Conference moira::parenting_v3

    
    My husband is a TV addict ... but I can go "days" without turning it
    on.  JA loves Sesame Street and often spends time in her Daddy's lap
    watching evening TV shows.  We'll probably allow JA to watch TV within 
    "some limits and prescreening", as long as it doesn't interfere with
    her studies, playtime and desire to pursue "other things" (library,
    friends, etc.).
    
    I think Nitendo addiction IS FAR WORSE than TV addiction!  I hope Jim/I
    can stand firm is banning Nitendo from our home.  Jim's 7 year-old
    sister's brain is totally absorbed with Nitendo!!! -- she
    thinks, sleeps, breathes, talks and LIVES with the thoughts of BEATING
    NITENDO!   I read somewhere where Nitendo has obsorbed so many kids
    "think-tanks", that they banned the word "Nitendo" and all discussions
    on Nitendo from school -- playground and classrooms!  It is plain
    shocking to add up the total hours that some kids "play and talk" Nitendo!
    A deep, serious addiction -- probably far worse than watching TV!!!
    
    My 2 cents!
    Dottie
    
    PS:  We have a pinball machine in our Rec room, HOWEVER, except for
    parties, rarely is it turned on!  So I'm not against games ... I am
    definately against game addiction!

    I think not only as parents should we heavily monitor the programs our
    children watch for their real value but we should not keep the tv on as
    backround noise. I have caught myself many times with the tv just being
    turned on and no one actually watching, despite the fact that we may be
    playing a game in the same room. It's not a member of the family!
    
    As far as a what is "quality" television - I think it is a personal choice
    based on what you want your family to be exposed to. I think there are
    times when tv is used just for entertainment (not as a means to combat
    boredom - there are a million other ways of doing that) and other times
    I like tv for its educational value. Shows like Sesame Street have
    combine both of those things for children (and adults).  Some may
    consider "Roseanne" entertaining (it is occasionally funny) but I would
    question some of the comments made to the children acting in that
    program and don't really want my chlidren hearing such comments. Things
    like "now I know why some mothers eat their young" may be funny in the
    "Roseanne" context but transfer that message to young children and you
    might not only scare a child but you've just given mothers a bad rap!!
    That's where tv creates such an impression on children. 
    
    As for Nintendo, as Dottie spoke of, it is such a mind-grabber and
    people become totally addicted to it. We'll stay away from it (probably
    until it becomes requested as a Christmas present and then we'll really
    debate it and it's uses).
    
    I think each parent can determine how much tv is to much - I'd rather
    have my son watch 10 hours a day of educational tv then 1 hour of
    meaningless tv. I still probably wouldn't let him watch that much tv
    because everyone needs social interaction, physical activity and a
    variety of interests. Combine all of this with the fact that the
    majority of advertising is aimed at children and you've got real
    trouble. Also, more obese children are created in front of the
    television then in the school cafeteria.
    
    THere is now right or wrong answer, just the use of good common sense
    for what you want your chilren to be exposed to.
    
    Andrea                                           

    With my kids, I set a time limit that varied with age and
    situation (Kat at 16 has a TV in her room and no restrictions now;
    it's never been a problem) but generally no restraints on what
    they watched during that time.  
    
    I don't see TV as inherently good or bad any more than literature,
    or life itself, is good or bad.  Sometimes it's one and sometimes
    it's the other.  Most often it's what you do with it -- whether
    you just swallow it, or whether you think about it and try to see
    how it fits into your life and what you believe.  Violence isn't
    necessarily the worst thing they'll see -- I'm far more opposed to
    the paternalistic attitude the Smurfs teach ("You get in trouble
    when you try to think for yourself.  You have to follow the rules
    set by a kind father figure who knows more than you do.") and the
    derogatory ways fathers are portrayed in other cartoons than I am
    about whether He-Man was justified in flattening the bad guy.  And
    both my kids have been MUCH more upset about things they've seen
    on supposedly wholesome nature programs than they ever were by
    violent cartoons. 
    
    I try to make sure I know what they're watching and to express my
    opinion of things I don't like.  But generally my view is that
    children have to learn how to live in the world.  They have to
    learn how to deal with the way the people around them live in the
    world.  I need to keep them safe and give them a good environment
    to grow in, but sheltering them too much and censoring their ideas
    and interests doesn't seem to me to be the way to do it.
    
    Kat used to watch MTV all the time.  Now she likes soap operas and 
    movies and Steven likes the Go-Bots.   David's too young to do
    more than pat at the pretty moving pictures.  Steven used to want
    to watch more TV than we'd let him, but lately he hasn't been
    interested -- he's more likely to want to run over to play with
    his friends.  Both kids like books and read a lot on their own;
    Steven already has a pretty good reading vocabulary (though he
    hasn't started school yet) and Kat has a straight-A average after
    two years of high school, plus being a serious dancer and a
    concerned citizen with an interest in politics and reforming the
    world around her.  
    
    So watching junk TV doesn't seem to have corrupted them any more
    than having the occasional junk dessert damaged their health while
    they were eating a basically sound diet. 
    
    --bonnie

    National Public Radio had a spot on the Fall TV shows, and the
    announcer spoke about how the guidelines have loosened considerably. 
    He mentioned that some of the newer shows in prime time need to be
    screened by parents, due to some of the language and subjects.  (He
    noted that there are some shows along the lines of "Married...with 
    Children" on the networks.)
    
    ...and we won't know who killed Laura Palmer in the first show! 
    
    Judi
    

    Not sure if this question belongs here or not but...
    
    On Saturday my sister came to visit me without her almost-10-year-old
    daughter (she was spending the weekend at her father's house) and 
    suddenly she exclaimed "Oh, God.  Jane is going to kill me.  I forgot
    to set the VCR to tape Twin Peaks for her!"  I asked why she couldn't
    watch it at her dad's house and she told me that she couldn't because
    the show is on passed Jane's bedtime.  Well, my feeling is that if a
    show is on that late at night it isn't appropriate for a child her
    age.  Now, I have never seen the show so maybe I'm over-reacting, but
    I'd like to know how you other parents think.  I've seen a lot of stuff
    on from 10 to 11 that in my opinion is fairly "racey".
    
    - Kathryn
    

    
    I caught a few glimpse of Twin Peak and I thought it was a bit
    too much for TV (not violent, but weird). But then again, 
    I don't watch network TV much so I may be out of touch! 
    However, I don't think a 10 year old can understand the story.
    
    
    Eva.

I don't necessarily think time-of-broadcast has a link with content.
For example, we get AMC and they show WONDERFUL old movies late late
at night.  I've never caught TP, so don't know about it.

re: .7  time-of-broadcast .vs. content

   Interesting.  Just giving it some brief thought, I suspect that its
   a bit like a bell curve - early evening (after the news) is more
   for family, then the later it gets, the less family-oriented its
   likely to be, then very late night it gets to the good-old movies
   that are sometimes more family than the prime-time family shows.
   At least that's what it looks like for network TV - cable tends to
   be different in my opinion.
   
   How's that for all of 2 minutes of thought and some huge
   generalizations.. :-)
   
   - Tom
   

    I agree with .8, though I don't think there's always a *strict* correlation
    between the clock and the general cussedness of content.
    
    As far as Twin Peaks goes...  I've just tuned in for the first time
    during the summer repeats and have caught 3 out of 4, I guess.  There
    are elements of satanism, at least one battered woman, mental illness,
    realistic special effects on the corpses.  Individual 10-year-olds may
    be able to handle one, some, or all of the above, but I would be very
    uneasy about allowing a pre- or young-teen watch it unaccompanied.
    
    Then again, the good thing about a tape is being able to zip through the 
    gross stuff, and/or pause it to discuss the action, replay it to watch 
    the reaction of each character in the scene, etc.
    
    Leslie 

re: times vs. adult-nature of shows

Don't forget about us here in the CENTRAL time zone.  Your eastern 22:00 stuff
comes on here at 21:00, etc.  The folks in the PACIFIC and MOUNTAIN time zone
usually get their stuff tape-delayed so they aren't watching the 23:00 Network
News at 20:00.

Bob

    Well, I guess I shouldn't judge a show just because of the time it's
    on, but from a few replies back leads me to believe that this isn't
    an appropriate show for my niece who has trouble sleeping at night.
    I wonder why my sister says, "Gee...  I wonder what could be keeping
    her up at night?"  Duuuhh...   At any rate, I think the other thing
    that bothered me about the discussion I had with my sister was that
    she said "Jane will kill me if I forget..."  I mean, come on, who's
    the grown-up here?  I just think that my sister lets her child
    manipulate her and maybe that's why I might have jumped on her about
    letting her kid watch Twin Peaks.  Jane thinks of herself as too much
    of an adult and wants to grow up too fast and I think a lot of the
    stuff on TV nowadays encourages kids to do just that.
    
    - Kathryn
    

This issue has been worrying me too lately. My ex-husband is a serious TV
addict, and when our 6 yr old son is with him (50%/time) I suspect that he 
sees a lot of television. Jeff's after-school sitter, and his (paternal) aunt 
and grandmother who sometimes watch him, are also people whose TVs are on 
constantly - morning, noon and night - whether they are watching them or not!

His Dad has the Disney channel, and monitors what Jeff watches, but I'm
not sure the other folks do. I suspect he's seeing lots of cartoons and lots 
of commercials, because he often quotes them to me. I dislike TV and don't 
watch it all, although we do check movies out of the library and watch them
a few times a week (Faerie Tale theatre, Disney, old musicals). 

Last week when I picked Jeff up at his sitter's, her daughter (who has a 6
month old son) asked me if Jeff had hearing problems, because she had been
unable to engage him in conversation. I was shocked because I don't have any
trouble being heard by Jeff, nor have his teacher's indicated anything wrong in
that department! After some discussion and thinking, it occurred to me that she
had been trying to talk with him while they were watching "Teenage Mutant Ninja
Turtles"! So I explained that some of us just aren't capable of carrying on a
conversation AND watching TV simultaneously (especially an engrossing program
like the aformentioned :-)! I for one cannot do it at all. 

I want to broach the subject of excess/unmonitored TV with my sitter but I 
don't know how to do so tactfully since our basic views on it are poles
apart. I am very happy with this woman's work. She's been his caretaker
all his life and they love each other deeply. I don't want to remove him from
her care, at least not now, although his dad and I are considering putting him
in the local after-school program next year because they seem to offer some fun
things for kids. 

Up til now I've thought that home-care and unstructured time would be better
for him, and that he was getting just that. But lately he quotes TV so much
that I worry that he is being parked in front of it all afternoon! I know that
wasn't the case when she watched him all day. Am I being paranoid? Do other
people's kids sing commercial jingles? I mean - do they memorize these things
after one or 2 "hearings" or does it take hundreds? Any suggestions out there
on how to handle this matter with my sitter gracefully, without letting my
decidely anti-TV opinions get me in trouble? She's pretty sensitive to anything
resembling criticism so I have to word my questions/requests carefully. And I'd
feel like an idiot if he's only watching 1 selected program a day at her house 
and getting all the rest (aka overexposure in my opinion) at his dad's!

Also, and this is an even tougher one, any ideas on how to talk to my ex about
my concerns?

	Sue

.12

Sue,

I don't know about other peoples' kids and my own is to young to sing anything,
but when I was a kid I usually ended up with the jingles of most amusing
commercial memorized after about a week.  Remember that Jeff is probably
watching the same shows every day and these will have commercials for the
same products (usually the same commericials) every day.  So it doesn't take
long to see a particular commercial a large number of times.  It also does
not necessarily imply that Jeff is sitting in front of the TV all day.

However, if you have some objection to constant bombardment by TV (which I
don't find surpising in the least) then you should raise that objection,
AS TACTFULLY AS POSSIBLE.  Possibly suggesting certain limitations on which
programs or a total time per day in the same room with a turned on TV.

Dick

A couple of comments.  First of all, commercial jingles are _made_ to be 
"catchy".  Our son doesn't watch a lot of TV, but he goes through phases of 
humming commercial jingles.  A lot of time he gets to watch a half hour or so 
of the Celtics, Bruins, etc., so he has a lot of the beer commercials 
memorized. 

Second, Disney Channel has no commercials.  IMO, aside from what they show, 
that's the nice thing about Disney.  

The TV aside, I think that 6 was about the age that both daycare centers and 
home daycare stopped "working" for us.  Prior to that daycare had been more or
less a positive experience for our children.  The switch to the "extended day" 
program was a good one.  

Clay

    My thoughts on .12 -
    
    In general, I share the semi-rabid anti-TV bias.  I grew up without
    television, and now rarely watch commercial programs, and don't get
    cable.  My kids have pretty much grown up on an hour a day maximum  of
    Children's Television Workshop fare (Seseme Street, graduating to
    Reading Rainbow, 3-2-1 Contact, etc., wonderful stuff), and are the
    better for it.  However, I also know people who grew up without learning
    that TVs can be turned off, yet weren't totally reduced to
    mush-for-brains.  I must also now actively exercise my tolerances, as
    half the boys' time is now in a household that relies on TV quite a lot
    more than mine.
    
    There are, at minimum, two important lessons you can get across without
    regard to the other environments.  First, that neither continuation nor
    enjoyment of life require that the TV be on (which you are doubtless
    already demonstrating by example).  Second, that TV commercials (and
    much commercial programming) are manipulative nonsense.  I think you
    can impart that just by watching some together and talking about it. 
    Don't try to turn your kid into an anti-TV fanatic; just into a person
    who knows that - at least sometimes - a good book is better than a
    sit-com,  and that profit is revered above truth on Madison Avenue.
    
    As to your son's other environments, remember first that they are
    unlikely to ruin him.  Second, realize they may be less pernicious than
    you imagine.  I know that my kids sometimes picked up themes,
    characters, even songs from shows (or commercials) they had never even
    seen, just by hearing (about) them from other kids at school or daycare.
    And watching Saturday morning cartoons (at least sometimes) over the
    last year hasn't wrecked them yet.
    
    On the other hand, I don't mean you shouldn't be concerned.  You have
    every right in the world to know how your son spends his time at his
    sitter's, and shouldn't hesitate to ask.  Trying to change what happens
    there is a quite separate matter, which you should leave until you have
    more information.  Changing daycare to get away from TV is certainly
    legitimate; I did it at age 2 with my kids.  If, as you fear, there is
    considerable TV there, then it certainly isn't an "unstructured"
    environment; its is being strongly structured by the television.  An
    extended day program would probably be a lot more beneficial.
    
    As to how to discuss this with your ex, that's really a question about
    your relation with him, not about television per se.  But surely it is
    worth the effort.  Managing a semi-civil exchange of information about
    attitudes and actual household practices will be helpful, even if
    neither of you changes what goes on at your end.  In any case, it
    sounds as if you two are closer together on this issue than many
    parents would be.  Some constructive interaction on this topic (managed
    as best you can), whatever comes of it immediately, could help you when
    other differences in values and beliefs concerning your child arise in
    the future, as they doubtless will.  Perhaps some initial assistance
    from a neutral mediator would help with this, if you can't manage it
    by yourselves.  Both of you plus the kid have everything to gain.
    
    		- Bruce

    My 3yr olds loves Disney Classic movies (Dumbo, Little Mermaid,
    Lady and Tramp, Bambee, etc.).  He also loves
    Seasame Street video tapes.  Although I love these movies and
    tapes myself, I try to limit his video tape time to 1 hour per day.
    However, since Sept., he is no longer at daycare center full-time.
    He is home Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.  Since then, I
    notice an increase of the time he spends on these movies and tapes.  
    Yesterday, his daycare center is closed, he spent all morning
    watching Lady and Tramp and Peter Pam.  My nanny couldn't
    get him to do anything else.
    
    I don't know what to do now.  I have asked my nanny to limit
    his video tape time.  But as soon as he gave a tantrum, my nanny will
    give up.  My current solution is no video tapes during the day.  Only
    at night, when I am home, he can watch a movie.
    
    By the way, he watches half hour Seasame Street every morning
    and afternoon.  Therefore, I think he spends average 2 hours on
    TV per day.
    
    I want to find out how other parents handle this type of situation.
    Eric doesn't watch any TV cartoons, only Disney cartoons.
    What's the adequate TV time for a 3yr old?
    
    Thanks, Wendy
    
    

    
    
      Matthew also loves videos of all kinds and has Dumbo,PeterPan,LIttle
      Mermaid,Robin Hood, etc.....  He is at daycare all day and doesn't 
      watch many tapes.  However, when he is at home, we allow him to 
      watch whenever he feels he wants to see one, unless he is being 
      naughty.  I find them very educational (Matthew will be 3 in 
      February).  I sometimes feel guilty that I have to "plug him into
      a tape", but that is often the only way of preventing him from
      wrecking the house or doing destructive things with his toys, etc.
      The tapes tend to calm him down and cause him to focus attention
      more than his normal play activities.  I grew up watching alot
      of tv myself and was not really limited as far as time goes. If
      I was bored or had something better to do, I would do it.  I find
      that Matthew also becomes bored with the tapes and decides on his
      own that he wants to play with Lego's or have Mommy and Daddy play
      with him.
    

Wendy, 

     I assume that the reason that your current system (no TV at
all until you get home) works, but he throws a tantrum when your
nanny tries to cut him off is that if he plays OK if not allowed
to watch TV, but objects strenuously if he's watching but has to
stop.
     If that's the case, it seems to me that your current system
is just fine.  Unless you expect your nanny to do an unusual amount
of housework, it's reasonable to expect your nanny to keep your son
entertained and busy without the aid of the TV.
     I don't know the answer to your questions about "how much TV
is enough", since TV is not a problem with us.  But I can say that
there was a time that they would watch the same tape over and over
again, and they grew out of it.
     You might also want to look over note 625, which deals with a
slighlty different issue, but one that seems relevant to you -- the 
problem of getting a fixation to the TV when it is on.

     Clay (who saw "Lady and the Tramp" approximately 3,617 times)
  

Juli (25 months) just loves Jungle Book.  She carries around her Jungle Book
book.  She points out the many characters, will call any tiger she sees
"Sheer-Kan" and apes "Uncle Louie" (I know, "King" Louie!, Juli says "uncle").
She can even explain some of the "happenings".   More often than not, we
find the Jungle Book under her bed covers or pillow! ... and she walks around
the house mimicking King Louie.

On average, Juli watches the video 4-5 nights a week, anywhere from
20 to 40 minutes (and on rare occasions the duration: 90 minutes).

I don't object!  Why?  Because she gets pleasure from it and it gives Jim/I
an opportunity to enjoy some "controllable, fun" time with Juli.  It is
fun "family time"  (we pop some popcorn and line up drinks and snuggle
on the coach).  It is also quite effective in de-winding Juli and setting
the stage for bedtime.

If we weren't enjoying Jungle Book (and occasionally one of the other
Classics), Juli would be racing through the house, Daddy would be doing
repairs or reading the paper ... and Mommy would probably be doing some
domestics or burning up the telephone lines!

I also have no objections to Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, the Discovery Channel
(and the like) ... not that we watch a LOT of TV!, but there are some excellent
TV programming these days!  (and some bad, too! -- like that Dinosaur Family
show ... now that is violent and SICK!)

My two cents,
Dottie

    Thanks for all the replies.  I just want to explain that
    I have no problems with Disney Classics and Seasame Street
    videos.  I love to watch these videos myself.  I just
    don't want Eric spending all day watching and he throws
    a tantrum when my nanny tries to cut him off.
    
    Wendy

    
    Hi Wendy.  I have/had a similar scenario at my house.  I have
    3 little boys now and they all, including the 18 month old
    adore Disney classic movies.  Like others have stated, the
    "addiction" to a particular tape usually wears itself out after
    a time (we went 3 months straight with Mary Poppins - that about
    did me in!).
    
    I also have a nanny and she, too, has had difficulty distracting
    the kids from the T.V. or enforcing my rules regarding video watching.
    
    What I do is tell the kids, "OK, you can watch Robin Hood, but only
    part of it...then I want you outside."  I let them negotiate WHERE in
    the tape they would like to stop.   If it's 5 minutes from the end,
    I ask for another suggestion, letting them feel as if they have a
    say in the decision, but making it clear that we are going to com-
    promise and get both some video time in and some exercise or play-
    time in.   Once I can get them outside, they are easily distracted
    and involved in other play and rarely return to wanting the video
    until late in the day, before dinner.  If the nanny says 10 more
    minutes, 5 more minutes, then Eric might be less likely to throw
    a tantrum because he KNOWS it's coming.  Also, he might be doing
    this because it's a power issue between him and the nanny (we've
    had that where the attitude of "you're not my Mom" has taken hold).
    Then, it's time to sit down with nanny and children and explain that
    the nanny is the boss when you're not there.
    
    Maybe you should set a schedule, whereby they know that they watch
    Sesame Street in the a.m. before getting dressed and then, before
    you come home, they can watch 30 minutes of a video.  If you want
    them to continue watching after you get home so you can wind down,
    then they can continue.
    
    We have both "long" videos and "short videos", long=more than 30
    minutes and short = less than 30 minutes.  I sometimes tell them they
    can have a "short" video only and that way I'm guaranteed that it'll
    only be 30 minutes in front of the T.V.
    
    Sorry to be so long winded.  Hope this helps.
    
    -Dorothy
    
    If it's somewhat scheduled and regular the children might handle it
    better, as will the nanny.  

    In defense of Dinosaurs - 
    
    Like The Simpsons, I don't consider this appropriate viewing for
    youngsters.  But for adults, Dinosaurs is a RIOT!  Don't miss this one
    (after the youngsters are in bed).
    
    Laura

    I know there's going to be someone who disagrees with me but....
    
    AJ like dinasaurs as much as we do.  We desperately try to have him in
    bed, more important Asleep by the time it comes on, but unfortunately
    the last three weeks we have had a sitter on Wednesday nights, and he's
    managed to con the sitter into letting him stay up and watch it. 
    Tonight I'm going to be home, while dad's in school and guess what
    mom's plan is?  AJ WILL be in bed asleep before the program comes on!
    
    My husband's thinks the program is a dinasaur/modern version of the
    Jackie Gleason Honeymooner's series.  Does anyone know if this is fact?
    
    I really like them!!
    Lyn

    Lyn, I agree with your hubby!  Alex and I watch it (when we remember
    which night/channel it's on...) and I haven't found anything
    objectionable.  Puerile slapstick, yes--but I don't find that
    objectionable!  We've had serious discussions about "Hurling Day" <:-D
    but other than that, we both find it witty, incongruous and technically
    brilliant.
    
    Leslie
    
    P.S.  I have, however, been victim of sneak pillow attacks (see my
          title)!

    Forgot to mention, that something must've gotten lost in the episode
    last season where the youngerser was on dad's shoulders hitting him on
    the head yelling "not the momma", AJ refers to the program as
    "knock-the-momma".  I've egged him on a couple time, I admit, while
    sitting on dad's shoulders at events, he takes off dad's cap and
    lightly hit dad on the head while announcing "knock the momma"!!
    
    I've missed all the episodes so far this season, can't wait for
    tonight.
    
    Lyn

If there's something that I really want to watch, uninterrupted, 
particularly if it's something that I'd prefer my children not seeing, I 
record it and watch it later. 

Clay