Conference moira::parenting_v3

>I have found someone that all three of us care about a great deal . . .
>The last couple of nights, we've had trouble 
			    ~~~~~

I assume from your use of the plural pronoun (as well as your description of 
his relationship with your children) that your "someone" either lives with 
you, or spends a lot of time there.

That, combined with the actions of his biological, "legal" father, could 
easily cause a lot of confusion, particularly in a kid who is now in school, 
interacting with a lot of other kids who have more traditional families, etc.  
If my assumption is correct, please understand that I am making no judgment, 
moral or otherwise, about the arrangement.  Just that it's quite possible that 
it is confusing to your son.

Whether or not my assumption is correct, I suggest that some counseling 
(either him alone or some combination of him, you, and your SO) may be 
in order.  You might consult EAP, or your son's pediatrician may be a good 
first step in finding the right person.

Clay

    I've been in a similar situation.  Children have a lot of unreasonable
    fears, that is unreasonable to us adults, but very real for them, as
    they don't have the wisdom of age and experience to know better.  I
    know my son was profoundly affected by his daddy's lack of attention
    after our divorce, and his inconsistency of visiting.  It is a form
    of abandonment, pure and simple.  When I became involved with a new man
    who was more of a father to them that real daddy ever was, we went 
    through some trying times.  What can happen is, the child starts to
    have these feelings for a daddy again, and cannot quite trust these
    feelings, for fear of being abandoned all over again.  It's similar
    to say, you or I going into a new relationship carrying old baggage
    from past relationships.  He is probably confused, scared, and feeling
    old hurts.  Children tend to feel it's their fault, my son even
    admitted he blamed himself for daddy not coming to see him. He thought
    he did something bad.  It's amazing how children feel they hold the 
    power over all events in their lives.  Also, he may feel he is
    "betraying" his daddy by feeling close to a new man.  
    
    What I had to do was be patient, TALK to him a LOT, be firm but loving, 
    and reassure him that its OK TO FEEL THIS WAY, and also reassure him
    by explaining it is NOT his fault that we split up.  I did consult a 
    therapist ( I was already in therapy) for advice on how to deal with
    it, because my own frustrations, fears and embitterment didn't exactly
    make me an objective party, even tho I NEVER degraded their father to
    the children.  It is worth spending the money for a little advice.  
    
    If you want  to talk thru mail feel free to contact me.  I know the 
    feelings, it absolutely broke my heart to see such a good little guy
    suffer so much.  My youngest son, born shortly after my divorce, is
    the most happy go lucky little one, never bothered him in the least,
    never really knew the guy.  The difference is painfully evident.
    
    Good luck , I hope this works out for you!
    
    Kim

    My thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

    Overall, confusion and ambivalent feelings will wax and wane, but
    nothing can banish them, or make the problem vanish.  Your kids' father
    (or at least the idea of him) will continue to be an influence
    throughout their lives even if they never see him again.  And you will
    experience conflict even if he takes a more active and reliable role in
    their lives.  So don't hope for a magic bullet, or think of the problem
    as someone's "fault."  I suggest reading "Second Chances" for more
    perspective (but no great cheer; sorry I can't remember the author's
    name this moment).

    I also doubt that your son has a single coherent set of feelings that
    he "REALLY" feels, and that you should somehow understand and resolve.
    I would guess that he feels both affection and resentment toward both
    his daddy and his "step-daddy," and that this probably will continue to
    some degree whatever else happens.  I imagine that what he needs most
    is reassurance that he is an OK person even though he has conflicting
    and painful feelings (painful to himself and perhaps also to those he
    feels dependent on), but that you can accept them and discuss them with
    him constructively.  My 4 year old is in a phase where he is often
    telling each of his parents that he would rather be at the other's
    house right now; it's doubtless also the truth!

    I think it is almost always beneficial to children to have active
    involvement with both parents, and you should keep trying to encourage
    this, whether or not you can stand the sight of your ex, and whether or
    not you make progress.  Possibly involvement with his new baby will
    open him more to involvement with the older kids.  It may be hard to
    get this started, since they see so little of each other now.  But
    managing some more time together might rekindle affection, reduce
    anxieties, and become self-reinforcing.

    You might find some more helpful thoughts in the book "Mom's House,
    Dad's House" (by a woman named Ricci, if I remember right).  You will
    also find lots of relevant discussion in the notesfile
    DLOACT::BLENDED_FAMILIES.

    Yes, I also agree with Bruce--very important point, it is ongoing!
    Periodically, I have to talk to Robert and Shane, and keep reassuring
    them about daddy.  They recently saw him for the first time in 3
    years.  He is never going to be a consistent father, but he is a 
    part of their lives, and will not just disappear.  It was hard to
    accept (for me) but for my children's sake , I put my resentments
    aside, and vent them to the right people at the right time, but
    never to the children.  The topic is alway open for discussion,
    and I make sure my family all knows it too.  

    I havn't read the other replies as I wanted to state my opinion without
    having read them.
    
    I think daddy should do what is expected of all parents, that is
    take the responsibility for his kids.  Either make and stick to a
    commitment or get out of their lives.
    
    Its really rough to make someone (daddy) do something they don't want
    to and have it work.  I think your wise not to force him to visit with
    the kids so far...... BUT as you have observed your son is being hurt
    by this situation.  
    
    This guy sounds so unreliable it might be wiser to encourage a complete
    end to the relationship.
    
    How about a visit to the judge or court which validated the divorce
    agreement and visitation rights with some 'clarifications' worked out.
    'Either xhit or get off the pot type statement to daddy'.  Perhaps a
    six month trial period... if he fails to follow through assuming he
    agrees to on the visits, then the court could formally end the
    relationship with a court order that he not see the kids.
    
    This is rough stuff, working out who and in what countext ex's see the
    kids.  But if a parent is acting irresponsibly and won't change then
    the kids have to come first. 
    
    Jeff

    This may not be pertinent, but whenever my husband travels or works
    late, and I have to discipline my daughter (now 8 years old) she
    always cries that she wants Daddy.  This happens only when she is
    already tired.
    
    I often wondered what would happen if Daddy had to discipline her 
    in similar circumstances.  Finally it happened, and I heard her
    crying that she wanted Lucy (her lifelong daycare provider)!  Kids
    have a solution for everything...
    
    BTW, discipline in these instances is something like a reminder to
    pick up your shoes, or brush your teeth before going to bed.
    
    Susan
    

    I don't have any insight to this problem (except to say that .1's
    response/experience seemed to make a lot of sense--possibly explain
    what your son is going through).
    
    But I did want to add that, although I am angry at the father for his
    irresponsibilty, this type of situation makes me more sad than angry. 
    Certainly the base noter's son is missing out on a rewarding
    relationship with his father, but the Father is losing sooo much too---
    he's throwing away his opportunity to share in his son's childhood.
    I have a step-nephew, my brother-inlaw's step son, Matt. This boy is 7 years
    old and an absolutely great kid. His natural father barely sees him 3-4
    times a year (at his doing--could have him every other weekend, lives
    25 minutes away). I watched my husband and our 4yr old son play
    football with  my brother-in-law and Matt. It put tears in
    my eyes seeing these "daddies" really playing with their sons. They all
    had a blast.  All I could think of was how much Matt's father was
    missing out on. Matt's step Dad and Matt were having a truly great time
    (you know, a Kodak moment kind of thing) and Matt's natural Dad had
    NOTHING!! AND IT WAS HIS CHOICE!!!!
    
    Yes, he I can be angry at the Father in .0, but I also feel pity for
    his ignorance.
    

    I certainly agree with .7 that it's sad, and a loss to both father and
    child, but possibly compassion is more appropriate than anger.  For a
    father who was strongly involved with a child before separation, being
    reduced to visitation rights might make the relationship too painful to
    sustain.  For a father who wasn't terribly involved before, trying to
    establish a solid relationship in the new circumstances might seem too 
    daunting to undertake.  I would bet that most non-custodial parents
    worry that the custodial parent will try to undermine the other
    relationship, and too often they are right.  Everyone has trouble
    extending affection and trust that they fear will be jilted.  I
    certainly agree that every parent has the responsibility to try to
    overcome these barriers and emotional obstacles.  But failure may be
    due to something other than indifference, irresponsibility, or ignorance.
    
    		- Bruce

re: .5

.5>    the kids have to come first. 

Jeff, I agree with your point, and I think that the rest of your note 
contradicts it, to the point that I am "flame on".

The base noter specifically said that she did not want to force the bio dad to 
spend time with the son.  If what you suggest is't "forcing", then I don't 
know what is.  

.0> I wish daddy would either take a part in their lives and see them more or
.0> get OUT OF THEIR LIVES!  

Jeff, there is a BIG difference between having or expressing this thought (as 
the base noter has done) and taking legal action to make this happen, (as you 
have reccomended).

I can see it profiting _nothing_ for the base noter to spend time, effort, 
and money trying to use the legal process to get the father to "reform".  Now 
I've never been through this, but I believe I am correct in saying that 
litigation over issues like custody and visitation rights are among the most 
draining and emotionally exhausting of all the things that parents can go 
through.  And I can easily see this course of action as resulting in the noter 
ending up exhausted and bitter, with no emotional energy left for her son.

It's quite possible that the child is suffering great pain by the lack of his 
bio father's prescence.  What will it accomplish for the mother to take action 
that could cut off even the _possibility_ of his being present?  This would be 
"cutting off her son's nose to spite her face" at its worst, IMO.  In fact, if 
successful, it would let the father off the hook, and set him up to start 
being negligent in his financial responsibilities.

Cutting off the father's physical prescence will not "get [him] out of their 
lives".  It only removes his physical presence.  Suppose, some day, years from 
now, the son resents that he does not know his biological father, and/or the 
bio father takes an interest in his son.  If you were the mother, would you 
want him to have issues to work with his father -- why didn't you visit me? -- 
or issues with you -- why did you prevent him from seeing me?  The son -- with 
help -- will have a MUCH easier time dealing with his biological father if he 
has an accurate picture, not an imagined "what might have been".

I agree that kids come first.  Concentrate on getting help for the son, not 
trying to reform the bio father.  Spend emotional energies on the son.  You 
can't control other people.  

Clay

    Hi all,
    
    Thank you for all your responses.  Although, there is NOTHING I can do
    as far as my EX is concerned.  I do feel that his lack of seeing the
    children IS affecting their lives.  He's playing mind games with them.
    
    Yes, I can take him back to court and "force" him into seeing them, but
    that costs money for one thing (which I don't have) and for another
    thing, HE will resent taking them and that will just be worse for the
    kids.
    
    My ONLY concern is for the happiness for my children.  Due to a custody
    case that he started, the lawyers recommended counceling between the
    two of us.  We can't even agree on that!  I suggested someone that will
    be covered by my insurance so neither one of will have to pay anything. 
    He didn't like that idea, he thought I had manipulated the councelor. 
    He made an appointment with someone else for both of us (which I found
    out about one day beforehand).  HIS councelor was going to charge me,
    but accepted HIS insurance.  Naturally I said NO!  I can't afford it
    and why can't we use someone covered by insurance for BOTH of us?
    BTW, he was told by his lawyer to drop his case, because he had no case
    and if he refused, his lawyer was going to tell him to find another
    lawyer because he was being totally unreasonable.
    
    What I think I need help in is what to say to them when they ask WHY
    daddy doesn't see them or what to say when they say that his new wife
    HATES me?  I just don't know what to say because *I* don't have any
    answers.
    
    Again, thank you all for your support.
    

    Say that you don't know, that you don't understand it yourself.
    You don't have to have all the answers.  I think if you make excuses
    for the father that you are both protecting him and interfering
    with their understanding of him.  You can sympathise with him even
    if you can't make it better.
    	Linda

    .9   I have a tendency (sometimes) to try to make gray situations black
    and white  to create order where there is chaos.  My recommendation to 
    have the bio father get involved or stay out was an attempt at that.
    
    Clay you have pointed out some of the problems associated with my
    approach, (its not black and white, it IS gray).
    
    I am not a divorced parent who has had to deal with this situation,
    some of you other noters are.
    
    I would try and do whatever reduced the boys long term pain over this
    issue.  If keeping his bio father in his life even though its far less
    than optimal then thats the way to go. 
    
    Even though the boy may not have a good relationship with his bio father
    now, its quite possible that as he gets older the relationship will
    improve as both of them mature.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    You can't get the biological father out of a child's life.  Ever. 
    No matter what.  Even if he's dead and buried.  He's still there
    in the child.  
    
    Kat's biological father decamped before she was born.   She never
    knew him, never saw him, knows nothing about him except what
    little I've been able to tell her.  I don't even know if he's
    still alive.  
    
    But he's there.  She keeps his picture on her desk.  She wonders
    who he was, she wonders why he left, she wonders if he's ever
    going to come back.  
    
    This has nothing to do with Neil.  She loves him and has an
    excellent relationship with him.  But she knows that there's
    another person who had part of the making of her, and there's no
    denying that.  
    
    My own reaction to the situation in .0 is that more rather than
    less involvement with the man in your life might be helpful -- not
    necessarily as a father figure but as a friend.  Even if you
    expect the relationship between you and him to be temporary, being
    able to talk to a male role model who's perhaps more reliable or
    understanding than his own father might help your son.  
    
    --bonnie

    I have been - am - there too... and most of what could be said on the
    subject has been said by other noters...  I have however one question
    to the base noter... "they want us to get married... they want to call
    him daddy.... but we tell them they can't.."  If you are all becoming
    close i.e. a "family", what is in the way of your happiness ?  I am not
    being "nosey"... but I find this message confusing and perhaps your
    kids do too ?  When my daughter expresses anger at her dad's lack of
    presence (be it physical or "letters" - finance is not her problem !) I
    try to put it in the perspective of the response of 0.8  and hold her
    in my arms until she feels better... I don't know why, I can only say
    "some people are that way I guess..."
    
    BTW "lack" in this context is now at 18 months+ with a christmas card
    (1989) from somewhere (no return address) in China !  She's nine now
    and this has been going on since before she was born (hwich is why I
    never married him in the first place !)  He breezes in and disappears
    at will... like I say some people are just like that... you have to
    take them for what they are - again with all the compassion of 0.8.
    
    Hang in there, build an atmosphere of love trust and tolerance inyour
    home and your children will respond favorably to it... over time.

    I realize this note is over a year old, I wonder if anyone will read
    this reply!
    
    I am going through this now.  My son is almost 2 years old, and my ex
    and I have been divorced almost 2 months (seems like longer!).  My
    son's "daddy" sees him regularly, every Wednesday night for supper and
    every other weekend.  I am thankful for that, and he is even starting
    to comprehend when I explain "daddy is picking you up at school
    (daycare)".  I feel good that he is actually reliable enough that I can
    tell him that.
    
    Part of the reason might be that I laid out the ground rules ahead of
    time.  My ex has two kids from a previous marriage, and while we were
    dating and married, he was very sporadic with visitation to those
    kids.  He was totally unreliable.  I felt so bad for those kids, to
    have daddy tell them he was coming, and then not show!  Or cancel last
    minute.  When he would say to his son (who is now 12), "you want to
    come with Dad this weekend?", his son would say " I don't care."  My
    understanding of that was that he was too vulnerable to say Yes and
    then be stood up!  I also understood that he took it out on his mother
    after hanging up the phone!  
    
    I told my ex during our divorce and talk about custody and visitation,
    and I told my lawyer, "3 strikes and he is out".  I did not want my son
    hurting for the next 18 or so years, waiting and looking out the window
    only to be shot down.  I told him he was not going to control my
    schedule for the next so many years, by promising to take him for a
    weekend and not coming.  If he promised to have him home at 6pm Sunday,
    then I don't mean 5pm, and I don't mean 7pm.  Consistency is very
    important!  We put it in the divorce agreement that he will notify me
    at least 48 hours if he is not coming.   If he was going to be late or
    not show, he missed his chance.
    
    My son misses his daddy alot, and the Wednesday night visitation really
    helps. 
    
    I know I didn't answer the question, because I was able to take care of
    the problem before the fact (so far so good!).  The only thing that helped
    me was knowing ahead of time what to expect, and impressing upon the
    (guilty-feeling) father the importance of his presence in his son's
    life (build his ego), and what I would not stand for.  I learned from
    my marriage that with him, if you give an inch he takes 100 miles.  I 
    will not let it happen in my divorce!
                                                     

Re: .15

 >I told him he was not going to control my
 >   schedule for the next so many years, by promising to take him for a
 >   weekend and not coming.  If he promised to have him home at 6pm Sunday,
 >   then I don't mean 5pm, and I don't mean 7pm.  

I think this is awfully unreasonable.  I don't know how far your ex has to
drive to get to your son but if he has to drive a distance, drive in or near
rush hour, or pick him up soon after work, there are many factors beyond his
control that could make him late.  If you tried to enforce such strict rules
on me then I'd say fine - if I show up at 6:00 and you aren't quite home yet,
I take my son with me for the week.  If I arrive to get him and you don't have
him dressed yet, that's one of YOUR three strikes - then YOU have him no more.
(Obviously that's an extreme, but probably not any more extreme than the rules
you described!)

I realize your divorce is still new and you have lots of emotions to get over,
but the two of you are going to have to learn how to work TOGETHER and
compromise, and even try to accomodate each other when things come up.  I
totally agree with you that promises made should be kept, but there are many
times in a child's life (even with two married parents) that he will have to
wait a while to do something because of some uncontrollable circumstance.

From experience (as the step),
Kristen

    re.16
    
    I understand exactly where you're coming from.  It seems to me that
    "control" is factor in these kind of situations.  
    
    As for my own experiences, Divorce gave me power.  I had felt that that
    slip of paper gave me the power or authority to say "hey, I will not be
    manipulated anymore", but really that's not true.  I wish I could have
    learned before the divorce that I could have practiced the same thing
    without that piece of paper.  But anyway, it's over and things are
    different now and decisions can still be made with better insight.
    
    Also, Divorce let me revenge.  It was kinda like I was telling or
    rather demanding from him that he be like so or like that, and if not
    than so be it, WE ARE DIVORCED and I don't have to care about you. 
    Another wrong, but like I said we've learned.