Conference moira::parenting

    
    There is a discussion in note 603 in the previous version of
    PARENTING on this same subject.   DLOACT::PARENTING_V3
    
    FYI.
    Carol

    I let my boss know right up front, but was a little quieter around my
    collegues until I knew for sure that the pregancy was going well.  
    
    Meg

yeah, I told my boss right away, both times, but asked
him to keep his mouth shut until I was ready.  (He likes
knowing stuff like this; he enjoys knowing the secret
when it is such happy news.)  I told my co-workers about 
when I started to show, but my family and friends knew
much, much sooner.

My reason was that if I miscarried, I didn't necessarily
want to tell everyone (but maybe I would).  Also, I was
having amnio (due to age). While I still have no
idea whether I would have terminated the pregnancies,
(since they are both "normal"), I preferred the chance to
think such things thru without unthinking pressure from
other people.  (I mean, people who have strong feelings
one way or the other expressing their opinions at a time
I would need to make my own decisions about it).

Pat
 

    As I mentioned in the previous volume, I work with understanding
    and sensible people, so there was nothing that prevented me from
    telling everyone (boss first, co-workers immediately after) when
    the blood test came back (making me ONLY three weeks pregnant at
    the time). I did this with all three pregnancies. 
    As I lost the first one late, it was still nice to have the caring
    of my co-workers (they all came and visited me in the hospital at 
    lunch hour one day - certainly lifted my spirits) So if I were to
    miscarry I would certainly have their caring and understanding.
    
    There is no right time or wrong time to tell. Its your business,
    and certainly your decision when you announce it.
    
    Monica

    
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Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
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Some thoughts from you would be appreciated for the folowing dilemma :
My husband and I have been trying to have a child for quite some time. There
is always the possibility that "this time it worked".  However, I'm in line
for a new job, which will require much concentrated effort and some deadlines
would be thrown off and other's schedules affected by a LOA if I get pregnant
within the first couple of months of this year.  My dilemma - should I confide
in the hiring manager before the final decision is made?
We are "work friends" - i.e. we don't socialize at home, but we do at work
and share personal stories.  I guess my dilemma is - I could lose a great
job by warning him, I could NEVER end up pregnant leaving the question
moot, or I could take the job, get pregnant, and leave some bad feelings
which may linger even after I return to work.  I guess it's more of a timing
thing than anything else.
Granted, I know I'm under no obligation to tell anybody anything. But I'm
curious for some opinions from you "Parenting" members.  Obviously my joy
at being pregnant would overshadow probably just about anything else : )
Anonymous

    PLANNING and reality are NOT often the same when becoming 
    pregnant. As a matter of fact, most people assume that even
    if they start working on having a child, they have no idea when
    this will come to fruition. 
    There is no set answer for your dilemma, but remember that things
    rarely stay the same at work, and regardless of your family plans
    whether they be to start or wait, the situation at work may change
    within the next week, month or year to make all your reasons for 
    your decision moot. 
    
    Monica

    
    I waited until after I had hit the "3 month milestone" before
    telling the boss I was pregnant.  
    
    Re: New job .4 (?)
    I wouldn't say anything about it, personally.  IF it happens
    and you have the new job, work out the details then.
    
    
    
    

I do understand the dilemma.  Try thinking of it this way:

How bad would you feel if you told the hiring manager and they chose not
to hire you, and then you did not achieve pregnancy in the 'sticky' time
period?  

How bad would you feel if you took the job and became pregnant within
the first couple of months?

I'd be kicking myself for a long time in the first case, and I would feel
only a few twinges of regret in the latter case.  After all, I'd be planning
to be a contributing member of the project for the long-term -- what's a
couple of months in a career?  (And that's how I think *any* hiring manager
should view this situation).

If that doesn't help...

If you *really* want the job, but you feel *really* uncomfortable with the
possibility of throwing off schedules, would you consider taking a 2-month
break from attempting pregnancy?  I almost hate to mention this possibility
because, from a project viewpoint, there's never a good time to be pregnant.
I also recognize that if you're attempting IVF or GIFT, you may have very
strong feelings against taking a 2-month break.

My personal 'code of conduct' would allow me to accept the job without telling
the hiring manager anything.

Good luck -- in all areas!

- Deb

    I think this is a very individual decision.  I was ready to move on
    from my last job.  But, like you, decided to wait until I'd gotten
    pregnant, finished maternity leave, etc.  Well, I DID get pregnant, 
    and then miscarried.  The result was that I was in a job I wasn't 
    happy with, and had a longer wait to change career directions than 
    I'd hoped for.
    
    I've been much happier since I changed groups.  Plus, I believe that 
    my new organization was much more supportive during my trials before 
    Andy was born.  
    
    In my own situation... if I was pregnant, I'd probably be inclined 
    to tell the hiring supervisor.  But, I wouldn't tend to tell him/her 
    that I was "trying".  Also, I think that both attempting to get 
    pregnant, and being pregnant are both much easier if you are in 
    a job you are happy with.
    
    Peggy

	I was discussing my upcoming leave with my boss about 5 weeks
	ago.  I made some comment about timing, and my boss said, "Any
	person can end up on disability unexpectedly at any time, and
	we'd need to work around that.  This is just part of life."

	I really appreciated his viewpoint.

	I guess I'm saying that in your position, I'd probably not
	say anything.  Even if you were to get pregnant right away,
	you may choose not to say anything for a few months, and your
	leave would not occur for 9 months, allowing plenty of time for
	you to establish yourself in the new job, and plenty of time for
	your new boss to work out arrangements during your leave.

	Karen

    I always hoped thjat I'd be able to wait till I was three months along,
    but the first time I started spotting at work and had to go home, and
    my then-manager was so nice about it that I felt I owed her an explanation
    The second time, I was so sick that everyone put 2 and 2 together and
    sort of figured it out for themselves.
    
    Your mileage will vary, guaranteed.  In the "new job" case, I wouldn't
    make any mention of trying to get pregnant -- I personally don't feel
    it becomes your manager's business until you *are* pregnant.  In the
    first case, I'd tell my manager as soon as I felt comfortable doing so. 
    That may be at 10 weeks, 12 weeks, whenever.  These days, with everyone
    so short-staffed, if you are comfortable with an "early" announcement,
    it may help your group's planning.  You can also start exploring your
    options for your LOA and afterward, like working at home once in a
    while, part-time work, job-sharing, etc.  

Well, it is illegal for an employer to discriminate
against a pregnant employee.  Therefore, it would be
illegal to deny you the job because you are trying
to become pregnant.  However, difficult to prove.

While it is good to tell your management about 
stuff in your personal life that effects your
job, it is not a requirement to predict the future.

An ugly thought, but if you take the job and
then have an accident that takes you out of work for
several months, the same product slippage will happen.
You cannot predict such things, and I don't think you
should live your life trying to foresee all of life's
interesting twists and turns.

So, my vote - take the job, keep your mouth shut,and 
let the rest happen how and when it happens....


Pat

   I hope this comes out the way I mean it too... not sure with the
   written word sometimes...
   
   Anyway... no disrespect or offense intended here, but in telling
   someone that you are "trying", aren't you doing nothing more than
   giving them some insight into your love life and your sexual activity?
   I mean, really, there aren't that many differences between simply
   "making love" with your partner, and "trying to get pregnant", right?
   
   Just a thought...
   
   - Tom

	I wouldn't tell him you're tying.  Like others have said,
	so many things can happen/change.  Enjoy the new job and 
	when you ARE pregnant and feel comfortable, then let him
	know.

	Good Luck,
	Karen T.

    And don't forget that schedules aren't cast in concrete.  You
    may not conceive on schedule, and the project may not keep to
    it's presently published schedule either!

    
    It would be interesting to hear viewpoints on both questions 
    posed in this string from hiring supervisors or managers.
    Anyone care to comment on when they'd prefer to hear about
    an employee's pregnancy or potential pregnancy?
    
    cj/

    I've been a manager in the past at Digital.
    
    The circumstances in the base note should not, in my opinion, be
    shared with the hiring manager.  So much can change in the next
    nine (or more) months to schedules that this is low risk.  Besides,
    without additional knowledge, the manager has to know there is a
    potential of pregnancy in any case.
    
    Regarding timing, I feel about the end of the first trimester is 
    appropriate; the chances of miscarriage are, I believe, much less 
    and it still gives four or so months to plan the coverage on the 
    leave of absence.
    
    	David

As a manager, I am always personally interested in what's important in the
lives of the people on my team.

Those personal details have no bearing on any business decisions that need
to be made by me (like hiring, promotion, assignments, etc.).

I have had people in my groups (I've managed several) take leaves of absence
for a variety of reasons.  I don't treat pregnancy any different (except that
it can actually be planned for to a certain degree).

I even had one female employee accept a temporary assignment 3000 miles away
and then discover that she was pregnant.  We adjusted the schedule for the
project around her LOA.

I don't speak for any other managers beside myself.

/bruce

    Hi,   
    
    My advice is, never put your life/career on hold for a potential
    pregnancy.  When the pregnancy occurs it will enhance your life, and it
    is your choice as to whether it becomes a temporary or permanent end to
    your career path, once the baby arrives.
    
    If you are being offered the career move, take it and do not mention
    your intentions to fall pregnant, until the event actually happens,
    because if your manager is of the "work sociable" calibre, he should
    fully appreciate your position, and no doubt be delighted if you
    decided to return to work after the baby has arrived.
    
    Good luck in what ever you decide to do.  I hope that you are
    successful in both your career and your family plans.
    
    Regs
    Karen.

    I have a variation of this question (for a friend).
    If a woman starts working at a new company, how long do you think
    it is appropriate/necessary to wait before having (or trying to have)
     a baby?
    

    To get the most out of current UK legislation, 2 years + is best.
    Otherwise, it depends how much you like the job (that you may have to
    give up).
    
    I suppose you have some sort of moral duty to work for a certain length
    of time as a new job tends to exist because the employer wants someone
    to work for them (not disappear off on maternity leave).
    
    Except for the money side of things, I don't think it would make much
    difference to me.

To set my answer in perspective, I believe that a woman should do whatever
feels "right" and "fair" to her.  If your friend really feels she should
wait a few months, then (in my opinion) that's what she should do.  

My personal code of conduct would allow me to take a new job while I was
trying to get pregnant.

    >To get the most out of current UK legislation, 2 years + is best.
    >Otherwise, it depends how much you like the job (that you may have to
    >give up).
    
    I think you'll find that it is 2 years at the 20th week of the
    pregnancy, before the job is protected. 
    
    The question assumes that it is possible to plan when to become pregnant. 
    I'd suggest that it's only possible to plan when pregnancy won't occur. 
    
    Malcolm 

    To take another twist on this, my sister inlaw had her baby last
    Friday.  She had been out on STD since just before Halloween due to the
    Cyst in the uterus she (still) has, and will have to have surgery in 6
    to 8 weeks.
    
    She has been planning all along not to return to work at all. (She works
    for another very large nationwide high-tech company.) She mentioned to
    us, while visiting her in the hospital, that she is going to wait until
    about 4 days before she is due back to work to tell her boss she won't
    be coming back at all.  I just feel that morally it isn't fair to
    anyone involved, but she doesn't want to loose her remaining paid leave
    and insurance benefits.  She says there's another temp administrative
    person who has been doing her job, and will probably be hired once she
    makes her plans known, but she just doesn't seem to carry any guilt
    over what she is doing.  Do I have some strange way of looking at this?
    I think she ought to at least hint at the fact she's not coming back,
    she is still entitled to her STD pay and benifits for up to 8 weeks
    after the birth.
    
    Lyn

re: .24

I understand your point, but people DO change their minds, and circumstances 
change.  Suppose, for example, that her husband loses his job or is injured 
so that he can't work.  Suppose she feels confined being with a baby all day 
and WANTS to return to work.

It would be nice if she had a good enough relationship with her boss that she 
could tell her boss, and that he wouldn't do anything to jeopardize her 
chances of coming back if she wants to.

Clay

    RE:  .25
    
    Lynn,
    
    I can understand your question...but I agree with .25 that
    circumstances can (and often do) change.  When Shannon was born, I did
    not think I would be able to come back to work due to the "special
    needs" she might have had.  Once my eight weeks were over, I did come
    back (my husband was out of work) thinking that as soon as she was
    discharged, I would take parental leave, then probably quit when Bob
    got a job.  Well my parental leave turned into medical leave, but after
    5 months, I went back to work.
    
    Here I am,   now with two children!  Thankfully, Shannon did
    turned out just fine.  Your sister-in-law may have a change of heart
    too.  I know I had no concept of what it is like to stay home with a
    baby and get stir-crazy in my own home.  OF course, now that Shannon is
    a walking, talking, fun kid, I would enjoy being home with her and her
    sister, but as infants it can get boring.  Time will tell!
    
    beth

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.   If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.    Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
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=========================================================

I would appreciate some feedback on the following.

Here is my situation....

- High risk of getting TSOF'd
- Highly marketable skills
- Got job offer inside the company
- Got potential job offers outside the company
- BUT....3 month pregnant.

I really don't want to stick around for a next round
of layoffs and be hit when I am 5 month pregnant, with
no package and unmarketable ....

For professional reasons, my preference if I was not pregnant
would have been to take the package and leave the company.

However, because I am pregnant I feel uneasy about accepting
a job and "cheating" my employer (specially outside but even
inside Digital).

I am at a loss. I do not want to be unethical but I also feel
somehow cheated.

What would you do ???????????

   Well, not being female, I can only speculate, but...
   
   What if you had purchased some sort of packaged vacation plan and
   could not return the tickets?   I realize that even a long vacation is
   shorter than some people chose to stay out for maternity leave, but is
   there much difference besides duration?  Would you have a problem
   telling a prospective employer something like this:
   
        I have already spent money for my upcoming vacation.  I can not
        get the money back (can't reschedule), so I will be taking the
        trip.  I want the job, but you need to understand that shortly
        after I start, I will be taking "x" time off.
   
   Perhaps I'm being naive, but would that really turn off prospective
   employers?  If you take a job outside of Digital, you probably won't
   have any vacation time acrued, and depending on their policies, may
   not yet qualify for paid leave, but what about just taking the time
   off?  Yes, there are financial considerations, but if you could swing
   the dollars, would you take the time off without pay?
   
   Just some thoughts,
   
   - Tom

RE: .27

How long have you been with DEC?  Long enough for the package to
cover a fair amount of your pregnancy?  If so, I'd opt for taking
the package, spend the summer home relaxing, then look for a job
after the baby's born.  That seems to be the best of all possible
worlds.

If you do take the package and take a non-DEC job, you're not under
any legal obligation to tell them you're pregnant.  Whether you feel
a moral obligation is your call.  If you plan to return to work when
your maternity/disability leave is over, I wouldn't feel a moral obligation
to tell the new employer.  (Would you feel obligated to tell them
that you might be having surgery 6 months hence?  It's a parallel
issue.)  If you plan to take a year under the Family Leave Act, I'd
feel morally obligated to mention the pregnancy.

Just my take.

    To answer Tom's question ... YES! It does matter!  I remember vividly
    trying to find a job when I was pregnant.  I got LOTS of interviews,
    and was definitely qualified for more than a few of the positions, and
    they were able/anxious to hire.  BUT no offers were extended until
    AFTER I had the baby.  Every interviewer asked when I was due, if I
    planned to come back, and how long I planned to be out.  I think I was
    around 5 mos preg. when I started looking.  And this was all internal
    to DEC.  They're "not allowed" to discriminate because of pregnancy,
    but there's SO many other reasons to not offer a job.  And FWIW, more
    than a couple of the positions were still open long after they said "no
    thanks".  Fear of the unknown I guess.
    
    

    I agree with -.1. I haven't through it myself (interviewing while
    pregnant) but I've heard stories. It does make a difference if you're
    pregnant. 
    
    If the "inside" job looks safer than the job you presently have, I
    would take the inside job. I think it's a bad time to start a new job
    at a new company. Just because you will have more things to learn/work
    at before settling in to a new job. It will not be easy to "prove
    yourself" and "learn a new culture" while being pregnant/sick/tired.
    
    And if you plan to take time off, you might be just settling in to a
    new job at a new company when you have to go out on maternity leave. 
    
    I also think women should tell their boss about their impending
    motherhood and plans to take time off. But not until further on in 
    their pregnancy when it's probably obvious anyway.
    
    IMHO,
    
    Karen
    

    One more consideration for either staying with digital or moving on. 
    This is highly pragmatic, but have you considered your insurance
    coverage?  Some companies won't cover an existing pregnancy or
    condition until 6 months after your hire date.  This caught a good
    friend of mine who wound up paying most of her pregnancy and childbirth
    related expenses out of pocket.
    
    meg

re: .28

That doesn't feel good to me.  It's too much like lying, and yes, if I were a 
prospective employer hiring something less than a vice-president, I would be 
very put off by an applicant bargaining for vacation time.

By all means make sure of the insurance coverage.  It used to be that it was 
the coverage at time of _conception_ that covered, but I have no clue as to 
what is true today, or with your plan.

If I were you, I'd start looking now.  If you find something quickly, you 
would probably have several months before you would have to go on maternity 
leave.

Clay

    I would be honest with your prospective employer about your pregnancy.
    Part of the issue might be how much leave you want to  take.  You may
    want to let them know that you'll be flexible about time off.
    Of course the few months that you are there before you go on leave,
    you'll have to work hard to impress them.  ;^)
    
    The bottom line is to do whats right for *you* and your family.  Are
    you confident that you could find another job after the baby is born?
    
    If this outside offer the "perfect" job?  You have to weigh whats most
    important for you.
                                   

   re: 33, Clay
   
   I don't think I was clear enough when I wrote .28.  I was not
   suggesting that the originator should tell their prospective employer
   that they had a scheduled vacation when they were, in fact, pregnant.
   I was just trying to make a comparison to something that was not
   health/pregnancy related.  If the author was confortable bargaining
   for a pre-planned vacation, then my thought was that maybe they would
   be just as comfortable bargaining for a different type of pre-planned
   absence from work.   
   
   Sort of like saying "I'll take the job, but you need to understand
   that I'm scheduled to work on Jury Duty for 3 weeks shortly after I
   start."   I know, the duration might be more with the pregnancy, but I
   thought the application might be the same.

   Anyway, from a couple of replies after mine, it sounds like I was
   being naive about hidden discrimination anyway...
   
   Regards,
   
   - Tom

>   re: 33, Clay
   
>   I don't think I was clear enough when I wrote .28.  I was not
>   suggesting that the originator should tell their prospective employer
>   that they had a scheduled vacation when they were, in fact, pregnant.

Thanks Tom.  The way I (mis)understood it was very much unlike you.

Clay

   my personal experience :

   I was in the interview-for-new-job-within-DEC when I was pregnant
   with my son (yikes, 10 years ago !) - I felt uncomfortable NOT telling
   the prospective boss that I was pregnant so I told him I was very
   interested in the job but that I thought he had a right to know before
   making a final decision that (1) I was pregnant, (2) I was due in
   November which was about 6 months down the road, and (3) I fully
   intended to come back to work after the standard leave.  Since I was
   going to be a single parent, I think he felt more comfortable with #3
   (rather than a woman with another source of income [spouse, significant
   other] who *might* change her mind), but regardless of what he thought/
   felt, all he asked was whether or not I was happy about the baby, 
   congratulated me after I said YES !, and a week later, offered me the
   job !  When I came on board, we were able to plan my learning, work and
   responsibilities to coincide the timing when I'd be out, so I was 
   finishing up a project just before I left and didn't leave a lot of work
   undone or needing to be handed off.

   Would I do it again now or do it differently ?  I'd do it again, no
   differently - whether it's a planned vacation, jury duty or pregnancy
   or any other KNOWN time that you'd be out, I wouldn't feel right not
   telling the hiring manager upfront.  YMMV

	Debbi

Another anecdote:

	A couple of years ago my wife was interviewing for a job, on 
either the second or *third* interview, and things were going well.  It
seemed pretty clear she would get it.  But before they made a decision, she
too felt it only "fair" to tell the employer she was 2-3 months pregnant.
She did not get the job.

	After some temp work (here) and the birth of our son, she did get hired
at another company, but she was told later that management did not want to hire
her when they found out she had an infant at home.  Fortunately the personnel
manager objected to discrimination in this second case.

	Obviously I don't think your pregnancy should be revealed ahead of
time.  What can the purpose be of providing this information, except as
something for them to consider in the hiring decision?  Yes, it's inevitable 
that the employer will feel a little like you put one over on them.  But I
would just point out that legally, that information was totally irrelevant to
the hiring process and therefore you didn't feel it should be mentioned.

Just another 2 cents,

Brian W.

(P.S.  As a hiring manager [I once worked as a manager in a service industry],
I would be more comfortable *not* knowing this, than knowing and wondering if
a no-hire decision was colored by this knowledge...)

Discrimination definitely does happen.  And revealing your "condition" 
during an interview will certainly eliminate some perspective employers.

However...

Would you really want to work for somebody who discriminated against
pregnant women?  You say you have very marketable skills.  If that is
the case, I would hope that you will have the luxury of selecting 
the optimum future work environment.  I would suggest that you could 
use your pregnancy as a litmus test to see how flexible and "family
friendly" any possible employer might be.

I suspect that most people in your position would NOT tell the
perspective employer of their pregnancy.  However, your maternity 
leave will have an impact on the business (albeit temporary).  And
I believe that being honest up front will set the foundation for
a very honest business relationship and give you leverage in the
future for some flexibility in your work style after the baby is 
born.

- Carol

Have you considered not telling till you get to the
point of having an offer?  The reaction of the boss
then could be another data point in deciding whether
it is someone you want to work for -- that is, you'll
see the reaction to you with and without the knowledge
that you are pregnant.

Of course, a project leader that I'm very fond of looked
very distressed when I told him I was pregnant, but
was extremely cooperative, so I'm not sure exactly how
one would evaluate the results of the test.

Beryl

    I went job hunting within Digital well into my 3rd trimester.  Granted,
    this is somewhat different than interviewing with a different company. 
    I don't advise generalizing too much; each situation is different.  
    These were my experiences:
    
    I was very open about the pregnancy.  I told the interviewers that of
    course I planned to return - why else would I bother interviewing in
    this state?  I stressed that I was the breadwinner in the family, and
    that with a child we'd need my good income more than ever.  I told them
    that I already had good daycare lined up.
    
    I  positioned my pregnancy as another example of my spunkiness; nothing
    stops me!  I showed a sense of humor about it, and told about my humor
    in handling it with the classes I was still teaching.
    
    My reasoning was that while the interviewers couldn't ask me these
    questions, they were what was uppermost in people's minds.  Their
    reaction to my openness was always relief.
    
    I was open, too, with my classes.  The students, many of whom had
    travelled far, even from Japan and Europe, were worried that I'd go
    into labor and cut their class short.  I told them that I had a normal
    pregnancy, how far along I was, and that the doctor said there was no
    reason to expect an early delivery.  I even told them that I didn't
    know the sex, didn't care which sex the baby was, and even that the
    pregnancy was planned and much desired.  This broke the ice and made
    people (particularly the worried men) laugh and feel more at ease.
    
    With all my dragging to interviews, I didn't find anything I wanted and
    didn't get any offers.  I can't speculate as to why offers were
    not forthcoming, but my lack of interest was rather clear.  I ended up
    finding another Digital slot the week I returned from my 8 week
    maternity leave.  Which proves?  I don't know, but it turned out okay.
    
    Laura

    I forgot to mention that with all the students I taught, and plenty of
    time to chit chat, I heard EVERYONE's birth stories.  It was a real
    experience hearing all the men's birth stories about their wives!  Some
    of these stories were very scary.  One man's wife can close to death
    from blood loss.  It increased my natural anxiety about the upcoming
    birth, but it also prepared me for the worst.  I worked to remember
    that these worst cases are the minority.
    
    As it turned out, my childbirth was rather uneventful. Oh well  ;-)
    
    Laura

I interviewed for a job in my 2nd trimester and got an offer in my
3rd trimester.  The job was within Digital.  I was also obviously
pregnant - felt like I showed much too quickly.

I chose not to discuss it as part of the interview initially.  But
did discuss it on the 2nd interview with my potential hiring manager.
He was very open and only requested I consider the minimum amount
of time off (though I did come back part time for a few weeks).  He
said he knew I was pregnant but would not have brought it up unless I
did.

My experience turned out positively but I did have apprehension.  I 
made a few inquiries about the hiring manager and group prior to 
interviewing to get a feeling of how this might be accepted.  In the
environment today I'm not sure how open I would be if I was not 
showing - there are alot of motivations against hiring someone
who is pregnant (like if you chose not to come back they may lose
the opening).  Hard decision.

    The most consistence sense that I got, from the hiring manager, was
    that they didn't seem comfortable that I WOULD come back after the
    baby was born.  And being a first child for me, I guess they didn't
    have any of my "past" experience to base their comfort on.
    
    I like the idea of "telling" only if/when you're asked on another
    interview or made an offer (or if you know you're about to be).
    

    I agree with .39 - Make family-friendly part of *your* decision about
    where you work.

    <FLAME-ON!!>

    It makes me mad to hear about some of the stupid discriminatory and
    sexist beliefs some people hold about pregnancy. Sure, having kids means
    you have to take time off when you're due, unexpected absences when they
    get sick, having to leave early because the day care closes at the same
    time you get off of work, time spent on the phone with the doctor, the
    daycare, etc. But we're all people, and these things don't last forever.
    If someone doesn't want employees with real-world concerns and problems,
    they need to automate. Then they can spend time socializing with their
    assembly line robots (and try marketing their products to those robots).
    What comes around goes around: at some point in life most of us are
    affected by births and deaths, and they affect our work as well. Like I
    said, that's life. You have to build in tolerance for a certain amount
    of chaos. Companies probably shoot themselves in the foot by denying
    that their employees might also be parents. 

    <FLAME-OFF>

    From a different perspective, my wife, who is an operating room nurse, 
    found out she was pregnant about six months after starting her current
    job. Admittedly, this is a much different situation, since she works in
    an environment where women traditionally predominate, and the work is
    not project-oriented. But they were very understanding and adjusted
    their workloads as necesary, even though she wanted to take the full
    12-week leave. She even had an offer from another hospital where she had
    worked part-time. When she told them about her pregnancy, they offered
    to fill their opening with a temp until she was ready to return to work.
    They didn't make a fuss, they just adjusted to reality. So now she has a
    healthy baby and is very appreciative of an employer who is willing to
    work with her.

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.   If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.    Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another twist on this issue. I am 14 weeks along and it is now
common knowledge with most of the people I work with that I am pregnant.
However, I don't "work with" my manager. He's at another site, I hardly
ever see him. I work independently here (no other supervisor). Personal
life issue are never part of the conversation when we do speak.

I strongly suspect he's going to hear the news from the grapevine. If you where
a manager would you have a problem with this? I have not told him because
the issue has not "come up" as it did with the people I see everyday.

I'm also long overdue for a promotion and have once again been promised
it. I do not want him to delay that or make any other decisions on my
work load based on my pregnancy. Bottom line, the longer I delay telling
him the longer the status quo exists, and that's the way I like it.

What would be the reasons for letting him know? If he finds out from
someone else, do you suppose he'll still wait to hear it from me? It happens
to be that training a backup for me had also been an issue for a long
time but a backup is finally being trained, so that shouldn't be an
issue.

    At 14 weeks I think you are far enough along that s/he should be told. 
    S/he will have to plan for your maternity leave, etc.  Will that be a
    factor for your current work load?  Since I don't know what your role
    is, you'll have to consider his/her point of view on that.
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't "job code changes" on hold for now 
    anyway???  Check that one out with Personnel.
    
    -s
    
    

No, job code changes are unfrozen.  Salary changes are still frozen.

    I understand your concerns. I've had them myself.
    
    But if I heard via the grapevine that someone I managed was pregnant I
    would be upset. For several reasons.
    
    First, it's a matter of courtesy and trust. It's not professional
    behaviour to let one's manager hear about things that affect the
    organisation via the grapevine. When someone does this to me I 
    wonder where I've blown it.
    
    Second, it's a matter of planning for optimum work-flow Maternity
    leave, after a normal pregnancy, has to be the easiest 'disability' in
    the world to plan around. But I'd need the notice to plan. At 14 weeks,
    this isn't a fire-drill; but in general, the longer to shift and plan
    the better.
    
    Third, there's 'face.' I don't take kindly to being surprised in
    meetings or phone conversations with "so who'll be doing <insert task>
    while ...." The longer it's in the grapevine before I know about it,
    the greater the chances are that I'll look like a real horse's backside
    to the people who depend on me.
    
      Annie
    
      [who, at present, manages no one. I'm a re-tread IC and love it]
    

    What Annie said,
    
    I have made a practice of letting my boss(es) know as soon as we are
    sure it is a "real" pregnancy.  Coworkers can wait, but bosses need to
    be able to plan.
    
    meg

    I agree - let your boss know.  A good boss will respect that you've
    told them and a lousy one - well it really doesn't matter anyway.
    
    In my situation, it's just the opposite.  My manager is also remote but
    I let her know when I was about 10-11 weeks pregnant. I'm now 15 weeks
    and the people I work with still don't know.  I think it's much more
    important for her (my manager) to know as opposed to my co workers.  I
    don't like the old "how are you feeling" questions every day - just my 
    personal preference.  I asked her to keep it quiet and I know she will.
    This is my third pregnancy and the only one I've kept quiet this
    long.  I actually really like it...
    
    Of course putting the info in here makes it pretty public, but I think
    I'm pretty safe from most of my co-workers seeing this - at least let's
    hope so.
    

I agree with most of the previous responses, for most of the reasons stated. 
If you don't want your boss to know, then you shouldn't allow it to become 
"common knowledge" among your co-workers; tell only your close trustworthy 
friends, and make it clear to them that you don't want anyone at work to 
know.  If you don't care, don't let your boss find out accidentally.

In addition to reasons alrealy mentioned, there are others. 

If you allow the grapevine to get the information to your boss, then the 
information may by accident (for example the "face" issue) or even by 
malicious intent (by, say a rival for a promotional position) get framed in a 
way that is very unflattering to you.  

If you have a boss who would discriminate against you because you are 
pregnant, letting him/her find out by the grapevine makes it easier for them. 
S/he can say "Gee, I didn't know she was pregnant," and there would be no way 
for you to argue differently.

If your boss is conscientious, and s/he finds out by the grapevine, it could 
put her/him in an awkward situation.  It could be a violation of company 
policy or even a violation of law for them to attempt to verify the 
information.

Clay


 

    
    
    
    	Promotions only are happening if the money your are making is in
    the same salary range.  If you need dollars to get to your next
    promotion then you will have wait for the salary freeze to lift.
    
    	I know the feeling about if you should tell your boss but, letting
    him/her find out threw the grapevine sounds like your trying to hide
    something.
    
    Donna

    If you have very little contact with your remote manager, then they
    don't deserve to be kept up to date.
    
    Good management (IMO) is all about good communications which is 
    obviously a two way thing. If I was unhappy with little management
    contact, I would let my manager rely on the grapevine (which isn't
    going to improve the relationship, but there you go). If I was happy
    about my independance, I would take control of the communication
    aspects and report in on a regular basis via E-mail. That then gives 
    a manager opportunity to do their job and follow up by phone or 
    visit. If I was a manager who had this 'sprung' upon me at a late 
    stage in the proceedings, I would feel it was my own fault for not 
    staying in contact or not being approachable or not being trusted.
    
    Of course, I will never be quite in this situation because I'll never
    be pregnant (thank goodness :-).
    
    Andy

I would like to reply to -1.

I understand that it can be very frustrating not to have good contact with your
manager, but the I believe that there are still some basic rules which need to
be followed. And one of them is to keep them informed about major changes in 
your life directly, before they hear it from somebody else. I would put this 
rule as a self-respect toward myself, along the lines "My manager might not be
doing the the right thing, but I am stil honest."

I don't know if this helps you, but it has helped me in some situations.

    re -1

    I disagree that there is any basic rule about telling your manager
    about major life changes. If those changes do not directly effect my
    job performance it is not his/her business. I don't think it is being
    dishonest not to divulge all. After all if you had another medical
    condition that was not effecting your work you wouldn't feel any
    obligation to tell all. Some people just keep a more personal
    relationship with their manager, others do not.
    
    Gail

    
    
    
    	I agree I don't think that your manager need to know everything
    that is going on in your life.. If I think it's going to effect my job
    performance then yes I would tell him/her or if need some time off. 
    
    	Donna

    I don't agree.  We're not talking about an illness here that may or may
    not affect your job performance. We're talking about a pregnancy that,
    although it won't affect your performance, certainly affects whether or
    not someone is there to perform it!  I'd say being out on maternity
    leave affects getting the job done to say the least.
    
    No matter how much you don't interact with your boss, I don't think
    it's fair to not tell him/her so that the right plans can be put in
    place now so the job gets done while you're out on leave.  I can't
    imagine not telling a boss, no matter how poor the boss or relationship
    with the boss is, would ever be viewed as a positive thing or as a
    reflection on the boss.