Conference moira::parenting_v3

    RE: .0
    
    You mention that you recently moved and that the behavior described
    also is relatively recent.  Could it be that this behavior is a result
    of the breakup?  Children of that age have few outlets for frustration
    and resentment.  Defiance is usually the first sign.  I would suggest
    that you seek family counciling or at least speak with the family
    doctor about the situation.  It would appear that the child is attached
    to the daycare provider since he/she and the environment there has not
    changed.
    
    Dan

    My bet is that she isn't as defiant at daycare because it's the one
    place where things have not changed recently.  Her behavior is probably
    perfectly "normal" given the stressful changes you all are going
    through. Definitely talk to a counselor (EAP would be a good start).
    Also if you can get it through your library, Mr. Rogers (Fred) has
    written some good stuff for parents going through divorce.
    
    best of luck,
    

    Thanks for the comments....I have been thinking the wise step would be
    counselling...
    As a result of the divorce, we relocated to a new town and the kids
    are in a new daycare as well, that was what I couldn't understand.  The
    only comments I receive from daycare is that Katie knows what she
    wants, and sticks by it, but they have not had any disciplinary
    problems.
    
    Marcia

In the case of our daughter, the age of three was far worse than either two or 
four.  She did get a baby brother in that time period, but things were 
otherwise stable.  I have talked to other people who have experienced the same 
thing.  So it's possible that some of the behavior normally associated with 
two or four are showing up now -- after all we have said time and time again 
that children develop differently.

So, yes it's possible that it's a phase, perhaps enhanced by all the changes.  
Seems to me that some counseling is in order, though, to make sure.

Also, it's VERY common for a child to act differently in day care than with 
parents and family.  Strange to say, but often it seems that they reserve the 
bad behavior for situations that they feel "safe" in.  There were many times 
that I would get glowing reports of behavior at daycare and think:

	Are we talking about the same child?

	Oh, oh, s/he has saved up a whole day's worth of frustration
	and is about to take them all out on me.

Clay

    I second Clay's remarks.  Being "good" at daycare and "bad" with family
    is the normal pattern.  Also, negativism and stubborness tend to wax
    and wane somewhat unpredictably from 1.5 to 4 or more.  It is probably
    a normal phase, which may or may not be a bit reinforced by changing
    family circumstances.
    
    I would avoid the label "defiance," though, as it suggests deliberate,
    willful misbehavior.  I doubt this is the case.  Kids this age haven't
    developed mature ways of dealing with a need for independence, or of
    controlling and expressing frustration and anger.  They need help in
    developing self control, rather than punishment for not having achieved
    it.  
    
    I would not assume that counselling is needed, unless the behavior
    really worries you, or you don't know how to cope with it.  But if in
    doubt, try it out.
    
    		- bruce

    I just read an article in this months Parenting magazine, that talked
    about a number of different "difficult" behavior patterns that children
    in the 2-5 year age group go through.  
    
    There was an example similiar to yours in that article.  The way
    that the child physchiatrist described it (made sense to me), was
    that at that age, 2-4, a child is begining to realize that he/she
    can empower themselves with certain "powers".  They are striving
    toward becoming independent individuals, and these new feelings
    can be quite confusing and slightly stressful to them.  Since they
    are limited to the ways in which they can handle confusion and stress,
    one of their venting methods is the "NO" syndrome.  For them, this
    is a powerful word, and they have truly learned it's meaning.
    
    I agree with the replier that said counceling does not seem warranted
    unless the behavior becomes extreme, i.e. hitting, screaming, tantrums,
    however, I would let Katie know that at times, "NO" is not acceptable,
    and explain why. 
    
    This may not work with all children, but when my brother was at
    about that age, he was really pushing the "I'm independent" button,
    and nothing that represented authority phased him in the least.
    Spankings, lectures and taking away favorite things had no affect.
    The only thing that worked and it was tried in desperation, was
    telling him that when he behavied in a certain way, he hurt mommy
    and daddy's feelings.  That did the trick.  He soon learned what
    independent behavior was acceptable and what was not.
    
    Good luck, keep in mind "that this too shall pass".
    
    Cynthia              
    
     

    RE: .-1
    
    I agree that children of the age 2-4 exhibit "difficult" behavior
    patterns while asserting their new found control.  My main point
    however, was that this behavior appeared to be triggered by the change
    in the family (divorce).  I would be concerned because of this timing. 
    In my opinion, I would much rather spend a little time and money with a
    qualified professional now to ensure that there was no major problem. 
    If a problem is found, work toward a solution.  If there is no problem
    and the behavior is determined to be essentially "normal" for the age
    group, then no harm has been done.  Perhaps a little ease of mind has
    occurred and you (the parent) are more comfortable with the situation.
    
    Dan

    OK, so can someone out there help me define "normal"?  My son is 3-1/2
    and is getting so bad there are days when I take pity on my day-care
    provider.  I have seriously had his hearing tested twice, thinking he
    wasn't hearing me; he was, he was tuning us out.  He is less than
    semi-potty trained.  He problem seems to be not wanting to be out of
    the action long enough to "go", and as we speak I am still waiting for the
    last 3+months for an appointment at Umass Medical Center, A.D.D. clinic.
    No amount of yelling, spanking and time-outs in his room works, I am
    quick to admit to being jelous of the ones who will sit quietly and
    just occupy themselves, and at times embarassed to take him anywhere I
    can't control him, even have stayed home from places because he runs
    off.
    
    We are a fairly stable, two parent working family, and he's our only
    child.  The sitter says he literally runs circles around the others
    when she reads a story, and was the first to point out that she thought
    we had a problem.  Besides how many kid do you know who are asked *not*
    to come back to church school nursery?
    
    Is this abnormal, or are the parents the ones needing help?
    

    I agree wholeheartedly with .4, .5, and .6.  My daughter is quickly
    approaching the age of 4 and this third year has been the toughest. 
    The "terrible twos" was a breeze compared to the "trying threes".  I
    can hardly wait to see what the "frantic fours" bring.
    
    As far as the counseling is concerned, trust your gut feeling.  It
    wouldn't hurt...may help your children understand how to cope with the
    new adjustments they will have make.
    
    I can really empathize with your situation.  I wish you peace.
    
    Susie
    

I wish to share in this conference because I have the same kinds of problems.
I have a three year old and a 4 and a half year old (both girls).

During a checkup appointment, the pediatrician asked me, Do you have any boys?
and I said "No".  He said, well you don't need any, this girl is just as 
active!

I would say the four year old is coming out of the terrible "whatevers" and the
three year old is right smack in the worst of it.  Sometimes I swear my children
are manic depressive.  They can spend hours screaming at me, and then can be the
sweetest kids.

One thought that makes me feel better is that I believe my children will stand
up to their beliefs when they grow older, and won't let people swing them 
around.  So, I expect they will do the same to me.

Try taking something away that the child REALLY likes.  For me it has been:
If you don't get down from there, I will not read tonight, for example.

Also try: I am getting really sad, and might have to go talk to
the 3 year old neighbor (invent one) who really likes to talk with me without
screaming.  This has worked for me.

I believe some people will have these phases into adulthood, so I am prepared
for these to happen at any age.

>During a checkup appointment, the pediatrician asked me, Do you have any boys?
>and I said "No".  He said, well you don't need any, this girl is just as 
>active!
    
    In my own kids (1 girl, 2 boys) and my 4 nieces and 2 nephews, I 
    haven't noticed any gender-based differences in activity or
    defiance levels at this age.  In fact, the prizes so far go to my
    sister-in-law's eldest daughter and my own daughter . . . my
    brother's son being the quietest. 
    
    I mention this only because I've seen one of my friends go
    nonlinear when her cute little girl in her pink lace-trimmed
    sweatsuit started screaming no, no, no at the top of her lungs in
    the middle of the grocery store when her mother wouldn't let her
    climb out of the front of the cart while the cart was moving.  She
    said in bewilderment, "I thought only boys acted like this!" and
    was wondering what she'd done wrong and whether the girl needed to
    see a doctor.
    
    So those of you dreading the two's and three's because you've got
    an active 18-month-old boy who likes to climb higher than is safe,
    and those of you saying, "I won't need to worry about this much
    because I've got a quiet little girl" -- it won't necessarily be
    that way.  
    
    --bonnie

Re .10

just so you know ... manic depressives don't change mood every few hours ...
it occurs over many days!  There's a lot of strange information out there
about these mental illnesses ... and just passing on that kind of idea
even if in jest leads people to the wrong ideas about them.

Stuart

    My son is now 5. I still say three and a half to four was by far the
    worst stage ever. It ended almost exactly on his 4th birthday.
    
    G