Conference moira::parenting

    
    No one is paying me here:
    
    	I applaud what you said to your daughter, as I was reading it I was
    thinking to myself that's it, the perfect message to get across to
    *any* victim, ..."you are not to blame, I love you, you did nothing
    wrong"
    
    	Yes, your daughter may and probably is traumatized by the incident
    but with the strong relationship that you and she apparently have and
    the insights you carry, she will probably be able to turn this incident
    into a vaulable life lesson with whihc to carry on.
    
    	Thank you for sharing your story with us, even anonymously that
    took a lot of courage.
    
    
    			Wendy

    To .0,
    
    You sound like a strong, loving mother who set an excellent example
    for all of us in dealing with an unthinkably awful situation. 
    Because it's hard for the rest of us to "rehearse" something like
    this for ourselves, stories like yours help a great deal.
    
    Thank you. 
    
    Lucy

    I think you did remarkable, as I was reading I had tears in my eyes
    over your pain and the possibility of it happening to any of us.  
    I don't think I react very well when surprised and hope I have the 
    stability to assure my child while going crazy inside.  I am so sorry
    for your whole family's pain, no one should ever go thru it.
    

    Dear "mother"
    
    I am very sorry for what happened to your daughter but concur with the
    fellings of the others that you have done the right thing and used just
    the right words.  I wish I had been as astute as you in recognising the
    symptoms when my son was being physically (although not sexually)
    abused by his teacher.
    
    Not all children tell.  Many either are too afraid or accept it as the
    sort of thing that adults can do to children, especially an adult in an
    authority role like a teacher.  Dirk was pulled out of his chair by his
    hair and trown on the floor by his teacher in the third and fourth
    grades.  We couldn't figure out why Dirk had gone from an inquisitive
    happy child to a withdrawn, sullen demotivated one over a period of a
    couple of years.  When this teacher had a breakdown and quit "teaching"
    Dirk did not improve.
    
    It was only when we put him in a private school that his French teacher
    noticed that he behaved like a battered child, cringing away from any
    teacher that approached him and not making any friends.  I suppose she
    thought Jurgen was beating him, of course not the case.  After
    questioning Dirk and his former classmates, we found out what had
    happened.
    
    I don't feel guilty that I didn't discover this earlier, just angry,
    angry, angry.  As we told Dirk, we would have taken legal action
    against this man had we known.  Both children now know that no teacher
    or any adult for that matter has the right to treat them in such a
    manner.  Fortunately Dirk is blossoming in his love for sports and his
    new interest in scholarly activities.
    
    He can even tell a funny story about this teacher.  It seems they were
    having a sports day and were throwing a shot.  The teacher had set up
    three markers and stood well behind the third, assured that nobody could
    throw the shot so far.  Dirk, athlete that he is, managed to hit the
    guy in the chest, knocking him over and cancelling the rest of the
    sports day.
    
    One thing I do with Dirk that maybe can help you deal with your
    daughter's pain is to find opportunities to see if she wants to talk
    about it.  Every once in awhile, Dirk has something that he wants to
    say about this man (like the shot story) but is hesitant to bring it
    up.  When there is a chance, like a television news story (the shot
    story came up when we were discussing shot put in track and field) or
    whatever, I see if there is something he has to say.  Mostly I listen
    but at least he knows that he can talk about it.  It is part of the
    healing process.
    
    I wish this had never happened to you and your family and that the
    scars heal quickly and completely.
    
    Cheryl

    To .0
    
    just heard two month ago nearly the same story.
    one of my best friends was abused by her uncle, while he
    was looking after her, when she was a child.
    she is now 24 and still thinking of it because she never told
    her mother. she was to afraid.
    so be lucky your daughter told you and can work it out.
    my friend has not.
    
    christine
    

    Dear "Mother",
    
    As I was reading your note with tears in my eyes it brought back some
    very painful memories for me.  I have an 11 yr old neice and a 9 yr old
    nephew who where sexually abused by their mothers sick boyfriend and
    his friends.  They werwe forced to have sex with these guys and do oral
    sex acts.  My brother has custody of the kids know and for my neice it
    has been a very bumpy road to this stage in her life where she is
    starting to develope and going through and exam by a gyn.  I took her
    to see mine since mine is a specialicest and deals with this matter at
    the hospital where I go.  Thank god my neice wasn't hurt in any way and
    can still have children if she wants when she gets older.  My neice ws
    also sexualy abused by a male babysitter when she was 6 months old. 
    She is in counseling and the teachers and guidence counslers at the Jr.
    high where she goes to school are aware of her problem and that she had
    some drastic mood swings becasue of this matter.  As a favor to my
    brother I had a talk with my neice and told her the facts of life and
    what would happen to her as she got older.  Her first response what
    that she is not going to let any guy touch her and that she is not
    going to have any kids.  I told her taht she may change her mind and if
    she ever needs to talk to just pick up the phone and give me a call. 
    She is doing alot better and even has a nice boyfriend and she has
    warned him that if her tries to touch her she will tell the police and
    her father.
    
    I applued you for your great courage in dealing with this matter with
    you daughter.  When my son started daycare and was old enought to
    understand things I told him that if anyone touches his privat areas to
    tell me.  I do ask him occansianlly and he is very truthful, thank god.
    
    Good luck and it will take you, your family and your daughter a long
    time to get through this but be strong and thank god that it did not go
    further than it did.
    
    Liz

    I guess this is just an observation, but over the last week I have
    heard from two friends who have children who have been sexually abused
    by family members.  Then there have been at least two real-life movies
    on major TV networks in the last few weeks dealing with sexual abuse.
    The only reaction I guess I can muster is "WHY?"  Why do the sick
    adults have to RUIN the innocence of a child?  It absolutely makes my
    blood boil!!  The movie last night "liar liar" particulary tore at my
    heartstrings.
    
    Part of me is glad that in today's society sexual abuse doesn't have to
    be a big secret anymore.  The other part of me wishes that the sick
    people would just admit they've got a problem and seek treatment.
    
    In my case it is a friend with a 5 year old girl who tried to commit
    suicide by running her bike in front of a moving car, rather than deal
    with the abuse any longer.  Her 4 year old brother has repeatedly tried
    to strangle (yes I said strangle!) his mother.  Both have been raped
    and abused by ex-grandparents, and the childrens' father.  The mother
    of these children was raped by her ex father inlaw.
    
    The second is a teen who has been molested by a teen cousin.  The teen
    boy is now threatening the girl's father with making molestation
    accusations against him, if the girl's father reports the incident. 
    The boy's father is an alcoholic and is living with his brother (the
    teen girl's father) due to a fire in which he was burned out his home
    last month.
    
    I guess I'm rambling, and apolgize if I've offended anyone.
    
    Lyn

    I agree that it's WAY too common.  Two friends of mine have daughters
    who went through this.  Both were about 5 years old at the time.  In
    both cases it was MONTHS before their parents found out that anything
    had happened, as the girls had been threatened that "if they told",
    they would get in REALLY big trouble, and no one would believe them
    anyway.  One of the girls was forced to have intercourse with an 8 year
    old boy who was a "friend of the family".  As the story goes, his
    mother (who was babysitting them) walked into the room while the act
    was in progress, and walked back out again.  The other girl was forced
    to get undressed and touch herself in front of her 6-7? year old (male)
    cousin.  She ran out of the woods before anything further happened, but
    her friend that was with her was not so brave/lucky.  
    
    Speaking from my own personal experience, I can honestly say that it's
    nothing you EVER forget.  While my own situation was more physically
    violent, I don't believe there is any more/less feeling of violation
    than any one is these circumstances feels.  The most difficult part of
    all of it has been in dealing with the "if only"s and trying not to
    blame myself or have others blame me.  Even something as simple as a
    careless remark ... "If you leave the shades up at night, you're only
    INVITING trouble!", which may seem harmless to an average person, has
    all sorts of hidden meanings and accusationsto those who've been
    violated.  I think part of that stems from growing up thinking that you
    have CONTROL over your own self.  Do not be fooled.  
    
    Watch for things that scare her -- ASK her what scares/bothers her. 
    I'm afraid of rainy nights ... only because of the circumstances at the
    time.  Not something that you'd normally think of, but quite vivid in
    my mind.  Don't expect her to EVER get over it, or put it behind her,
    or any of that.  One of the most painful things for me was a comment
    that came from someone who "knew", and should've been more sensitive to
    it all.  It was a difficult evening, and after explaining what was
    bothering me, their response was "Well come on, it's been almost TWO
    YEARS!"  And in a hundred years any person who lives through this will
    still be able to paint you a perfectly clear picture of it all.  
    
    Let her grieve - HELP her grieve.  Let her talk and talk and talk about
    it.  I know with my friends' daughters, the one who was forced to have
    intercourse always used to talk about it - we'd be in the ladies room
    and she'd say "Shawn was a very bad boy.  He touched me down there and
    he made me hurt".  It would break my heart to hear this beautiful, 
    innocent little girl speaking of these kind of things.  We'd talk for a
    minute or two, and then she'd be off talking about something else or
    singing or whatever.  She knew she was free to talk about it whenever
    she wanted.  Remarkably, she seems to be doing *VERY* well with it all.
    The other little girl still feels very ashamed of it all, and will
    NEVER EVER EVER talk about it.  She's been taught that her body is
    hers, and that it's all very private, and that's the end of it.  We do
    NOT discuss private things about our bodies.  And so she never felt
    comfortable in discussing it at all, has no idea HOW to now, and is
    simply too embarassed by the whole thing to even want to. 
    Unfortunately, this little girl is having a LOT of trouble, and 2 years
    later is still in counseling, which doesn't appear to help her much.
    
    Talking to those you love, and hearing their supportive, unblaming
    response, does more to heal the soul than just about anything else can.
    
    Good luck, and thank you for sharing your story.  There are so many
    children who never get the attention that they need, and end up living
    whole lives like this .... thank God your daughter has such a loving
    attentive mother!
    
    
    
    

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes
to remain anonymous.  For the purpose of this string, his pseudonym
will be "Concerned Father".

     Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

*************************************************

Dear Mother,

It is from reading you note that I find the courage to write about my 
experience.  It has been a year since my children were molested by my
brother.  I grew up never hearing about things like this.  It just never 
happens.  So naturally I wasn't worried about it happening to my own kids.
Especially with members of my own family.

My son displayed the same "symptoms" as your daughter did.  Taking fits 
because he didn't want to go.  I naturally dismissed them as silly, and 
that he was to attached to us.  He was three.  My daughter was also involved,
but displayed less of a reaction.

We found out after they told another relative.  Apparently my kids were 
told that if they tell me, they would get hurt.  My son was told that he would
be thrown out a window.  When I was told, I became full with rage, confusion
utterly in disbelief, but my wife and I sat down with the kids, and with as 
much patience, listened to their stories.  For those of you you have never 
been through this, I sincerely hope you never have to here these words coming 
out of a 3 and 4 year old.  You literally die inside.  You can feel you heart 
just drop like you have been on a rollercoaster or something.

I called my mother, who at first did not seem to believe, but later came 
around.  My brother was sent briefly to a kinda mental health hospital,
and we had to bring our children to that state child welfare center to have 
investigators interview the kids.  My daughter would talk about it.  She
had a hard time understanding, and relating what happened into actual
words, my son regressed everything.  He became mad, and would say "I don't 
want to talk" in a kinda rebellious tone.

Please excuse any typos, but my hands are shaking while I am typing this.

At the advice of the state investigator, we sought the help of a child
counselor who specialized in these type of events.  She was very good in 
detecting what had happened, but it was her conclusion that the children
should be able to return to what is referred to as a normal childhood.

Hopefully, like yours, they will come away with the knowledge that they
are not to blame, and that we will be there for them, and most importantly, 
that they will come directly to us.

But it doesn't stop there, and I suggest it will not for you.  Guilt 
stays with my wife and me, but I also live now in constant fear.
How the hell can we protect our children, when even the ones you trust
can do this.  You never ever really know anyone.

This has also caused a great strain on my marriage.  Our problems may never be 
resolved, and a lot of problems that we have faced, stem from this
occurrence.  It literally destroys your life, and you are left just trying to 
do what is best for your family.  I will never forget, or forgive.  I will
never see that brother again, but I guess I am lucky I didn't kill him.
Because I sure wanted to.

My main message is that I am afraid it may not be over yet my friend.  It sure
isn't for me.  It has been a year, and this is the first time I have actually
put down how I feel and took a good look at that.  I hate.  And I don't
know that the feelings will ever go away.

Good Luck.

     "Concerned Father"

    
    
    Okay, as a new father I've read enough to be worried. What should my
    wife and I be doing NOW with out 9 month olds to try and not let this
    happen. I guess 9 months is too young for a serious convresatio, so
    when they turn old enough to talk to, what I do?
    
    Its sounds like I should be saying,
    
    1) your body is yours and nobody can make you do something you don't
       want to
    
    2) also trust Mum and Dad, and talk to us about anything
    
    what else?
    
    Simon

    	I am absolutely awed by the courage and honesty that is
    continually displayed in this notesfile.

    				Wendy

    Simon, 
    
    It seems to me that the message of trust gets built into your
    relationship right from the beginning.  Saying the words, when the
    child is old enough, is necessary but not sufficient. Fundamentally,
    trust is nonverbal.
    
    To me in my relationship with my daughter, trust means that I am always
    responsive to her feelings and moods.  I never label her in a negative
    way.  I notice shifts and respond to them.  I never belittle her.  I
    listen.  I watch.  I try very hard to understand her speech.  
    
    To give you an example.  Last night she was tired and had two temper
    tantrums.  Each time, she pushed me and yelled, "Go away."  I hovered
    nearby hoping to be of assistance, then went into the next room and
    waited a few minutes.  I noticed that her tone changed, and she was
    pleading for me.  I immediately came.  She lifted her arms.  I picked
    her up and soothed her until she got back to normal.  I never blamed
    her for the tantrums and supported her in changing her focus to a new
    activity that pleased her.  After she ate, I put her to bed early and
    firmly but lovingly made her stay in her room until she went to sleep
    after a few minutes of quiet play.
    
    Invest all of yourself in your children for the first three years in
    particular.  Every minute is very important.  The nonverbal cues and
    responses will develop trust that will last a lifetime.
    
    Laura
    

    I think some other very important things you can do are:

    Respect your children's boundaries (and they will also respect them).
    In the evenings we often have tickling "fests" with Spencer. He enjoys
    it up to a point and then he makes a sort of funny groan (not really
    talking yet) when he's had enough.

    We ask him if he wants us to stop, wait for acknowledgment of the
    question and then we stop. Seems so simple but it's a strong validating
    message to Spencer, if you don't like what we are doing, you have the
    right to make it stop.

    Another thing that we do, is make Spencer aware of his body parts. He
    knows what his penis is and he knows that it is his. He knows his
    bottom but as he can't really find it yet, it has not made the
    impression on him that that 'ol penis has made. We show him basic
    respect for his (entire) body so that hopefully he will respect his
    body.
     
    Even with the very young you can start acknowledging and accepting
    boundaries.
    
			Wendy

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.  For the purpose of this string, his pseudonym will
be "Confused."

      Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

********************************************************

	     Child Rape From a Victim's Perspective

Dear "Her Mother"

Believe it or not, you have won the biggest battle.  You may find that hard
to believe, but I say it from experience.

As I write this my hands are shaking, my heart pumping, and my mind racing.
You see I was the victim as a child.  The offender was my own brother.  I am
a male, in my mid thirties.  Things like this didn't happen in the 60's.

I come from a large family.  My sisters and my brother were all spaced two
years apart.  I was 5 years younger than my sister.  My brother was almost 
9 years older than I.  I was an "accident".  Maybe I got lost in the shuffle,
maybe my mom was burned out by then (dad wasn't around much by that time), but
no one saw it coming.  No one saw the change in me, no one was there to help. 

I was considered a bright child (early IQ test showed scores in the 140's), but
I was a B student.  Took a lot of days off school because I was "sick".  Got
out of high school and only got a two year degree.  I picked a profession where
I could excel in my own little world.  Made a lot of enemies in the process.  
Often described as an "angry young man".  And no one knew, and they still don't.
My mom is in her 70's now, and I can't see bringing it up, it would kill her.

But, YOU DO KNOW.  You CARE!  Most important thing to remember....let your 
daughter know it was not her fault!  She did nothing wrong.  Talk about it
when she wants to talk about it, don't press.  Mood swings may become more
apparent, understand where they may be coming from.  Your daughter may become
an introvert (against what might have been her prior behavior).  Let her
know you love her....in every way you can.  Hold her when she's down, cry
with her when she cries....be there to protect and more importantly to teach.
Make sure she understands that the whole world is not bad.  That there are
beautiful things out there that are worth consuming with her body and soul.

For those of you who have not been touched by something like this.  LEARN TO
TALK TO YOUR CHILDREN.  Build a strong trust with your child so the child
never feels like they can't talk to you about ANYTHING.  Don't pass off
stange behavior without stepping back and looking for the warning signs.

I have been married for 3 years now, and I have two beautiful daughters.  I
will try with all my heart not to impart my anger on them.  Please try not to
impart your anger on your daughter.  The world is cruel enough without having
the people closest to you living with that kind of anger.  I understand your 
feelings about the girl who did this to your child.  I often wish my brother
would burn in hell as you have.  I still have to face this person at family
get togethers (my family doesn't know anything about it, and it's just expected
that he gets invited to everything, even my daughter's birthday parties).

I live with this each and every day.  Some days are better than others.  I used
to think sometimes that I wouldn't go on....but I did....and I'm glad....I love
my wife, I love my children, and I'm even beginning to like myself a little.

Sorry this note jumps all over the place....but like my life I'm still a little

"Confused"

    I'd also suggest that if you are the parent of a boy, you should
    teach him to RESPECT girls.

    After reading all this and knowing what happened to my neice and nephew
    (who is just starting to rebel and it has been over 3 years so you know
    the anger can sit inside them for along time even with going to
    counseling).  I have a great relationship with my 3.5 yr old son.  I
    have told him that "NO ONE" is allowed to touch his "winkie" (penis)
    and his bum or for that matter anyother part of his body.  I told him
    that if anyone touches him in those places to tell me.  Kow everytime
    he comes home from daycare he tells me that this other little boy has
    touched his winkie.  The other child is 2.5 and is at the courious
    stage and they pee together if they both have to go at the same time. 
    I told my son to tell the daycare lady next time he touches him.  The
    other child is very spoiled and his parents always give him his own
    way.  I also think that he is neglected sometimes due to the way he
    talks and acts when I am at daycare either droping off or picking up my
    son.  I am going to have a conversation with my pedi about this when my
    son goes for his 4 year check up and see what he thinks of this matter. 
    My son is a very bright 3 yr old and has been able to write his name
    front and back wards for a year now.  So I know he understands me when
    I tell him to tell me if he is touched in a bad way.  I know the
    daycare lady helps him in the bathroom when he goes poops but I have
    seen what it does to children who are molested from my neice and nephew
    and basicly know what to look for in his behavor.
    
    I hope all the other parents and children involved in this note have
    alot of love for one another and I am sure you all do.  I know I can't
    love my neice and nephew more and will do anything to help them out
    when they need it.  My nephew is starting to rebel and his counseler
    told my brother that it is all that has happened to him over the course
    of his life so needless to say my brother has his hands full right
    know.
    
    Liz

    
    There was a VERY interesting article in SELF magazine I believe, maybe
    about a year ago that discussed overcoming grief/trauma.  In quite a
    lot of detail, it went through the different steps that must be
    achieved in order to "deal with" the trauma.  And if any one of those
    steps was not completed, or completely resolved, then one could not go
    on to the next step, or at least would keep coming back to the same
    step again and again, potentially forever, until it was resolved.  I
    don't remember exactly how the steps went, but it was something like;
    
    Denial
    Guilt/Frustration
    Remorse/regret
    Anger/Blame
    Acceptance
    
    The article was geared more towards those HELPING someone overcome what
    they had had done to them.  I believe that the basis for the "story"
    was a woman who had been badly abused by her father as a child, and
    suddenly as an adult with children of her own, it took over her life.
    Most people get stuck in either denial or anger.  And until all that
    can be worked through, it will be haunting forever.  That's not to
    suggest that working through all these steps will make the pain go away
    - it is just supposed to make it be something that can be dealt with.
    
    There's most likely more accurate/informative information at your
    mental health office - in particular in dealing with Depression, as
    these are similar steps to recovery. 
    
    Try not to get frustrated when she/he keeps coming back to the same
    questions (BUT WHY?!?!?!?) - until they get an answer that's acceptable
    to them, the issue will be there forever.  Look for new answers, and
    always remember, that a Hug can go a lot further than you'd think.
    

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.  This noter's pseudonym for this string will be "Hurting
for my Daughter".

   Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

**********************************************************

My daughter is now 13, and still struggles with what happened to her when she
was 3 & 4. I had just come out of an abusive marriage, both physical & mental,
so needless to say I was not very stable at the time. I moved back home with
my mother & stepfather. My mother by the way was also a very abusive person
herself, but I had no where else to go. I got a job so that I could move
out as soon as I could, but that ended up being almost 2 yrs.
My stepfather worked off & on and so did my mother. My son was in first
grade, so however was not working at the time took care of my daughter.

As  I was living there my mother had this way about her that made me feel 
like a little girl again without children of my own, (which by the way,
was not very hard to do in my condistion).

Anyway, to try and make a very long story short, my stepfather molested my
daughter. At one point when she told me "grampy" stuck his tongue in her mouth
I confronted my mother who in turn told me that my daughter was making up
stories and that I was trying to start trouble. Mind you my mother started
hitting my kids and myself during our stay there, and I had been secretly
trying to find a place to live. She told me that I was not leaving, she
needed my money. I did not know that he had done anything else to her until
I finally moved out. When we we in our own place my daughter said to me
that she was scared that grampy was going to burn our house down.
When I asked her why she said that, she told me that if she ever told
anybody that he would burn us up. Well she told me more, and more. no 
matter what the counselors tell me I will always feel guilty that I was not
there for her when she needed me. After 2 yrs of a living hell when I 
took him to court, he was given a 2yr suspended sentance and 5 yrs probation.
So much for justice being done.

ALWAYS listen to your children. ALWAYS investigate ANYTHING that could 
be potentially hurting your kids.

      "Hurting for my Daughter"

    RE:
    
    >                      <<< Note 546.15 by ALFA2::PEASLEE >>>
    >                              -< Such a sad note >-
    >
    >    I'd also suggest that if you are the parent of a boy, you should
    >    teach him to RESPECT girls.
    
    
    No, this is a sad note. Respect knows no gender and children should be
    raised to respect all living things. This is so stereotypical, I'm
    offended. 

    My wife was an abused child who is still dealing with the after effects
    30 yrs later. We talked about this note. She has quite a bit of fear
    for our daughter because of her experence. One thing she has made sure
    we have taught our children is that they can say no to us if they feel
    uncomfortable with something we are doing. We are often taught as
    children to respect authority & do what we are told. But we told our
    children not to do anything they do not feel right about, that they have
    our permission to talk to us first about it. If someone touches them &
    they feel it not right or the person won't listen if they say no they
    need to tell someone. Also that if one person doesn't listen to keep 
    telling until someone does hear. The last thing is we are teaching them to 
    respect their brother or sisters bodies. That means stop tickling when 
    asked, no hitting, etc. When my daughter wanted to lick my wife's face she 
    repeatedly said "No I'm sorry this is my body & I don't like that". It 
    reenforces the ability to say to be in charge of your own body, when we 
    also say no to our children if they are doing something to us we do not
    feel comfortable with. 
    
    Frank M.

I wish I could reassure you all that talking openly & honestly to your 
children at an early age, and a trusting & nurturing environment will 
assure that your child is not molested. I realize as parents we need to 
believe that we can keep this poison away from our children. Sometimes,
we need to believe it so badly, that as a society we are unable to listen
to our children. And so child molesters go free.

You see, if the child trusts the adult then abuse can occur. Pedophiles
work very very hard to earn trust, this is the only way they can get
away with it again & again. Pedophiles do not wear signs. They are very
often well liked by adults. They are people that we as parents trusted
to be with our children!

The point is, don't rely on the children to be able to stop a molester.
You have to be able to listen to your own warning signs - if you don't
trust someone then thats warning enough. For those of us who are survivors
it can be difficult to listen to that inner voice. And even with all this,
I am sorry, there is no guarantee your child will not be a victim. When
my daughters behavior changed I took her to the best clinics in this
state and they did not pick up on the abuse either.

Another aspect to this is that the child "goes away" during abuse as a
way of protecting themnselves from the terror that is occurring. Memories
often remain blocked for many years. 

On July 25 1990, the Clinton Item ran a front page story stating that John 
S. Wright of 311 Hubbarston Rd Princeton Ma was found guilty of 3 counts of 
rape and abuse of a child under 14 and was ordered to serve 4 months in the 
House of Correction. 

This man who molested my daughter, (my second husband) actually plea 
bargained: the 3 counts of rape were dismissed and "traded" for the 3 
indecent assault & battery of child under 14. This was considered a win
by the DA's office. He served less than 4 months and got out early on good 
behavior. The number 3 is for each year of abuse, starting in the 4th grade. 
You see she was terrorized so many times she could not count them all. Was 
it 80? 100? 200 ?

And statistically, pedophiles are always on the prowl for new victims...

What should we do if we learn our child has been molested?  Name the abuser. 
Prosecute. Get your child into therapy. Get yourself into therapy because
people would rather blame you for not protecting your child then blame the
SOB who committed the crime.  

The only way to change a system that victimizes victims and protects rapists 
is to call it like it is. The spousal privilege law gagged me from saying
anything that he said to me about the abuse. (When I found out about the abuse
I threw him out. Days later I went to him. Why! I just want to know WHY? He
said because she wanted me to. Court would not allow that as evidence).

Recently, I worked with some concerned citizens and put forth legislation
that would require mandatory sentancing of *repeat* sex offenders. It was 
shot down in the House. There was a concern that parents would not report 
these crimes if they thought the repeat offender would go to jail. Go figure.

    re .21
    
    What you have gone through is the worst thing that any parent can go
    through.  It has been 13 years since my two oldest children were
    sexually molested by a man, that worked at my son's daycare center.  
    
    Rage and deep betrayal seemed to consume me for so long!!!   Thankfully
    my oldest two seem to be okay.  
    
    I believe empowering children with the right to say no and to tell and
    keep telling until someone listen is a start in the right direction for 
    protecting them.  Ultimately there is no guareenteed way to protect
    your children 100% from the sicko's of this world.  Rather a sad thing
    but it is a fact of today's modern life.  
    
    In my area, today, there is a man that I am certain is a pedophile.
    Since the children (young teen to mid teen) won't report anything to the 
    police there is nothing legally that can be done.  I have made it a
    point to warn them and my children about this man.   
    
    I wish I had known about the legistration that you had tried to get
    through as I would liked to have helped to push it through.  
    
    
    susan  

    Such a horrible thing continues to happen every day.  On of the
    previous replys asked what we as parents can do to prevent this from
    happening, and I wholeheartedly agree with what had already been
    suggested.  But in addition to that there are other steps we can take.
    
    Specifically, I have been very pleased with every day care and
    extra-curricular activity my children have been involved in. I check
    each one out thoroughly before I use it. I ask for references and CHECK
    the references.  Better yet, ask friends for referrals first.  But my 
    responsibility doesn't end there.   With each one, I make unscheduled 
    visits. I might pick up my kids early, or drop them off late.  I may go 
    at 10:00 am or lunch to visit ALWAYS UNANNOUNCED.  If I was ever 
    rebuffed by a provider I would have yanked my kids out of there.   I don't
    care if they have a schedule to attend to, my children and their safety 
    are my responsibility and I take it quite seriously.  I do this with
    daycare, camp, music lessons, brownies and anywhere I am entrusting my
    children to some one else.  Even when I leave them to be babysat by a
    family member I will still use these techniques.  
    
    You might think I am overdoing it, and so I will relate my story.   
    When I was a child we had a dirty old man, actually the grandfather of my 
    best friend.  He would lure the little girls with candy, and then molest 
    them, mostly fondling and exposing himself.  I didn't tell, I didn't have a
    receptive parental environment, and as a result my younger sister was
    also molested along with about 6 other girls in the neighborhood.  He
    was eventually run out of town.  The most interesting part of this is
    that last year I was at my mother-in-laws house and we (her 3 adult
    daughters, another sister-in-law and a great-grandmother) 6 adult women
    ranging in age from 75 to 33, had a conversation where we related that 
    all had experienced various degrees of sexual assault when we were children
    from people we shouldn't have been worried about.  WE ALL handled it by 
    avoiding any further contact with that person.  NO ONE TOLD.   It wasn't 
    someting you talked about.   
    
    If you only teach your children to tell you when something happens, then 
    you are reacting to it, and we need to find ways to be PROACTIVE.  I think 
    that sexual offenders should be publically exposed.   You should be able 
    to get a list of them.  We need to legislate and ENFORCE laws that REQUIRE 
    criminal checks on people that are caregivers to our children. This should 
    be a NATIONAL list, not just state by state.  I go as far as saying I wish
    they had to have a visible tatoo on thier foreheads but I think I won't get
    that passed.  Maybe neutering them??? 
    
    Also, I understand the need for anyominity (sp) but I feel that by
    signing my name I empower myself as a surviver with nothing to be
    ashamed of, He should be ashamed not me.   You as parents should not be
    ashamed or guilty and certainly your children shouldn't either.  I know
    this is a VERY INDIVIDUAL CHOICE, and I do respect it, but I am
    concerned that by hiding something, we perpetuate unconciously that the
    victim did something wrong.  It also has the effect of manifesting tons
    of work to keep the secret, and denies you the opportunity to grieve,
    which is often enhanced by allowing supportive people access.
    
    Don't think that it isn't wide spread.  It is a very pervasive problem
    in our society.  If it happens to you, and I Pray it never does, Please
    have the courage to report it.
    
    Good luck and bless each of you.   
    Beth Bell Lavoie 

Two things that we do in our family:

	1) if we are playing a tickle game or some other similar game,
	   and someone says to stop, the other person *has* to stop.
	   This helps the child feel empowered to say no, even to the
	   parents or other adults.

	2) when discussing abuse, we make it clear that when we say that
	   "no one" is allowed to do "x" to the child, that "no one" includes 
	   both of his parents.  I would rather risk my child going to 
	   my spouse and saying that I had improperly touched him than to 
	   risk him *not* going to one of us if my spouse or another 
	   relative abused him.  So many children are abused by one or more 
	   of their parents, and though we hate to think our spouse would 
	   do this, it is always possible.  Children need to know that
	   *no one* is allowed to abuse them.
	
     Carol

    How do you handle those occasions where Aunt Vermilda is visiting
    from the other side of the country and wants to smooch your 
    kids, and will be hurt if rebuffed, but the kids don't want to?
    
    Or even worse, when the kids are old enough to agree to a smooch
    out of politeness, even though they are cringing inside? I'm always
    torn on this one. I try to let my children make the call. It depends 
    on each situation.
    
    Lucy

We don't force our children to kiss or hug anyone they don't want to,
and that includes us, so if Aunt V were visiting and wanted a kiss, but
the kids were reluctant, I'd say "that's alright,honey, you don't have
to kiss Aunt V. if you don't want to."  and then I'd take the child myself
to avoid Aunt V. forcing the situation.  We've done this successfully when
the kids don't remember someone (like when my Mom and Dad come home from
wintering in Florida), and so far, no one's feelings have been hurt.  In
our family, we believe that a child should never be forced to be affectionate
with someone they don't want to for whatever reason they may have, and
I'm not afraid to verbalize that philosophy to whoever may want that kiss
that the kids don't want to give.  I find by actually validating that it's
OK for the child not to kiss and telling the visiting person, they usually
agree that they wouldn't want the child to think it's OK for someone to
force their affections on them.  

And I'm hoping that this will teach my children that they have a right to
say 'no' and that it will be respected by everyone, including Mom and Dad.


Cathy

    I agree with Cathy - Aunt Vermilda has to get with the times if she
    can't understand that sometimes NO is word.  I would remind the kids
    that this is a relative - but in no way encourage them to give in. 
    After all - relatives have been kown to abuse, too!
    
    It's a tough world out there and thru an evolution WITH the times, we
    can teach our kids to act responsibly and safely - it's hard on us as
    parents because it's not the kind of life we had to live.  Keep in
    mind though, those kids don't know how life was for us - this is all
    they know so they don't feel like they are missing out on something.
    Same as we didn't think we were missing out when our parents had to
    make changes for us.
    
    -sandy
    

    .23
    
    I just had to comment on what you talked about surprise visits and
    going to pick up your child earlier.  This may not belong here, but
    this instance reminds me of the potential for setting up your child to
    be abused.....
    
    I'm in the mode of looking for new daycare for my child.  I called the
    Digital Resources and through them I got the names of some childcare
    providers.   I've been calling around and one person that I talked to
    has specifically mentioned that she would not take surprise visits and
    if you arrive to pick up your child early you will need to pay a
    $5/half hour fee for coming to pick up your child early.  
    
    Well needless to say, this person is not on the list of possibilities. 
    I will not be restricted from picking up my child and if I want to, I
    will drop in unexpectedly.  This one really pushed my hot buttons.  I
    kind of get cold chills surrounding this issue....
    
    Any comments?   Anyone else ever come up with a daycare provider that
    has this/or any other stupid rules?

re .28

I would call Digital's referal service and mention this.  They should remove
them from the list!

Michael

Taking no surprise visits is a BIG red flag, but charging if picked up early
could be a way to insure the sitter's salary - if paid by the hour.

Laura

    re .-1
    
    That may be true about the sitter's salary.  My only uptake with this
    is that if I am paying the sitter for 50 hours a week and I come and
    pick up my child early, she still gets paid for 50 hours a week.  This
    is a set salary for full time.   I don't understand the penalty for
    early pickups and I never will.  Her reason is that it upsets the
    routine of her day.....   I personally will not put my child with a
    sitter who is more concerned about the routine of her day?  Sure the
    routine is important, but not so important that surprise visits and
    early pickups are forbidden.............
    
    Just my opinion...
    
    Sarah

    RE: .-1
    
    I too am a bit surprised about the charge for early pickup.  As far as
    upsetting the schedule, I can understand this a bit.  My wife has a
    somewhat set schedule for naps and "quiet" time each afternoon.  If
    there are visitors at this time, the remainder of the day can be
    disrupted because of naps being too short etc.  We do encourage parents
    to stop by anytime though with the exception of meal time.  Again, meal
    time is stressful for the provider and the kids usually get a bit hyper
    then too.
    
    FYI - OFC regulations: Section 8.10 subsection (10) PARENT VISITS
    
    	" Parents shall be able to visit a family day care home unannounced
    at any time during the hours that their child is present.  The provider
    shall inform all parents of this policy in writing, and a copy of such
    notification shall be maintained in the child's record."
    
    Dan

    Hi,
    
          Regards to surprise visits and not picking up the children early
    (charging extra also). Both these would raise a flag to me. Early
    pickups comes with surprise visits, if they don't expect you early then
    it's a surprise visit. I would be very concerned with this rule. I read
    in Reader's digest, (I don't remember what issue  ) that this was a 
    very important thing to make a parent leary. A parent should have the 
    right to come to the day-care or babysitters at anytime and observe 
    how the child is being cared for, and also the program that is being
    used for the children's learning.
    
          As far as "quiet" time and naps, the parents should be told at 
    what time this happens and then they could enter in a door that the
    children can't hear them or they can't choose a time that they want
    to observe play time or learning time.
    
    
          I'm all for being concerned and protective of our children.
    Anything that makes a parent uncomfortable shoule never be brushed off
    or ignored. Children need to know that the parents are there for them 
    and will listen and help them and protect them.
    
          I say this because I'm 42 years old and just now going to healing
    groups because of my childhood. My mother wouldn't listen to me. My
    god-father sexually, physically, emotionally abused my for years. It's
    haunted me all my life. I never realized that this was the root of my
    problems I have. I've never felt like a normal, whole human being. Now
    I have to face a lot of pain. I never realized that through therapy and
    support I could live a better life. Most of my pain has been brought
    out so drastically because of someone that told me of things that were
    going on in her home with her children and new husband. I feared
    sexual abuse and tried to tell her my fears. She was angry at me. I
    talked to her ex-husbands sister about my fears. She told the
    children's father. The children's father now have the children (girl
    12, boy 8). They were being physically abused, neglected and the girl
    was being sexually abused. The ex-husband has the children and the
    step-father is in jail. He got 2 consecutive sentences 12 years, and
    13 years ( he'll probably only spend 2 or 3 years I'm told) I pray
    for the 25 years. The mother sees me as a big mouth trouble maker 
    that ruined her life. She's in denial. This happened Last October and
    she is still in denial that I'm not to blame for the problems, I only
    needed to talk to someone to find a way to help these children. I
    didn't do anything wrong. 
    
           Take care,
    
           Rose
    
    

    I have a question relating to this note that maybe someone can answer. 
    I am currently dating a lady with a 6 year daughter who was sexually
    abused by her father while he was exercising his visitation rights. 
    The divorce/child custody is governed by the state of Oklahoma where
    the divorce actually took place.  She now lives in Colorado, and her
    ex-husband (who still lives in Oklahoma) was convicted in the state of
    Colorado for child abuse, but the state of Oklahoma dropped the charges
    for "lack of sufficient evidence."  Her child has been under
    protective juristiction of the state of Colorado pending an appeal in
    Oklahoma.  Yesterday, she found out that he appeal was turned down in
    Oklahoma and she is being ordered to delivery her daughter to the
    father this weekend for his visitation rights.  She was told that if
    she does not comply, she will be in contempt of court.  Obviously she
    is very upset about the thought of having to send her daughter to spend
    two weeks with a child molester.  Do "contempt of court" charges cross
    state boundaries?  What happens if she refuses to allow the visitation. 
    I would think that if her ex was convicted in the state of Colorado she
    could get a restraining order to prevent him from coming to Colorado to
    take the child.  Unfortunately, I think she is being jerked around by
    lawyers who want to continue lengthy, expensive appeals.
    
    I want to also make a comment.  I think it is alarming when you hear
    the number of people who step forward with "stories of their own". 
    There are a *lot* of wierdo's out there.  My ex-wife was sexually
    abused by her brother and his friends when she was very young.  She is
    very emotionally disturbed because of it now and it was ultimately the
    cause of our separation.  I have custody of my two children and I had a
    problem with my babysitter's son sexually abusing my 6 year old boy. 
    And now I start dating someone (who lives only two houses from me) and
    find out her daughter was sexually abused.  What's going on here!
    

    I think she needs to push back on her attorney and see if she has to
    abide by the OK ruling.  I would also tell him that unless he does
    something about this, NOW, she will take the case to another attorney.

    My mother use to work for an attorney in C/S, so if you need a lead on
    someone else, let me know and I'll see what she can do about a
    recommendation!
    
    I, personnally, would never let my child back with the father... but
    being an abused child myself, my outlook is very biased!!!!  VERY!!!
    
    Thoughts and hope,
    
    M-L

Child custody cases are now supposed to be legally binding across state lines.
This was to prevent the problem where a parent would lose custody in one
state then grab the child, move to another state, and start custody proceedings
there.

I'll send you mail with the name of an excellent lawyer.

       Carol

    This rings horribly true of a story on televison a year or so ago about
    a woman near DC who refused to give up custody of her child to an
    abusive father. I cannot remember if this crossed state lines.
    
    The real tragedy was that each appeal went before the same judge who
    had closed his mind that there was insufficient evidence that the
    father was abusive.  When she refused to give up the child, she went
    to jail for contempt of court.
    
    In the end, the mother and daughter ended up in New Zealand because
    state lines were insufficent.
    
    It was tragic.
    
    Stuart

    I remember the story that Stuart relates .... and I have to say that if
    he was convicted, and/or I was sure that he was guilty, that I'd
    certainly risk going to jail before I'd make my child be in that
    situation again!
    
    What is the age of the child in question?  I suppose that, if you
    wanted to get REAL nasty about this, you could wait until the child was
    with her father, and then make a phone call to the local child
    protection service, as an anonymous caller, stating that you had
    witnessed abuse - and hope that they remove the child from the
    situation.  
    
    I guess being in your situation, I would first want to determine if he
    really WAS guilty, or if perhaps he isn't and this is stemming from a
    difficult divorce??  Either way, if it were me, and I were convinced
    that this child's welfare and well-being is in jeopardy, that I'd do
    anything to prevent that situation.  
    
    Seek legal counsel - they can't really advise you to break the laws,
    but they can better inform you of the legal implications if you DO
    break the law.
    
    Good luck!

BCSE::WEIER "Patty, DTN 381-0877"                    23 lines   4-AUG-1993 10:35
    
>    What is the age of the child in question?  I suppose that, if you
>    wanted to get REAL nasty about this, you could wait until the child was
>    with her father, and then make a phone call to the local child
>    protection service, as an anonymous caller, stating that you had
>    witnessed abuse - and hope that they remove the child from the
>    situation.  
    
>    Seek legal counsel - they can't really advise you to break the laws,
    
    
    Your right, we'll leave that to you!

    Thanks for the comments.  I'm trying to get a feel for my friend's
    situation so that I can give her support.  It sounds like the only
    *legal* alternative she has is to try to keep the appeal process going
    until she can get some suitable resolution to the issue, but that will
    be very expensive.
    
    The child is 6 now.  She is old enough to understand that her dad did
    something wrong, but yet not old enough to fully understand what
    happened.  I guess it is a situation where there is no doubt in the
    mind of anyone involved in the investigation that the dad is guilty,
    but the only evidence is the testimony of the child (of course the dad
    denies it).  There was obviously sufficient evidence for the state of
    Colorado to take temporary protective juristiction while Oklahoma tried
    the case.  What I don't understand is why the Dept. of Social Services
    in Oklahoma refuses to get involved (they say they will not get
    involved because Colorado Social Services is involved).  There is a
    meeting today with Social Services.  I think they are considering
    taking the child into protective custody to prevent Oklahoma from
    forcing the visitation this weekend.  Anyways, thanks again for the
    comments.

I believe that the Department of Social Services in Colorado should be able
to set up an "Interstate Compact" with the Department of Human Services in
Oklahoma.  This would mean that DHS in OK would not be opening a new case
(which they can't really do without the child residing in that state) but
would become involved in the existing case instead.  They could work with
the father, and insure that he is getting whatever counseling or evaluations
have been ordered.  Also, if the child was going to visit for a longer time
(3 weeks minimum I think), then DHS would have to do a home study first, and
could monitor the child during the visit.  It might be worth asking the 
CO DSS worker about.

                                               Tracy

    Well, I guess I had my facts a little off.  This all makes a lot more
    sense now.  My friend's ex husband was tried and convicted by a jury
    trial in Colorado for non-criminal child abuse (Oklahoma did drop the
    charges).  This conviction served the purpose of allowing Colorado to
    place the child in protective juristiction of Colorado.  It was her ex
    who was appealing the conviction in Colorado that was recently decided
    on (in her ex's favor).  In the meeting yesterday, however, the judge
    holding the protective custody from the original trial felt he would be
    able to maintain that protection while my friend appeals to the state
    supreme court.  This will provide further short term protection for the
    child.
    
    Meanwhile, however, the child two days ago out of the clear blue sky
    decided she does not want to talk to or see her father again (you don't
    think children know what's going on?).  He counselor questioned her
    about this and, without any further prompting she restated in extreme,
    consistent detail what happened two years ago with her father *and*
    told more things that she has *never* mentioned before (of the type
    that a 6 year old could not make up).  So, hopefully, this will be
    damaging enough for her ex to end the issue.
    
    Some parents in earlier replies were concerned about what they can do
    to prevent this from happening to their children.  I don't think you
    can ever protect your children 100%, but if you talk to your children
    and look and listen, they will in their own way let you know if
    something is wrong.  I have not talked about my own experiences with my
    son, but when he was being abused (by a so called friend) he was
    threatened not to tell me, but he let me know that something was wrong
    by obsessively washing his hand around me until I asked him why he was
    doing it.

    Oxymoron of the day:
    
    
    "non-criminal child abuse"
    
    
    Grrrrrrrr
    Jamd
    >:-|
     

       Hi,
    
        I just want to add to .42 about how a parent can either protect or
    help a child that may somehow have sexual abuse or any abuse for
    that matter may happen.
    
        I'm speaking from my own experience as a child. I'm not sure when
    the actual abuse started taking place because I've lost a lot of my
    memories from before 8 years old. I have a few of other situations
    that didn't deal with sexual abuse , but abuse anyway. 
    
        I started having nightmares around 4 or 5 years old. I don't know
    if this had anything to do with sexual abuse , but the memories I
    do have are of an older brother he was around 12 or 13 at the time. He
    murdered my kitten and he also made my sister and me watch him kill
    pigeons. My sister and I packed a bag and my mother had to come running
    after us because we told her we were running away. We didn't want to
    see any more animals killed.
    
        When I was around 8 my god-parents started taking me more often
    to their house. I can remember one situation when I was 6 or 7 and
    my god-mother made me a dress but I don't remember being with her then.
    My god-father started sexually abusing me, I then started telling my
    mother that my god-father was a bad man and I didn't want to go over
    to their house. Unfortunately for me I didn't know any other words
    except "BAD" so I called him a bad man. My mother didn't listen or
    tune into what I meant. It continued for 4 more years until he ran
    away. I say he ran away because he did, he was confronted when I 
    was 12 because his step-son walked in on us, my god-father was 
    trying to pull me over to the couch while I held tight to the
    sewing machine and wouldn't go. The teenage stepson apparently 
    realized something was wrong because I was also confronted as
    to whether or not my god-father was molesting me. I said "NO!" and
    ran out the door.  The important thing about this that I want to
    share with parents is the way my mother did it. There was a large
    crowd of people in the house and she yelled at me when I walked in,
    "Is your god-father molesting you!!!!!!!!" That's why I said no and
    ran. She and the house full of people were too scarey for a 12 year
    old that was petrified of what could happen to her if she told.
    I went through 4 years of beatings from my mother because I fought
    to not have to go to my god-parents. I kept telling her he was a
    bad man , I hated him. I went through unbelievable torment in my
    efforts to tell my mother. I wrote suicide notes at 10. My mother's
    response was that if I ever wrote another suicide note I wouldn't
    have to kill myself she would do it for me. She would kill me. I
    finally gave up the writing because all it got me was more beatings
    and more abuse. I then took into hiding on my god-father when
    I knew he was coming to pick me up, I hid on the roof and waited for
    him to leave before I went home. I got a beating then but at least
    I was spared one day more of rape. 
    
         I'm not writing this because I want anyone to feel sorry for me.
    I also know that more than likely anyone reading this note probably
    wouldn't beat their kid if he or she wrote a suicide not. I out in
    the open more with this and I don't want to go back to it being a
    secret. I don't worry now that someone may use this against me, if
    they do then their the one with the problem. I just want to know 
    that even if one person read this and paid more attention to their
    child and saved the child from another's abuse then I've done
    something good.
    
         Take care, and I hope the best for people who love and care for
    others and do want to listen to and love their children.
    
        Rose
    
      p.s. sorry this is so long.
     

    Rose,
    
    I want to thank you for your incredible courage to tell us about your
    past.  The need to help others is wonderful, and I realize that you
    feel a lot of pain to tell and retell your situation.
    
    I admire you very much.
    
    judy

Oh Rose, I am so sorry that you had to go through these things !  It is so
sad and terrible what people can and will do to each other.  You're very
strong and courageous to work things through for yourself and talk about it
now.

But I wonder how one distinguishes the truth when confronted with situations
such as these, because if you're wrong on either side - not listening to or 
believing a person when he or she is communicating (or trying to) about real 
molestation and abuse, or doing just the opposite sort of thing and convicting
someone based on false testimony when they are really innocent.  It results 
in terrible, terrible injustices to somebody either way.  

I recently saw an excerpt on a program (maybe it was 20/20) about how children
can be convinced that something is the truth if they are asked about it long 
enough.  Did anyone else see this ?  Any thoughts about what the program
presented ?  To give a little more detail on the program:

There was some research done where, over time, children began to make up
stories that everyone knew were not true, just as a result of being asked
questions.  In one case, some film clips were shown of a little boy who was 
asked if he'd gotten his finger caught in a mouse trap.  The boy answered "No"
the first time.  A day or two later, someone asked the same question, the boy 
said "Yes".  A day or two later, he was asked about what happened when he got 
his finger caught in a mouse trap and he told an entire narrative about where 
the trap was, what he was doing when it happened, how his whole family took 
him to the hospital - Mom, Dad, and little brother or sister, but the "baby" 
stayed home with a babysitter and didn't come.  Very detailed - and none of 
it had happened.  They showed a similar type event where they used a Dr's 
visit, and then an anatomical doll to ask the child about what had happened 
at the Dr's.  During the exam, as part of the research, the Dr. touched a 
small dowel or other round stick like object to the base of the child's heel.
After a couple of sessions with the doll, with no suggestions from the 
researcher as to what had happened, just non-leading questions, the child 
was showing, using the doll, how the Dr. had poked a stick up into her.

Anyway, its gotten to the point anymore, where it seems very difficult to know
whom to believe in any given situation.  Because of society in general's great
appetite for sensationalism, and the willingness and eagerness of the media to
supply it, I don't know if I can even trust an article or show such as the one
above to be giving the unbiased, absolute truth, or using set up situations to
bend or distort what actually happened.

Leslie

       Thanks ,
    
       .46 I didn't watch the show. But, I think children are very 
    vulnerable and easily confused. In my situation my mother confronted
    me in a house full of people so I ran. I don't know what would have
    happened if she took me aside and gently talk to me, I know the 
    situation would have been entirely different.
    
       I can remember being totally confused back then , still am on
    occasion. My god-father laid a lot of threats on me. He would put
    me in jail, he would hurt my sisters, he would do things to prove
    to me how bad it could get. 
    
       I think though that it is a messy situation on either side. I'm
    sure if a child is tricked or convinced the child could believe the
    unreal, as a matter of fact they can believe the unreal, I believed
    I would be thrown in jail. An adult needs to be careful on how
    they question children. But, on the other hand if a child is saying
    "I hate so-and-so , he's a bad man." Then there's a need to try
    to talk to the child and find out why that child say's so-and-so
    is a bad man. If a child has nightmares, runs away, hides, get's
    hysterical when certain persons touch them, writes suicide notes,
    then there is something wrong. I personally can't understand why
    people (this show) would deliberately confuse children to prove
    that children can be manipulated. It only brings us back to 
    a era where children are to be seen and not heard, children are
    born liars, children have to obey adults at all cost to the child.
    
       This program also makes me feel that my story could have been
    made up by me as a child and now that I'm an adult maybe it didn't 
    happen and I believe it did because I made it up and now it's true.
    I don't think I like this. I feel sorry for people that are 
    wrongly accused of this horrible thing because it could certainly
    ruin a persons life if the person was wrongly accused. I know if
    I heard a neighor was accused of this I certainly wouldn't want
    any part of that neighbor, I certainly wouldn't want children near
    that person.
    
        I personally find it hard to believe that children that are
    healthy, happy, loved by their parents would conjure up something
    so terrible. Something has to be terribly wrong for a child to
    make up a lie like that. This is my view, I'm sure there can be
    situations where it seems like everything is being done right by the
    child and things go haywire, anything's possible
    
         Take care,
    
       Rose Marchand
         Rose Marchand
    

I know its hard.  Don't let my description of this one program cause you 
to doubt yourself in this instance.  I was thinking more from the point 
of a judge who is presented with a case - they don't personally know the 
people on either side of the case.  How do you determine what is the real 
truth if both are giving different stories and there is nothing else to 
verify what either one says ?  

Here is a story of a situation I was involved in.  I'm a little hesitant
actually to put it in here, but will do so for the purpose of illustrating
the dilemna that I am trying to describe about how to determine the real 
facts of an event that you were not there to see.

This happened during my second summer with my stepson visiting.  He was 
about 7 or 8 years old, and we had him in a Y summer program for kids that 
was held a local school.  Usually the kids were playing in the gym when I
came to pick up my stepson.  This day was no different, and I saw him 
playing basketball with a couple of other young boys, but before I had 
walked all the way over to him to get his attention, a man who was one of
the Y employees that worked in this particular program intercepted me, and 
began, very excitably, to tell me how my son owed him an apology.  

I was very surprised at being so intensely accosted by this person, and asked 
him what he was talking about.  He told me that the children had been told they
could not go to the coke or candy machines at some certain time (I've forgotten
the details about this), and that my stepson had insisted on hanging around 
the machines, and did not move when asked to move, and so he'd taken "Jason" 
by the shoulders to move him, and Jason had immediately crumpled up in a heap
and started yelling and crying that the man had hit in the stomach.  The 
fellow told me that he had done absolutely nothing like that, and that it was 
very bad of Jason to lie like this.  

I went over to talk to my stepson and get his side of the story.  What I 
couldn't believe was that this man followed us, and stood very, very close 
so that I felt I couldn't talk to Jason in any way that was going to be a
helpful, honest discussion.  My stepson took one look at the fellow, threw 
his arms around me, buried his face on my chest and cried, just heaving
and sobbing, and holding tight.

I just held him, and hugged him, and told him everything was going to be okay.
Then I turned the man, and told him that I would have to get Jason's side of 
the story first, after Jason calmed down, so could he please leave us alone.  
So he left.  I could see that it was going to be awhile before I would be able
to talk about the incident with the boy, so we simply went to the car after 
signing out, and left.  In the car, I couldn't get him talk about it, all he
kept doing was asking that I not tell his dad.  I told Jason that we couldn't
just ignore it, but that we needed to hear his side of the story as well, and
that we would listen carefully to what he said as well.

We were meeting for dinner at a restaurant on the way home that night, and
I waited until after dinner and we were in the car to bring the subject again.
It is so hard, when you're not around the child all the time and when you
don't know the other person.  We sat in the parking lot for a long time, slowly
trying to get Jason's version of what happened.  It was very difficult.  He
finally told us that he had been looking at the coke/candy machines, but wasn't
planning on going to them or getting anything, and that he hadn't heard 
the man ask him to move away, and that the man had surprised and scared him
when he'd grabbed him by the shoulders, and that's why he had cried.  We
asked if the man had hit him and Jason said no, but he also said that he had 
never claimed the man had punched him, and that the fellow had lied when 
he said this.

Now I personally found this man intimidating, and was hoping that my husband
would be able to talk to the Y people in the morning when he dropped my
step-son off.  But in the morning, everyone was pretty occupied with all the
arriving children, and my husband wasn't able to talk to them.  So, in the 
afternoon, it was me who had to confront the guy again and talk to him about 
this.  I felt very uptight and shaky, and wished I was better at handling
this type of thing.  He asked me if I'd "had a talk with my son" and how Jason
was doing, not as excited as the day before, but still in a way that I found 
intimidating.  I said my husband and talked to Jason and then discussed it, 
and decided that he owed Jason an apology as well, that he'd surprised and 
scared him.  The fellow backed down, and said something about how he had 
talked to the senior person in charge this morning, and she'd told him that 
how "extremely sensitive" Jason was, and that he and Jason gotten along very 
well that day.  

I was still very unsure about what had happened.  Jason isn't always truthful,
but he usually does not make up things to smear other people.  He is sensitive,
but I wouldn't say he was _extremely_ sensitive.  I could well understand how 
this man's very strong personality and aggresive ways could be overwhelming 
for my stepson.   But I felt very uneasy about the whole situation, and wasn't
sure I could trust this fellow.  We didn't push it any further though, because
that was Jason's last day there for the summer anyhow.  If it had been earlier,
we would have insisted on talking to the senior person and working through
what had happened.  But its always left a troubling question in my mind about 
what really happened, were we remiss in the way we handled it.  

We did have a lot of other conversation with Jason that I haven't described 
above, about how he could be truthful with us, and that we weren't going to 
punish him just because another grownup said he'd done wrong, but that we 
would listen to both sides, try to arrive at the truth, and be fair in the 
way we handled things.  That we loved him no matter what.  And that it was 
important to be obedient and mindful when asked to do things like stay away 
from the coke and candy machines.    

Leslie

>>    ................... But, on the other hand if a child is saying
>>    "I hate so-and-so , he's a bad man." Then there's a need to try
>>    to talk to the child and find out why that child say's so-and-so
>>    is a bad man. If a child has nightmares, runs away, hides, get's
>>    hysterical when certain persons touch them, writes suicide notes,
>>    then there is something wrong. 

I do agree completely with this.

>>    I personally can't understand why people (this show) would deliberately 
>>    confuse children to prove that children can be manipulated. It only 
>>    brings us back to a era where children are to be seen and not heard, 
>>    children are born liars, children have to obey adults at all cost to 
>>    the child.
    
>>    I feel sorry for people that are wrongly accused of this horrible thing 
>>    because it could certainly ruin a persons life if the person was wrongly
>>    accused. I know if I heard a neighor was accused of this I certainly 
>>    wouldn't want any part of that neighbor, I certainly wouldn't want 
>>    children near that person.
    
      First of all, your second paragraph is the reason the research is being 
      done.  There are a great number of cases of child abuse and molestation 
      being tried now.  Since there is sometimes no way to verify anything, 
      "experts" are brought in to offer their opinions on the child's 
      truthfullness, or to interview the children in a "non-leading" way.  
      I don't think the attempt is to bring back an era where children are not
      heard or protected, but to be careful not let the pendulum swing too far
      the other way.  Secondly, I don't think the show wasn't conducting the 
      research, but were reporting on research that had been done by social 
      scientists and psychologists.
      
>>    I personally find it hard to believe that children that are
>>    healthy, happy, loved by their parents would conjure up something
>>    so terrible. Something has to be terribly wrong for a child to
>>    make up a lie like that. This is my view, I'm sure there can be
>>    situations where it seems like everything is being done right by the
>>    child and things go haywire, anything's possible
    
      Some of these abuse cases involve situations where the children's
      parents are "at war" with one another - divorce case custody battles.
      Unfortunately, the children are often used as pawns, not always 
      for the sake of the children, but to hurt or injure a soon to be
      ex-spouse.  In these situations, it may be very possible for a child
      to become confused and vulnerable to even unconcious manipulation by
      one parent or the other.  A sort of example is the case between Mia 
      Farrow and Woody Allen that was making the news awhile back.

      Other times, a child may get angry with someone about something, and
      know that such an accusation is an easy way to get back at the person.
      I don't think that a child always understands all the ramifications
      of what they say, and the kind of affect it may have.

Abuse is horrible and we need protect children, and the people who do such
terrible things must be stopped and punished as well.  But could we create
our own witch trials if we're not careful ?  Unfortunately, I don't know 
the answers; at this point, I can only ask the questions.

Leslie

Just a random comment, from my own training as a children's help-line 
volunteer: it seems there are NO documented cases of children (as 
opposed to adolescents, I think) making up stories of physical or 
sexual abuse.  

Seems to me that the fact of a child's getting confused about events 
much less stressful than abuse can't be used as evidence concerning 
whether they're always truthful about abuse.

So overall it looks as though the only safe way for an adult to behave 
is ALWAYS to believe a child's report of abuse.

    
        Hi,
    
       I wasn't upset about the reply about the show. I realize you were
    just trying to understand the possibility. It would be so nice if 
    there was an answer to every question and a solution to every problem.
    
       To the situation about Jason. I believe the child. I also believe
    this adult may have been looking to hurt this child. If you felt 
    uncomfortable about the man, the child seemed petrified of him,
    I would not allow this man around this child. Petifiles (He may
    not be one) test out the children they can abuse. He knows your
    step-son is overly sensitive, everyone else knows that and he could
    use that to manipulate the child. He may even know that the child
    wouldn't want his father to know. This child needs a close parent
    to talk to him and assure him that he needs to talk. I feel that
    you handled the situation wonderfully. Especially for the child.
    The fact that you told this man you wanted to talk to the child
    privately to listen to his side showed the man he wouldn't be 
    able to hurt this child. He may very well be a "BAD man". Sad
    to say but these perpertrators of children seek out jobs to
    be with children. 
    
    
        Rose 
    
      P.s. I'm not upset about the program but it did worry me a bit. But
           the replies helped me.
    

Regarding:  false convictions
	    divorces

I believe that watching a show on false convictions for sexual abuse can give
people false *impressions*.  The *vast* majority of sexual abuse cases 
*never* get taken to a trial.  They screen so heavily in favor of the accused
adult that it makes it extremely difficult to get protection for an abused
child.  Even then, you often have no more than the child's word versus that 
of the adult, and so there are few convictions even with those which have
gone to trial.  

As for false accusations, there are some, as there are with false accusations
of theft and other crimes.  Because it is a child who was the victim, though,
people (read: adults) doubt more and believe less.  Although teens may have
enough sexual experience to know how to describe a sexual experience which
never happened, younger children do not.  If a younger child describes an
experience of sexual abuse, they are often giving details that they should
not normally have been exposed to at that age, and which *may* be even out of
the ordinary for the average adult of our culture.  These are *big* indications
that the child is telling you of something which has really happened.  Remember,
though, teens and other older children can be abused, too.  Women, men, boys,
and girls can be raped.  *Whenever* a child tells you, as a trusted adult,
that they don't want to be with a person, especially if they tell you of 
actions which may be sexual in nature, it is important that you listen to
the child and respect what they are telling you.  It may be a matter of life
and death to them, though they may not know how to express it as yet.

It is more important to protect the child, than to keep from hurting the
feelings of the person who is accused.  If you don't feel you have enough 
information to know whether your child was abused, at *least* keep the child
away from the person/situation.

As for divorce and/or custody cases, though it may be true that *some* parents
will bring up a false accusation of abuse at that time, it is more likely true
that the abuse is real.  For instance, in the case of a father abusing his
child, sometimes the child will only tell the mother about it when the
child is faced with the possibility of having to live with the father.
If a judge is considering ruling in favor of the father, or for joint custody,
the mother may have to bring up the abuse in order to protect the child.

It is also sometimes the case where the non-abusing parent has known about
the abuse for some time.  This may or may not be the reason for the divorce.
However, this parent may have previously decided not to press charges in order
to protect the child from the police questioning and from the ordeal of the
trial (which can be *extremely* hard on the child, especially when so many
people would rather believe the adult).  Again, it may become necessary to
bring up the abuse during the custody fight in order to protect the child.

In summary, this is a request to please give the child the benefit of the
doubt.  It takes a lot of courage for a child to speak up against the actions
of an adult.  Children are usually taught not to question adults, and they
certainly know that we have much more power than they do.  Their very lives
depend on us, and they may even have had those lives threatened by their
abuser(s), either explicitly ("I'll kill you if you tell") or implicitly 
(killing or hurting the child's pet or another animal).  They also do not know
the "rules" around abuse; they think that they are at fault because somehow
they "allowed" it to happen.  By telling on the adult, they expect to get
in trouble, too, and they are frightened.

      Carol

>                           -< Believe the Children >-

Yes... and no ...

Many cases of sexual abuse fail before they get to court.

The reason is becasue of "leading and coaching".

All too often when a child describes what happened, the adult listening to
it will try to paint a clear picture in his or her own mind by asking
"do you mean that <describe event in adult terms>".

When this happens, the child's story will often change to more closely match 
what the adult redescribed ... and this may not match what actually occured.
The longer between the incident and the court date, the more likely the
story will fall in line with an adult's description.  This is why for
the longest time, children have usually been described as unreliable
witnesses and their testimony not accepted.

So many instances failed when they reached court for this reason, that
they are often thrown out by the time they do reach court.

So, as a parent, what you must do is yes, listen to the child, but DON'T
prompt the child if you ever want a HOPE of it getting anywere in a court.

Stuart

    If you were a parent of a child who reported abuse and you were in
    doubt, what would you do?
    
    If there is 1 eensy winsy chance that the child is correct in his or
    her allegations, you have no options, do you?
    
     

    .54
    
         If I were the mother, I would definately seek the assistance of
    a pyschologist trained in child pyschology. I would talk to the child's
    teacher and ask questions on how the child is doing in school. If the
    child normally got along with other children, then suddenly started
    potraying strange behavior there a possible chance something has
    changed for the worse in the child's life.
    
         I know of a woman that her daughter's teacher called her to the
    school and told her that her child was withdrawn and seemed to be 
    very depressed. She had to practically force the child (the child
    was 11 at the time) to participate. She had to help the child take
    off her coat. The child mostly looked at the floor most of the time.
    Well, to make a long horrible story short, the child was (child was
    taken to hospital and there was physical evidence of perpertration
    not only in the vagina, but also in the anal area) being sexually
    abused by the stepfather. There were many signs. The mother would
    go home and there was blood on the child's clothes. The man would
    immediately say that she had another one of her bloody noses. The 
    child never had bloody noses before the woman met the man.
    
        She started having nightmares. She became a cling-on to her 
    mother when the mother was around. 
    
        So, even if a child doesn't come out and say "I've been abused."
    There could be a lot of evidence towards it. So if a child says "I've
    been abused." Then look at the whole picture. Look at the interaction
    of child and accused abuser. When my god-father was abusing me he
    was my parents best friend. He kept an eye on me and defended himself
    immediately when I would tell my mother, in front of him, that I hated
    him.  Oh she's just a kid. He would do the typical she's a child
    bit.
    
        Rose Marchand
    

    Oh my.  I have read long past theend of my lunch to try and get to the
    end of this; there is no end, but only our continuing attempts to end
    the abuse.
    
    What are these books for children?  Titles would be very helpful...our
    children have to go out to the world and be protected by many others
    besides us, and I need to prepare them without scaring them.
    
    Oh my.
    
    Thanks,
    Adrienne
    

    re .50 "There are NO documented cases of children making up stories of
    physical or sexual abuse".
    
    I suppose the key word here is DOCUMENTED.  But, COME ON, are you trying
    to say that NO kids EVER make up stories about physical or sexual
    abuse?  EVER?!  Is ANYTHING ever except death and taxes?
    
    I can believe the word RARELY, but EVER is a bit of a stretch. It flies
    in the face of common sense doesn't it?
    
    However, I do agree that a parent should assume the child is telling
    the truth on these issues and investigate accordingly.
    
    Carol: "Its more important to protect the child, than to keep from
    hurting the feelings of the person who is accused".  There is alot more
    involved here than simply 'hurting the feelings of the person accused'.
    In fact, the destruction of a persons life may be involved... even if
    the accusation is FALSE!  So, as a parent I would be reasonably certain
    the accusations had merit before plunging into the possible destruction
    of another persons life.  Protecting the kids is one thing, a witch
    hunt is quite another.
    
    Also: All of the comments in this string have revolved around the
    assumtion that the abuser is a man.  I dare say that if this discussion
    was always using she many women would protest the sexist statements.
    Please, all abusers are NOT men, and as a man I don't like the
    association.
    
    Jeff

    There are cases of documented abuse stories that weren't true.  Good
    Housekeeping ran a story about this about one year ago (I gave the
    magazine to my mother).  There is an organization formed around this.  
    
    Basically what happened was that this female teacher was accused by a
    two year old of sexually abusing her, then that mother got talking with
    all the other mothers and then all the kids started saying that they
    were being abused - some she really didn't have contact with.  The case
    went to court, all sorts of professionals were brought in and low and
    behold she had NEVER abused anyone - the article goes into great detail
    how this was proved as opposed to she "won" because it couldn't "be
    proved."
    
    The upshot - Not hurt feelings.  Because this whole episode tainted her
    reputation and name.  She has since 1) had to move to a new location
    over a 1000 miles away 2) Legally change her name 3) Have her records
    cleared so that she could find employment again as a teacher.  (I'm
    curious how you get your college transcripts transfered in under a new
    name, if one can do that to send to a new place of employment.)  She
    then found an organization where there were quite a few others that
    have been through the same thing with this and were rendered
    unemployable and were in danger from vigilante acts from the community.
    
    Before anyone jumps on me about not being being sympathetic - my nephew
    was sexually abused by another man repeatedly when he was 2 (by the
    oldest son in the babysitters family and my S-I-L's landlord - talk
    about messy - with anal penetration).  So I'm sympathetic - but as an
    adult I'm also sympathetic  about other adults being falsely accused. 
    For example, my husband and I teach Sunday School as a team  but he
    won't be alone with the girls AT ALL.  One day at the Christmas Play 
    one of the little girls wanted her long sweat pants under her dress 
    taken off and asked him.  He broke out in a sweat!  He wouldn't do it 
    because he was afraid of being accused of something and he was
    surrounded with only little kids.  Fortunatley one of the 12 year old
    girls came along and he had her take off the little girls pants in a
    room away from him.  He also won't be alone with little kids of our
    friends - and you know what - he isn't the only male I know that's
    afraid of being falsely accused.  There's a topic on this in Mens Notes
    being 

    I too have personal experience with having been an abuse victim. Why is
    it that raising the points the prior noter and I have about the
    potential for the destruction of an adults life (false accusation),
    tends to make other adults see us as possibly unsympathetic?  Where is
    the sympathy for the falsely accused?  Society as a whole is on such an
    emotional ride over this abuse issue that often we don't stop to think
    about the implications of possible false accusations.  People are NOT
    effectively protected by 'the system' against false accusation. Just
    the SUSPICION of child abuse can be enough to wreck ones' career or
    worse.  I too 'think twice' before being alone with children, lest
    someone accuse me of abuse.  What is happening to us, that we (adults)
    must worry about innocent involvement with children?  Most of the
    noters in this string are, I believe, women.  Women are NOT under the
    cloud of suspicion the way men are.  People ASSUME men abuse, but NOT
    women.  I call that prejudice.  I do agree that more men than women 
    are abusers though, so I can see where the assumptions come from.
    
    Not to get me wrong: Abuse is wrong and horribly destructive 
    to children and must be stopped as best we can stop it.
    
    But I did want to raise some of the points I have raised because I see
    people talking in such absolutes in this string.
    
    Jeff
    
    
    worse.
    

>    Why is
>    it that raising the points the prior noter and I have about the
>    potential for the destruction of an adults life (false accusation),
>    tends to make other adults see us as possibly unsympathetic?  

Jeff, who has said anything about being unsympathetic?  There has only been 
one reply (other than yours) and it supported your point that false 
accusations are sometimes made.

>    Women are NOT under the cloud of suspicion the way men are.  People 
>    ASSUME men abuse, but NOT women.

I'm sure that the WOMAN discussed in .58 feels comfortable that, as a woman, 
people will not assume that she will abuse.  I sure as hell don't feel under 
a cloud of suspicion just because I'm a man.  To say that there is a tendency 
to assume that all abusers are men, is FAR DIFFERENT than saying that all 
(or even most) men are abusers.  There is also an (incorrect) assumption that 
prostitutes are women.  Does that mean that all women are under a cloud of 
suspicion that they are prostitutes?  I can't say that I've ever been denied 
an opportunity to do something that I've wanted to do because of an 
assumption that abusers are men.

>    All of the comments in this string have revolved around the assumtion
>    that the abuser is a man.  I dare say that if this discussion was 
>    always using she many women would protest the sexist statements.
>    Please, all abusers are NOT men, and as a man I don't like the    
>    association.

The note that started this string was a story of abuse by an 13 year old 
FEMALE.  There have been many personal or anecdotal statements about abuse in 
here.   In most of the cases, the abuser WAS a man.  There was no ASSUMPTION 
that the abuser was a man.

And FWIW, it isn't only men that are involved in precautions.  A couple of 
summers ago, my daughter went to Girl Scout Camp.  I was talking with one of 
the CIT's (counselors in training), and she said that CIT's were not allowed 
to be alone with a camper.  I didn't ask her why, but I assume that the 
possibilty of abuse, or being accused of abuse, was one of the reasons.

Clay

    Someone wrote the basenote about abuse that happened. Whoever it was
    must have meant to enlighten or maybe just to elicit support.
    
    If your child died of a cancer I would not complain to you about too
    much money going to cancer research and none to diabetes. Please have
    a heart!
    
    Kate  

    Clay, your right. No one has been unsympathetic since I wrote my
    earlier reply.  I jumped to a conclusion on that one.
    
    Girl Scouts etc.:  I was not aware of the restrictions placed on
    counselors in the Girl Scouts.  
    
    And, yes, even though most abusers are men it does not mean that all
    men are abusers.  BUT you have to admit that if abuse is mentioned most
    people will assume that its a man rather than a woman who committed it.
    i.e. "A guy, that man, a man, etc etc." which is how the text
    usually reads even though the writer doesn't KNOW what sex the abuser
    was.  Ok, so thats the way it is.  But I did want to point it out.
    
    False accusation regarding child abuse is SERIOUS business.  It may be
    rare to be falsely accused, but if you are, hold on to your hat because
    your likely to have the ride of your life.
    
    I am not unsympathetic to the base noter. Sorry, I got off on a
    tangent.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    This past summer my son was at a YMCA camp.  One of the daily
    activities is swimming.  The kids go to their cabins to change and are
    escorted to the swimming area.  After the first day, my 6 year old said
    he didn't want to swim anymore.  Now this kid is a fish.  I knew
    something had to be off base.  We talked quite a bit and I found out
    that his cabin had a female CIT (councelor in training), and being as
    extremely modest as he is, he detested having to change with a teen
    aged girl in the room.  I called the camp the next day and told them I
    felt it was inappropriate for a teen female to be in a room with a
    group of young boys.  I felt it would be more appropriate for any adult
    to stand outside the cabin in case they are needed, but boys that age
    could easily dress themselves.  The person I talked to said she would
    tell the director my concerns.  I asked my son later if he liked
    swimming and he replied that he loves it and goes every day.  
    
    I think it's important for young people in this situation to understand
    that the world is changing and they need to protect themselves the best
    they can (this goes for CITs and children alike).
    
    -sandy
    

>    . . . his cabin had a female CIT (councelor in training), and being as
>    extremely modest as he is, he detested having to change with a teen
>    aged girl in the room. 

Wow.  "Inappropriate" is a mild term.  That's incredibly insensitive and 
extremely stupid.

And Jeff, before your blood pressure rises too much :^)  one has to wonder if 
they would have a teen aged boy in a room while a group of six year old girls 
are changing into their bathing suits.

Clay

    My blood pressure rising, why, because I get upset at what I perceive
    as injustices?  I wasn't the one who introduced the inappropriate 
    changing situations.
    
    I certainly can understand the six year olds' reluctance to change
    under those conditions.  Some kids would care less... but others!
    
    Its was my experience as a boy that males are considered relatively
    indifferent to lack of privacy, whereas females are assume to want
    privacy. Examples abounded in my younger years ranging from the lack
    of particians in bathrooms to the assumptions that males being
    'tougher' than females wouldn't mind.
    
    Don't give me examples showing me thats its not true.  I know its not
    true, I am relating my perception of societies expectations when I was
    younger.
    
    Jeff
    

Jeff, if you thought I was poking fun at you, I'm sorry.

I thought that this was a clear example of sexism in which boys were the 
victim.  My question about 6 year old girls and a male teenage counselor was 
a rhetorical question.  While I recognize that I am making an assumption, 
there is little doubt in my mind that no organization would even consider 
allowing that situation.

While I agree that boys are brought up to be less conscious of privacy, I 
think this case is different.  Undressing with a bunch of other boys the same 
age is a lot different than undressing in front of an older person of the 
opposite sex.

Clay

    Clay,  I agree, there is a big difference between same sex peers
    changing in front of one another than changing in front of non peers
    of the opposite sex.
    
    No sweat on my assumption you were poking fun at me.
    
    Jeff
    

    Not to imply that all kids lie, so please don't anyone flame on.  But
    this morning on National Public Radio, they announced the dropping of
    charges against a  Ugandan (sp?) from either Lowell or Lawrence that a
    seven year old girl had accused of being raped by a few months ago. 
    Apparently this mess has been going for a while and the girl *was*
    raped by someone else (the NPR story didn't go into that) but this 
    guy had nothing to do with it whatsoever.  But just hours before the 
    trial was to start in the courtroom (yesterday I think), she announced 
    that she had lied about this guy.  I wish the radio had gone into her
    motives for lying about him or a few other details.  Does anyone living
    in the Lawrence/Lowell area know about these charges?
    
    I'm sure the little girl has major problems, but unfortunately this
    Ugandan has "had the ride of his life."

    Well, there are two examples of kids lying about abuse.
    
    In spite of my claims that some kids do lie about being abused I do
    believe it is the exception.
    
    I am sure that the man mentioned in the prior entry was more than
    embarassed.  I hope he recovers from it emotionally.
    
    Jeff

re .68:

According to the article in today's Globe, she claimed at the time that a
black man raped her.  The Ugandan happened to be in the Woburn neighborhood
where she was raped.  On Friday the victim admitted that she was raped by
someone else, someone she knew.