Conference moira::parenting_v3

I'd say you two have a serious problem, and playing power games such as you
are suggesting are only going to make things worse.  Personally, I can't
imagine NOT wanting to be involved, but clearly there is something bothering
your husband.  Perhaps he found that you unconsciously "pushed him away"
from your first child, not letting him share in the child care and making him
feel unwanted and incompetent.  This often happens and is an easy trap to
fall into.

Whatever the reason, if you continue on your current course, things are going
to be much worse for you and your kids in the future.  I'd suggest some sort
of counselling right away.

					Steve

    Have you ever thought that you wanted something, only to realize after
    you had it that it really wasn't what you wanted, or that it's not
    quite what you expected?
    
    Its possible that your husband was eager and ready to have another
    child when you were talking about and trying to conceive, but now that
    you're pregnant, reality may be setting in for him. Maybe he's dreading
    the first few months after the new baby is born, when you'll be getting
    little sleep and lots of headaches (remember that with #1?) Maybe he's
    alarmed about the financial changes that your family will go through
    when #2 makes his or her arrival. Or, maybe he's just nervous overall
    about what #2 and the future may bring.
    
    I agree with the first reply, in that playing games isn't the right
    route for you to travel. You need to talk it out with your spouse
    before you (and maybe he) build up resentment towards each other or the
    new baby. One suggestion might be to ask him direct questions, such as
    "How do you feel about going through the bottle-diaper-pacifier
    business again?", or "Are you worried about our finances with #2 coming
    along?"--rather than an indirect question, such as "Honey, is something
    about the baby/my pregnancy bothering you?" I think men have a tougher
    time opening up than women, and unless you question him directly, he
    may not volunteer any information.
    
    Good luck with your situation, and please let us know the outcome. It
    might help other couple who are in the same situation, or are
    contemplating a second pregnancy.
    
    Nancy- 

It's funny how things have a different importance to each of us.  During my
first pregnancy, my husband never read a book, never went to a doctor's
appt., and never told me I shouldn't do something.  I'd tell him, "No, I'm
not supposed to lift heavy boxes'" or "No, I can't paint that room."  He's
a great dad, and I always felt like it's his choice... from my perspective
there wasn't much he could DO, anyway.

I'm in my second pregnancy now, and things are the same, if even more
relaxed--perhaps because it's not new this time (maybe that's something
that's going on with your husband)?  At any rate, it doesn't bother me at
all.

But, you do seem to be bothered, and witholding information (i.e., about
the ultrasound) and thinking of not allowing him to be with you at delivery
seems like serious trouble.  I agree with the previous reply--stop playing
power games, get counseling, something... otherwise your relationship will
probably only get worse.  Think about what you said--you'd rather have your
mother or good friend with you at delivery: to me this says they are now
closer to you than your husband.  And that's something I wouldn't feel good
about.


Marty

    
    Well ... I see it in yet another perspective.
    
    The first time around, it was:  new, exciting, curiosity about the
    "unknown", anticipation, psych'd about preparing for that "new, warm,
    bubbly bundle-o-joy" ... all things good! ...
    
    SO NOW ... we've been through it.  Now we've experienced it.  Now the
    "dreams" have been dreamt and reality has set in.  Exhaustion,
    Frustration, Financial-Burdens ...
    
         All of a sudden the "experience" has a way of clouding over
         those beautiful, wonderful memories and new experiences ...
    
    See, it's not a "new, exciting experience" anymore!  The heart doesn't 
    quite skip a beat going off to the obyn AGAIN!  (Unfortunately, you
    don't have a choice and maybe it's annoying that he does?)
    
    I'm not sure how old your first tyke is, but if he/she's still in
    diapers and in the throw's of Terrible-2's, I can WELL UNDERSTAND
    any apprehension a to-be-parent could be experiencing with the thoughts
    of adding a newborn to the current situation!
    
    Not sure I can offer any advice (AND IT'S DEFINATELY NOT MY PLACE
    TO JUDGE YOU OR YOUR HUSBAND!), except to say I can somewhat understand
    why you're feeling what you're feeling ... and somewhat predict what
    your husband may be experiencing ... and hope somehow, someway you can
    "both" mesh back together again and share the joys of this new
    baby-to-be.
    
    Good luck and God Bless!
    
    Dottie
    
    PS:  If it were "ME", I'd probably attempt a heart-to-heart
         "uninterrupted" (tyke soundly sleeping!) discussion with him to
         find out what he's feeling/experiencing with this new pregnancy
         (and try so hard not to react until he's all done talking AND
         I've had a chance - eg. overnite - to digest the conversation)
         and then think about proposals on how "WE" might be able to 
         get a handle on it.   NOTE:  "WE"!!
     

    I really had to smile when I read this note.  The author could be me!
    
    During my first pregnancy, my husband attended every doctor's visit,
    went  to Lamaze classes, sympathized with my discomfort, took me out
    for dinner, etc, etc, etc.  (Heavy sigh)
    
    He attended the birth with great excitement and joy, wonder at the new
    life we had created.  A proud pappa indeed!
    
    During my second pregnancy he was happy, went to the first appointment,
    and one near term.  He read the paper during labor, with an occasional
    "how you doing honey, can I get you anything?"  Very proud pappa of a
    baby boy.
    
    During my third pregnancy he never saw the doctor till we went in for
    delivery.  They shook hands like they were old buddies, and shot the
    breeze for a few minutes while I settled in.  Labor was a few in and
    outs to the hospital cafeteria for a bite to eat.  Delivery was support
    during the pushing stage.  (Thank God for labor nurses!!!!!)  The proud
    pappa of another baby boy.
    
    I think you get my drift.  I love my husband dearly and I know he loves
    me.  But the thrill of first time pappahood just could not be matched. 
    He just didn't get into it the second and third times like he did the
    first.  As a woman, a pregnant woman, you CAN'T HELP but get into it. 
    You are into it, and it is into you!  
    
    I resented it.  I damn well did!  I felt like hey, we're in this
    together, but how come I'M the one who has to make all the sacrifices,
    make sure things happen, like doctor's appts, sonograms, etc. while you
    don't seem to care?
    
    We talked about it and he admitted that it wasn't that he didn't care
    or want this upcoming child.  It just wasn't NEW to him this time.  It
    was old hat.  He'd tucked that first experience under his belt, and
    this time around was not so new, mysterious or exciting.  He was a pro
    now. :-)
    
    I can say it helped me understand where he was coming from, and he was
    honest about how he felt.  I cna't say I stopped resenting him for his
    lack of attentiveness/caring/whatever that I felt I deserved because I
    was pregnant with OUR child.
    
    He loves all of our children, passionately.  One thing - He is not
    pregnant, you are.  And there's no way you can make him feel what
    you're feeling, or go through what the pregnancy brings.  I think
    sometimes we expect too much, and so are dissapointed.
    
    Someone once said to me, and I think it is SO true - Childbirth is the
    business of women, and should remain so.  Think about it.
    
    Best of LUck
    

    First off, sorry about that blank reply.  Not my day today. 
    
    I agree with .4 & .5.  When I went thru my pregnancy it was my first
    and my SO's second.  He was on the road _all_ the time expect for his
    brief visits on holidays.  I had a high risk pregnancy and was scared
    to death.  I went to all but one Lamaze class without him and thank God
    for my girlfriend who attended with me.  
    
    In the beginning I was pretty understanding, as I knew we needed the
    money and he couldn't find any work here in town, but as time went on I
    became very resentful and I too decided that I wouldn't let him in on
    any of the happenings and even though he had promised to be home for
    the birth, I decided I wouldn't tell him until after the baby was born. 
    I know now that I was more hurt than anything by what I felt was a very
    uncaring attitude and my emotions played a very big part in my
    irrational thoughts.  After much stress over everything, I ended up
    going into labor 2 months early and was put on tributalene (sp?) and in
    bed.  My SO came home just 2 days before the birth of our son and was
    there for the whole labor.  I was never so glad that I didn't get my
    wishes of not having him there, every bad feeling I had towards him 
    vanished at the sight of OUR son.  
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say, is it was not a new experience for my
    SO and he had no idea of how important it was to me to have him there
    or even how scared I was, because I _never_ told him, until after the
    fact.  I think the advice you have been given so far, about TALKING to
    your husband is the best advice you can have.  I can guarantee you, I
    learned a valuable lesson the hard way, but was lucky because the
    results ended up positive.  I couldn't even imagine trying to raise my
    son now without his dad.  Communication is imperative.
    
    Good luck, 
    M

    What struck me most about your note was that it didn't appear that you
    have tried to really talk with him about his behavior this time. Does
    he know how upset you are?
    
    I am 5 months pregnant with our 2nd child and both my husband and I feel
    DIFFERENT this time. I find my thoughts focused on life after the baby
    is here (the great stuff like what she/he will look like, smell like,
    the first time she/he smiles at us, my son holding his new sibling in
    his lap---and the bad stuff like DAYCARE!! FINANCES!! SICK DR VISITS
    etc..). I don't do half as much thinking about the baby that's in me
    right now. Somtimes I catch sight of myself in the mirror and am
    stunned for just a second by my already large belly (oh, yeah, I am
    pregnant!!).
    
    My husband was not as involved as yours was the first time, he went to
    a few check-ups and attended all the classes but was just outstanding
    at labor and delivery. This pregnancy, he has needed reminders (like I
    have too!). We had a long talk about a month ago and I had to ask him to 
    please talk more about his feelings with this baby, to rub my tummy every 
    now and then. Part of my concern was that I needed his excitement and 
    involvement to help me get excited. And now not a day goes by without a
    rub of my tummy and a "How ya doin in there kid?" type of comment from
    him.  It's really helped.
    
    The second pregnancy IS different for both of you and I can only
    encourage you to talk about both your feelings ASAP. 
                       

    I don't know whether this is relevant to .0's situation or not,
    but I thought I'd share it, since so many women enjoy pregnancy
    and it's easy to forget that for some of us, it's a difficult and
    unwelcome condition that has to be endured for the sake of the
    result, and it's no reflection on us as mothers or as people that
    we don't like how it feels.  And it has no bearing whatsoever on
    how you feel about the child you actually hold in your arms.  
    
    During my last pregnancy -- the third time for me, the second for
    my partner -- I repeatedly caught myself projecting my own
    ambivalences and resentments onto my partner and then blaming and
    resenting him because he wasn't talking about his feelings, which
    weren't really his but mine. 
    
    The first time was "Wow, I'm pregnant!"  The second time was as .7
    put it -- "Oh, that's right, I'm pregnant."  The third time it's,
    "Oh, shit, I'm pregnant.  Isn't there a better way to do this,
    like maybe leaving it in the refrigerator to rise, like bread?" I
    don't mean that I didn't want the baby, but I didn't want all the
    hassle and discomfort and stress and tiredness and everything else
    that go with being pregnant.  And since being pregnant in the
    first place was a bit of a surprise, I had a lot of trouble
    distinguishing my resentment of the *condition* of my body from
    what I felt for the *baby* who was causing the condition.  And
    since I couldn't really admit that to myself, instead I accused
    Neil of not caring, of not really wanting this baby, etc. etc.
    
    We had to talk, and quarrell, a lot before we got that worked
    through. 
    
    The issue of who you want for your labor coach and whether your
    husband should be there are two separate issues.  The labor coach
    should be someone you feel comfortable working with, someone you
    feel you can trust, someone you can count on to stay cool-headed
    and not mind when you scream at them.  If you would feel more
    comfortable with a close friend or your mother (my mother was my
    labor coach the first time), that's fine and that's your right. 
    But that doesn't mean your husband can't BE there to participate
    in and witness the birth of the baby that's his as much as yours. 
    
    --bonnie
    --bonnie

    .8  Speaking of labor coaches...
    
    I would never ask my husband to be my labor coach again.  To be there,
    to witness the birth yes.  But for coaching and helping you through the
    pain and work of birthing - I'd pick an experienced female labor coach,
    midwife, etc. anyday.  FWIW
    

This reply is being posted for the author of 328.0.

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator
---------------------------------------------------

I am in disagreement with the term "power play" or "control" in this 
situation.  I see it as shifting the responsibility.  Why is it my
responsibility to keep him informed of doctor appts., sonograms, etc.?
He knows where to find the information, how to participate, and if he
is interested then he should take some initiative.

I know he feels the same way in other situations.  We have friends
who we have invited over several times.  After they declined a few
times in a row, he said "Well next time just tell them the ball is
in their court, and for THEM to call US if they would like to do
something - we aren't calling them anymore."   I agree - if you
ask someone several times to participate in something and they decline
or show no interest, you usually quit asking.

Who knows how I will feel when the time comes, but right now I feel
like I will not tell him anything about doctor appts. or sonogram
unless he asks.  When I go into labor I will make some effort to find
him and let him know, but if he doesn't try to be available (wear a pager,
forward his phone at work to whatever room he is in, etc.) then I will
probably not try very hard to find him.  If he wants to be there I won't
stop him, but I certainly don't feel any comfort in his being there - it
will be for his own needs, not mine.

Control or power?  No.  Putting the responsibility where it belongs?  Yes.

    It seems in the basenote like you are very _hurt_ by your husband's
    apparent lack of interest.  And the decision to withhold information
    and keep him out of the delivery room seems like an attempt to hurt
    him back.  But who else are you hurting?  Yourself, because you
    are pushing him _further_ away, and the baby, who doesn't have the
    opportunity to decide if s/he wants his/her father there.  Instead
    of doing something indirect, which is going to make you more angry
    at him later if he lets you keep him out, why not tell him you are
    hurt and angry, and talk it through?
    	Linda

    This bitter response tends to suggest that there is more going on here
    than just your husbands lack of interest in your pregnancy and that
    there is a definite lack of communication.  Often this breakdown
    seems to happen because the partners take each other for granted, and
    sometimes it is "helped" by the kind of passive defiance suggested
    by the .10 response.
    
    If you are bitter and resentful now, I shudder to think how you are
    both going to feel when you start having your sleep broken up night
    after night with a baby and are nearly exhausted all the time.
    
    Because I get the feeling that there are more issues at stake here
    than the one on the table ... I would seriously recommend having a
    chat with an EAP counsellor.  I'm sure we're all pleased to be what
    help we can, but there is a limit to what we can do, especially through
    this medium.
    
    Good luck ...
    
    STuart

    
    You say he did go to the sonogram appointment with you for this
    pregnancy--so he obviously wants to be involved at some level.  If you
    don't tell him when your next sonogram appointment is--and he finds out
    after the fact--he is going to be angry.  I think because you are so
    hurt and angry and what you perceive is his rejection--you want to hurt
    him back and make him feel like you do.
    
    Different people relate in different ways and far be it from me to tell
    you how to communicate with your spouse.  One thing is for sure--when
    he does find out he's missed the sonogram, he will be angry.  At that
    point, you will need to be prepared for the conversation that most
    everyone here is urging you to have now.
    
    It's really just a matter of now or later.  Why not swallow some of
    your pride and hurt--get a babysitter, go out to dinner or just sit
    quiety in the car and talk?  Tell him how you're feeling.  Chances are,
    he doesn't have a clue.
    
    And if he doesn't get po'd about missing the sonogram--believe me, he
    will get po'd about either missing the birth or not being included to
    the level he would like to be.  AT SOME POINT you are going to have to
    have a long discussion with him.  Wouldn't it be better to do it
    now--before things go too far?
    
    I don't mean to defend him--because it sounds like he is treating this
    pregnancy as if you had something as simple as a cold--but I've heard
    from many of my women friends (women who have wonderful, caring
    husbands) that they felt like copped liver the 2nd and 3rd time
    around--not only by their husbands, but by their doctor as well.
    
    It's unfortunate, because we need the same TLC as the first time. 
    But I guess it's not perceived that way from the outside world.
    
    Even I'm guilty of it.  Whenever I meet a pregnant woman, if it's her
    first I get all excited and bubbly and there really is something
    special about someone who's pregnant for the 1st time.  After that, I
    still get excited and all--but it's different.  It's sort-of like,
    "well, we've all done this and we know what to expect and the
    expectations are different, etc."  I hate to admit it, but it's true.
    
    So maybe you need to re-educate hubs as to what your needs are and
    hopefully, you can reach an acceptable compromise--one that doesn't
    freeze him out your pregnancy--and one that doesn't make you feel like
    he doesn't care.
    
    Good luck,
    Bonnie
    
    

I was discussing this note with my fiancee, and she asked a very pertinent
question that I didn't see the answer to in either note from the anonymous
author - was this child planned?  (And I'd add, was the first?)

The answer to this question would shed a lot of light on the husband's
feelings.  If this child was "an accident", and he didn't really want to have
a second child (or maybe not even a first), it might go a long way towards
explaining what is happening.

However, I still see the author's stated intent of withholding information
as a "power play".  She is turning their relationship into a sort of contest
rather than a cooperative effort.  By withdrawing more, she will only serve
to widen the gulf between her and her husband.

					Steve

    On the contrary, I believe that the basenoter made it clear that SHE
    was the one who was somewhat ambivilent about this pregnancy, and that
    her husband at least says he is excited about it.  If this is the case,
    then it goes a long way toward explaining her resentment that her
    husband can be there for the "fun" parts - the sonogram, the birth;
    and yet doesn't have to take any of the "responsibility" (any of the
    following:  tired all the time, nausea, weight gain, stretch marks,
    varicose veins, going to DR's appointments,labor, etc. etc.).  
    If she felt wonderful about this pregnancy her husband's taking part 
    in the more mundane side might not be as important.  If however she is 
    ambivilent, she may be more focused on the "downside" of pregnancy and
    be feeling (rightfully so!) that it isn't fair that she alone has to 
    experience the lousy parts where he gets to "pop in" for the fun parts. 
    At least the last time she went through this, she didn't have to empty the 
    cat's box - now there's some compensation!
    
    In my opinion this poor woman can't win.  Keeping her husband from
    attending the birth isn't really going to even the score, actually
    there is probably NOTHING that will even the score.  She might do
    well to focus on the fact that even though the woman alone has to 
    go through the pregnancy and birth, there is also a very special kind
    of bond between mother and child which the father of the child will
    never truly experience.  An odd kind of "revenge", but it's there
    nevertheless.
    
    I disagree with many of the previous notes which I believe do not
    acknowledge the validity of this woman's feelings and instead jump
    all over her as pulling "power plays".  Put yourselves in her shoes
    for a minute.  Think of how you feel when you're in a situation where
    you feel that you are carrying an unfair share of a burden; think of
    how angry, frustrated and powerless you feel and the lengths to
    which you will go to vindicate yourself.  Talking to her husband is
    of course good advice but only to the extent that it will help her
    get some of her feelings off her chest.  In the end she has to somehow
    deal with the fact, as many of us do on a daily basis, that "it ain't
    fair and there's nothing we can do about it".  I hope that she can
    find the inner strength to get through this in a positive way.
    

>    In my opinion this poor woman can't win.  Keeping her husband from
>    attending the birth isn't really going to even the score, actually
>    there is probably NOTHING that will even the score.  She might do
>    well to focus on the fact that even though the woman alone has to 
>    go through the pregnancy and birth, there is also a very special kind
>    of bond between mother and child which the father of the child will
>    never truly experience.  An odd kind of "revenge", but it's there
>    nevertheless.

Do you see life as a power play too ?  Neither alone should be a winner here ...
no one has to "even the score" ... no one has to seek revenge.  The important
thing is that neither should be a LOSER ... and with the power struggle going
on, both will lose in the end.

There is NO REASON whatsoever that both parties should be winners.  If there
is a loser now, there will be far more losers later.

	re .15

	I don't think anyone is "slamming" the basenoter.  She asked for 
suggestions, she's getting them.  

**Moderator reminder**

	It *is* possible to ask for a supportive replies only.  The 
moderators will respect (and enforce if necessary) any such requests.

**End Reminder)**

	
	As for the basnote...

	While I have not gone through your exact situation, I have experienced 
variations on it.  Some random thoughts... 


	My pregnancy was unplanned and unexpected.  (I was on the pill at the 
time.  Surprise!)  Gary's reaction was, and I quote, "Shit!"   Now I'm the 
kind of person that when something bad (or unplanned) happens, I don't dwell on
it, I just get on with things, get going with the process of living with the 
situation as it is now, not as I expected it to be.  (Oh all right, I'll be 
honest sometimes I *do* dwell on what might have been *while* I'm getting on 
with it.  :-))  Gary, on the other hand, really has to mull things around for 
a while before he's ready to move.  The first few weeks/months of my pregnancy,
I not only had to "live with it" (I'm one of those that does *NOT* enjoy being
pregnant) but I had to be my own support and support Gary too.  Talk about 
unfair!  Resent it?  You bet I did!  BUT, I talked to him about it.  We 
continued to talk.  I made sure he *knew* how important it was to me to have his
support.  He came around.  Toward the end of the pregnancy (the last 1-2 months) 
he came to all OB/Gyn visits.  He was in the OR for the C-section (something he 
SWORE he wouldn't do).  (He's not good with blood.)  When I came back to work, 
he took a 3 month leave of absence to be home with Katie.  
	
	Bear in mind that some people are "calendar-impaired" :-).  I am very 
time conscious.  I always know when the next appointment for every member of 
the family is (including 7 cats' vaccination schedules).  Gary is lucky to make 
it to work on time 4 time out of 5.  Gary and I go BOTH go to all of Katie's 
well visits. (We alternate sick visits by who is most able to get away.)  He is
definately interested.  He definately would not remember them without my help.
It frustrates me to no end.  But I have to remember that it is a difference in 
style NOT an indication of lack of interest. 

	While I understand that you don't feel that your decision to lessen your
husband's involvement in the birth isn't a power play, I'll take a big risk of
sounding "holier than thou" and say that I don't think that you are being honest
with yourself.  And I say that as someone who has waited until Gary was in the
kitchen watching, to throw away some frozen dinners I had gotten for him, 
because he had complained about what brand of something I had gotten for him at 
the store.  (It's a LONG story, better suited to the note on division of house-
work... :-) )  Was it a power play?  You betcha!  Would I have admitted it at 
the time?  No way!  I was too wrapped up in how angry I was and how best I could
lash out at Gary at the time to be honest with myself.  Not only that, but I was
angry that that he couldn't guess why I was angry.  And so on....  

	My suggestions are:  

	1) Really read Bonnie's note about her ambivalence and how she projected
it on her husband.  

	2) TALK to your husband!  Don't just ask him if something is wrong.
(That's like asking your kid what they did in school today: "nothing".)  Start
by telling him how you feel: what you are excited about, what you are worried 
about, how his involvement or lack thereof in the pregnancy makes YOU feel.  
If your anger and hurt has gotten to the point that you don't see how you can
open up this kind of disucssion without overt hostility (I know I have trouble 
with this), talk to EAP.  They do family and marital counseling and offer 
services off-site and off work hours.  I stongly reccommend them! 

	Lastly, it may not help much, but here's an electronic hug ().  I hope 
that you and your husband get back on the same wavelength soon.

Tracey  

    re .16
    
    No I don't see life as a power play, the point I was trying to make,
    and judging from your reply, I guess didn't make very effectively, is
    that if this woman is not feeling very good about her situation and
    is feeling powerless and angry, then it is only natural for her to feel
    resentment and seek revenge. (ref .17, we all do it!)
    
    Everyone in the world telling her how much she is going to hurt her 
    husband by carrying out her proposed actions will not 
    help her until she can somehow convince herself that her "r.o.i" is 
    not out of proportion to her husband's. (ref. her comments about him 
    being around for the "fun" parts and remarks around privilege only
    coming with responsibility.  In my opionion that says that she 
    feels that she alone is dealing with the "not fun", "responsible" parts).
    I am NOT saying that she should be keeping a scorecard.  It sounds like she 
    already is though, and until she can rectify that I believe it will 
    be difficult for her to feel better. If she can accomplish this by
    talking with him, great, but it didn't sound like she was exactly up
    for that.
    
    I was just trying to suggest one way that might help her see that although 
    she might be carrying a larger burden, she also reaps a special reward.
    
    BTW, I would love to hear some more from the basenoter.  How are
    things?
    
    
    

The only way to resolve a problem of interaction between two people is to
explore your own feelings as to why you feel the way you do, and then to
interact in a way that is constructive for you.

The point is that whatever the base noter decides to do, she should do
something positive for herself, rather than do something negative against
her husband and look at it that way ... there is a significant difference
between the two ideas.  The point is that you cannot change another person,
all you can do is change yourself, and if you are lucky, the other person
will change to meet you, but the point here is that you must change to
suit you, not to spite someone else.  After all, you can do something to
spite someone else that doesn't make you any happier or contented.

This is a very difficult concept to explain the subtle differences.  Sometimes
the differences are so great that it is easy and other times they are so
slim it is difficult. That is why  I really recommend that the base noter
seek professional counselling.

Note that counselling is not a negative reflection on yourself, but just an
educational experience.  If you didn't know the intricacies of your telephone,
you'd look in the book or ask other people who use the same kind of phone ...
that's all you are doing when seeing a counsellor.

Stuart

After going back and forth and back and forth and .... many times on whether
to inform my husband of the sonogram, I finally decided to go ahead and tell
him about it.  He was surprised that he had not known sooner and asked if I
wanted him there.  My reply was "Only if you're interested" and his reply
was "I don't know why you keep thinking I'm not interested in this because
I am."   Well guess what?  He never showed up.  I think the fact that he
KNEW about it and didn't show up hurt me much more than if he never had the
opportunity.  I very much regret telling him about it, and feel even more
strongly that he doesn't belong there for the delivery of this child.

All of the suggestions to talk about it are wonderful, assuming that
communication can exist.  We have not been successful at communicating, and
our "talks" usually lead to awful fights.  It's a nice thought.  For now, I
think we co-exist (share an address and checkbook) for the sake of the child,
and I am all out of energy to want or try to change it anymore.

I think my biggest hope is that some of the male readers of this conference
will remember, during their wife's 2nd and subsequent pregnancies, to take
a part in it and be supportive, even if it's not "new" anymore - give her a
backrub, footrub, etc. often.  Ask about her feelings, tell her yours, ask to
feel the baby kick and move, talk about the baby, etc...  Even if she is not
anymore "excited" (by the newness like the 1st one) than you are, she is
constantly reminded of it, and needs to share the joys and burdens.

I hate to see marriages collapse, especially with children involved... have
you thought about seeking marriage counseling?  

Good luck.


Marty