Conference moira::parenting_v3

    And gee, I thought I had the only kid who likes the pet's (cat in
    our case) food better than his own.  More than several times I have
    caught Joshua with a mouthful of Happy Cat.  At first I worried
    but then I figured, What the h*ll, it doesn't kill the cat so a
    few bites won't hurt Josh.  If he starts to meow or rub himself
    on my leg then I will remove the cat's food!! ;-)  The way I see
    it, the cat has to contend with enough without having her food taken
    away, too.  Just wait, Josh's latest is trying to lap up the water
    out of the cat's bowl!!  The carpet is still drying from his latest
    attempt two days ago.  I watch him and know that if he's quiet for
    a few minutes he's probably into something he shouldn't be.  His
    daddy caught him trying to follow the cat into her covered cat box
    last night.  I think it's just plain a facsination with anything
    to do with "KEY" (kitty to you and me).
    
    Bear with JA, if you can stand the dog food breath--just watch for
    barking or tail wagging!
    
    Pam
    

    My friend and I ate a whole box of dog biscuits when we were little
    (you know the kind shaped like mailmen etc..). Didn't harm us at
    all. 
    I have also caught my 18 month old son with a mouthfull of cat food.
    He has gotten over the fascination now (we keep the kitty's food
    in the powder room so we can shut the door and keep the baby out).
                                                                
    Try feeding th cat on the counter or a table.

> And gee, I thought I had the only kid who likes the pet's (cat in
>    our case) food better than his own.  More than several times I have
>    caught Joshua with a mouthful of Happy Cat.  At first I worried
>    but then I figured, What the h*ll, it doesn't kill the cat so a
>    few bites won't hurt Josh.  If he starts to meow or rub himself
>    on my leg then I will remove the cat's food!! ;-) 

	Katie is partial to Science Diet herself.  It drives her Daddy crazy!
I'd rather she didn't, but, as you say, I figure it won't kill her, so I 
reprimand but don't have a major fit.  And oh by the way, Katie *does* rub 
against the legs of and bump her head against anyone she likes just like the 
cats do, but I attribute that more to the fact that she has 7 feline sibling 
role models than her diet. :-)

	Didn't a lot of parents used to use dog bones as teething biscuits?
How about it?  Anyone want to own up to having teethed on Milk Bones? ;-)
(My parents always had cats not dogs, so I don't think I did.)

Tracey

    I'd say the only problem is if she starts barking.
    

    
    Just a nit - pet foods are not prepared in the cleaniest environment.
    Pet foods also contain animal-by-products that may not be suitable
    for human consumption. I.e. farms sell off their sick and injured
    animals to pet food manufacturers. I would definitely find ways to
    stop the behavior.
    
    
    Eva.

    Given a choice, I think I'd rather eat dog crunchies than
    Cheerioes, too . . .
    
    --bonnie

    Matt prefers Meow Mix.  I think he thinks they are Cheerios. 
    Fortunately the eating cat food stage didn't last long. I too figured
    it didn't kill the cat so why worry. I was far more concerned about the
    floor environment and mucking around in the cat area than the food
    itself.  He now does prefer Cheerios.   Jeff

	I'm not advocating feeding the kids Dogfood/catfood as a mainstay 
of their diet, just saying don't panic if they do. As my great grandmother
always said, "You gotta eat a peck 'o dirt before you die."  I've seen 
worse go into kids' mouths and they have survived.

	Also, I must disagree with you as to the contents of pet food. Old 
and injured animals may be sold for pet food, but so what?  Neither is catching.
Sick animals are not used in animal food any more than they are used in people 
food.  (Not only that, but I don't think that there are any animal by-products 
in Science Diet.  I believe it gets its protein content from cereals. I'll
check tonight and eat my words (but not my catfood) publicly if I'm mistaken. 
:-)  )  In addition to that, Science Diet is made by Hill's Laboratories that 
makes prescription foods for animals with special needs and I'd be willing to 
bet that they are cleaner than, say, many restraunts that we take our kids to.

	All in all, I'd say kids are in more danger from putting their hands 
in their mouths after crawling on the floor than they are from the occasional
piece of cat or dog food.

Tracey

	Little known fun fact:  Did you realize that the average dog has fewer 
germs in its mouth than the average person?

	(But I'd still rather not kiss one. :-)) 

    re:.9 (Tracey)
    
    I agree with you.  I also feed my cats Science Diet and I know that
    there *is* a very high cereal content.  There may be some animal
    by-products, but definately not from sick animals.  And it's not
    just Science Diet - it's all pet foods.  A cat or dog or whatever
    could get just as sick as a child from eating food made from sick
    animals.  Don't think for one minute that pet food companies could
    get away with it.
    
    Re: Dottie
    
    I've *got* to meet JA!
    
    - Kathryn
    

    
    re.9 .10
    
    Well, over the years, my cats have stomached so many things and
    still stay visibily healthy that I wouldn't use them as judges
    for cleaniness and quality of pet foods! Animals do build up 
    immunities against germs when they are exposed to them on a
    regular basis, so do people. 
    
    I am not saying that the kid is going to get sick on a couple
    pieces of dog chow. I'm just pointing out that pet foods may
    not meet certain health requirements.
    
    Eva. 
    
    

    I used to get into the dogfood.  It was always the dry food and I can't
    remember any ill effects.  Although come to think of it, in absence of
    a porcelain facility, I have been known to visit a tree from time to
    time. :')  I am also a car enthusiest, so I have been known to chase a
    few cars (only vintage models to see if they were for sale):')  And
    maybe that's why I'm losing my hair, I must be shedding.  Hmmmmmm,
    There might be something to this pet food as it relates to behavior
    theory.  Well gotta go know, it's time for my walk.
    
    
    Signed,
    
    Old Blue...........er, I mean Mike

    RE: -1  I has to have nutritional value, otherwise there would be no
    such things as pets.  They need nutrients to sustain their lives as
    well.
    
    
    
    Mike

    Since most pets get by on a single food, it is in fact formulated with
    considerable nutritional care.  Though not formulated for humans, it
    may well be better balanced than cheerios.  And I wouldn't worry about
    safety.  "Animal byproducts" are parts of animals considered great
    delicacies by the French and Chinese (among others), but shunned by
    many Americans.  Usually more nutricious than the parts we do eat.
    
    I did not teeth on a Milkbone, as we didn't get a dog until I was six. 
    But I ate them fairly often through elementary school.
    
    JA's food instincts are probably fine, but I'm worried about the dog. 
    What's wrong with his appetite?  My dogs always ate whatever you gave
    them right away; leave out more, and they'd turn into lead blimps. 
    Same with my recent cats (though many cats will self-regulate).
    
    		- Bruce
    
    p.s.  Science Diet Feline Growth Formula is about as nutritionally rich
    as any known substance.  Even so, my ancient cat needs enough extra
    Vitamen B supplement (obtained at great expense at the local Health
    Food store) to roughly meet the daily needs of all Massachussetts
    emplyees of DEC.  My kids' needs are much more modest.

    This is a funny bunch of notes..."I teethed on Milkbones" "I didn't
    but I at them throughout elementary school", etc, etc.
    
    When I was little, maybe 7ish, my brother, sister and I ate some
    Friskies.  They were disgusting.  My mother told us that it had
    mercury in it (like the mercury in a thermometer).  We were scared
    to death, figuring we'd die any minute as we spit and spit and spit
    as much as we could into the sink.  My mother really is a very
    nice person, really...
    
    Donna
    

   One of our Customers in Australia, is Uncle Ben's Pet food. They proudly
   point out, that the legal requirements for quality etc in the manufacture
   of pet food (in australia at least) are higher than those for the
   preparation of food for human consumption.
   
   q
   

    Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.
    
    I had never really heard of a child/baby eating dog food before until
    about 2 months ago.  I read it in "Parents" Magazine.  A woman wrote
    in complaining that her toddler son was eating dog food and asked if
    it were harmful.  The column was answered by a doctor on the staff of
    Children's Hospital.  He commented that a little consumption of dog
    food is NOT harmful, but if eaten everyday, can be harmful.  He said
    that the behavior should not be allowed, you should try to keep the 
    dog food out of the childs reach.  
    
    There was also a comment made in I think .9 about dogs being clean!
    I never believed that one myself, after seeing all they do eat! 
    However, this doctor suggested very strongly to NOT let a dog lick
    your child's face or hands and not to have any saliva contact at all!
    He said that a dogs saliva carries numerous germs!  The article went
    into it quite a bit.  I can dig it up if anyone is that interested.
    
    Well, I sure am glad that I don't have any pets.  But my parents do
    and when I bring my children there, I don't let the dog get anywhere
    near my little ones and I don't let my little ones get anywhere near
    the dogs food!!!!  I guess I would rather be safe than sorry.
    
    Happy eating!
    
    Lisa
    

Evan didn't eat the dry cat food; he ate the canned food!

We were waiting until Thanksgiving to give him his first meats (age 8 months)
and the day before Thanksgiving we found him with a huge fistful of 
canned food, with the remnants from the last bite still in his mouth.
He LOVED it (and he HATED prepared baby meats).  We caught him a couple of
times munching down (and would remove him, much to his dismay).
Now (age 2 yrs) he goes around meowing and crawling on all fours, and
constantly LICKING us...wonder if there was any influence...NAH!  :-)

Gross warning...don't read the next lines if you are eating lunch:

I just keep remembering that when one of my best friends in high school 
was a toddler she ate a live snail.  Apparently thought it was rather
tasty.  I figured that if she could handle that, then Evan could handle 
cat food!

        Carol

    I've heard, too, that dogdrool has fewer germs than babydrool... but
    it's been written somewhere that a couple of those few doggy germs can
    be nasties (to humans).
    
    However... on the line which connects the two extremes "Go play in the
    traffic" and "Live in a bubble", I'm closer to the traffic end on this
    issue.  Mind you, I wouldn't _encourage_ chowing down on Chow, but
    there are bigger things to get all het up about.  If I pulled a hissy
    fit about Alex seeing how Tender the Vittles are, it might make them
    more attractive to her ("whatever you do, don't put peas up your
    nose").

    The way I understand it, and I may be wrong, dogs appendix's filter
    their food much more efficiently than the human appendix. That's why
    dogs can eat raw meat and meat that's ready to "turn" without getting
    sick. Since their food tolerance is higher, their food can be safe for
    them but not for us. Dog food has too much roughage, is not clean
    enough and is too hard for baby consumption. Great for canines though.
    
    
    Regarding dogs saliva being clean: maybe it is. How clean is the clump
    of grass he was chewing on in the yard or the mouse or the piece of
    XXXX that he finds so tasty? 
    
    Not to make serious of this light topic but....dogs often chew their 
    own feces. If ingested by a child it can cause blindness and brain
    damage.
    
    If my daughter ate Rusty's food I'd put a stop to it.
    
    Kate 
    
    

    In re: .22
    
    The appendix does not serve _ANY_ function in "filtering" food;
    indeed, food does not pass through it.  I am reasonably certain that
    dogs don't even _have_ an appendix, anyway.  I don't think the other
    concerns have much substance, either.  Dogs and kids have been licking
    and kissing each other for millenia, sharing food, and chewing on grass
    together, to their mutual benefit and pleasure.  No reason to make them
    stop now.
    
    		- Bruce

    I really don't know how dog feces could cause blindness and brain
    damage.  Some dogs eat feces others don't.  It tends to be a habit
    in a small percentage of dogs.  (Mine eats human matter when people
    are kind enough to use the woods for a toilet, and believe me it
    is *much* worse.)  Sorry for being gross.  There are a number of
    diseases that can be passed back and forth between dogs and humans,
    but if your own dog is healthy I wouldn't worry.  I wonder if the
    idea about dogs saliva being clean came from the observation that
    dogs lick their wounds to promote healing.  It has been proven that
    there is some agent in their saliva that does this.
    
    I personally would not let a child eat animal food on a regular
    basis.  There is a controversy in the dog world right now about
    a certain chemical that is used to preserve the fat in dog food,
    and some breeders feel it is causing sterility, immune disorders,
    and other nasty diseases in their dogs when fed over a period of
    time.
    	Linda

    I just had to write in again.  I just can't get over the "care-free"
    attitudes that alot of people seem to have regarding their children
    eating dog food...or being in saliva contact with their pets.  Maybe
    I'm a panicky parent (I really don't think so) but I just wouldn't
    take any risks with it.  I mean, these are our children!  Would you
    really eat this stuff yourself???  I can't even stand the smell of
    it.  Really now, how hard is it to keep the dog's food out of your
    childs reach...you have to protect them against so many other things,
    what makes this so different?
    
    I say here here to .22's argument!
    
    To each his own I guess.  You won't catch my kids eating dog food thats
    for sure!!!!
    
    I just had to get this out....sorry if I may have offended anyone.
    
    Lisa
    

    -1  Most of these people have mentioned that they rounded the
    corner into the kitchen to catch their child getting into the
    animal food.  It isn't as though they are feeding them this for
    dinner every night (or maybe just a snack inbetween).  I know,
    I know, you'd probably argue that the food should be moved 
    elsewhere, but I think what most of use feel is...it isn't a
    major tragedy if your child puts some dog/cat food in the mouth.
    They probably will not die from it.
    
    

My child picks up the most disgusting things (on the street, under our tables
at restaurants, off of her shoes, and out of nooks and crannies in my house
that I had no idea were so unclean!) all over the world, and I cannot protect
her from every one of them.  Sure I try to promote a sense of "dirty" and
"clean" with her, and will remind her that the dog food is more on the "dirty"
side if it is ever an issue.  But given a choice, I'd much rather have her
put a kernel of pet food in her mouth - or get a wet willie from the dog -
than consume most of the stuff I catch her picking up.

Lisa (.25) just remember that some parents would think it absolutely absurd
if you let your child's pacifier fall on the floor and didn't sterilize it
before giving it back!  Depending on what germs were on that floor, the risk
you take is (IMO) no greater than the risk of letting a dog lick the face.
These are OUR CHILDREN, and we have to take precautions based on what WE feel
is the level of risk involved - some parents just don't consider it a risk,
that's all.

kristen_who_now_just_dusts_off_the_pacifier_in_most_cases

    Right, Kristen, and there a bunch of standing jokes along these lines:
    
    When the baby's pacifier falls on the floor, then the . . .
    
    	New parents of 1st child will 	sterilize it for an hour
    
    	Parents of 6 month old will	wash it carefully
    
    	Parents of 1 year old will	lick it clean
    
    	Parents of 2nd child will	give it a quick shake
    
    	Parents of 3rd child will	get the dog to lick it
    
    	Parents of 4th child will	never notice
    
    This particular version is probably unfair to the dog.  In fact, it is
    neither possible nor desirable to shield our children from all germs. 
    That would just keep them from developing immunities, so that they
    would get sicker later.  Of course, we must get them innoculated
    against the more dangerous illnesses.  But any steps that significantly
    reduced their exposure to routine germs would require social isolation
    that would be unthinkable.  
    
    		- Bruce

    Re .26  quite right... we round the corner to find the kid eating the 
    pet food.. its not set out as a snack or dinner.  I have heard it
    argued that keeping a kid in a semi sterile environment can lead
    to the child ultimately being MORE susceptable to disease. I think
    there is truth to a person developing a healthy immune system as the
    result of reasonable exposure to germs.  I think the pet food scene
    falls in this category.  You wouldn't find me giving Matt pet food
    but its not a catastrophe either.  Jeff

    So where do people recommend that I put the cat (in this case) food so
    that Fluffy (not her real name!) can get to it, but Marc can't?  I
    certainly don't want her jumping up on the kitchen counter or table
    (that is a large no-no around our house).  Next to her litter in the
    basement?  Yuck - would you eat dinner in the bathroom??  Ideas??

    My son I think only once put the dog food in his mouth. I screamed
    so loud (for fear he might choke, not because I was totally grossed
    out) and he never did it again. What he did do was play in her water
    bowl. I'd come in the kitchen and find him dipping his fingers in
    her bowl and sticking them in his mouth. The dog would just be sitting
    next to him. He broke the habit himself after a few of these "lapping"
    session when he split the bowl over and found himself sitting in
    a huge puddle of water. He didn't like that feeling. 
    
    We used to let Berk scoop Alex's food into her bowl once he could
    handle the cup well enough. Alex only ate once a day so there was
    never any food in her bowl but Berk knew where the bucket of food
    was and ended up getting greater pleasure out of saying "sit" and
    giving her treats then playing with her dinner. 
    
    As for the cat, we put his food on top of the dryer, which was in
    the connecting hallway between the garage and house. We did this
    because the dog kept eating the cat's food, not my son.  
    
    Dottie, that's nice JA is such a generous little young girl. Many
    kids would never give up their Cherrios!!! Be glad she is learning
    the concept of sharing.
    
    Andrea                 

    
    RE. 30
    
    	My cats eat twice a day and we don't leave food out
    mainly because one cat is a maniac and would probably eat and eat
    until he gets sick. Another concern is *ants*. Maybe you can change
    your cat's eating habit.
    
    Eva.

    re: .30
    
    Our cats don't seem to mind having their food in the same area as
    the litter box.  It's in the downstairs bathroom, which we don't
    use much, so we can shut the door to keep David separated from cat
    supplies.
    
    --bonnie

On a related note...

We haven't reached this point yet with Michael, age 5 months, but ... what 
do you do about the ... ahem ... cat's litterbox?  A friend of ours was 
talking about her little boy eating the cat's food, and said she didn't get 
too upset about that, but when he went after the litterbox, that was more 
than she could take.  Her solution was to move the litterbox out to the 
garage, but her cat is an inside/outside cat, so she could do that.

We have a hooded litterbox, which would I suppose make it a little harder 
for a toddler to get in, but that just  makes it a challenge, right?  Our 
cat is de-clawed and therefore has never been outside the house since we 
got him.  So putting the litterbox outside isn't an option.  Shutting it up 
obviously isn't an option either, since the cat has to be able to get to 
it.  I thought of putting a "doggie door" on one of the closets, and 
putting the litterbox in there so the cat could get to it but Michael 
couldn't.  But I hate to cut a hole in a perfectly good door.

Anyone else out there come up with a solution to this one?

Steve

    Steve, 
    We had a litter box with the hood (booda box) on it as well and never
    had any problem with our son. I don't know if he even really knew what
    it was. Our litter box was in the connecting hallway between the garage
    and the house (without a door connecting to the house) and our son never 
    wandered in there. He usually went for the stairs before he got near
    the hallway. If you can put the box in an obscure corner, your son may not
    notice or never really care what it is. It took our son a while to even 
    realize that the cat went in there. We also did not clean the box in front 
    of him so who knows if he even knew the top came off. 
    
    Alot of loud "dirty" yells will probably help deter him if he does go
    after it. 
    
    Good luck. 
    Andrea 

    The fact that your cat doesn't go out is a plus as far as potential
    problems with parasites in the litter box are concerned.  I would make
    sure he stays away from it for sure.  We thought the cat food was
    dangerous!? well, the litterbox makes the cat food a high class meal
    by comparison to the litter box risks. Your litterbox in a closet 
    with a cat door is a good idea, I think, but maybe the cat won't use
    it with it set up like that?  I would screech whenever your child
    went near it... I will bet a few 

    Do you have a room that isn't really used by the child?  We have
    an extra room on the first floor - it's where the desk & computer
    live - so we just put a baby gate across the door.  Sam couldn't
    get in but the cats had no trouble jumping over the gate - only 
    about 2 feet high.  This also had the extra advantage that the 
    cats could go where no baby could follow.  If they decided they
    had had enough of Sam - or more likely visiting children that were
    not use to having cats around - the could go to their room!
    
    We found this to be an ideal solution, but you have to have the extra
    room!
    
    Kathy

You may also have a place where you can keep the litter box up high.

A couple of weeks ago we were at someone's house for dinner and they kept 
talking about the cat being in the bathroom.  I couldn't see the cat at
all, and finally I asked about it.  They took off a bar from across the
cabinet under the sink, and there was the cat!  On the side of the 
cabinet near the toilet they had a cat door for her to get in and out.
Inside the cabinet they had her litter box and her feeding dish.

They didn't have kids, but had large dogs, and this kept the dogs out
of both the box and the bowl.  Looked like a great idea to keep kids
out, too!

         Carol

    We separated our cat box from our children by using gates also.
    
    At one stage of our existance it was kind of like doing broken
    field running or low hurdles to get around my house.
    
    My husband is another dog bisquit eater. He still likes milk bone
    to this day!
    
    In re fecal material. If it carries parasites and is injested
    then the parasites could attack the eyes or brain, causing the
    injuries mentioned.
    
    However, and this is really gross so I'm putting it behind a form feed
    
    
    
    
    For those of you familiar with John Walter's movies, Pink Flamingos,
    Polyester etc...(I've only read about him and seen the one about
    the rock and roll teenage movie take off). In one of his movies
    the star 'Divine' was supposed to eat dog feces. They checked with
    a doctor and were told that while the doctor wouldn't do it himself
    it was not harmful.
    
    Personally I was grossed out by that, but it does indicate that
    the danger to children is minimal. 

    One often hears "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," and I think this
    applies here.  I had two ancient cats long before the kids came along,
    and they would never have consented to moving the litter box from its
    proper location: right near the toilet, in the bathroom (for easy of
    emptying).  The container was the only proper choice:  an unhooded,
    uncovered, plastic "baby bath" (also the only good use I ever found for
    a baby bath, but that's a digression).
    
    Anyhow, the box sat there fully accessible, and two boys have now
    reached the ripe old ages of 8 and 4 without once eating from it,
    climbing in, dumping it on the floor, loading it with their toys, or
    even peeing in it.  This despite a complete absence of barriers,
    lectures, or struggles of will with parents.
    
    So, leave it alone, unless it becomes a problem later.
    
    I did also ask our pediatrician once if this seemed reasonable, and he
    said that we had absolutely no reason to worry about the box.
    
    		- Bruce

    (.37, .39) ... though kitty took a dim view of having to jump hurdles
    with a full bladder.
    
    Our gate fit in the door jamb perfectly so that you could close the
    bathroom door without dislodging it (useful when the *bipeds* were 
    jumping hurdles).
    
    Leslie

    I remember chewing on Milk Bones as a kid, and eating grain out of the
    cow's grain bin.  Out in the field, I chewed on grass stems.  Dogs,
    cats, cows, and horses have all slobbered on me.  No ill effects.  Kids 
    (and we) are much more durable than our morbidly antiseptic society
    believes.  
    Now, we don't encourage David to eat the cat's food, and in fact we
    have it on the counter so he can't get at it.  But, that's more
    because he dumps the water on the floor and strews the food all over
    the kitchen than because of fear of some sort of dread contamination.

    Funny you should mention chewing on a variety of "not so antiseptic"
    items.  My 8-month old was laying all over one of my dogs, contentedly
    watching TV (Sesame Street) and chewing on something.  I checked what
    he had in his mouth...the dog's hind foot!  The dog didn't seem to
    mind...
    

    In the pet store yesterday buying a grooming comb for the cats, I
    put David down on the floor while I wrote the check. He was
    perfectly quiet and didn't try to go anywhere or grab anything. 
    Great, I thought.  I put my wallet away and picked him up -- 
    and he came up clutching one of those rawhide chew toys they make
    for large dogs . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    
    A while back, one of the prime-time pseudo-news shows did a
    segment on revolutions in the pet food industry (with emphasis
    on the new yuppy dog foods). During the segment they did a tour
    of a traditional ALPO-type dog food factory. What they showed was
    that these products are mostly meat by-products, specifically
    bovine hearts, lungs, brains (I think) and throats. One thing that
    I remember well, is that the throats that the factory receives are
    coated in charcoal powder to turn them black. This is to prevent them
    from 'accidently' being sold to people, because they are considered
    to be 'unfit' for human consumption. They did not actually say what
    'unfit' meant, nor did they say if the cooking process made them any
    less 'unfit'. Just thought you'd like to know.
    
    -Steve (who had a cousin that ate Milkbones and Doggie-Kisses)