Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    Amy,
    
    	I used cloth diapers for both of my children and thought they
    were fantastic!  (Although I did use pampers for outings.)
    
    	I did not use Borax on them.  Just Ivory Soap and hot water.
    I was told in my childbirth class that that's really all you need.
    I very rarely was left with any stains.  (I used to rinse out all
    solids in the toilet before putting the diaper in the pail.)
    
    	Also something I found very helpful was to fold the diaper just
    as you would to use it so when you're changing baby you don't have
    to worry about folding it first - it's all ready to go.  For newborns
    I had to fold the diaper in half first, then do a "diaper fold".
    
    	Sorry I couldn't tell you where to get Borax... but hope I've
    helped some.
    
    	Oh, also I was told that you CAN use bleach about once/month
    or so and it won't hurt anything.  At least my kids were never bothered
    by it and their both very sensitive light skinned girls.
    
    
    					jean

    I get Borax at the Stop&Shop in Westboro, MA. I'm not sure where
    you are, but I found it in the section with the bleaches.
    
    We don't wash with the Borax, but we put it in the diaper pail with
    liquid bleach to absorb odors. I use Lysol sanitizing bleach in with 
    the regular detergent after running the diapers and the pail solution 
    through the rinse cycle first. They come out pretty odor free that way.
    
            
    Dot

    we've never used Borax or bleach on our diapers....we are using the
    exact same cloth diapers now that we used on our first born....so
    they've been in continuous use for 5 years now (and I do mean
    *continuous*!). We rinse solids off into the toilet and put all diapers
    into the pail. We do not put any liquid into the pail (water, bleach,
    etc.), although we used to...we just found they come just as clean
    without it, and the pail doesn't weigh as much. My wife washes them
    every other day. They go through two complete was cycles, using regular
    detergent, and one extra rinse with fabric softener. This brings them
    out clean, odor free and soft. Yes, some are beginning to look stained,
    but after 5 years, that doesn't surprise me! And one or two are
    beginning to tear, but they've held up remarkably well. My wife has
    known several moms who used bleach regularly, and, though they had very
    white diapers, they wore out in a year or two, as the bleach destroys
    the cottom fabric. We can live with faint stains, as long as they are
    otherwise clean and odor free. 
    Although we use disposables for travel, we LOVE cloth diapers! And I
    think our kids bottoms liked 'em better, too!
    --dave--

--dave--

Just what "regular detergent" does she use?

Thanks,
-Amy

    We used to use whatever was on sale/cheapest, and that was fine, bu we
    now use Amway's liquid detergent. Our daughter does have semi-sensitive
    skin (easily got diaper rashes, and got yeast infections farily often),
    and the double wash, extra rinse method, always seemed to get rid of any
    waste material and detergent...they always feel, look, and smell clean.
    
    --dave--

    We are thinking of going cloth with our second child (disposables for
    longer "outings"). What are diaper services really like? Do they bleach
    the heck out of the diapers so there could be skin issues to deal with
    or use extra harsh detergents because they have no idea what's been
    inside them? I guess my only concern is with the "sanity" of using
    diapers mixed up with everyone else's - I assume they don't assign you
    a set of diapers which you get back every time. Do they at least use a
    softener as well?
    
    I have no desire to wash the diapers myself right now - maybe I'll get
    motivated but I doubt it - so I'm relying on a good service for now. 
    
    Anyone know the name of the rubber pants that are supposed to be
    breathable? We'd like to use them.
    
    Andrea 

Andrea,

The "breathable" rubber pants are called diaper wraps.  You can get them
at Calverts for about $6-7.  If you want 100% Cotton, then you have to
get Nikky's.  The cheapest place I could find them (at $12.95 each) was:

          100% Cotton Diaper Co.
          P.O. Box 2005
          Plattsburgh, NY 12901
          518-873-6486 (M-F 9AM-8PM)

-Amy (who's gonna try plastic pants, first ... $1 each)

    RE .7 Thanks for the tip. Diapers wraps will do. 
    
    I just remember what they are called, or maybe it's just what a friend
    calls them. They are "Duckies". They look like regular plastic pants
    but are supposedly breathable. They feel a little different. If I am
    recalling right I've seen them in catalogs like Right Start. They also
    come in great colors. 
    
    Andrea

    RE washing clothes/diapers with Ivory
    
    Bear in mind that Ivory is a SOAP, not a detergent. That means, that
    overtime there tends to be a soap buildup.  When I first had Ryan, I
    assumed that everything, including cloth diapers, should be washed with
    Ivory (just like the ads push for baby stuff). After a month or so, my
    doctor pointed out that I'd be much better off with detergent since it
    rinses out more effectively.  
    
    We also used Borax in the diaper pail, as well as an additive to the
    diaper load in place of chlorine bleach, since Borax is as effective,
    and less harmful.
    

    My father-in-law was a major appliance repairman for *many* years, and
    is (IMHO) a very knowledgeable person on what can and does go wrong
    with appliances. He cautioned us, when we were expecting our first, to
    NEVER use soap in the washing machine (Ivory Snow, or otherwise). He
    says it has a great tendency to cause the rubber parts of your washer
    (those inside the machine that come in contact with the soapy water,
    like gaskets and seals, particularly those in the pump) to dry out, get
    hard, deteriorate, and lead to water leakage and major machine damage.
    He feels it shortens the life span of a machine by about 50%, so if your
    machine may have lasted 10 years, it will only last 5. If a gasket in
    the pump leaks, and water leaks out, it will often drip onto/into the
    motor, casuing the motor to burn out....we are talking major bucks in
    repairs/replacement here. It was good enough for us not to ever use
    it..didn't want to take the chance. Now, I hear you all..."I"ve use
    Brand X for 10 years now, and my machine works just fine." Well, that's
    great...you are lucky....there are, of course, exceptions to each and
    every rule. Just wanted to pass on the warning from an experienced,
    "in-the-know" person.
    
    --dave--

    I rinse solids down the toilet.  Don't soak in anything, just wash
    every two-three days.
    
    Wash all the diapers with powdered bleach (easier on the
    environment, less harsh, doesn't smell), hot water, cold rinse.
    
    Add the Biobottoms cotton diaper covers and wash again with Cheer Free
    liquid (no dyes or fragrance), hot water, cold rinse.
    
    Rinse again with 1/4 - 1/2 cup vinegar.  This sets the Ph so that when
    the baby urinates it isn't as irritating (we are in a hard water area).
    
    This method has resulted in a rash free baby for all of Alex's 7
    months.

re: .6

With about 6 baby-years of a diaper service, we never had a skin issue to deal 
with, at least that we remotely suspected the diapers.

No you don't have a "personal" set of diapers.  However, the cleaning process 
used by the diaper services washes them twice, and uses water much hotter 
than the water you would use washing at home.  So I don't really see much 
concern with the fact that you don't always get the same ones.

The diapers we got were always soft.  In fact they _seemed_ even softer than 
they were, because they are very thick.  They use very heavy duty diapers; 
I've never seen them in the stores, so I'd assume that it would be difficult, 
if not impossible, to find similar quality diapers in a store.

We were very happy with the diaper service.

Clay

    My daughter has extremely sensitive skin.  I used a diaper service and
    she never experienced any discomfort.  I used the cloth diapers even
    when we went away on vacations by auto.  I used disposables when we
    flew across country.  She had a rash by the time we landed even though
    I had changed her very frequently.  I had to dip her bottom in water
    every time I could when I changed her just to keep the rash in check. 
    It didn't really clear up 'till I got her back in her cloth diapers. 
    The diaper service diapers come in several sizes - and you get as many
    as you need each week.  My house never smelled like dirty diapers.  Her
    day care provider used them and said that she preferred them to the the
    disposables that the other children had.  When she no longer needed
    them the was awarded a cirtificate of achievment by the diaper service
    company.  The same man did the deliveries during the 3 years and he was
    very nice.  TUsing the service was cheaper than using a good quality
    disposable would have been.  I changed her frequently and it was always
    nice to be able to grab a diaper to throw over my shoulder when she was
    an infant.
    
    I'm in NE Mass.  Send me mail if you want to know the name of the
    service.
    
    Sheila
    
    

    I used diaper service for Carrie for the two years that we needed
    diapers.  I don't know how I survived without the service when Lolita
    was small.  The diapers are very soft, cheaper then disposables, at
    least in Colorado, and my service was willing to deliver to me and the
    daycare provider at no extra charge.  
    
    When Carrie graduated to trainers, they provided training pants until
    we were secure enough with her to go with our own.  Since I don't have
    a washer at home this was a real plus.  The house didn't reek of diaper
    smell, and the deoderizer in the pail provided by the service is quite
    effective.  
    
    The only rash problems I had, were when I did have her in disposables,
    just after birth, and when she had a food reaction to apricots.

    After using various types of diaper wraps, including one listed
    in this notes file via phone order, we have
    found one absolutely magnificently designed product, BUMKINS.  They
    are a very thick, high quality cotton, covered with nylon.  The velcro
    is super heavy duty.  For those in the Worcester MA area, they are sold
    at Living Earth health foods.
    
    steve

    Andrea,
    
    I think the pants you're thinking of are called "Rubber Duckies".  They
    are made of nylon and come both as pants (like regular rubber pants)
    and with velcro (like Nikkys and Diaperaps).  They come in BRIGHT
    colors!  They are usually about $5 in fancy baby stores.  I can get you
    the address of the company, if you want.
    
    I've had good luck with these, as well as Diaperwraps and Nikkys.  The
    "100% cotton" Nikky's do have a rubber (or something) layer between 2
    layers of cotton.  All three products feel soft inside and out.
    
    Like the others who have replied, we had very good luck with the diaper
    service.  The rashes my kids got, in cloth or plastic diapers, had to
    do with other factors, such as teething or sickness.  They had VERY
    sensitive skin, but were fine in diaper service diapers.  
    
    The diapers we got were always very clean and very soft.
    
    One of the best things about the diaper service was having a million
    diapers around for every other purpose, particularly wipes (with a
    bottle of water on the changing table).
    
    Good luck!
    
    Jane
     

    re:.15
    
    I was going to ask if anyone has used Bumkins...  I saw them advertised
    in the back of Parents magazine and now I'm anxious to try them.  They
    can be ordered through the mail, I think.
    
    - K

    
    Hi,
    
    	I did use Ivory Snow for the diapers, but now that I think about
    it I believe it was only for the first few weeks my girls were home,
    then switched to regular detergent.
    
    	In any case, I never had a problem with diaper rash (except
    when they had a cold).  
    
    
    					jean 

    Just an aside.  Our pediatrician recommended a diaper service for at
    least six weeks.  Reason being if you want to use cloth diapers he said
    from birth to six weeks is when they go through the most diapers.  It's
    easier to use the service, THEN once you have a routine and more time
    (is that possible?) that you can wash, use your own cloth diapers.
    We're opting to use DyDee which is in almost every area this side of
    Worcester +.  
    
    Aside from delivering fresh diapers, taking out soiled ones, they also
    have the "bumpkins", "duckies", or whatever they are called, and you
    can buy these I believe for $6-8 (in that range).  My husband and I
    ordered some from a mail order company and they were $7.95 before we
    learned about the diaper service carrying them.  The pediatrician also
    recommended them rather than rubber pants and said to buy 4-6 of them
    and just vary the sizes so you have 2-3 at each stage, (when 1 is in
    laundry you have another, etc.)  I've seen these at Mother Care but
    they are 12.95 if I remember correctly.  
    
    I have not had our child yet (any time now), but I intend to use cloth
    diapers as my mom used them for 3 of us and none of us ever had diaper
    rashes.  My 2 friends used the service recently and it came highly
    recommended.  But now that the children go to day care they have to use
    disposables for sanitary health reasons, and I guess now the kids have
    developed rashes.  Also there's the environmental issue, and lets face
    it, every little effort helps, so we're doing our part in one way.
    
    The problem I've had is finding what to put in the diaper pail when I
    do decide to use my own cloth diapers and wash them at home.  (I have
    4 dozen already).  I read in here someone used Borax and water?  How
    much do you use?  My mom used to use something called.....(something)
    France, but I couldn't find it anywhere.  I remember it though for when
    she used it in the paid for little sister.  It was blue and smelled so
    nice.  
    
    Thanks!
    

    re:-1
    
    Bumkins are available at Cribs 'n Things at the Pheasant Lane Mall
    in Nashua for $34.95 for three!!!  Totally outrageous, IMO.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    re.19
    The blue stuff is called "LaFrance".  It is a bluing agent.  It really
    helps whiten things up, but you have to be careful to make SURE it is
    dissolved before adding it to your wash water.  I usually dissolve it
    in a quart of warm water, then add it to the wash.  I found out the
    hard way - the washer was agitating, so I thought I'd just pour it in
    and the agitation would distribute it. Left a nice blue stripe across
    the baby's white t-shirts!  If you do manage to get a blue stain, it
    washes right out.  But who wants to do the same load of laundry twice?
    (actually, who wants to do it ONCE?)
    Sarah
    

    I've never had personal experience with cloth diapers, but with AJ's
    colostomy until he was 16 months, I had LOTS of experience getting
    brown, green and other color stains out of clothes. (Same type stain as
    diapers, just in a different place)  As usual his ostomy bag would "let go"
    in a brand new, expensive or light colored outfit.  I used a combination 
    of two things, either Arm and Hammer  detergent, which is biodegradable and
    low in phosphate, and Borax Powder bleach.  99% of the stains came out 
    completely if I just took the time to rinse them in COLD while the stains 
    were fresh.  About once a month I'd do a clorine bleach load,(1/2 cup per 
    load not the recomended 1 cup/load) for the whites or lights.  
    I reasoned that if it had a stain that rendered it unwearable, what have I 
    got to loose by washing it in bleach (bibs included) usually the stain came
    out and very little damage to the colored parts.  I also did this to
    hand-me-downs from my nephew, whose mom said she just couldn't get the
    stains out.
    
    My sister used cloth diapers, washed them herself, except when
    traveling.  I remember vividly that by the first 24 hours her daughter
    was bloody raw from disposables.  She washed in whatever was on sale
    that was OK to use with a septic system.  
    
    Just my .02 worth!
    Lyn

    Ok, I've read through this topic but I still need some help. I just
    recently started washing my own diapers after 2 years of diaper service
    because I just wasn't going through that many diapers. Was this a big
    mistake? 
    
    I would estimate that I was diapers 2 times a week. I let the dirty
    diapers soak in pail with water and a little detergent. Then I would
    run them through a prewash cycle (hot water), then regular 14min wash
    (hot water again, cold rinse). The diapers were clean and fresh
    smelling.
    
    Now my sitter and I have noticed after Justine wets the diaper, it has
    a very strong ammonia smell to it. At first I thought it was the
    plastic pants, but now that my sitter mentioned it I wondering if it's
    the diapers. What should I do, extra wash cycles, bleach, someone
    mentioned vinegar? We have a water softener.
    
    Thanks, Jan 

The theory behind using vinegar in the final rinse is that it adjusts the ph 
so that the urine/diaper/skin reaction is reduced.  A little goes a long way,
experiment for your wash load size.

=ss

    RE: a few
    
    Please keep in mind that you want to use WHITE vinegar (unless you
    want pink diapers)...
    
    Dan

    Speaking of cloth diapers.... what do you do with dirty cloth diapers
    when you're out visiting? Carry a plastic bag? Or do you always use
    disposables when you're not going to be home when you change the baby?

    We carry a few plastic bags along in the "baby stuff" bag.
    
    It works fine, without any smell problem.
    
    I do recommend taking several plastic bags along even if you
    use disposables, in case you wind up having to change the
    whole outfit and need to put the dirty clothes away.
    
    		-John Bishop

    This may be sort of a tangent, but this seems to ba as good a place as
    any to pass this info along...
    
    Packed inside this week's delivery from Dydee Diaper (from Boston) was
    the usual flyer of information, which contained an announcement that
    effective immediately, Dydee of Boston would provide free diaper
    service for the duration of the war, to any family of a soldier serving 
    in the Gulf. They asked that interested parties call for full details.
    
    Just thought I'd pass it along FYI.
    
    Freddie

    An extra rinse cycle is always helpful with diapers.
    
    Washing soda in the wash cycle might help, too.
    
    --bonnie

    Just FYI, I found white vinegar at BJ in a gallon jug, for a price in
    the category of a "song and dance"!
    
    If you're close enough it might be worth buying it by the gallon.
    
    Lyn

    
    Vinegar is usually available by the gallon in the grocery store
    as well, no special trip required!   The women who cleans our
    house uses it on hardwood floors...so we buy it by the gallon.
    cj

RE: vinegar with cloth diapers

We buy vinegar by the gallon and Clorox in 1-1/2 gallon containers, both at 
Sam's Wholesale Club.  Pat puts 1-1/4 cups of vinegar into the second rinse 
of Michael's diapers.  But we have extremely alkaline water (Ph as high as 
8 sometimes!), so much less might do for people who don't live in the 
desert.  )^:

Just as an aside, after 14 months, the cloth diapers we bought at Sears 
when Michael was born have started showing signs of wear.  And they have 
also gotten rather thin through many, many washings and dryings.  At the 
same time the diapers were getting thinner, Michael was growing into more 
and more of a little fire hydrant.  It finally got so bad he would soak 
through his diaper, plastic pants (well, not through but around), and his 
clothes in *one hour*!  Pat couldn't even take him to the grocery store 
without worrying about changing him in the car.  Double diapers were good 
for 1-3/4 to 2 hours.  So we went back to good ol' Sears and discovered 
that they have added a higher level of quality cloth diaper to their 
selections since we bought the first time.  They call it "commercial" 
quality, and they're $19.99 a dozen.  They are *really* heavy-duty, almost 
like denim except soft of course.  Last night we went out to eat, and 
Michael wore one for 3-1/2 hours without soaking through.

Anyway, we're still advocates of cloth diapers, although we have had our 
trials and tribulations with them!

Steve

    I just HAVE to relate this incident I came home to last Sunday
    afternoon.  After having been away overnight I came home to find my
    wonderful husband vacuming and dusting in the livingroom.  As he pulled
    out the dust spray I decided that it was no longer necessary to keep
    the Couple dozen cloth diapers nice, clean and folded.  So I asked AJ
    to please go upstairs, told him where, and get a cloth diaper for dad
    to dust with.  He was up there several minutes, dead silence, so I
    called him.  He came to the top of the stairs looking blank and had
    absolutely NO idea what I really wanted.  He made several attempts,
    found several used dryer sheets, and miscellaneous things but never
    could figure out 1) what a Diaper stacker is and 2) what a cloth diaper
    even looks like.
    
    I guess thats what happens when you use disposables!!
    Lyn