Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I can certainly relate to your feelings..the only difference is I have
    to get rid of my cat. My daughter (who is 7) is very upset too and I
    dont know what to tell her. The cat is not ill, I just couldnt find
    another home for him and my current landlord wont let us keep him.  
                     

    We had an owl fly into my duaghters window last year and die.  We
    didn't notice it for some time until one day she was looking out
    her window and screamed.  She was 3 at the time.  We were very honest
    with her and told her that the owl was dead (she did not know it
    at the time, she thought it was just laying there).  My husband
    took the owl and buried it in our back yard.  We explained to Adrienne
    that the owl had gone to heaven with Jesus and that now he was alive.
    Well - let me tell you all the questions that came out of her! :-(
    After explaining to her the best we could she was able to understand
    what had happened.  To this day she will mention the owl and how
    it is up in heaven with Jesus.
    
    She has been going to Sunday school since she was about 2 1/2 years
    old - I am wondering if this helped her understand.  We/she has
    been saying prayers (Now I lay me down to sleep) and when she comes
    to the part about "If I should die...." she, at first cried and
    said that she did not want to die, but now she tells me she knows
    what it is all about!!  Amazing aren't they.
    
    Denise

    Sorry, but this strikes me as a pretty lousy approach in many ways.  I
    don't know what you could do now, but here are my blunt reactions.

    Most generally, I would need an awfully good reason to lie to my kids
    about anything important.  I hope protecting my image would never be
    enough.  If you had not thought through your choice sufficiently
    thoroughly to feel comfortable with it (even if painful), you shouldn't
    have done it.  If you felt comfortable with it, you shouldn't have
    been embarrassed to explain it to your children.

    One reason honesty is a good policy is because the opposite is risky. 
    Quite possibly your kids know or suspect that you have lied to them. 
    That may permanently undermine your credibility, for good reason.
    
    It may seem kind to try to shield your kids from short term pain.  But
    does it help them to try to make them think that we don't have to make
    painful choices in life?  Or that those choices need to be hidden from
    others, bottled up even from family members?  Wouldn't they be better
    served by learning that pain shared can be pain diminished?
    
    Clearly your strategy has not worked for the middle kid, who probably
    doesn't know what to believe about the dog, and has seemingly been
    denied a chance to get his honest grieving over with.  He might even be
    worried about what you'll do next (even to him?), and then cover up.
    
    Twice in the last year I had to choose euthenasia for long-time family
    pets, so I know how hard it can be, and hard to talk about.  But I made
    myself discuss it with the kids ahead of time, let them say good bye,
    and share my own feelings and tears.  I'm very glad I did.
    
    I really don't know what I would do now in your situation, but I would
    at least consider 'fessing up to the whole thing, painful as it would
    be.  Good luck, whatever your choice.
    
    		- Bruce

    We had a cat who developed problems that we could not tolerate. She
    peed *everywhere*...furniture, the kid's beds, etc. She then started
    leaving "piles" everywhere, carefully covering them with scatter rugs,
    blankets, sheets of paper, clothes...anything she could find. In short,
    no cause or cure was found. So we made the diffuicult decision to put
    her down. We told the kids (had been telling them for a while, as a
    matter of fact, sort of anticipating this), that Kitty was sick and we
    were going to hav eto do something about it. We told them we took her
    to the humane society, which we did. We had them put her right to
    sleep. We told the kids that they had taken care of Kitty and she
    wasn't coming back anymore. That satisfied them for quite some time.
    Our two oldest (now 5 and 3) just asked about her again the other day,
    even though its been at least 6-8 months since this happened. We told
    them (since they asked right out) that, yes, Kitty was dead now...that
    she had been very sick. They expressed slight sadness, and that was it. 
    I would not advocate the "dog in in Maine" approach. What if you, for
    some reason get an opportunity to visit Maine, or want to see a tourist
    spot ther, or whatever? How will you then explain that you can't go see
    the dog?
    Beleiving this, how would I go about getting out of it? I'm not sure,
    but knowing my own kids, and how they'd probably react to/trust me, I'd
    probably get them together at a quiet time, and tell them that we'd had
    to have the dog put to sleep because we couldn't risk it biting any
    more children. I'd apologize for having told them otherwise, but
    explain that I had felt I was doing the right thing at the time, to
    make them least upset. I'd explain that now I think that might have
    been wrong, and that I was being honest with them now. 
    I suspect your 6 yr. old may be having trouble with something psych
    people like to call "closure", or "unfinished business". He probably
    feels that as long as the dog is in Maine, there is a chance he could
    have it back sometime. An end to this may upset him at the time he's
    told, but I suspect it will resove the every nite crying episodes.
    We believe in, and try for, honesty, as far as they can understand,
    with our children. Even right after we took the cat to be put to sleep,
    if one child had asked "Is Kitty dead?" we would have answered honestly
    with a "yes".
    Very difficult situation, not an enviable one...hope whatever you
    decide turns out okay for you and your family!
    
    --dave--

    I personally would have told the children the truth that the dog was
    "put to sleep". My main reason being that I would be so afraid that
    someone else might say something in passing that especially the older
    children would understand.  
    
    I would have explained the situation that you did not want the dog to
    bite anyone else because the next time it could be very serious (i.e.
    little baby, elderly person, etc). Remember , you did not put the dog
    down; you just made the decision that the dog was better off in another
    "dimension" (whatever you chooses to believe/think - with God, just
    dead, etc). There was a vet that put the dog down. 
    
    This is a very difficult decision for anyone. You have been using a
    story on the children for 2 months. Maybe your son cries because he is
    mad at you for sending his dog to a farm - a place where it is still
    living, he just cannot get there. With "dead", the dog is really gone.
    
    I do understand your reasoning - it is very difficult with children. We
    just had to give away our dog and cat because of an international move
    and I still miss the them (I put on 8 pounds cleaning up after my son
    instead of giving it to the dig and cat!!). Do talk about the dog. It
    will make things better for all of you.
    
    I don't know if you can go back on your story now but I'd hate to be
    the child finding out about it in another 10 years and think my parents
    lied to us all that time (despite that fact that you thought is was for
    their own good).
    
    Good luck with a difficult situation.
    Andrea                                                           

Try to avoid using the term "put to sleep", especially with very young
children.  I read that this might cause young children to develop a fear of
going to sleep because they are afraid they will die and not wake up,
like kitty or poochie.

I'm not sure what phrase should be used, "Killed" or "put to death" seem
kinda harsh.

    I agree with .6 about not using the term "put to sleep". To this
    day I still remember my mother telling me about how a sick child
    in our neighborhood that "went to sleep" was buried.
    
    "Killed", "put to death", although harsh concepts are really part
    of how we live.  Children need to come to grips with such concepts.
    Perhaps "put down" is a tad less harsh.  Perhaps one could talk
    about "executing" a dangerous animal.

    I will speak from my own experience when my mother lied to me
    about my  cat Cinamon who she had put to sleep when I was three
    but told me she ran away to another persons hoise to live.  I
    spent after that about tow years of and on lookingat every cat
    thinking I might find Cinamon.  It also hurt me tremnedously that
    whenever I would ask my mother to take me to where Cinamon was so I
    could see her my mother refused. Of course she refused, my cat was
    dead;  but that's not what she told me as I believed my cat was
    still very much alive.!!
    eventually I learned the truth and quite frankly it put a rift
    between me trusting whatever my mother told me.  
    In short she was trying to save face in my eyes so I wouldn't think
    her a cat killer, however as a result she took no notice of my
    feelings and my faith in her at the time..and what it was like to
    believ my pet was alive and not being able to let go of her as a result
    of my mother's lie.
    
      To this day that whole incident is very upsetting to me.
    
    Fay
    

    I too believe that telling the truth is the way to go.  As one noter 
    mentioned, I would also recommend "coming clean" with all three of your
    children.  I "lost" my dog when I was six - I was told the truth i.e.
    the dog had died and was reassured that he was in Heaven having a great
    time...  When my daugther lost her cat, she was about 3.5-4 and I told
    her the truth : it slipped off the 6th floor balcony and by the time I 
    found out and went to it... it was dead.  I believe that "death" is a
    part of life, so to speak...  Hard as it is, we all need to learn to
    cope with pain, sorrow and things difficult... rather that the first
    encounter with such hardship be of this nature than say the loss of a
    parent or sibling...
    
    P.S. I really try hard never ever to lie... but on the rare occasions I
    have, within a short time I tell her the truth, and why I didn't say it
    in the first place.  Whereas this does not make up for lying in the
    first place, I would like to believe that it shows a) understanding
    that often lying comes from fear of the consequences of facing the
    truth, and we all have that fear at some time or another... and b) that
    between us, even if it takes a day to admit the truth, we both
    basically love and trust eachother enough to come clean regardless of
    the consequences.  e.g. our relationship is much, much more important
    than "saving face" or avoiding the consequences.  (by "lie" I mean the
    promise to buy a candy bar on the way home and forgetting to and
    supplying the answer/lie that the store was shut...I am not referring
    to more serious subjects such as the one under discussion).
    
    FWIW - D.
    I am not advocating double standards about when to lie and when not to. 
    I am only sharing with you my own experience and shame at having lied
    to a kid who trusts me 100%... In the hopes that you will find some
    comfort in this knowledge and perhaps the courage to speak to your
    kids.

    re: telling kids the cat disappeared . . .
    
    Steven's cat really did disappear.  She just walked off a few
    weeks ago -- we don't know if she found a family without a
    toddler, got hit by a car someplace we didn't think to look, was
    shot by a surly farmer, or was kidnapped by aliens.  We've checked
    the humane society and the want ads and so forth, but naturally he
    still feels bad about it.
    
    Does anybody have any tips for helping him deal with a situation
    where there really isn't likely to be any closure to his grief?
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    Did you consider getting another kitty from the shelter?
    
    It's a hard thing to lose a pet that's close to your heart.  I still
    grieve for a dog who disappeared some 14 years ago.  It's the not
    knowing that hurts.
    
    Sometimes getting another pet can really help.  The child will
    concentrate his emotions on the new cat, hopefully helping him to
    forget the loss of the other cat.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    I agree with .11 and would only add... keep Steven busy/occupied to get
    his mind off the cat... and "sound him out" so you know if he'd like,
    is ready for a new pet... he may be afraid the "new" pet will go "walk
    abouts" for a little while.
    
    Another thought... we had a cat that dissapeared for 2-3 weeks when we
    lived a a very rural area... He finally came home in a sad state
    (fights with foxes or other such small forest animals..?)  At first we
    thought he may have just found a "mate", which could have explained his
    loss of interest in us...  If you are in such an evironment, you may
    want to wait a little more (how long ago did the cat disappear ?)
    
    Good luck - Diana
    
    

    re: .13
    
    Well, my three year old daughter wants cold, hard facts. 
    
    We were feeding the rabbit and on the way back into the house stumbled
    across a dead squirrel in the path. I explained that the squirrel was
    dead and she helped me dig the hole to bury it. Then the questions
    started: How did the squirrel die? (Fell out of a tree?? How do _I_
    know???) Why did he fall out of the tree?  How will he get out of the
    hole?  Can Mommy look at him?  (Sure !!)  What happened to his head?
    Why were the ants on him?  On and on and on.
    
    Frankly, if I had been able to use the "farm in Maine" line, I might
    have.  But then, I would have had to thoroughly described the farm, the
    farmer, his wife and the dog house.  
    
    All this is from a child, when told the Sandman was coming, demanded
    that her window be closed because she wasn't having anyone put sand in
    _her_ eyes.  
    
    Mike 

    We just had to put a cat to sleep at our house.  We found him in the
    woods all beaten up (looked like he got hit by a car) so Alex (3 yrs
    old) and I brought him home, patched him up together and called the
    vet.  This was a Friday afternoon.  Put the cat on antibodics and
    cleaned him up.
    
    Tuesday morning, my husband brought cat to vet with Alex and they ran a
    blood test on it and it had feline luke, which is a killer of lots of
    cats.  So, off to the vet again to put it to sleep.
    
    Alex wanted to know why the cat was put to sleep.  My husband explained
    that it was sick and that it would eventually die.  We tryed not to use
    the word "sleep" instead we used the word 'it died'.
    
    He understood every word that night.  And in his prayers that night
    he prayed that the cat went to heaven!  And that was the last
    word on it from Alex.
    
    As a previous noter said "They want the cold, hard facts".  

    I need to reopen this topic, because of an incident yesterday.
    
    My sister inlaw has a small "toy" type dog about 10 years old.  We were
    over there to do their annual Christmas photos.  She insisted the dog
    be included in some of the photos because it is scheduled to be put
    down tomorrow (Tuesday).  She's having this done because the dog is
    peeing everywhere in the house, and has ruined some new rugs. She has
    had it to the vet, and treated for an UTI but nothing has worked.  Her
    children (4-1/2 and 6-1/2) have accepted initially that the dog will be
    put to sleep, they understand this means death, because it pees, and
    occationally poops in the house, and may be doing this because it feels
    pain and this is better than "having a boo-boo".
    
    My concerns are of AJ, he does understand the dog will be no longer
    alive come Tuesday, but we have concerns of him.  We're afraid that AJ
    may equate that if he has either pee or poop accidents that we may do
    the same to him.  Bizare as this sounds, it's really scaring us.  We
    don't want him to think that if he messes his big boy pants that we'll
    be destroying him.
    
    Any thoughts or suggestions on how to approach this?
    
    Lyn

    Oh, good grief ... as I was reading your note, I saw the logical
    connection before you made it ...
    
    It should have been made clear that there is far more than just the
    fact the dog is messing around the house that it is being killed.
    i.e. the dog is very sick and will likely die soon anyway.  That
    the accidents around the house were only one symptom of the fact that
    the dog was sick.
    
    And regretably it leaves you in a position to clear up the mess this
    is likely to leave for AJ.
    
    This was not an appropriate way of describing why the dog was to be
    put down ... the damage control will be possibly be tough.
    
    Stuart

    There is no particular reason to explain how the animal died.  When our
    cat had to be "put to sleep" we made sure that our then 4 year old
    understood that the cat was sick and in a lot of pain. We took it to
    the vet and WE made a decision  the cat would not be able to come
    home again.  Don't sugar coat but give them what they can understand at
    the time.  As my son got older we have discussed the issue with more
    detail so that he got discussions appropriate for his age.
    

    Emphasize the advanced age of the dog, and that its dysfunction is
    happening because its systems are wearing out, are painful and can't 
    be fixed.  Contrast this with AJ's *increasing* control and mastery of
    his bodily functions.
    
    I agree that it was a very unfortunate way of explaining this dog's
    death.  Best of luck with this.
    
    Leslie

    This isn't specifically to do with pets, but it is to do with death.
    We have some outdoor flower pots on our deck.  This past summer, Marc
    and his grandma went shopping to buy flowers to fill them with.  This
    must have made a big impression on him because he keeps telling me 
    (5 months later) how Grandma Charlotte and Marc got the flowers.  Well,
    the flowers were annuals so last weekend we pulled them up and threw them
    out.  When Marc asked me where the flowers were I said that the flowers
    died and we had to throw them out.  I added that next year we would get
    new flowers.
    
    Now I'm wondering if that was the right thing to say.  I don't want him
    to think that when something dies, you throw it out.  And I certainly
    don't want him to think that if some(one) dies, you can get a new one.
    
    Fortunately, we haven't had to explain death to him yet, but I've got a
    lot of great aunts/uncles over 80, so I'm just thinking ahead.

    Deb, how old is Marc?
    
    How about this approach, since I agree the word dead is a little severe
    for plants.  I grew up with the approach that when plants were done
    flowering, they "went to sleep for the winter" and made new seeds that 
    were planted in the spring, to produce more beautiful flowers.  We had 
    tons of Hollyhocks, which if I recall correctly, produce their own seeds.
    
    Would this work for you, in the sense that next spring you will plant
    new seeds to make more flowers.  Well that may trigger a discussion
    about the birds and bees :-)  !!
    

    Marc just turned 2.  Going to sleep for the winter is a nice idea,
    especially for trees and plants that will come back in the spring.
    However, in this case, he watched up digging up the flowers and
    throwing them out.  I think if he asks again the next time he sees the
    empty planters, I'll just say that the flowers were no good anymore.  I
    think I'll limit my use of the words alive/dead to people and animals. 
    Come to think of it, I didn't even explain what it meant for flowers to
    die, so I doubt he understand what I said.

I wonder if maybe flowers aren't a relatively good thing to use to teach
the concept of death.  Evan sure doesn't understand death.  At 3 1/2, he
still thinks that doctors can help people who have died just as if they only
needed a bandaid to be fine again.  Perhaps if I show him the flowers and
seeds, he will start to understand death in general a little better.

        Carol

    I just thought I'd insert the current events of my question.  The dog
    still lives!  My sister inlaw called over the weekend and during the
    conversation she told one of her kids to stop teasing the dog.  Of
    course I had a few odd thoughts, but asked what had happened, hoping a
    miracle might have occured and the dog's bladder problems had cured. 
    But that wasn't the case, she said "they had all" chickened out, and
    just couldn't do it on the day of the vet's appointment.  She's now
    saying maybe one day this week, and I just wish I didn't have to know
    any of this.
    
    Kind of odd how children react.  AJ reacts very sympthetically to an
    animal which has been either put down, or if he sees one on the road,
    such as racoon, possum etc, but is very matter-of-fact when one of our
    fish does a "belly-upper", and want's to help in the disposal process.
    
    Maybe he's got a career blooming in veterinary medicine?
    
    Lyn