call_it in a very
physical manner.

    Whenever you have two or more people living together, you're going
    to have arguments, and you're going to have anger, and you're
    going to have to figure out ways to deal with that anger. 
    
    I think expressing anger in a physical manner is a valid and
    valuable way to cope with the strong emotion, and teaching
    children acceptable physical releases for anger can be a big help
    in teaching them how to deal with their other emotions.
    
    Anger itself is not just an emotion in the head -- you feel it in
    your body, in the tension and the rush of adrenaline.  Doing
    something active, where you can discharge some of that physical
    tension, is a big help to getting yourself calmed down to take
    rational action and deal with the disagreements in a sane,
    understanding, caring way.  
    
    I mean, face it -- a lot of times you aren't going to be able to
    do anything about a situation that makes you angry.  A slow-moving
    backhoe driving up East Dunstable road at 10 miles an hour and
    refusing to get over, so you're late for a meeting, for instance. 
    Too many people don't know how to let that kind of anger pass, but
    physical activity can help get rid of it rather than accumulate as
    physical ailments over the years. 
    
    Splitting and stacking wood is my personal favorite.  Slamming
    doors is a close second (something statisfying about the loud
    bang).  Spouse swears by jogging.  
    
    --bonnie

Sammy said he needed to go potty yesterday. He was up stairs for
a while the Judy heard several flushes in a row. She goes up
stairs and sees Sammy taking a little dust-bin and hand
wisk-broom; using the dust bin to shovel the kitty litter down
the toilet. He stood in the corner for 5 minutes for that
episode.

Only 5 more months to go til he's three!

cal

    re .15, don't worry about the litter unless it was an excessive amount. 
    I do it regularly, when I empty the solid stuff using my
    "pooper-scooper". (mostly solid, a little litter which is just clay
    anyway)
    
    The only thing I can add to this is having a little one is the best
    thing to keep you temper and *colorful* remarks under control.  We've
    made a contious effort to replace the profanities with "nicer" words.
    We all know pain in the *butt* as opposed to _ss!, the latest and
    cutest is one my husband invented; instead of swearing at that idiot
    driver who cuts you off or drives 40 in the high speed lane, that
    driver is now referred to a "turkey driver".  Now everytime he rides
    with us, he too can recognize and call him what he is....a turkey!
    
    Good Lord it's like having a 36" walking and talking tape recorder!!
    Lyn
    

    I wanted to reactivate this note, to plead a desperate HELP!!!
    
    AJ's latest "thing" is talking back,(he's 4.5) now we're talking about 
    to anyone, us-his parents, his teachers, peers at preschool and aunts, 
    uncles, cousins and grandparents.  Last Friday his teacher, who is extremely
    calm and very forgiving said if it had been her nephew he'd have had a
    "warm bottom" several times! 
    
    Of course he belongs to us so we can warm his bottom when appropriate,
    but he knows not too many others out there have that priviledge, or
    would actually do that to him.  I don't want a discussion about hitting
    him to come about, but I have warmed his bottom, and given him a smack
    on the arm a couple times for some real "sassy" remarks, and a couple
    rather unacceptable words.  He's developing this real irritating
    attitude lately that sounds like (well use your imagination) I've got
    such and such, or I'm getting such and such after school tonite, or I'm
    going to see {whatever} in a real bratty way, announcing this to anyone
    who will listen, friend, relative or complete stranger or any crowd he
    happens to encounter. It sort of sound like "I've got something you
    want- na na na nana!!" Hopefully you can imagine what I'm trying to
    say.
    
    He's not deprived, he gets what he *needs*, not necessarily everything
    he *wants*, and it's just sort of getting to me how he's suddenly
    turning into a "real spoiled, and ungrateful brat"...is this normal at
    the age of 4-1/2??
    
    Lyn

    Oh Lyn,  things have not been going well with my 4 1/2 old either.  I
    think it must be the age or somethings in the air.  The snotty remarks,
    and he is back to saying NO to everything.  I am trying to ignore alot
    of it because he likes it when he gets a rise out of us so he does it
    more.  I think the worst part is he has been getting truly enraged when
    he gets angry.  You know, the face gets red, the nose curls up, the
    voice raises and he announces "I don't like you anymore, I don't want
    to be your friend and I won't play with you again."   
    
    So, your not alone.  I think my Jason is just trying to exercise some
    independence.  I don't know.  This latest bout with naughty behavior
    began when we got back from vacation on the 17th and has gotten worse
    since last Friday (his brothers 2nd birthday).  
    
    I will anxiously await other responses to see if this is typical 4-5 yr
    old behaviour

    I just wanted to add that when I arrived at the daycare yesterday for
    pick-up, his teacher was obviously very upset at AJ.  Seems that in
    addition to raising a ruckus during nap time, keeping the others awake,
    when the teacher threatened him with time out he walked up to her,
    hands on hips and announced "I'm going to punch your lights out!"
    
    OK it made want to laugh in a sad sort of way, this 3foot wonder acting
    so tough, but he certainly doesn't hear that kind of thing around our
    house, and I'm sure it didn't come from school since the teacher would
    have heard the phrase before, he's never said it at home so far.  The
    only thing I can think of is he's recently spent some time with his
    cousins, one is 6- a girl who is rather domineering, the other, a boy 
    is 3 months younger than AJ and tries to act like a toughy, and my
    sister inlaw is much more permissive and overlooks more than I do.
    
    Needless to say the teacher, AJ and I had "a little talk", he
    apologized to her, he knew he had done wrong bigtime, and when we got
    home it was supper, bath and bed by 7p.m., and absolutely no TV.  He's
    been told if it happens again there will be no TV for the rest of this
    week.  I have borrowed two of his favorite tapes from my sister inlaw
    and he was especially upset when I told him he couldn't watch them.
    
    He told me this morning he'd try not to act "rude" but we'll see.
    He also seems to be protesting everything lately, upto and including
    refusing to eat meals at home, eating very little for lunch and
    expecting to eat what was left during the ride home (we have a 35-40
    minute commute each way), and was quite upset when I refused to let him
    have his lunch leftovers for the ride home.  He did, however eat his
    supper quite willingly, so it may be a good thing what I'm doing.
    
    What's THIS mother to do???

    I think you are doing exactly the right thing.
    
    Both you and the teacher are providing consistent rules for him to
    follow.  He knows the exact consequences of not following the rules.
    
    Also, I think you are doing the right thing in not letting him snack on
    the way home.  Food that late would certainly affect his dinner.  And
    if he doesn't eat his dinner, it may affect his sleep.  And who needs
    that too?]
    
    Although Gina is only 15 months, I've had a lot of experience with my
    younger siblings...one of whom is 9 years younger than I am.
    
    judy

                       <<< Note 488.19 by JAWS::TRIPP >>>
                          -< Rude remarks..Bigtime!! >-


    Unfortunately, the "rudeness" isn't restricted to 4-1/2 year olds !!
    My almost-7 year old has had a verbal "attitude" lately and we've
    been dealing with it in a very similar way.  Basically, we put up
    with it, with warnings, for about 2 weeks (not a daily/hourly occurrance
    thank goodness !) and then got "heavy" - he just got a new harmonica
    as a gift and has had it taken away through the duration of the long
    weekend because of some remarks this morning.
    
>    He told me this morning he'd try not to act "rude" but we'll see.
>    He also seems to be protesting everything lately, upto and including
>    refusing to eat meals at home, eating very little for lunch and
>    expecting to eat what was left during the ride home (we have a 35-40
>    minute commute each way), and was quite upset when I refused to let him
>    have his lunch leftovers for the ride home.  He did, however eat his
>    supper quite willingly, so it may be a good thing what I'm doing.

    When it comes to meals, we've always had the rule that you eat what
    you get, there MAY BE dessert/ may NOT be.  However, don't finish
    what you got and there is DEFINITELY NO DESSERT and NOTHING ELSE
    to eat until the next meal.  On occasion (and we've been doing this
    since he was a toddler), he gets hungry but then, as you said, it's
    less of a struggle at the next meal.

Couple of questions for you :

 -  Are there new kids in his daycare group ??  I know my son's room
    just took in some new kids (transition period from one room to
    next) and in the past this has caused some acting out to gain
    attention.

    He's also getting ready to leave the center altogether and start
    first grade next week so I'm sure right now, he's acting this way
    from a combination of anxietys and knowing he's leaving.
  
 -  Does the teacher use time-outs ? 

 -  Anything else new/strange going on other than the kids AJ's
    been with lately ?

>    What's THIS mother to do???
 
    I guess the same as the rest of us......try to figure it out and
    make it through !!!   Consistency for us, tho, and follow-thru,
    has been the key and it sounds like you're doing both of those.


GOOD LUCK !!

Debbi J

    This is slightly off subject, but doesn't seem far enough to warrent a
    new topic ...
    
    What do you say to your toddler/pre-schooler when they say "I'm sorry"? 
    I am usually tempted to say "That's O.K.", but I don't like that
    answer.  What I really want to say is something along the lines of "It's 
    good that you are sorry.  But what would be even better would be if you
    would correct your behavior and never do/say <blah> again."  Now obviously
    that's a little heavy for a pre-schooler, and often what they are
    appologizing for is not that big a deal.  But that's the thought I
    would prefer to convey.  
    
    So, parenting community, when your little one, or even not so little
    one, says "I'm sorry", what is your reply?
    
    Debby

    Beyond "I'm sorry" people (not kids) should fix what they've done.
    
    If we hurt someone, the apology must be to that person, not to the
    parent.
    
    If we break something Mom values, we can give her some money to help
    replace it.  We can at least pick up the pieces.
    
    If we spill milk, we can wipe it up.
    
    If we willfully continue bad behavior, perhaps some punishment is
    called for, such as witholding privileges, or having a time-out.
    
    
    I think if the parent is already reinforcing "I'm sorry" with
    behavioral means, that's plenty.
    
    Laura
    

    "(...for considering my feelings)."  And "I know," if it's really
    apparent that they ARE chagrined and not just tossing off the requisite
    phrase to placate Big Mean Mom!
    
    THEN follow it up with "now let's get to work and wipe it up/fix it/
    replace it/..."
    
    Leslie

    re .21, new kids?  Well he has spent two overnights recently and I, in
    a moment of insanity took my niece and nephew for the day last Friday,
    and my nephew, three months younger than AJ can be a little "toughy", 
    niece just turned 6 and is rather "domineering", might have had some
    influence during the two overnights.  
     
    We spent the entire weekend at home, cleaning up around the yard,
    cellar etc, and his behavior was acceptable.  We only had to stop and
    speak firmly a few times.  
    
    Now here's the latest "what do I do"...he fell off his bike in the
    driveway, and comes to me while I'm on the deck not for kiss on his
    boo-boo, but to announce to me "mom I almost said B*ll-SH*t!" well
    needless to say he was disciplined for that one....but where did he get
    THAT one!
    
    Friday with niece an nephew was pleasant, and he seems to do better
    when he's with other kids his age.
    
    As for the attitude change, it could possibly be something triggered
    from either school, OR home.  We received a note from preschool that
    the Teacher in charge is leaving as of this Friday.  I know I'm going
    to miss her terribly, and there will be TWO new teachers to adjust to.
    Kind of says something when it takes Two teachers to replace ONE!  and
    I'm not sure what if anything the kids have been told.  There will be a
    going away party Friday afternoon, children and parents are invited. 
    Plus the last day of camp was a week ago, and he positively lived for
    camp days, maybe some of this came from being around and hearing the 
    "older" kids at camp....who knows??
    
    My response to the I'm sorry, well I too have been sort of at a loss. 
    But when he says I'm sorry and it's in the category of a Major offense
    I tell him that I accept his apology, but it Still isn't enough.  He'll
    have to (well do something appropriate) such as wipe up the spilled
    milk, or pick up the broken pieces, or NOT to apologize to me, if it
    was someone else's thing he broke etc.
    
    I guess to sum it up, it like saying you need to "say more than three
    Hail Mary's to be forgiven this time".
    
    
    Lyn

>    Now here's the latest "what do I do"...he fell off his bike in the
>    driveway, and comes to me while I'm on the deck not for kiss on his
>    boo-boo, but to announce to me "mom I almost said B*ll-SH*t!" well
>    needless to say he was disciplined for that one....but where did he get
>    THAT one!
    
	usually, when my son comes out with an "I almost said.....",
	I haven't disciplined him, but responded with an attitude of
	"that's good and you understand why you shouldn't say XXX,
	don't you ? So I won't hear it again, will I ?"

	I think it's great that your son admitted he "almost" said it
	when he fell off his bike and realized he shouldn't !!

As far as "I'm sorry", I usually try to get a clarification of "what are
you sorry for ?" just to be sure he understood what the offense was.  Often,
when he was younger, it was "for making you mad" and we'd then talk about
why I was angry with him so he could understand what the real offense was.
Now, we just clarify what went wrong and then, as others have said, continue
on with "now how do we fix it/what do we(you) do about it ?"

just mho
Debbi J

    Marc is just turning 2 this month, and has recently started to say rude
    things to us, like "shut up Dad", etc.  At first I didn't think he knew
    what it meant - I just thought he was repeating something he heard
    somewhere.  But he seems to say it at the appropriate time, so I guess
    he does :-(  Should I ignore it on the theory that he's just using it
    to get a reaction from us?  Should I calmly tell him that we don't
    speak this way in our house?  Should I do time-out?  Other ideas?
    

    We have established a rule in our house, (and do read my humor in the
    note about yesterday's incident) That you DO NOT talk to a grown up, or
    any one else with disrespect!  Nor do you say anything to anyone, that
    you wouldn't want someone to say to you.
    
    In a phrase, "don't dish it out, if you wouldn't want to hear it
    yourself!"
    
    What was that phrase, I think from the Mickey Mouse Club..
    
    "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"
    
    We tried an experiement over the weekend, that when he thought he was
    going to say something naughty to cover his mouth with one hand and
    raise his other hand.  It seems to work, well-once in a while.
    
    Lyn

    I would suggest the "we do not use that word in our house" route. We
    have successfully used it, and it establishes a rule that you can use
    for other things as well.
    JR

    Be careful using "we do not..." as a means of establishing limits...
    I STILL have a vivid memory of my first day of first grade... in
    the lunchroom, I blew a straw-wrapper across the room (my brother
    taught me that trick 8-) ).  My teacher turns to me and says, "We
    do not do that here!"
    
    The first thing that popped into my head was, "But *I* do!!"
    (Recognizing the teacher's tone of voice, though, I shut up and
    didn't say anything).
    
    The point is, "we do not..." is a subtle message which requires that
    the recipient knows his/her place in a group, and that the groups
    rules apply to him/her as well!  This isn't a "natural" concept for 
    a very young child... kids are quite wrapped up in themselves in their
    early years; group consciousness comes later.  Better and more to the 
    point would be to say "*Nobody* does that here".  The phrase begins
    with the syllable "NO" (which most any kid can understand 8-) ), and
    it establishes the group rule in a very direct manner.
    
    Of course, the rule better apply to everybody!  None of this, "Daddy
    can cuss 'cause he's the Daddy..."
    
    --jim