Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I entered this topic so as the members of this notesfile can be aware
    of what's going on.  I don't really know how wide spread this kind of
    thing is, but it might make us become more aware of what is going on
    with our childrens education.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    In my opinion, the only major problem with sex education is that it is
    virtually non-existant, in both homes and schools.
    
    I suspect that the rest of what you describe is apocryphal or
    significantly distorted, though I hope you aren't suggesting that death
    should not be discussed in schools.  If you or others can cite a
    specific curriculum in a specific school that you know about and find
    objectionable, please tell us about it.
    
    		- Bruce

    It's my opinion that Mike did not suggest that death not be dealt
    with, I saw his discomfort or anger directed at the way in which 
    they made the children deal with it.  Is it really a valuable exercise
    to make a child talk to his/her class about the last death in the
    family?  The teacher may or may not realize the effect it may have on a 
    child if, say, a grandmother just died last month!
    
    What value can a forced suicide note bring to a student?  Or a lifeboat
    situation involving family members and leaving out some to die? 
    Do kids need this kind of anxiety?  Can it enrich their lives?
    Well, I don't think so.
    
    I think that there's a possibility that these things could have been
    reported out of context, but the rawness of these exercises bothers me
    too.
    
    We plan to be very aware of our son's education.  Maybe even more so
    now.
    
    Nancy
    

    On the other hand - if a child had brought up the subject of death in
    the classroom (by crying or talking about a recent death) then maybe
    it's a good thing for the teacher to bring up.  An incident like that
    would probably have scared and confused most of the kids in the class
    and by sweeping it under the rug and ignoring the confusion and
    uneasiness would probably get worse.  I know that we'd all like to
    protect our kids from an discomfort and pain in their young lives but
    once the subject comes up it's healthier to talk about it in the open
    and let it heal naturally than ignore it and let it fester.
    
    I wonder what the whole story was.
    
    Nanci

    I agree Nanci. 
    
    I believe that death should be dealt with.  So should all the other human
    issues.  I think that it's the teacher's call, though, as to how it is 
    best approached.  My only hope is that common sense and some sensitivity
    will be applied. 
    
     Nancy 
    

I saw the special last week (20/20 or one of the similar shows) but did not
see anything described in .0.  Basically they said that a handful of states
were beginning to teach death education in the schools, in an effort to
prevent suicides (and I think even murders, if I remember correctly).

Students went on field trips to the morgue, were allowed and encouraged to
touch a dead body, see the process that is taken on dead bodies, witness a
cremation, etc.  They also saw films of family members and how death affected
those still here.

The intent was to show the kids what a death can do (emotionally) to survivors,
and to paint an ugly picture of death.  Many students were visibly shaken, but
admitted to having a better appreciation for life.  One student accused the
program of driving her to attempt suicide.

I think the actual impact has yet to be determined, the program is still new
and not enough data gathered.  I will be interested to see what the real
effect is....

Kristen

P.S.  One controversial issue was that this was not optional, but required.
Some parents of students who were very shaken were upset because they could
not ask for their child to be excused.

    RE: Bruce,  If only it was as easy as saying it doesn't exist and it
    will go away.  I entered this so as parents could be sure that what
    they think their kids are getting is what their really getting.  I
    don't know about anyone else, but I will teach my children about sex
    and death and other things which deal with personal beliefs.  IMHO Our
    schools spend time on crap like this and our kids come out not knowing
    how to perform a simple math equation.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    .7 > If only it was as easy as saying it doesn't exist and it
    .7 > will go away.  
    
    I didn't say this, and it also makes no sense.
    
    I believe that some of the assertions in .0 are rather clearly false,
    and none are sufficiently clear, complete, or documented to be worth
    circulating.  None is identified sufficiently for its truth to be
    testable.  There is no evidence of attention to the vital distinction
    between what might happen as an isolated incident and what happens as a
    matter of policy.  There are literally millions of classrooms in the
    country.  It is likely that virtually any bizarre thing one can imagine
    might have happened once in one of them.  For example, we know that
    people have walked into schoolrooms and started shooting kids.  That
    doesn't make it acceptable to start asserting that there is a crisis in
    the system, or that we should impeach our school committee.  We know
    that people get hysterical about pornographic literature and
    blasphemous doctrine being taught in their schools, but it turns out to
    be Romeo and Juliet and the theory of evolution.
    
    If Mike or others have credible evidence of disturbing curricula in
    identifiable school systems, I would like to hear and know about it.
    
    		- Bruce
    

If I found my daughters' teachers trying to "teach" this kind of thing, I
think I'd be pretty upset ... not because I don't believe that the subject
matter shouldn't be dealt with ... but that teachers are NOT QUALIFIED to
deal with it.  They are treading in areas of psychological nightmares that
psychologists and psychiatrists have to tread lightly and carefully in
(and often mess up peoples lives too), so how on earth can a teacher do it.

Now, the argument seems to be ... well no one else deals with it, so school
should ... just like sex education.  Now they discover that for years they've
not been doing a very good job at sex education ... teenage preganancies don't
seem to have gone down.  Drug education hasn't been working very well either.

Basically some subjects, just because they cannot be dealt with properly in
the home doesn't make school the right place.

Stuart

    First, let me say that I, too, ahve heard from sources other than 20/20
    of things going on in schools similar to what Mike described in .0.
    And I see nothing in there that is "rather clearly false", although I
    might agree with insufficiently documented. I personally know of
    several children involved in the lifeboat incidents....one with using
    family members, in which she received a failing grade, because her
    solution was just for everyone to eat a bit less, and *all* survive
    (she was 16 yrs. old at the time). She was reprimanded, told she was
    wrong to think that way, and that she either had to "kill" a family
    member or flunk the exercise. She chose to fail. This was in a Madison
    County, NY public high school. I know of tow others forced to complete
    this assignment using members of their class, and to decide who should
    die based on these peoples' real life qualities. One child was the one
    chosen to die, and it affected him for months. The other was forced to
    choose a classmate she liked very much (all other participants wanted
    that one to "die"), and woke up screaming at night for weeks, that she
    had killed her friend. This was in Monmouth County, NJ.
    I have no objection to children being exposed to and understanding the
    death and dying process....my objection is with *who* is teaching it.
    It's no me, or my wife, or someone I know and trust to hold the same
    values and ideals and religious beliefs on death as I do....it's a
    stranger who may tell my child something whcih is totally against how
    we want him taught. This is completely unacceptable for me, and for my
    family. *I* will decide what to tell him and when, and he will get
    plenty of opportunities, under carefully guided and nurtured
    instruction, to deal with *all* the topics relevant to
    life....including death, drugs, sex education, etc.
    And I do not believe that enough time is being spent on basics, like
    ensuring that they can read enough to fill out a job application, or do
    enough math to figure out how much a box of cereal cost per ounce, or
    how to do math without benefit of calculator.
    So....partially for these above reasons, we have chosen to home school
    our children. We are *not* harming them by doing this. They have ample
    opportunities to socialize with both age-mates, and those older and
    younger than them. They get a one to one insturction time, with a
    caring teacher (my wife), who does not go on if they don't "get"
    something, just because they have spent "enough" time on it, and its
    time to move on ( something which is, realistically, unavoidable to
    some extent in the public schools).
    I, personally, am glad Mike entered this topic. Like he said...just so
    we as parents can know what's going on!

    I don't know where my thinking is on this one yet. There are many
    exercises that children go through in scholl that have a purpose.
    Without all the "evidence", I hate to pass a value judgement. 
    
    The exercise of making a coffin out of a shoebox may have been in a
    Psychology course where they were showing that evidence of knowing your
    own mortality makes it even more difficult to commit suicide. Or maybe
    it was a special class of manic depressants who were afraid of dying
    and it was to help them cope with the fact that they would die. 
    
    I think every instance of "different" practices needs to be completely
    looked at. 
    
    I personally have taken the "life boat test" a  number of times. It is
    designed to see what your value judgements are on people you know
    little about and what you would expect from those people it that role.
    I took it the first time at about 13 years old in a very strict
    Catholic school. There are no right or wrong answers. It is an exercise
    of Valuing Differences and opened up incredible discussions about how
    we each learn to place value on different qualities, prejudices, etc.
    It is a personal eye-opener if presented the right way.
    
    About the tampon model - that is just plain ridiculous in a co-ed class
    room. But maybe that's the only type of sex ed taught in that school
    system so you have to take what you can get if you are not going to
    teach sex-ed at home and keep your child out of the class. It seems as
    ridiculous as passing around a model of a penis so girls could learn
    how to put a rubber on properly!!
    
    The problem is that you can rarely find out the specific details of
    what will transpire at a very detailed level until after it happens. 
    That is the unfortunate part!!!
    
    The judge is still out on this one!!
    
    Andrea (who has no problems "reporting" unethical, undignified
    teaching) 

    A few years ago I interviewed quite a few home daycare providers
    looking for part time care for my 4 month old twins.  I interviewed a
    woman who was an ex-schoolteacher who I liked a lot.  In the course of
    conversation I asked her why she had quit teaching, 1st and 2nd graders
    I think.  Her response was - she didn't like what was going on in the
    school system as far as curriculum was concerned, felt she had no power
    to change it, and simply quit.  
    
    One of the examples she quoted was - forcing 1st and 2nd graders to
    plan their own funerals, including coffins, eulogy, how it would feel
    inside the box, what to put on the gravestone, etc.  She had worked in
    the Wilton Public schoolsystem in Wilton, NH.  There is your specific
    example.
    
    There is a time and a place for everything.  I think 1st and 2nd grade
    is neither the time nor place for this kind of thing.  PARTICULARLY
    when kids are failing reading and arithmetic!!  This defies logic, it
    defies common sense, aand is an intrusion into family space.  It is not
    what public schooling was ever intended to provide.
    
    

    Here's an example of a specific case:  Hudson,NH Memorial School
    1988, my son's 6 grade class.  Subject material be taught was
    mythicalogical gods.  OK subject to me.
    
    Where things started going amuck was that they planned a party and a
    day of celebration for the gods!  Students were awarded prizes for
    tee-shirts that were decorated with their favorite god, as well as
    for essays stateing why they were favorite gods.  A WHOLE DAY WAS
    DEDICATED IN THAT SCHOOL TO CELEBRATE THE GODS.
    
    In this case I will agree that the students will have down pat who the
    gods were and a lot of greek history.  I complained about this rather
    than just keep my son out of school on that day.  This brought about a
    lot of peer pressure to particapte in the celebration.  In the days
    prior to the event the school was bubbling with excitment over who was
    doing/wearing what,etc.
    
    teachers have a huge influence on children.  They must use it wisely.
    
    I complained and protested.  It was ruled that matters pretaining to
    religion could be taught as long as it pretained to historical events.
    I was allowed to keep my son out of school on that day which I did.
    Damage due to all that planning,etc was done.
    ed

    re .13. "damage"
    
    Ed, what's the damage?  I don't see any harm, beyond the remote
    possibility that your child might generalize from "Jupiter is
    fiction" to "God is fiction".  Given the naive ethnocentricity
    of children, that's hardly likely--after all, the standard 
    British upper-class education for centuries was based on classics,
    but the Church of England didn't lose vast numbers of children
    to atheism (or adults either).
    
    All in all, the class sounds fun.  If I were your child, I'd
    resent being kept home when my fellow-students got to go to a
    party and show off t-shirts they'd designed.
    
    			-John Bishop

    I'm baffled by .13.  You say, Ed, that you approve of kids studying
    Greek mythology and history.  Yet you find objectionable an approach
    that you admit was both interesting to the kids and effective.  Why? 
    Do you suggest that dressing up as a Greek god is going to undermine
    your child's religious training?  I hope you don't imagine parental
    influence is as fragile as that.
    
    The case in .12 (2nd grade funeral planing) is more interesting.  I
    agree that it sounds bizarre, and I am ready to believe that something
    approximating it took place in Wilton NH (those few of us here in Mass.
    who haven't lost our minds yet know it has been the NH folks that were
    weird all along), though that doesn't mean it is still happening.  And
    I might continue to object after thorough investigation.  But I would
    first try not to rush to judgement without knowing more.
    
    In one of my many odd careers I spent a year (way back when) doing
    curriculum development for elementary school social studies.  I know
    that sometimes a lot of careful thought, long experience, and detailed
    empirical study goes into decisions about what to teach and how to
    present it, including decisions that superficially appear odd or
    dubuios.  I also, from that experience, from my recent active parental
    involvement in schools, and from common sense, know that teachers and
    school committees do not get their jollies from casually adopting
    subjects or teaching methods that will clearly tend to rile parents up.
    Thus I can be pretty sure that some person or group in Wilton had
    thought this through, and had what they took to be a good reason for
    this program.  Before I formed a judgement (as opposed to an initial
    opinion) I would want to be fully informed about that reasoning, as
    well as what actually happened in the classroom.  Possibly I would end
    up concluding that the reasoning and decision were mistaken, or even
    perverse.  In that case, I would happily work to change the curriculum
    and perhaps change the decision makers.  More likely, I think (though I
    know nothing about Wilton), I would learn some interesting and valuable
    things from thoughtful professional educators, and change my initial
    opinion.
    
    Some really crazy things do go on in school systems, though most of
    them have nothing to do with the kind of controversial material under
    discussion here.  But one should be cautious about trying to identify
    them from afar, and slow to sound the alarm about the rottenness of the
    schools in general because of a fourth hand rumor that something weird
    once happened in some classroom somewhere.
    
    With respect to "value" issues in the curriculum, I have two general
    beliefs.  The first is that a value free curriculum is neither possible
    nor desirable; so some level of controversy is inevitable and often
    healthy.  Second, I think that parents who really do a reasonable job
    of imparting values, beliefs, information about sex, and the like, to
    their kids have nothing to fear from almost any school program.  Those
    parents who do NOT do or even attempt a reasonable job with these
    things have no grounds for complaint.
    
    		- Bruce

    Aha!  I observe from 35.21 that Neil Faiman lives in or near Wilton. 
    Can you shed any light on current curriculum there, Neil?
    
    		- Bruce
    

    RE .15 Bruce, I agree whole-heartedly with your last paragraph!!!!
    
    Values start in the home and I would personally hope that the
    upbringing in our home couldn't be underminded by some exercise,
    program, etc in the school system. 
    
    There is a time and place for everything and the priorities of the
    school system should be made clear (reading, writing and 'rithmetic, as
    far as I'm concerned). 
    
    On the "death" example, I don't think I'd be offended or taken back by
    it if it was taught to my child in 1st or 2nd grade because we as
    parents would have hopefully explained death as a whole concept to our
    children by then. If I hadn't taught or explained death to my child by
    that age, then I would be "afraid" of the school program dictating what
    and how my child learned. If I was the teacher, I would send a note
    home to the parents letting this subject was going to be discussed well
    in advance so the parents could prep the child in their own way if they
    hadn't already done so. I'm not real sure about discussing things like
    what it feels like in a coffin, namely because you have no feelings when
    you're dead so what does it matter but that is the point to be made to
    the children. 
    
    There is a fine line to discussing the unfortunate things in life like
    death and personal things in life like sex. It needs to be done
    tastefully and tactfully, geared toward the age group. 
    
    I do have a basic problem with the fact that the schools end up
    teaching these things because they are not being taught in the homes.
    That is a personal issue for each of us!!!
    
    Andrea

    Andrea,
    
    I think that there is enough of an awareness these days that these
    topics are addressed in most homes.  It is not in the school systems
    charter to address these topics, therefore they should STAY OUT.  These
    practices are not justified even if noone discussed the issue at home. 
    It is just another case where the government is trying to force things 
    on us.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike
    

    I've seen some information and research about the suicide-note
    exercise for junior-high age students.
    
    This is generally done as part of a suicide-prevention program. 
    Kids that age usually consider suicide as a way of getting out of
    a difficult situation, without really considering the effects on
    others or its permanent effects on themselves.  Especially after
    someone else in the area kills themselves, and with the influence
    of things like Romeo and Juliet, kids tend to romanticize the idea
    of killing themselves as a way of dealing with problems.
    
    One of the parts of the program is that kids consider why they
    might want to end it all; a make-believe suicide note is often the
    vehicle through which they express those ideas.  The idea is to
    teach kids that death is permanent and not necessarily very
    pleasant, and that there are other ways of coping with problems. 
    They also try to get the kids to visualize the life that's going
    to go on without them.  
    
    Usually there's a trained counsellor of some kind either
    participating in the program (often conducting associated
    discussion groups) or available to work with kids who need extra
    help.
    
    Teen and preteen suicides are sometimes highly publicized, but
    often they're covered up.  I found out last year that a boy down
    the street, a kid Kat's age, whose trike I'd been dodging for 9
    yeras, was found hanged the year before when he was 14.  His
    funeral announcement was never even in the paper; he just sort of
    disappeared.  The *kids* all knew what had happened, but the
    parents and apparently most of the teachers didn't.  It turned out
    to be autoerotic asphyxiation, but until that word leaked out a
    lot of the kids were living with grim and dangerous thoughts that
    they hadn't shared with *anybody*.  The parents and the school
    didn't even know there was a problem. 
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    It is really sad about the boy's death and that the kids who knew about
    it didn't get a chance to talk about their feelings, fears etc.  But do
    you really mean to say that autoerotic asphyxiation is suicide?  I
    believe that death in this manner is *usually* accidental, that is
    that death is not the goal of the activity.
    
    Just wanted to clarify.
    Norma

    I just wanted to add some experiences from another angle on this.  In
    my experiences I've had to deal with several teen suicide attempts, and
    accidental overdoses, and the dangerous drug&alchol combination of
    teens.  What I see the hospital staff doing is something that impresses
    this EMT.  Even as the teen is being physcially treated, a psyciatrist
    specializing in Child and Adolescents is being summoned to the
    Emergency room.  This specialist will deal with both the child and the
    other family members, helping each to cope with the problem.
    
    Generally when a teen recovers from a serious situation like these they
    tend to be aware of the seriousness, and ready to start again.
    Just my 2cents worth.
    
    Lyn
    

    re: .20
    
    Sorry I wasn't clear.
    
    Yes, the boy's death was accidental, but nobody realized that at
    the time.  It was misdiagnosed as suicide by hanging and the
    parents covered it up, partly from shame and partly from thinking
    if the other kids didn't know about it, there wouldn't be a rash
    of copycat suicides.  
    
    Which scared the kids who learned about it from the rumor mill,
    because if this seemingly normal happy boy could suddenly be
    struck down by suicide, it could happen to *them* without any
    warning, without anyone being able to help.  
    
    About six months later someone reviewing the records noticed a
    couple of telltale details and corrected the cause of death.  When
    that word got out, you could almost hear the neighborhood's huge
    sigh of relief.  And that was when the parents and teachers found
    out about it, after nobody was worried any more.  
    
    --bonnie

This kind of thing should be handled in schools by psychologists on an as
required basis, and not by teachers as a part of curriculum.  It is up to
the teacher to involve the schools psychologists when required.  A teacher
is just like you or me, and may well not present a balanced non-opinionated
view on subjects like coping with death.

I certainly don't want, for example, someone else putting a religious overtone 
on the subject because it could be potentially very different from my own 
beliefs.  I would want someone to consider the subject objectively and not 
subjectively, and I believe you need someone who has been trained to look at
things this way.

Stuart

re .16, .12:

I am not an expert on the Wilton public schools, since my daughter attends
a private school.  (No particular prejudice against Wilton's public schools --
we moved to Wilton for Pine Hill.)  But I called an acquaintance who has been 
on the Wilton school board for five years.  She had never heard of any such 
thing as described in .12, but the story made her curious, so she followed it 
up with another member, who has been on the board forever.

The nearest that they were able to come up with was that a long while ago 
(fifteen  years, I think), the local funeral home proposed showing a film
on funerals in the school, but that after viewing the film (and possibly
having the teachers view it, too), the school board decided that it wasn't
appropriate, and the whole thing was dropped.

So, I'm sure that the story in .12 relates to *something* real, but two
school board members, one with considerable experience, were unable to
say what.  By the way, although I don't know how much involvement the
school board would have had in the initiation of such a program, I can't
believe that they wouldn't at least have heard about it from parents.

	-Neil

    
    Thanks for inquiring, Neil.
    
    		- Bruce